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Message no. 1
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 13:26:38 +0200
I was wondering: in one of the books they state that it is still difficult
to make a system that uses energy more economically than real muscles.
That's one of the reasons that strength enhancement for cyberlimbs is so
expensive.
But why then is muscle _replacement_ so cheap? For a mere 80.000 nuyen, you
have +4 to your strength _on all limbs_. If you are a human with STR 4,
that would give you STR 8. If you have a cyberlimb, it starts at STR 3 or
4, and for 75.000 nuyen you only get this one limb to STR 4/5! This seems
ridiculous to me.

Therefore, I have thought of two options: no more muscle replacement, and
muscle augmentation is the standard; or: the level is not a "+" to your
strength, but your _new_ strength. So muscle replacement level 4 gives you
a STR of 4, even if you own muscles gave you STR 11. After level 4, it will
get more expensive, in the range of extra STR for cyberlimbs - still
cheaper, for you will get a full body-overhaul and not just one limb.

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 2
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:21:39 +0200
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.org
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.org]On Behalf Of Quindrael
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 1:27 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.org
> Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
>
>
> I was wondering: in one of the books they state that it is still difficult
> to make a system that uses energy more economically than real muscles.
> That's one of the reasons that strength enhancement for cyberlimbs is so
> expensive.
> But why then is muscle _replacement_ so cheap? For a mere 80.000
> nuyen, you
> have +4 to your strength _on all limbs_.

Yes, but this is still ordinary flesh and blood, just vat-grown to make
it as effective as possible.

As Strength enhancement, you would use servo motors and hydraulics and such.
You might say that hydraulics are easily stronger than human muscles, but
as those systems have to fit into your arm, it will get expensive very fast.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>#361 arclight@**************.com <>14322211<>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<> di khong dau, nau khong khoi, noi khong tieng. <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Message no. 3
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 15:44:32 +0200
>> But why then is muscle _replacement_ so cheap? For a mere 80.000
>> nuyen, you
>> have +4 to your strength _on all limbs_.
>
>Yes, but this is still ordinary flesh and blood, just vat-grown to make
>it as effective as possible.

Nope. That's muscle _augmentation_. Muscle replacement is _cyber_ware, not
_bio_ware, and therefore machine, not living tissue.

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 4
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:32:45 -0500
> >> But why then is muscle _replacement_ so cheap? For a mere 80.000
> >> nuyen, you have +4 to your strength _on all limbs_.
> >
> >Yes, but this is still ordinary flesh and blood, just vat-grown to
> >make it as effective as possible.
>
> Nope. That's muscle _augmentation_. Muscle replacement is _cyber_ware,
> not _bio_ware, and therefore machine, not living tissue.

Nope; that's muscle replacement. Go back and read the description for
muscle replacement again, versus the description for muscle augmentation
in SHADOWTECH.
Message no. 5
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 16:32:52 +0200
>Nope; that's muscle replacement. Go back and read the description for
>muscle replacement again

Implanted, vat-grown _synthetic_ muscles. So no living tissue...

Calcium treatments etc. etc.: OK, even cyberware can have some "bio" parts.
But why can't they use these cheap treatments for cyberlimbs, where one of
the reasons of difficulties is the difference in strength between the
cyberlimb and the part of the body it is attached to?

>versus the description for muscle augmentation in SHADOWTECH.

Yes, it says it derived from muscle replacement. But that was my whole
point: if at one place (don't know where, I think somewhere in Shadowtech)
that they can't reproduce the economical energy-output of real muscles by
mechanical parts, that augmentation is derived from replacement? Because
the other statement says that replacement cannot be as strong as real musscles
(at least, not for such a low price; with much more money, of course).
I would say that muscle augmentation would preceed replacement. And the
latter would be more expensive. Why can't they use the latter in cyberlimbs?

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 6
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:50:04 -0500
On Tue, 18 May 1999 15:44:32 +0200 Quindrael
<d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl> writes:
>>> But why then is muscle _replacement_ so cheap? For a mere 80.000
>>> nuyen, you
>>> have +4 to your strength _on all limbs_.

>>Yes, but this is still ordinary flesh and blood, just vat-grown to make
>>it as effective as possible.

>Nope. That's muscle _augmentation_. Muscle replacement is _cyber_ware,
not
>_bio_ware, and therefore machine, not living tissue.

Wrong. Bioware augments an existing system (As I recall, Muscle
Augmentation is NOT organic). Cyberware REPLACES the existing system (or
adds a completely new function a la a datajack). The distinction is not
which is organic and which isn't. The distinction lies in how they
affect you systems.

Muscle replacement is geneticly engineered "super" muscles that replace
your own muscles and thus fall under cyberware even though they are
organic.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Hello, my name is Stephen. This is Dick. He'll see if he has something
your size." -- Jug Ears

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Message no. 7
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:18:27 -0700
Quindrael wrote:
>
> Nope. That's muscle _augmentation_. Muscle replacement is _cyber_ware, not
> _bio_ware, and therefore machine, not living tissue.

Not hardly, it's "vat-grown synthetic muscle," coupled with "calcium
treatments to increase skeletal strength." No gears, no need for gears.

It seems that the basic idea is to improve upon what the recipient starts
with, otherwise, there's no point to the augmentation[1] at all.

[1]As in, increase, you know. Not the bioware.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
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Message no. 8
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 14:19:50 -0700
Quindrael wrote:
>
> >Nope; that's muscle replacement. Go back and read the description for
> >muscle replacement again
>
> Implanted, vat-grown _synthetic_ muscles. So no living tissue...

It very well might be living tissue...or advanced myomer, or both.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
Listowner: Unofficial Trinity mailing list
http://www.teleport.com/~xenya | http://www.telelists.com
Message no. 9
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 19:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
> > Implanted, vat-grown _synthetic_ muscles. So no
> living tissue...
>
> It very well might be living tissue...or advanced
> myomer, or both.
> Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com |

Errr, Dierd'Re - read the quote again. :)

I don't know what you're debating about (yet), but it's fairly clear
(and it's been discussed in the past on the list) that when it says
SYNTHETIC, it means SYNTHETIC - as in, artificial.

The thing you have to remember is that the Shadowrun system goes into
such detail with these processes that it has to be contextually
sensitive. If they meant living tissue, they would have said living
tissue. The fact that it says SYNTHETIC means that it's artificial,
non-living tissue.

*"Look, up in the sky! Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's...PEDANTIC MAN!!!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 10
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:01:16 -0500
:The thing you have to remember is that the Shadowrun system goes into
:such detail with these processes that it has to be contextually
:sensitive. If they meant living tissue, they would have said living
:tissue. The fact that it says SYNTHETIC means that it's artificial,
:non-living tissue.


Could you give an example of a "non living tissue", real or theoretical?
Because the only kind I know is "tissue paper", which would make pretty
crappy muscles. :)
AFAIK, all tissue is, be definition, of living organic origin. (And
yes, the Shadowrun items are confusing in their description, that's been
long acknowledged)
My feeling is that, perhaps, muscle replacement is non-metahuman,
totally genegenered tissue. That would be prone to rejection, so it might
be encased in some sort of internal sheathe and given a blood interface
filter. That doesn't sound cheap, but it would make it cyberware in my
book. Large muscle groups would be completely replaced, but others would be
minimally impacted. The patients starting strength would be a factor in how
much stress could safely be applied to their skeleton, but stronger people
probably should need more muscle implants if it is truly a replacement.
This still begs the question of why such muscles would not be used on
Cyberlimbs. The only reason I can think of is that Cyberlimbs are designed
to incorporate built in items. This would be easier to do with a motor and
exoskeleton based motion system than a synthetic skeleton that used more or
less normal muscles. Perhaps that is why the limbs that can't be improved
any or take built in items are significantly cheaper.
<shrugs> Its a lame answer, but its maybe better than "cause thats the
rules".

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:57:04 -0700 (PDT)
> Could you give an example of a "non living tissue", real or
theoretical? Because the only kind I know is "tissue paper", which
would make pretty crappy muscles. :)
> Mongoose

Actually, it said "synthetic muscle". Tissue was my word.

I'd guess it's something along the lines of 'myomer' as developed in
the BattleTech universe and mentioned by Dierd'Re. I can't remember how
it's supposed to be made, but it works just like real muscles,
contracting when subjected to electric currents.

Does that sound reasonable?

And yes, I still say, if it says SYNTHETIC in Shadowrun, it MEANS
synthetic. Artificial. Made up. Non-living.

*Doc' just puts on the Pedantic Man hat this time, because he's too
busy to get the entire costume out.*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 12
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:03:41 EDT
In a message dated 5/19/99 3:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Could you give an example of a "non living tissue", real or
theoretical?
> Because the only kind I know is "tissue paper", which would make pretty
> crappy muscles. :)
> AFAIK, all tissue is, be definition, of living organic origin. (And
> yes, the Shadowrun items are confusing in their description, that's been
> long acknowledged)

It's entirely possible they are borrowing from one of their OTHER games,
BattleTech.

Myomar bundles are used both for battlemechs, and the limited amount of
cybernetics available within the scope of my MechWarrior 2d Edition rules,
etc. They are a plastic-based item, IIRC, with properties mimicking those of
muscle tissue ... so I can see them being called "artificial muscle tissue"
myself.

And, again IIRC, myomar bundles are relatively inert, producing heat and
requiring the application of electric current when they contract, but
otherwise doing not much at all. So for a true _replacement_ of your own
muscle tissues, I can see also needing some kind of heat-dissipation gear, to
avoid overheating any one location of the body. Body wide coolant/antifreeze
system, anyone? <g>

It would also make sense for them to be used for cybernetics, as the bundles
could be grouped to mimic muscle groups in the natural arm, making the
cyberarm less obvious.

Point in case: Cybertechnology. The illustration of the arm, with the FUCHI
label on it? Right above where they talk about SynthSkin coverings.

Those are MYOMAR BUNDLES, chummers. :-)

Likely, the reason the cyberarms that can take mods cost more is, they use
OTHER means of locomotion ... the very distinction you posit for why
non-modifyable arms (etc) cost so much less than the ones most runners tend
to use.

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 13
From: Allen Versfeld moe@*******.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:52:44 +0200
GMPax@***.com wrote:
>
>
> And, again IIRC, myomar bundles are relatively inert, producing heat and
> requiring the application of electric current when they contract, but
> otherwise doing not much at all. So for a true _replacement_ of your own
> muscle tissues, I can see also needing some kind of heat-dissipation gear, to
> avoid overheating any one location of the body. Body wide coolant/antifreeze
> system, anyone? <g>

Well real muscles also produce heat, so why not just use your
circulatory system like nature intended?

>
> Sean
> GM Pax


--
Allen Versfeld
moe@*******.com
Wandata
Message no. 14
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:58:51 EDT
In a message dated 5/19/99 4:53:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moe@*******.com
writes:

> Well real muscles also produce heat, so why not just use your
> circulatory system like nature intended?

IIRC, the myomar bundles produce MORE heat (a largish factor, maybe as much
as an order of magnitude) than an equivalent mass of muscle. Which only
makes sense, since they are applying greater force than normal muscles would
... well, it makes sense to ME anyway. :-) I'm not thinking anything huge,
just a "secondary circulatory system" designed to spread the heat around your
own body more ... a smallish pump, some tubing, and SALINE SOLUTION (salty
water) even. :-)

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 15
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:35:00 +0200
>Likely, the reason the cyberarms that can take mods cost more is, they use
>OTHER means of locomotion ... the very distinction you posit for why
>non-modifyable arms (etc) cost so much less than the ones most runners tend
>to use.

Where do I find these non-modifyable arms? In Cybertechnology? Can't
remember them...

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 16
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 05:56:19 EDT
In a message dated 5/19/99 5:31:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

> Where do I find these non-modifyable arms? In Cybertechnology? Can't
> remember them...
>
> VrGr David
>
> This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.

Yes. They cost only about 50K nuyen -- so if all you want is an arm that
WORKS (as opposed to the stump some fool's GRENADE left your poor rigger or
decker) ... then you can get tHIS.

Also note, those are the sorts of cyberarm MOST Joe Q. Average types will
get, if any. Because they are cheaper even than (IIRC the prices) generic,
type-O clonal arms ...

Sean
GM Pax
Message no. 17
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:32:30 +0200
>Yes. They cost only about 50K nuyen -- so if all you want is an arm that
>WORKS (as opposed to the stump some fool's GRENADE left your poor rigger or
>decker) ... then you can get tHIS.

Which page? Really can't find it.

And to be honest, I'm still not convinced why cyberlimb strength should be
so expensive compared to muscle replacement. I think I'll just throw the
whole muscle replacement out of the window, make cyberlimb strength a bit
cheaper, and make muscle augmentation the "standard" instead of muscle
replacement.

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 18
From: Marizhavashti Kali xenya@********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 03:38:49 -0700
Quindrael wrote:
>
> Where do I find these non-modifyable arms? In Cybertechnology? Can't
> remember them...

They're in the core rules, at least in SR2.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Unofficial Fading Suns mailing list
Listowner: Unofficial Trinity mailing list
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Message no. 19
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:13:02 CST
It's probably more expensive because there has to be a lot of structural
support added to the body (hence the extra Essence cost).

>
>And to be honest, I'm still not convinced why cyberlimb strength should be
>so expensive compared to muscle replacement. I think I'll just throw the
>whole muscle replacement out of the window, make cyberlimb strength a bit
>cheaper, and make muscle augmentation the "standard" instead of muscle
>replacement.
>


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 20
From: Quindrael d.n.m.vannederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 19:27:08 +0200
At 10:13 19-5-99 CST, you wrote:
>It's probably more expensive because there has to be a lot of structural
>support added to the body (hence the extra Essence cost).

We're not talking about Essence, because extra Strength doesn't cost you
extra Essence (at first). It was all about the cash. And I already
mentioned that this extra structural supprt would also be needed for muscle
replacement (and augmentation) if you make your muscles extraordinarily
strong.
Although I find .4 Essence per limb per extra point above 3 a bit much, too.

VrGr David

This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
Message no. 21
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 16:30:31 CST
>At 10:13 19-5-99 CST, you wrote:
>We're not talking about Essence, because extra Strength doesn't cost you
>extra Essence (at first). It was all about the cash. And I already
>mentioned that this extra structural supprt would also be needed for muscle
>replacement (and augmentation) if you make your muscles extraordinarily
>strong.

I dunno, it makes sense to me that there are two different technologies
at work here. I mean the miniturization of servos in a cyberlimb would be
expensive. And with greater strength would mean stronger and more costly
servos (or whatever). Not to mention the actual reinforcing of the arm to
accomodate the strength. My understanding of mucle replacement is that the
old mucle is removed and replaced with something tougher (higher tensile
strength and so forth). The bone reinforcement is part of the package (but
does not count as lacing). Now, it would be easier to work with what is
already in the body than starting from scratch as it were. The difference
in difficulty could explain the difference in price.


>Although I find .4 Essence per limb per extra point above 3 a bit much,
>too.
>
Yeah me too, but it does make sense (at least the way it was describe in
the novels).

>VrGr David
>
>This is not a signature, every mail I type it again.
>
>


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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Message no. 22
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:02:12 -0500
:>Likely, the reason the cyberarms that can take mods cost more is, they use
:>OTHER means of locomotion ... the very distinction you posit for why
:>non-modifyable arms (etc) cost so much less than the ones most runners
tend
:>to use.
:
:Where do I find these non-modifyable arms? In Cybertechnology? Can't
:remember them...
:
:VrGr David


SR2 had them. They cost 50,000¥, and worked like normal Cyberlimbs
(even aiding damage resistance)- but they could take no modification (built
in gear or attribute boosts- they could probably take normal cyber, like a
smartlink or spurs, and with the normal essence cost reduction of a
cyberlimb).
Anyhow, these were axed in SR3 because theres no much point in a runner
getting one. If a runner did want one, I'd think you could let them get
either concealable or obvious limbs at 1/2 ¥, and stipulate those limbs
can't take any improvements.

Mongoose
Message no. 23
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:07:48 -0500
:It's entirely possible they are borrowing from one of their OTHER games,
:BattleTech.
:
:Myomar bundles are used both for battlemechs, and the limited amount of
:cybernetics available within the scope of my MechWarrior 2d Edition rules,
:etc. They are a plastic-based item, IIRC, with properties mimicking those
of
:muscle tissue ... so I can see them being called "artificial muscle tissue"
:myself.


Possible, bit "myomar" means "muscle" in greek or latin, iirc. If
so,
Myomar bundle is not a technical term- its an anolgy. There's lots of ways
to make artificail muscles, but none of them are called "artificial muscle
tissue", unless they are some form of living tissue.

:Point in case: Cybertechnology. The illustration of the arm, with the
FUCHI
:label on it? Right above where they talk about SynthSkin coverings.
:
:Those are MYOMAR BUNDLES, chummers. :-)


Actually, I think they look an AWFUL lot like a developed version of the
"artifical muscles" touted for use with some Lego project MIT sponsered, in
the "fetish" section of "Wired" magizine a few months before
Cybertechnology
came out (thus just in time for Nelson to see it an use it in
Cybertechnology...) Those worked with air preasure- a blader inside a mesh
tube was presurized, causing it to expand. The mesh was then deformed from
diamond shped weave to square, shortening the tubes length. Those "muscles"
have a mesh sheath exactly like the ones pictured on the cybelimbs, and
thier motion is very like real muslces (contraction only, "plumping" whan
contracted).
Thoe work rather like putting a ballon in a net bag (or one of those mesh
plastic bags onions come in), and fastening each end of the bag on oposite
sides of a joint- inflating the baloon will make the bag get shorter and
rounder, thus contracting the joint. As they work on air pressure, control
can be very fine (and simple), and the force aplied is "elastic". They can
be made in heavy duty versions to work via hydraulic pressure. If properly
constructed, they can contract to less than 1/2 thier stretched length.
Nice imagery, cool technology- but ultimately, FASA's art dept. has
almost nothing to do with SR's development, so the images of individual tech
are nearly meaningless to thier actual function.

Mongoose
Message no. 24
From: GMPax@***.com GMPax@***.com
Subject: Muscle replacement very cheap?
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:52:18 EDT
In a message dated 5/21/99 5:41:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> Possible, bit "myomar" means "muscle" in greek or latin,
iirc. If so,
> Myomar bundle is not a technical term- its an anolgy. There's lots of ways
> to make artificail muscles, but none of them are called "artificial muscle
> tissue", unless they are some form of living tissue.

The descriptions of "myomar" (never knew the origins of the word, btw) is a
plymer-based substance that contracts via electrical (IIRC) stimulation.
Rather like the polymers NASA is using, or the "Bucky Paper" stuff (carbon
nanotubes, or some such) referenced on MSNBC, that someone else on the list
pointed us to, earlier today. :-)

Sean
GM Pax

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