Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Dan Everett <kender@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:27:03 -0500
Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:00:43 GMT
Dan Everett writes

> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
I would check the description of muscle augmentation and the various
notes about the compatability of different things in SR2, shadowtech
and cybertechnology. I am 95% certain that you cannot do this, sorry
but i cannot remember any longer where the rules about it are.
Generally (i think in Shadowtech - it would be logical) it is stated
that bioware and cyberware that do the same thing cannot be added, eg
no wired reflexes plus synaptic accelerator (move by wire in
cybertechnology is an explicit exception to this rule). Magic and
cyber are also generally incompatible unless using 'enhance
cybered...' spells. Magic and bioware got pretty much overlooked by
FASA in the books and GM's opinions vary grately based on what they
think or feel like letting you get away with.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: "Pulla, Stefanie" <PULLAS@********.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:20:37 EDT
> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?

No!!!
Not compatible.

Stefanie

GCv3.1 GAT/G! d++(---) h+++ au+ C+$>++++ U---
W+ N+ w+ o-- M- !PS !PE Y-- PGP- t+ 5++ X+ R+++
tv- b++(+++)@ D+ e+++ x?
Message no. 4
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:59:52 +1000
> > Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> > Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> > Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> > and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
> No!!!
> Not compatible.
>

Depends on who you talk to; Opinion is divided on the list, and there
was a recent thread concerning this very possibility. Apparently there
isn't anything specifically stated in the rules that you can't, but the
majority of GM's tend not to allow it anyway.

(Imagine a troll with +8 Strength)

Marty
Message no. 5
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:04:14 -0400
On Fri, 23 May 1997, Dan Everett wrote:

> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>

NEVER! They are not cumulative.

Dust
Message no. 6
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:23:57 EDT
On Fri, 23 May 1997 14:27:03 -0500 Dan Everett <kender@********.ATT.NET>
writes:
<<Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before Muscle
Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can Muscle
Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature and if
so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?>>


A good question, especially since I don't recall if we managed upon a
decision last time it was brought up. I don't see any reason that it
cannot, I don't recall Shadowtech saying anything against it...let me
check <going up to get book> In fact..."Both boiware and cyberware can be
integrated within the same body." Admittedly, this does nothing to
determine whether or not the two items are compatible, only that one
person can have both installed. Best thing you can do is make your own
decision. Read over the descriptions of both, and decide.

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 7
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:37:40 EDT
On Fri, 23 May 1997 09:04:14 -0400 Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
writes:
>On Fri, 23 May 1997, Dan Everett wrote:
>
>> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
>> Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets.
Can
>> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic
musculature
>> and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>>
>
> NEVER! They are not cumulative.

Actually, that's not stated anywhere. There is nothing by the book to
deny the usage of Muscle Aug and Muscle Replacement in this way, unless
it appears in Cybertechnology (which I doubt).

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 8
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:03:04 -0400
Greetings!!!

It is never stated that Muscle Aug and Muscle Replacement are incompadible,
but it is heavily implied. In Shadowtech, it is stated that the process of
muscle replacement evolved to muscle augmentation, making the repacement
process obsolete an unneccessary.

Technically, by 2056 muscle replacement should no longer be available.

IMHO, you could have one, but not both. The newest version is better since it
adds to your reaction.

-Bandit

"At my lemonade stand I used to give the first glass away free and charge
five dollars for the second glass. The refill contained the antidote."
Message no. 9
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:23:11 -0400
> > Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> > Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets.
Can
> > Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> > and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
> No!!!
> Not compatible.

Ummm ... try again.
No rules say so emphatically.
We've covered this ground before, and essentially it boils down to a GM
decision.
Personally, I allow it, as there are a LOT of muscles in the human body ...
some could be aug'd and some could be replaced IMO.
YMMV.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I'm telling ya Bull ... you two would make a cute couple! ;-) (You know
who I mean!)"
Message no. 10
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:08:22 -0700
---Dan Everett wrote:
>
> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets.
Can
> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic
musculature
> and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?

The books don't say in B&W, so it'll come down to a GM's judgement
call or house rule.

I would probably say no on principle. It would really depend on the
character and case. Is it just for munchkin purposes?

Also, keep in mind that the character is blowing out 4 points of
essence and 3.2 body index just to do this. Eeesh!

===
@>--,--'--- Loki

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 11
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:28:58 +0100
> Ummm ... try again.
> No rules say so emphatically.
> We've covered this ground before, and essentially it boils down to a GM
> decision.
> Personally, I allow it, as there are a LOT of muscles in the human body ...
> some could be aug'd and some could be replaced IMO.
> YMMV.
>
> Steven A. Tinner

To make full use of eather augmentation, all muscles have to be
augmented or replaced... so if you use the bioware on half of them
and the cyberware on the other half, you should only get half the
bonus... from each...

ss
Message no. 12
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:43:19 -0400
> To make full use of eather augmentation, all muscles have to be
> augmented or replaced... so if you use the bioware on half of them
> and the cyberware on the other half, you should only get half the
> bonus... from each...

This is not from any of the SR books.
The other explanation I have for it is that first you have the aug done,
and add more muscle mass, then have that much mass replaced, allowing for
the double bonus.

But this is just beating a dead horse.
In my world it works.
What you do in your world, is your business. :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I'm telling ya Bull ... you two would make a cute couple! ;-) (You know
who I mean!)"
Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:42:37 -0700
| Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
| Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
| Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
| and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?

We have always taken the fact that shadowtech didn't state that you can't
mix them to mean that you can. You are still looking at four points of
essence and 3.2 points of body index (I think), and a buttload (technical
term) of Nuyen.


-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."
Message no. 14
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:10:58 -0700
| A good question, especially since I don't recall if we managed upon a
| decision last time it was brought up. I don't see any reason that it
| cannot, I don't recall Shadowtech saying anything against it...let me
| check <going up to get book> In fact..."Both boiware and cyberware can be
| integrated within the same body." Admittedly, this does nothing to
| determine whether or not the two items are compatible, only that one
| person can have both installed. Best thing you can do is make your own
| decision. Read over the descriptions of both, and decide.

I remember having this discussion and our group, and we used the synaptic
accelerator as an example because it specifically states that it cannot be
combined with wired or boosted reflexes (it does help riggers alot though
:) muscle aug. does not say that it cannot be combined, and since muscle
replacement does not add to reaction (the attribute everyone seems to want)
we allow it. Sure you can have a troll with a strength of 18
theoretically, maybe higher if you work it, but he is gonna be so broke
that he will still be slower than molasses in january, and as we all know
FA shotguns will still shred him. =)

-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:15:40 -0700
| It is never stated that Muscle Aug and Muscle Replacement are
incompadible,
| but it is heavily implied. In Shadowtech, it is stated that the process
of
| muscle replacement evolved to muscle augmentation, making the repacement
| process obsolete an unneccessary.

We look at it this way...you replace the old flabby muscles :) with new
stringer ones, then you augment those improved muscles.

| Technically, by 2056 muscle replacement should no longer be available.

I wouldn't go that far...they are IIRC much cheaper therefore will still be
popular among ppl who don't need speed.

| IMHO, you could have one, but not both. The newest version is better
since it
| adds to your reaction.

True. See above.

| "At my lemonade stand I used to give the first glass away free and charge
| five dollars for the second glass. The refill contained the antidote."

=) Nice .sig very shadowrunny

-Caric

"I was NAKED!!!!!!!!!!!"
-Blackjack our Racoon Shaman when asked why he ran away from one
particular fight."
Message no. 16
From: andre eibel <eibel.andre@**.COMCITY.DE>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:39:22 -0500
Am 23-Mai-97 schrieb Dan Everett:

>Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
>Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
>Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
>and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?

Not an easy question
I would say no because MR replaceses existing muscles and MA adds to existing
muscles
if its enough left from the original stuff.
The other way MA before MR is in my group allowed.
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 17
From: andre eibel <eibel.andre@**.COMCITY.DE>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 19:52:25 -0500
Am 23-Mai-97 schrieb MARTIN E. GOTTHARD:

>> > Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
>> > Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
>> > Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
>> > and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>>
>> No!!!
>> Not compatible.
>>

>Depends on who you talk to; Opinion is divided on the list, and there
>was a recent thread concerning this very possibility. Apparently there
>isn't anything specifically stated in the rules that you can't, but the
>majority of GM's tend not to allow it anyway.

>(Imagine a troll with +8 Strength)

>Marty

And with Magical strenght +4 too
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 18
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:27:13 -0700
Loki (my GM) contradicted:


| I would probably say no on principle. It would really depend on the
| character and case. Is it just for munchkin purposes?
|
| Also, keep in mind that the character is blowing out 4 points of
| essence and 3.2 body index just to do this. Eeesh!

Whatdaya mean NO?!?!?!? We've had been doin' it since day one. Well I
haven't, but you know who has...starts with an L ends with an N and has oga
in the middle.

-Caric
"SPOON!!!!!!!!!"
-The Tick
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:09:46 +0100
Pulla, Stefanie said on 8:20/23 May 97...

Haven't I seen you before somewhere? :)

> > Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> > Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> > Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> > and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
> No!!!
> Not compatible.

That's open to debate, and has been several times before. You can argue
that muscle REPLACEMENT totally removes the old muscles and puts in
artificial ones, so even if you had muscle augmentation you lose its
bonus, and only get the muscle replacement modifier.

OTOH you can also argue that you can augment the replacement -- buy muscle
replacement first and then let the doc weave muscle augmentation through
it, so you end up with +8 Strength and Quickness.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you never write anything down then no one knows exactly what you
said so you can always change it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:09:47 +0100
Loki said on 9:08/23 May 97...

> Also, keep in mind that the character is blowing out 4 points of
> essence and 3.2 body index just to do this. Eeesh!

It could be nice for a character like a Muscle Merc, to play in a game
next to a Speed Samurai 2.0 :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you never write anything down then no one knows exactly what you
said so you can always change it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:09:47 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 10:03/23 May 97...

> Technically, by 2056 muscle replacement should no longer be available.

Don't count on that. It's less than half the price (nuyen-wise) than
muscle augmentation, so people on a budget would likely still get a muscle
replacement system instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you never write anything down then no one knows exactly what you
said so you can always change it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:09:46 +0100
Dust said on 9:04/23 May 97...

> > Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
> > Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> > Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
> > and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
> NEVER! They are not cumulative.

(Almost) never say never. IMHO this is not a case to say "never,"
perhaps unless you add "in my game" somewhere in the sentence...

Anyway, Shadowtech doesn't forbid (or allow) the mixing of cyber- and
bioware that do the same thing. Usually, you can assume that unless
something is forbidden, it's allowed; in this case, I'd check with the GM
if you're a player thinking about taking both.
Then there's the possibility that you're a GM wanting to know what others
think, and my own opinion is that they can be mixed, but only if you get
the replacement first, and only _then_ the augmentation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If you never write anything down then no one knows exactly what you
said so you can always change it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:02:44 -0700
---Caric wrote:
>
> Loki (my GM) contradicted:
>
>
> | I would probably say no on principle. It would really depend on the
> | character and case. Is it just for munchkin purposes?
> |
> | Also, keep in mind that the character is blowing out 4 points of
> | essence and 3.2 body index just to do this. Eeesh!
>
> Whatdaya mean NO?!?!?!? We've had been doin' it since day one.
Well I
> haven't, but you know who has...starts with an L ends with an N and
has oga
> in the middle.

As I said, it's depends on the case. I allowed it in Logan's instance
and found it affecting game balance. However, the point is moot since
Rookie has handed the character over to me. <EGMG>

Loki-the-GM-who-still-hasn't-revealed-if-Logan-is-dead-or-just-M.I.A.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- A. C. Clarke

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 24
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 11:08:37 +1000
> Generally (i think in Shadowtech - it would be logical) it is stated
> that bioware and cyberware that do the same thing cannot be added, eg

Hmmm... what about Cerebral Booster + Encephalon? Don't remember reading
anything to say they couldn't be combined. (And if they can't, there's
going to be a lot of sad deckers out there...)


Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-----------------------------------------------
Now a Geocities Times Square Community Leader!
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 25
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:31:31 -0400
At 02:27 PM 5/23/97 -0500, Dan Everett wrote these timeless words:
>Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before
>Muscle Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
>Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic musculature
>and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
>
This is something that has come up before, both on the list and in our
games IRL...

Technically, there is nothing in the rules that says you can't do it.
trust me, I've looked...

I have a personal house rule that says you can't. Basically, I rule that
since Muscle Aug enhances the existing natural musle, it won;t work on the
synthetic Muscles of the Muscle Replacement.

Also, I find +8 strength (add that to a Troll's natural Strength) to be
exceedingoly disgusting. It falls in the same category for me as Using a
Spell locked or Quickened +3d6 Initiative spell on someone with Synaptic
Accelerator level 2. This is technically legal, but 6d6 Initiative is
wrong...:]

However, some GM's allow it...

It's up to you to decide...

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 26
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:41:58 -0400
At 11:08 AM 5/24/97 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote these timeless words:
>> Generally (i think in Shadowtech - it would be logical) it is stated
>> that bioware and cyberware that do the same thing cannot be added, eg
>
>Hmmm... what about Cerebral Booster + Encephalon? Don't remember reading
>anything to say they couldn't be combined. (And if they can't, there's
>going to be a lot of sad deckers out there...)
>
These seem perfectly compatible, and tho I don't allow Muscle Aug and
Replace to be combined, I would allow these. Intelligence affects game
balance a LOT less than strength.

Sure, it affects deckers a lot, but not to the extent that it helps sammies
and mercs...

<shrug>

Of course, since I utilize both...:]

Bull
--
Now the Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
NEW HOME PAGE!: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

"The best Ork Decker you never met"
-Me, in the upcoming "Target: UCAS" Shadowrun Sourcebook!
Message no. 27
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:25:08 EDT
On Fri, 23 May 1997 23:31:31 -0400 Bull <chaos@*****.COM> writes:
>This is technically legal, but 6d6 Initiative is
>wrong...:]

But deckers can do it (1D6 base, +1D6 Hot ASIST, +1D6 from Reality
Filter, +3D6 from Response Increase 3m6 Initiative, and a +10 on
Reaction, I think:) And that's assuming you can't also count in bonuses
from Synaptic Accelerators (which is also _techically_ possible:)


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 28
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:13:20 +0100
|
|Greetings!!!
|
|It is never stated that Muscle Aug and Muscle Replacement are incompadible,
|but it is heavily implied. In Shadowtech, it is stated that the process of
|muscle replacement evolved to muscle augmentation, making the repacement
|process obsolete an unneccessary.
|
|Technically, by 2056 muscle replacement should no longer be available.

Why? It's a cheaper alternative.
Hardwired skills are still available.....
(And THOSE really are primative by 2056 standards...)


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 29
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:08:33 +0000
At 02:27 PM 5/23/97 -0500, Dan Everett wrote these timeless words:
> Say a Sammie buys Muscle Replacement early on (starting before Muscle
> Augmentation is available). Then Muscle Aug hits the streets. Can
> Muscle Augmentation be braided and woven into the synthetic
> musculature and if so...does that mean an overall maximum of +8?
Lesseee...

First thing I found implies not (CT, p. 50: "If the character also has
muscle replacement or muscle augmentation, [...]" probably indicating
just one of the two can be used)

Then see ST, p. 6: "Both cyberware and bioware can be integrated within
the same body. Treat bioware augmentation as base attributes in all
cases [...]." This seems to imply Muscle Replacement can be done
_after_ M.Augmentation.

Hm.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | God is real |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| - |
| \___ __/ | | unless declared |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | integer. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- ??? |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 30
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 17:49:23 -0700
---Bull wrote:
>
> Also, I find +8 strength (add that to a Troll's natural Strength) to
be
> exceedingoly disgusting. It falls in the same category for me as
Using a
> Spell locked or Quickened +3d6 Initiative spell on someone with
Synaptic
> Accelerator level 2. This is technically legal, but 6d6 Initiative
is
> wrong...:]
>
> However, some GM's allow it...

I agree with you, our group has set a limit that under laws of nature
and magic no one is able to achieve more than 4d6 initiative dice
(aside from move-by-wire, since that comes with it's own penalties for
cheating said laws. :o)

Just works alot better and makes more sense.

===

@>--,--'--- Loki

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

If in your adventures you happen across the skull of a dragon, turn
and leave that place quickly. Whatever killed the dragon may still be
around.

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 31
From: andre eibel <eibel.andre@**.COMCITY.DE>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 16:24:39 -0500
At 24-Mai-97 wrote Ray & Tamara:


>> >(Imagine a troll with +8 Strength)

>> And with Magical strenght +4 too

>With a target number of twice the attribute to be modified? I don't think
>so, TN 36 anyone?

>Ray.

That`s the problem, but it can happen. In my group the highest roll was a 37!
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 32
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:48:09 -0400
Greetings!!!

I hate to bring this up, but I did some checking, and in the past FASA has
ruled that Muscle Augmentation and Replacement are not compadible. But as
with anything GMs can run it how they see fit.

As for why I stated that I can not see Muscle Replacement being around in
2056(8), well that's easy. I went with the flavor text instead of overall
game ststistics. Muscle augmentation states that muscle replacement is
obsolete and unneccessary. Muscle replacement is also a much more invasive
medical procedure (you are replaceing all of the bodies muscles after all)
than muscle augmentation. Sure the tech is cheaper, it is also not nearly as
good as the bioware version.

I really wish FASA would do what GW does and have an offical Q&A section in
the Shadowland magazine.

-Bandit
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:28:34 +0100
M. Sean Martinez said on 10:48/26 May 97...

> I really wish FASA would do what GW does and have an offical Q&A section in
> the Shadowland magazine.

They did have that in the old Ka*Ge, that went under a few years back. In
Shadowland, I somehow don't think that'll appear anytime soon (don't ask
me why, it's just a feeling :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And everytime it rains...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 34
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Muscle question
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:29:49 EDT
On Mon, 26 May 1997 10:48:09 -0400 "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
writes:
>Greetings!!!
>
>I hate to bring this up, but I did some checking, and in the past FASA
has
>ruled that Muscle Augmentation and Replacement are not compadible.

When? Where? Who? That is, where, when or who at FASA said this? (Tom
Dowd? Paul Hume? Who?)


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Muscle question, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!