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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 02:01:33 -0500
OK, help me and Bull out.

One night, in a fit of Munchkinism, I tried to see just how hideously
strong you could make a troll.

The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and muscle
replacement.
I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling that says
this cannot be done?

Think like a munchkin for a minute :-)

If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please send it
to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
blatant min-max behaviour! :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I just got to run SR again after a several month hiatus, and am I STOKED!"
Message no. 2
From: Eric Hall <esh7695@******.SDSMT.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 01:07:29 +0000
"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM> wrote...

{snip -- can muscle aug go with muscle replacement?}

> If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please send it
> to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
> blatant min-max behaviour! :-)

Shoot, left my books at home. IIRC, the page in Shadowtech that details
Muscle Augmentation has a note right below the game statistics that says
that muscle aug. CANNOT be combined with muscle replacement.

BTW my guess is that the max strength for a Troll will be 24 (this is
without checking any rules at all). Maybe we should start a pool?

Rone
----------------------------------------------
Eric Hall esh7695@******.sdsmt.edu
Visit my Shadowrun Page:
http://www.geocities.com/TimeSquare/Alley/1875
Message no. 3
From: Craig J Wilhelm <nyccraig@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 04:22:36 EST
(SNIP)

>Shoot, left my books at home. IIRC, the page in Shadowtech that
>details
>Muscle Augmentation has a note right below the game statistics that
>says
>that muscle aug. CANNOT be combined with muscle replacement.
>
>BTW my guess is that the max strength for a Troll will be 24 (this is
>without checking any rules at all). Maybe we should start a pool?
>
>Rone

I just checked through my books again, and I found nothing forbidding
someone from combining Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Replacement.

If someone has something that says otherwise, please chime in.
(And I know you will...)

Anyway, if money were no object, you could make anyone just about
as strong as you want with Cyberarms and Strength Enhancement.

Enjoy,
Craig Wilhelm

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IN CYBERSPACE, NO ONE CAN HEAR YOU LOL
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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:04:47 +0100
Eric Hall said on 1:07/29 Mar 97...

> Shoot, left my books at home. IIRC, the page in Shadowtech that details
> Muscle Augmentation has a note right below the game statistics that says
> that muscle aug. CANNOT be combined with muscle replacement.

It doesn't in my copy, though since there are two versions of Shadowtech
around, the other might forbid this combination after all.

> BTW my guess is that the max strength for a Troll will be 24 (this is
> without checking any rules at all). Maybe we should start a pool?

+5 Strength, x1.5 above racial max gives 16. Add four levels of muscle
aug. and muscle repl. and yeah, it's 24. Ouch...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:27:01 -0500
> (SNIP)
>
> >Shoot, left my books at home. IIRC, the page in Shadowtech that
> >details
> >Muscle Augmentation has a note right below the game statistics that
> >says
> >that muscle aug. CANNOT be combined with muscle replacement.
> >
> >BTW my guess is that the max strength for a Troll will be 24 (this is
> >without checking any rules at all). Maybe we should start a pool?
> >
> >Rone
>
> I just checked through my books again, and I found nothing forbidding
> someone from combining Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Replacement.
>
> If someone has something that says otherwise, please chime in.
> (And I know you will...)
>
> Anyway, if money were no object, you could make anyone just about
> as strong as you want with Cyberarms and Strength Enhancement.

Gamewise maybe, realistically not. Even if you were worried about just
the arm strength, you could only get so strong without ripping the arm out
of the body. You probably could increase the strength more if you had
bone lacing of some type because you would be able to get a stronger
connection, but just strengthing the arms would imbalence the whole body
and probably wouldnn't be as useful as you think. That is why muscle
aug/replace is nice. That is increasing the strength across the whole
body.

One thing I have noticed is how the strength differtial between races seem
to disappear alot as the general amount of augmentation increases. One
would think that since a troll is twise as big and strong (basically) as a
human, the augmentation of his muscles would increase his strength
proportionally so. I agree that that would be very imbalancing, but if a
troll has twise as much muscle mass, I would think that one would be able
to add more augmentation to it and increase his strength more that of a
human..
Message no. 6
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 09:28:11 +1000
> I just checked through my books again, and I found nothing forbidding
> someone from combining Muscle Augmentation and Muscle Replacement.
>
> If someone has something that says otherwise, please chime in.
> (And I know you will...)
>
> Anyway, if money were no object, you could make anyone just about
> as strong as you want with Cyberarms and Strength Enhancement.
>

It starts costing extra essence for the anchoring points after +4...
makes it very eneconomical.

BTW, I'd always assumed that you couldn't combine the two types of
augmentation, because of the processes of implantion, etc. I seem to
recall reading somewhere that they couldn't be combined, but I don't own
any books anymore, so I can't check.

As long as the total level was below +4 I don't see why it wouldn't work,
assuming there are no rules to the contrary. After that you'd start to
stress the body out. (Lift the car, rip your arm off kind-of-thing)

Though why you'd want to blow 1 point of essence on a measely +1
strength & quickness I don't know.

Bleach
Message no. 7
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:09:49 -0500
> OK, help me and Bull out.
>
> One night, in a fit of Munchkinism, I tried to see just how hideously
> strong you could make a troll.
>
> The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and muscle
> replacement.
> I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling that says
> this cannot be done?
>
> Think like a munchkin for a minute :-)
>
> If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please send it
> to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
> blatant min-max behaviour! :-)

Even better, add +4 attribute strength spell to the mix. Might take a
little while, but oh well :)

As for muscle aug/muscle replace... don't know any pages, but muscle aug
enhances existing muscles, while replacement takes them out.. Hard to
combine the two...
Message no. 8
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 11:39:07 +0500
On 29 Mar 97 at 11:04, Gurth wrote:

> Eric Hall said on 1:07/29 Mar 97...
>
> > Shoot, left my books at home. IIRC, the page in Shadowtech that
> > details Muscle Augmentation has a note right below the game
> > statistics that says that muscle aug. CANNOT be combined with
> > muscle replacement.
>
> It doesn't in my copy, though since there are two versions of
> Shadowtech around, the other might forbid this combination after
> all.

Damn, I could've swore I read that somewhere, but it indeed wasn't in
Shadowtech. Now it is going to bug me... The SR2 main rule book says
that Muscle Replacement are synthetic muscles, and Shadowtech says
that Muscle Aug. are fibers woven into the muscles, and implies that
it is better than Muscle Replacement, which further implies that it
is issued instead of, not in conjunction with. But it is not
explicitely stated.

> > BTW my guess is that the max strength for a Troll will be 24 (this
> > is without checking any rules at all). Maybe we should start a
> > pool?
> +5 Strength, x1.5 above racial max gives 16. Add four levels of
> +muscle
> aug. and muscle repl. and yeah, it's 24. Ouch...

Ouch indeed.

#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
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#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage, against the dying of the light. -Dylan Thomas
Message no. 9
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 19:52:41 -0500
> As for muscle aug/muscle replace... don't know any pages, but muscle aug
> enhances existing muscles, while replacement takes them out.. Hard to
> combine the two...

Not when you consider the amount of muscles in the human body.
Something like 800 some isn't it?
We're not just talking biceps here - we're talking full body muscle work.
Maybe some are replaced, and some are augmented, depending on their
location in the body, and their relative uses.
Gamers min/max, why wouldn't doctors? :-)
I DO agree that you can't logically do both to one muscle group, but you
could do the arms one way, and the legs another, lower back one way and the
chest another ...

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I just got to run SR again after a several month hiatus, and am I STOKED!"
Message no. 10
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 17:59:24 -0700
Steven A. Tinner wrote:
|
| OK, help me and Bull out.
|
| The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and muscle
| replacement.
| I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling that says
| this cannot be done?

This one has come up before. I believe the consensus was that as long
as you followed muscle replacement with muscle augmentation, you were
fine. But if you did it the other way around, you lost all the
advantages of the muscle augmentation because that augmented muscle had
just been replaced.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:19:27 EST
On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 02:01:33 -0500 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>OK, help me and Bull out.
>
>One night, in a fit of Munchkinism, I tried to see just how hideously
>strong you could make a troll.
>
>The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and
>muscle
>replacement.
>I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling that
>says
>this cannot be done?
>

Not that I know of:) Having just read over the page on Muscle Aug in
S-tech, there isn't anything that I know of.



>Think like a munchkin for a minute :-)
>

I only had to think back to a year ago:)



>If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please
>send it
>to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
>blatant min-max behaviour! :-)

Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware, use a house rule, put
the overstress rules into play or something ('course, the overstress
rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)



--
-Canthros (And to think I thought this message was about the little pink
figures I used to play with as a kid (M.U.S.C.L.E.S. :)
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:42:05 -0500
> >If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please
> >send it
> >to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
> >blatant min-max behaviour! :-)
>
> Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware, use a house rule, put
> the overstress rules into play or something ('course, the overstress
> rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)

I think you misunderstand - I don't want to prevent it!
I want to do it!
Johnny 99 and Bull need a good challenge, and a muscled out Troll sounds
like a good choice! :-)

> -Canthros (And to think I thought this message was about the little pink
> figures I used to play with as a kid (M.U.S.C.L.E.S. :)

Hey! I remember those! Little soldier and Pro Wrestlers right?
They were an awful little flesh tone, and came in packs of 10 or something
right?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I just got to run SR again after a several month hiatus, and am I STOKED!"
Message no. 13
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:49:05 EST
On Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:42:05 -0500 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>> >If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please
>> >send it
>> >to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop
>such
>> >blatant min-max behaviour! :-)
>>
>> Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware, use a house rule,
>put
>> the overstress rules into play or something ('course, the overstress
>> rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)
>
>I think you misunderstand - I don't want to prevent it!
>I want to do it!
>Johnny 99 and Bull need a good challenge, and a muscled out Troll
>sounds
>like a good choice! :-)
>

Oh...In that case, who cares (besides Bull&Co. :)? As long as nothing
explicitly denies the possibility:) I could probably ask for a couple of
ideas from one of my players, if you don't need the guy for a couple of
weeks.



>> -Canthros (And to think I thought this message was about the little
>pink
>> figures I used to play with as a kid (M.U.S.C.L.E.S. :)
>
>Hey! I remember those! Little soldier and Pro Wrestlers right?
>They were an awful little flesh tone, and came in packs of 10 or
>something
>right?

Yeah! I still have a few of those running around in my room. You could
also buy them in packs of like 30 or 50, then they came in a little clear
plastic trashcan:) I don't play with them now (but that's 'cause I can't
find more than two or three of them:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 14
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 12:58:48 +1000
> >If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule forbids this please
> >send it
> >to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a reason to stop such
> >blatant min-max behaviour! :-)
>
> Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware, use a house rule, put
> the overstress rules into play or something ('course, the overstress
> rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)
>

In our game, sometimes the overstress rules apply where an attribute is
boosted with cyber and bioware at the same time.

Depends on the case, for example an average joe with 3 intelligence should
certainly overstress if he gets a Cerebral Booster 2 and Encephalon 4
implanted.... his brain can't take it (only so much there naturally to work
with).

Of course, I'm assuming that REAL intelligence is something you have to
work at, rather than simply surgically implant.

That kind of rational would also allow nasty GM's to introduce
shizophrenia, etc. in cases where characters want the high intelligence
to min max. (Not that i know any nasty GM's...... they simply don't exist
*grin*)

In general the overstress rules make as much sense for cyber as bio....
I've seen relatively few characters that even come close to
overstress.... Besides, what's a piddling +1 or +2 TN if you get
incredible stats?

Bleach
Message no. 15
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 13:03:31 +1000
> > Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware, use a house rule, pu=
t
> > the overstress rules into play or something ('course, the overstress
> > rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)
>
> I think you misunderstand - I don't want to prevent it!
> I want to do it!
> Johnny 99 and Bull need a good challenge, and a muscled out Troll sounds
> like a good choice! :-)
>

In that case, have my (patented) never-used Cybertrog.

Get a Troll, max the important attributes (ie all of them), give him 6.0
points of beta-grade cyberware, and stack him to the gills with Bioware
(There will be room left over).

Ignore the surgery and equipment costs.

You've got one *mean* mother of a troll.

It should be noted that the last time I ran up the stats for cybertrog,
his parts bill hit the 75,000,000 ¥ mark.... and that was before
cybertechnology.

Now, all you have to do is think up a reason why he's after the
players.... it's a lot of money to be throwing around, but if they'll do
it for Hangfire, I guess Cybertrog exists somewhere in the world.

Bleach
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 11:36:28 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 12:58/30 Mar 97...

> In our game, sometimes the overstress rules apply where an attribute is
> boosted with cyber and bioware at the same time.

That's what I do too -- it has only come up once, but I've ruled that if
bioware has helped bring the attribute to more than twice its basic level,
it can cause overstress. For example, if a character with Strength 3 were
to take level 1 muscle aug and level 3 muscle rep then I'd make him/her
prone to biosystem overstress, even though the bioware is only 25% of the
boost.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
and there are those, there are those who think
that drastic actions will make them unique
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 09:57:52 +1000
> > In our game, sometimes the overstress rules apply where an attribute is
> > boosted with cyber and bioware at the same time.
>
> That's what I do too -- it has only come up once, but I've ruled that if
> bioware has helped bring the attribute to more than twice its basic level,
> it can cause overstress. For example, if a character with Strength 3 were
> to take level 1 muscle aug and level 3 muscle rep then I'd make him/her
> prone to biosystem overstress, even though the bioware is only 25% of the
> boost.
>

I'd be prone to do it with pure cyber enhancments, too.... but that's
less likely to happen 'cause Bio gives you nearly all of your major stat
enhancements.

I've seen a few characters that overstress when something triggers, like
an adrenal pump, but that makes good game sense and is easy enough for the
character to take, and even enjoy playing.
Message no. 18
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 00:37:32 -0800
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:42:05 -0500
>From: "Steven A. Tinner"

>> >If anyone knows page numbers where such a rule
forbids this please
>> >send it
>> >to me, as I have been thus far, unable to find a
reason to stop such
>> >blatant min-max behaviour! :-)
>>

Now you've pissed me off. Here I've thought for
almost five years that they were incompatable, but
after an extensive hunt through all of my books
(hell, I even checked the NAGRA just in case!), I
can't find a single rule that says so. In fact, in
Cybertechnology (pg. 56-57), it talks about effects
of muscle aug/rep with cyberlimbs, but says nothing
about the two working together. I'm now inclined to
say OK to this! Damn you, you've disillusioned me
most heinously. I think I'll go roll a character for
that wierd new game _Real_Life_ with a beer gut and
no social life to counteract the twisted notions
you've stuck in my head!

>> Don't allow starting characters access to Bioware,
use a house rule, put
>> the overstress rules into play or something
('course, the overstress
>> rules don't apply to cyber increases, but...)
>

Ah, let 'em. It's fun to knock the fresh meat with
the Adrenal Pump 2 on his ass from overjuicing after
a minor scrap with a small gang just before he finds
out the "gang" was with the UB and their Bug buddies
were right behind them. :)

>I think you misunderstand - I don't want to prevent
it!
>I want to do it!
>Johnny 99 and Bull need a good challenge, and a
muscled out Troll sounds
>like a good choice! :-)
>

Give 'em a shot of Kamikaze and a Suprathyroid Gland
while you're at it. :)

>> -Canthros (And to think I thought this message was
about the little pink
>> figures I used to play with as a kid
(M.U.S.C.L.E.S. :)
>
>Hey! I remember those! Little soldier and Pro
Wrestlers right?
>They were an awful little flesh tone, and came in
packs of 10 or something
>right?
>

Er... yeah, ok.

Shawn
Shadowtech's got some of the best damn gear
(especially Cultured, Tailored Pheromones: "Helllooo
Nurse!"). :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!

---------------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 19
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:55:30 +0000
> From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> Subject: MUSCLES

> The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and muscle
> replacement.
> I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling that says
> this cannot be done?

I believe that it is official errata.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 20
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:18:09 -0500
> Now you've pissed me off. Here I've thought for
> almost five years that they were incompatable, but
> after an extensive hunt through all of my books
> (hell, I even checked the NAGRA just in case!), I
> can't find a single rule that says so. In fact, in
> Cybertechnology (pg. 56-57), it talks about effects
> of muscle aug/rep with cyberlimbs, but says nothing
> about the two working together. I'm now inclined to
> say OK to this! Damn you, you've disillusioned me
> most heinously. I think I'll go roll a character for
> that wierd new game _Real_Life_ with a beer gut and
> no social life to counteract the twisted notions
> you've stuck in my head!

Hurray! Mission complete!
I can now contact the Mothership and return to my home planet!
(#&$*&^@#()*@#$*^@)$()@#&(@#*)@(#@%^*@$@_)$()_*(^*% :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I just got to run SR again after a several month hiatus, and am I STOKED!"
Message no. 21
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 08:28:24 -0500
At 01:03 PM 3/30/97 +1000, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:
>
>In that case, have my (patented) never-used Cybertrog.
>
>Get a Troll, max the important attributes (ie all of them), give him 6.0
>points of beta-grade cyberware, and stack him to the gills with Bioware
>(There will be room left over).
>
>Ignore the surgery and equipment costs.
>
>You've got one *mean* mother of a troll.
>
>It should be noted that the last time I ran up the stats for cybertrog,
>his parts bill hit the 75,000,000 ¥ mark.... and that was before
>cybertechnology.
>
>Now, all you have to do is think up a reason why he's after the
>players.... it's a lot of money to be throwing around, but if they'll do
>it for Hangfire, I guess Cybertrog exists somewhere in the world.
>
>Bleach
>
>

And then give him a Ranger-X compound bow bought to his Strength. If you
go for the 24 Strength and use the rules straight out of the books (and I
am working from memory on this one) he'll end up doing something like 27M
vs. Impact Armor with a max range of a kilometer plus. Give the bow a mag
scope and those pesky long-range modifiers disappear...Dikote the arrows
and he'll put an arrow through ANYthing. Of course, he can only fire once
an action, but if he's moving fast enough on the initiative that won't
matter much, especially considering the damage he can soak...

--Blair



____________________________________________________________________________=
__
Blair A. Monroe | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu | GLS/IT/(TW) =
GC3.12
| | d+(dpu) s:+ a25>a? C++(+++)=
U(!U)
-----------------|-------------------------| P>+ L W+++ N+ o-- K- w--- !O
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/ | M++ PS+ !PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+++ X++
(Books-RPGs-TV-Etc.) | R+(++) tv+ b++>+++ DI+(++) D+
| G++ e++>+++ h* y?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
Message no. 22
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 19:29:37 +1000
> >In that case, have my (patented) never-used Cybertrog.
> >
> >Get a Troll, max the important attributes (ie all of them), give him 6.0=

> >points of beta-grade cyberware, and stack him to the gills with Bioware=

> >(There will be room left over).
> >
> >Ignore the surgery and equipment costs.
> >
> >You've got one *mean* mother of a troll.
> >
> >It should be noted that the last time I ran up the stats for cybertrog,=

> >his parts bill hit the 75,000,000 ¥ mark.... and that was before
> >cybertechnology.
> >
> >Now, all you have to do is think up a reason why he's after the
> >players.... it's a lot of money to be throwing around, but if they'll do=

> >it for Hangfire, I guess Cybertrog exists somewhere in the world.
> >
> >Bleach
> >
> >
>
> And then give him a Ranger-X compound bow bought to his Strength. If you
> go for the 24 Strength and use the rules straight out of the books (and I
> am working from memory on this one) he'll end up doing something like 27M
> vs. Impact Armor with a max range of a kilometer plus. Give the bow a ma=
g
> scope and those pesky long-range modifiers disappear...Dikote the arrows
> and he'll put an arrow through ANYthing. Of course, he can only fire onc=
e
> an action, but if he's moving fast enough on the initiative that won't
> matter much, especially considering the damage he can soak...
>

Well, that's going a little too far. *grin* I don't like the bow
rules.... as I've said on many occasions.

Tell me, was that a nice way of saying I'm a munchkin?

Bleach
Message no. 23
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 00:29:25 EST
On Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:55:30 +0000 Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET> writes:
>> From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
>> Subject: MUSCLES
>
>> The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and
>muscle
>> replacement.
>> I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling
>that says
>> this cannot be done?
>
>I believe that it is official errata.

Hmmm...I'll have to check on that...is that a Cybertech or Shadowtech
errata? Where might I find it (assuming that it may or may not be in my
'collection' of stuff)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 24
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 10:21:49 +1000
> The problem is I want to give the trog both muscle augmentation, and
>muscle
> replacement.
> I know it sounds illogical, but is there an actual SR text ruling
>that says
> this cannot be done?

If you check Cybertechnology, it says that the average strength for all
limbs can only be double the unmodified strength, or unmodified strength
+4. As replacement and augmentation both have a maximum limit of +4
Strength, you can combine them, but the total cannot go above +4 strength,
so you are better off sticking with augmentation.

Ray
Message no. 25
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 11:08:04 -0400
> If you check Cybertechnology, it says that the average strength for all
> limbs can only be double the unmodified strength, or unmodified strength
> +4. As replacement and augmentation both have a maximum limit of +4
> Strength, you can combine them, but the total cannot go above +4
strength,
> so you are better off sticking with augmentation.

Check again.
That passage specifically refers to CYBERLIMB modifications.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"I just got to run SR again after a several month hiatus, and am I STOKED!"
Message no. 26
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 14:07:39 +1000
> > If you check Cybertechnology, it says that the average strength for all
> > limbs can only be double the unmodified strength, or unmodified strength
> > +4. As replacement and augmentation both have a maximum limit of +4
> > Strength, you can combine them, but the total cannot go above +4
> strength,
> > so you are better off sticking with augmentation.
>
> Check again.
> That passage specifically refers to CYBERLIMB modifications.
>
Which CAN go above +4.... it just takes more essence to reinforce the
anchoring points.
Message no. 27
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 12:36:32 +1000
> > If you check Cybertechnology, it says that the average strength for all
> > limbs can only be double the unmodified strength, or unmodified
strength
> > +4. As replacement and augmentation both have a maximum limit of +4
> > Strength, you can combine them, but the total cannot go above +4
> strength,
> > so you are better off sticking with augmentation.
>
> Check again.
> That passage specifically refers to CYBERLIMB modifications.

No it doesn't. The rules talk about the average strength for all your
limbs, and how it works out with cyberarms that have different strength
bonuses. If it worked the way you say , a person who had a cyberarm with
no strength bonus would be limited to an average strength of Body +4, while
a person with no cyberlimbs at all, has no limit. Why would it work that
way?

I know that it is in the passage about cyberarms, but it seems to me that
as other things can increase your strength, they should be able to increase
your average strength for limbs.

Ray
Message no. 28
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:01:07 -0400
>No it doesn't. The rules talk about the average strength for all your
>limbs, and how it works out with cyberarms that have different strength
>bonuses. If it worked the way you say , a person who had a cyberarm with
>no strength bonus would be limited to an average strength of Body +4, while
>a person with no cyberlimbs at all, has no limit. Why would it work that
>way?

Because the limitation on the cyberlimbs has to do with the structural
bracing of the material. Since Muscle Rep/Aug is modifying the muscles that
are an essential part of the bracing, it is more effective. There is a
limit, or course....shown by the fact that the augmentations have a maximum
rating.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 29
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: MUSCLES
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 11:01:06 -0400
>If you check Cybertechnology, it says that the average strength for all
>limbs can only be double the unmodified strength, or unmodified strength
>+4. As replacement and augmentation both have a maximum limit of +4
>Strength, you can combine them, but the total cannot go above +4 strength,
>so you are better off sticking with augmentation.

That doesn't apply though, Since CT was refering to increasing the strength
on Cyberlimbs, while in this case ALL (or most) muscle is being enhanced.

-=SwiftOne=-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about MUSCLES, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!