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Message no. 1
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:15:34 -0500
At 09:48 AM 11/26/99 -0500, you wrote:
>OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the trouble they
>had in making the book and explaining why cyberware subtracts from
>Essence. Basically says, any time you implant something that talks to the
>brain it takes essence because the brain's way of working has
>changed. That's why cloned parts don't take essence and it's why
>pace-makers and pins and such don't take essence.
>I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does work. But then
>realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing, Dermal
>Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the brain or nervous
>system (or do they?) so why would they use essence then. So my question
>is, what did everyone think of that statement on how essence works?

Ok... Here's my take on this...

Mike (and Co.) had to make an explanation for something that was created
and developed with no actual set logic behind it. Tom Dowd and Company
never bothered to define Essence Loss from Cyberware, but there has been 10
years of gear created with no explanation...

So the best solution was simply to come up with an explanation that fit the
majority of the gear. There wasn't any other way around it. <shrug> I
mean,. from a game balance stand point, would you really want something
like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor NOT costing Essence? :]

And yes, there were other solutions... Whether they would have worked as
well as this one is debatable... <shrug>

>Second question...under the bioware section it states that changes in
>Attributes due to Bioware are considered natural and unaugmented. Now,
>the errata for SR3 says that Karma costs for increasing skills is based on
>the character's unaugmented Attributes. And there was a big discussion on
>the list when SR3 came out of whether you can count the Intelligence from
>Encephalon or Cerebral Booster to get more Knowledge Skill points to start
>off with. This seems to be saying that you would count the Cerebral
>Booster in calculating Knowledge Skill points for a starting
>character...hmmm, except now I wonder if Cerebral Booster still says it
>raises Intelligence...perhaps it doesn't? Can't remember from reading
>last night.
>Anyway, what is everyone's thoughts on it saying that Bioware is natural
>and unaugmented.
>Side note: It says characters should not start off with Beta or Deltra
>grade cyberware but it doesn't say that they shouldn't/can't start off
>with Bioware.

IIRC, going by standard Character Generation, there is an order to how
Characters are created. First you buy attributes, then skills, THEN
gear. By the time the Intelligence Boost is actually applied, the points
are calculated...

Bull



>--00DNA
> "...user connection terminated."

--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:11:31 -0500
At 06:26 PM 11/26/99 +0000, you wrote:

>>Ok... Here's my take on this...
>>
>>Mike (and Co.) had to make an explanation for something that was created
>>and developed with no actual set logic behind it. Tom Dowd and Company
>>never bothered to define Essence Loss from Cyberware, but there has been 10
>>years of gear created with no explanation...
>>
>>So the best solution was simply to come up with an explanation that fit the
>>majority of the gear. There wasn't any other way around it. <shrug> I
>>mean,. from a game balance stand point, would you really want something
>>like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor NOT costing Essence? :]
>>
>>And yes, there were other solutions... Whether they would have worked as
>>well as this one is debatable... <shrug>
>
>
>Ok Now another question on this. What is essense exactly. My GM and us
>never really defined it, we allways said "Its what makes you human" some
>sort of "soul". For exxample in the magic section, indirect illution
>spells, says an invisibility spell decives cybereyes due to the essense
>cost paid for them, that means the eyes actually become a part of the
>owner a part of his new essense. Antoher thing is that ok cyberware takes
>off essense OK and bioware takes of something else. Right? then in SR2
>(sorry M&M hasnt come here yet) in Shadowtech why does a mage has to pay
>essense for it, it is suposed t be biological, and it stll talks to your
>brain i know for game purposes it is meant tha way, i wouldnt like to find
>the mage who has bioware and its magic attribute intact(Groovy).
>
>So then again what is essense and what causes its loss, personally i like
>it more with no explanation, tha way you can coserve that mistic
>technological mixture that flavors SR so good.

TBH, I think the biggest reason it's been left, for the most part,
unexplained (The What Is Essance bit, that is) is because there are certain
issues FASA has always skated around, and for good reason...

Let's face it, most of us know and agree that Essance is, to some extent, a
possible representation of a person's soul, or whatever. And this could
lead into some funky areas with religious connotation... And as most of us
know, Religion is an area that FASA is wise to avoid dealing directly
with... Gets a little funky and is a quick way to cause arguments and
complaints...

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net == bull22@***********.com == bull@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:48:22 -0500
OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the trouble they
had in making the book and explaining why cyberware subtracts from
Essence. Basically says, any time you implant something that talks to the
brain it takes essence because the brain's way of working has
changed. That's why cloned parts don't take essence and it's why
pace-makers and pins and such don't take essence.
I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does work. But then
realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing, Dermal
Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the brain or nervous
system (or do they?) so why would they use essence then. So my question
is, what did everyone think of that statement on how essence works?


Second question...under the bioware section it states that changes in
Attributes due to Bioware are considered natural and unaugmented. Now, the
errata for SR3 says that Karma costs for increasing skills is based on the
character's unaugmented Attributes. And there was a big discussion on the
list when SR3 came out of whether you can count the Intelligence from
Encephalon or Cerebral Booster to get more Knowledge Skill points to start
off with. This seems to be saying that you would count the Cerebral
Booster in calculating Knowledge Skill points for a starting
character...hmmm, except now I wonder if Cerebral Booster still says it
raises Intelligence...perhaps it doesn't? Can't remember from reading last
night.
Anyway, what is everyone's thoughts on it saying that Bioware is natural
and unaugmented.
Side note: It says characters should not start off with Beta or Deltra
grade cyberware but it doesn't say that they shouldn't/can't start off with
Bioware.



--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 4
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:48:31 -0500
>At 09:48 AM 11/26/99 -0500, 00DNA wrote:
><snip explanation from M&M on how Essence & Cyberware work>


At 10:15 AM 11/9/99 -0500, Bull wrote:
>Ok... Here's my take on this...
>
>Mike (and Co.) had to make an explanation for something that was created
>and developed with no actual set logic behind it. Tom Dowd and Company
>never bothered to define Essence Loss from Cyberware, but there has been
>10 years of gear created with no explanation...
>
>So the best solution was simply to come up with an explanation that fit
>the majority of the gear. There wasn't any other way around
>it. <shrug> I mean,. from a game balance stand point, would you really
>want something like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor NOT costing Essence? :]

(:
Oh yeah, I know one of my players would be getting totally randy just
thinking of Bone Lacing and Dermal Armor not costing Essence. (:

I thought the explanation was very good and was even thinking it fit for
everything. I thought of Bone Lacing under the rules for Interconnectivity
when they say something about not needing a DNI for Bone Lacing.



><snip M&M states Bioware is considered Unaugmented>
>IIRC, going by standard Character Generation, there is an order to how
>Characters are created. First you buy attributes, then skills, THEN
>gear. By the time the Intelligence Boost is actually applied, the points
>are calculated...
>
>Bull

Ah yes, that would fix any issues like that for starting characters I guess.
Now though, after starting characters, Karma costs for raising skills are
going to be based on the Attributes plus Bioware modifications? What's
your thoughts on that? Good or bad? (:

--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 5
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:26:06 GMT
>Ok... Here's my take on this...
>
>Mike (and Co.) had to make an explanation for something that was created
>and developed with no actual set logic behind it. Tom Dowd and Company
>never bothered to define Essence Loss from Cyberware, but there has been 10
>years of gear created with no explanation...
>
>So the best solution was simply to come up with an explanation that fit the
>majority of the gear. There wasn't any other way around it. <shrug> I
>mean,. from a game balance stand point, would you really want something
>like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor NOT costing Essence? :]
>
>And yes, there were other solutions... Whether they would have worked as
>well as this one is debatable... <shrug>


Ok Now another question on this. What is essense exactly. My GM and us never
really defined it, we allways said "Its what makes you human" some sort of
"soul". For exxample in the magic section, indirect illution spells, says an
invisibility spell decives cybereyes due to the essense cost paid for them,
that means the eyes actually become a part of the owner a part of his new
essense. Antoher thing is that ok cyberware takes off essense OK and bioware
takes of something else. Right? then in SR2 (sorry M&M hasnt come here yet)
in Shadowtech why does a mage has to pay essense for it, it is suposed t be
biological, and it stll talks to your brain i know for game purposes it is
meant tha way, i wouldnt like to find the mage who has bioware and its magic
attribute intact(Groovy).

So then again what is essense and what causes its loss, personally i like it
more with no explanation, tha way you can coserve that mistic technological
mixture that flavors SR so good.

ATTE el morris

The web of the spider surrounds you, you dont notice until its to late. Yes
come to my house said the spider to the fly.

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Message no. 6
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:31:06 -0600
:><snip M&M states Bioware is considered Unaugmented>
:>IIRC, going by standard Character Generation, there is an order to how
:>Characters are created. First you buy attributes, then skills, THEN
:>gear. By the time the Intelligence Boost is actually applied, the points
:>are calculated...
:>
:>Bull
:
:Ah yes, that would fix any issues like that for starting characters I
guess.
:Now though, after starting characters, Karma costs for raising skills are
:going to be based on the Attributes plus Bioware modifications? What's
:your thoughts on that? Good or bad? (:


Weirder- karma costs for raising ATTRIBUTES would be based on the bioware
modified value. In fact, getting bioware might push you up to your racial
max, meaning you CAN'T raise the attribute. I'll have to look into that one
some more.

Mongoose
Message no. 7
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:08:31 -0800
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:48:22 -0500 00DNA <mcmanus@******.albany.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Second question...under the bioware section it states that changes in
> Attributes due to Bioware are considered natural and unaugmented. Now,
the
> errata for SR3 says that Karma costs for increasing skills is based on
the
> character's unaugmented Attributes. And there was a big discussion on
the
> list when SR3 came out of whether you can count the Intelligence from
> Encephalon or Cerebral Booster to get more Knowledge Skill points to
start
> off with. This seems to be saying that you would count the Cerebral
> Booster in calculating Knowledge Skill points for a starting
> character...hmmm, except now I wonder if Cerebral Booster still says it

> raises Intelligence...perhaps it doesn't? Can't remember from reading
last
> night.

I think (Paul Gettle's?) argument still stands. The Intelligence x 5 in
knowledge skills represents what you picked up in the chunk of your life
before the game started. You, most likely, wouldn't have the encephalon
or cerebral booster for most of that chunk. Therefore, you wouldn't get
the knowledge skill points. I don't think, however, that it wouldn't make
sense to get a -reduced- number of skill points; something like
intelligence boost x1 to x3. Perhaps reducing the character's standard
multiplier by 2 would be a good house rule. (IOW, normal characters get
intelligence boost x3 more points, while uneducated characters get
intelligence boost x1 more points.)

> Anyway, what is everyone's thoughts on it saying that Bioware is
natural
> and unaugmented.

I don't like it. :P Does this mean bioware is restricted by racial
maximums? Does this mean that if your bioware doesn't raise your stat to
your racial maximum, that you can't raise it to racial maximum + bioware
modification?

> Side note: It says characters should not start off with Beta or Deltra

> grade cyberware but it doesn't say that they shouldn't/can't start off
with
> Bioware.

Does it say whether they should start with cultured bioware?

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 8
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:29:40 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:15 AM 11/9/99 -0500, Bull wrote:
::OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the
::trouble they had in making the book and explaining why cyberware
::subtracts from Essence. Basically says, any time you implant
::something that talks to the brain it takes essence because the
::brain's way of working has changed. That's why cloned parts don't
::take essence and it's why pace-makers and pins and such don't take
::essence. I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does
::work. But then realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing,
::Dermal Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the
::brain or nervous system (or do they?) so why would they use
::essence then. So my question is, what did everyone think of that
::statement on how essence works?
:
:Ok... Here's my take on this...
:
:Mike (and Co.) had to make an explanation for something that was
:created and developed with no actual set logic behind it. Tom Dowd
:and Company never bothered to define Essence Loss from Cyberware,
:but there has been 10 years of gear created with no explanation...

*ahem*
"Essence is a measure of the soundness of the central nervous
system.... Invasive things, such as Cyberware, reduce Essence." --
p.31, Shadowrun (Core Rules - First Edition), Designed by B.
Charrett, P. Hume, and T. Dowd, (c)1989 FASA Corp.

Is this not the same basic definition that is being put forth in Man
& Machine? :)

:So the best solution was simply to come up with an explanation that
:fit the majority of the gear. There wasn't any other way around it.
: <shrug> I mean,. from a game balance stand point, would you really
: want something like Bone Lacing or Dermal Armor NOT costing
:Essence?

I've been thinking about this some this past week, after hearing that
in M&M essence was being defined by how it impacts the soundness of
the central nervous system. At first blush, it would seem that there
are a couple of notable instances of cyberware that doesn't have
direct neural connectivity: non-retractable spurs/blades/razors,
dermal plating/sheathing, and bone lacing to name the obvious ones.
When you look at these mods closely, however, a few of them could
conceivably have effects on the nervous system without being directly
connected to it.

Sure non-retractable spurs/blades/razors are just simple chunks of
metal/carbon-fiber/ceramic firmly mounted to a reinforced piece of
bone, but to be any use, they must protrude through flesh so you can
cut things with them. This means that they would pass through the
muscle layer. The muscles they pass through would have to be
re-engineered so that they can work around the hard, immobile foreign
object that now protrudes from the bone. What was one big muscle
might have to be split into two smaller muscles that pass around the
spur. When you muck about with muscles like that, you also have to
muck about with the nerves that control them.


Dermal plating/sheathing involves implanting energy absorbing
material into the largest sense organ the nervous system has: the
skin. There's bound to be some loss of sensation, I would think,
which would have a bit of an impact on the nervous system. However,
this is a tricky issue, when one considers bioware's answer to dermal
plating: orthoskin. My copy of M&M hasn't arrived yet, so I don't
know if any changes had been made to orthoskin, but under Shadowtech,
the loss of sensitivity was so great that there were actually game
mechanic modifiers for it. Maybe the question isn't 'why does dermal
plating cost essence?' but instead 'why doesn't orthoskin cost
essence?'.

Now as for bone lacing, this is one that's got me mostly stumped. I
simply can't come up with even an indirect impact on the nervous
system for this one. However, one solution seems to present itself,
at least to me. Since Essence and Bio Index are tied together now,
perhaps some of this non-neural cyberware should really count against
Bio Index instead of essence? Not having a copy of M&M to peruse, I
don't know the exact details of what having different levels of Bio
Index mean for a character, so could those of you who have the book
tell me if this suggestion is entirely unworkable?

<<Snip Question#2, Bioware & Chargen>>
>IIRC, going by standard Character Generation, there is an order to
>how Characters are created. First you buy attributes, then skills,
>THEN gear. By the time the Intelligence Boost is actually applied,
>the points are calculated...

While there is an order to chargen, the last step of chargen lets you
go back, to swap numbers, or even whole chargen priorities around.
I've said it before, and it never seems to sink in: <rant>CHARGEN IS
NOT A STRICTLY LINEAR PROCESS, IT HAS BRANCHES AND LOOPS.</rant> :)

Having gotten that off my chest, let me just say that if you want to
let any Intelligence bonuses from the cerebral booster to affect
knowledge skills taken at chargen, then you better be prepared to let
other attribute bonuses from other pieces of bioware to apply to the
costs of other skills taken at chargen. After all, it's all attribute
changes due to bioware that are considered natural and unaugmented,
not just the cerebral booster, right? Then of course your physad
players will pipe up: "wouldn't Improved Physical Attribute be
considered natural too? After all, if I want to raise the attribute
later with Karma, the cost is based off the total attribute. It
sounds like it's supposed to be considered my natural rating.".

Once you start down that slippery slope, no matter where you draw the
line that says "Ok, I'll allow this, this, and this, but no more"
you'll end up making some players happy and other players not. If
instead you draw the line at "Nope, I won't allow any attribute
bonuses of any sort to affect skills taken at chargen" no one feels
that there's any favoritism.

Of course this only matters if you're concerned with numerical game
balance. There are players out there who are confident enough in
their role playing that they know that even if Player1 has a
character that was 'N' total points at chargen and Player2's
character was 'N + X' points at chargen, Player2's character will not
necessarily dominate the storyline to the exclusion of Player1's
character. Either that, or Player1 may be accepting of the fact that
equal time in the spotlight for every main character is not a
requirement for a good storyline.

If you're lucky enough to have players like that, then the answer to
the "effect of attribute mods taken at chargen on skills taken at
chargen" situation is simple: Does it fit the character's story for
such a bonus to show its effects? A character who had quickness
modifying 'ware implanted a week before the roleplay begins would not
have had time for the ware to have any effect on his quickness-linked
skills, but a character who had a cerebral booster implanted several
years back in her backstory, before she started attending a
university, should probably get a bonus.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 9
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:49:06 -0200
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:48:22 -0500
00DNA <mcmanus@******.albany.edu> wrote:

> OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the trouble they
> had in making the book and explaining why cyberware subtracts from
> Essence. Basically says, any time you implant something that talks to the
> brain it takes essence because the brain's way of working has
> changed. That's why cloned parts don't take essence and it's why
> pace-makers and pins and such don't take essence.
> I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does work. But then
> realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing, Dermal
> Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the brain or nervous
> system (or do they?) so why would they use essence then. So my question
> is, what did everyone think of that statement on how essence works?
>

Perhaps this is more of a psycholgical factor, then. Dermal
Sheating/Plating and Bone Lacing don't interface directly with your
nerves, but they make you more resistant, and end up giving you the
feeling of invulnerability (in a psycho way :) ), and you find yourself
standing in the way of heavier attacks simply because you can, or
beating people up because yout titanium fists make such a nice sound as
they hit bone...

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:05:18 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:49 AM 11/27/99 -0200, Bira wrote:
> Perhaps this is more of a psycholgical factor, then. Dermal
>Sheating/Plating and Bone Lacing don't interface directly with your
>nerves, but they make you more resistant, and end up giving you the
>feeling of invulnerability

And orthoskin, which is bioware (provided M&M hasn't changed this),
is different how? :)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 11
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 02:41:42 -0200
On Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:05:18 -0500
Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 01:49 AM 11/27/99 -0200, Bira wrote:
> > Perhaps this is more of a psycholgical factor, then. Dermal
> >Sheating/Plating and Bone Lacing don't interface directly with your
> >nerves, but they make you more resistant, and end up giving you the
> >feeling of invulnerability
>
> And orthoskin, which is bioware (provided M&M hasn't changed this),
> is different how? :)

Perhaps the fact that it's organic lessens this impact? Compare
a organic fiber-weave with relatively massive plates of metal and
ceramic, or covering your bones in plastic or metal. Orthoskin is still
"flesh" in a sense, though it does change the way your body works
(adding Body/Bio Index).

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 12
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 02:30:07 -0500
Once upon a time, 00DNA wrote;

>OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the trouble they
>had in making the book and explaining why cyberware subtracts from
>Essence. Basically says, any time you implant something that talks to the
>brain it takes essence because the brain's way of working has
>changed. That's why cloned parts don't take essence and it's why
>pace-makers and pins and such don't take essence.
>I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does work. But then
>realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing, Dermal
>Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the brain or nervous
>system (or do they?) so why would they use essence then. So my question
>is, what did everyone think of that statement on how essence works?

I haven't finished digesting this but so far it doesn't sit well
with me for many of the same reasons. It's just such a material answer
for an ethereal subject. And it just hits like a quick fix.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
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I am MC23
Message no. 13
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 03:08:14 EST
>From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com>
>Subject: Re: my 2 M&M questions...
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:29:40 -0500
>
>
>Now as for bone lacing, this is one that's got me mostly stumped. I
>simply can't come up with even an indirect impact on the nervous
>system for this one. However, one solution seems to present itself,
>at least to me. Since Essence and Bio Index are tied together now,
>perhaps some of this non-neural cyberware should really count against
>Bio Index instead of essence? Not having a copy of M&M to peruse, I
>don't know the exact details of what having different levels of Bio
>Index mean for a character, so could those of you who have the book
>tell me if this suggestion is entirely unworkable?
>

".......process in which the cellular structure of the subject's bones is
augmented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and metals to improve
the bone's integrity and tensile strength."
Shadowtech, pg.42 "Bone Lacing"

It seems to me that the cellular reconstruction and/or the adding of
invasive materials on a cellular level, may have something to do with the
production of the red blood cells fron the bone marrow. Which is why they
do not "cover" the bones (you would simply die) and probably why it costs
essence.

For the bones to continue to produce red blood cells there has to be SOME
sort of modification either ro the existing bones (other than the lacing) or
to the brain telling the bones how much/ and where to produce, hence
affecting the "neurological" structure of the subject.

IMHO

Ahrain

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Message no. 14
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:38:32 EST
In a message dated 11/26/1999 9:49:03 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mcmanus@******.albany.edu writes:

> Anyway, what is everyone's thoughts on it saying that Bioware is natural
> and unaugmented.
> Side note: It says characters should not start off with Beta or Deltra
> grade cyberware but it doesn't say that they shouldn't/can't start off
with
> Bioware.

That is because the rules for Bioware are more in scope with the rest of the
SR3 Game Mechanics than the previous stuff was. It's also been what, 9 years
or so since the "Shadowtech Timeline" vs. the SR3 Timeline???

Folks, try and remember the "Dynamic Timeline" concept here, it plays into
effect for material such as that presented in M&M as well.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 15
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:47:29 EST
In a message dated 11/26/1999 1:45:12 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

>
> Weirder- karma costs for raising ATTRIBUTES would be based on the bioware
> modified value. In fact, getting bioware might push you up to your racial
> max, meaning you CAN'T raise the attribute. I'll have to look into that
one
> some more.

Yet another question that was voiced and also missed out.

-K
"Bastard GM" (as dubbed by Doc' ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
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Message no. 16
From: Brent Smith Lucius@****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:39:33 -0600
-----Original Message-----
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.albany.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Friday, November 26, 1999 8:49 AM
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...


>OK, first, M&M starts off with a letter from Mike saying the trouble they
>had in making the book and explaining why cyberware subtracts from
>Essence. Basically says, any time you implant something that talks to the
>brain it takes essence because the brain's way of working has
>changed. That's why cloned parts don't take essence and it's why
>pace-makers and pins and such don't take essence.
>I thought about that statement and said yeah, that does work. But then
>realized it doesn't all the time...Bone Lacing, Dermal
>Armor/Sheathing...this things don't need to talk to the brain or nervous
>system (or do they?) so why would they use essence then. So my question
>is, what did everyone think of that statement on how essence works?


Well my first thought would be it is a result of the nanites wich repair,
and maintain the systems and the toil they take on the body.
Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:23:24 -0800 (PST)
<BigSnip(TM)>
> Having gotten that off my chest, let me just say
that if you want to let any Intelligence bonuses from
the cerebral booster to affect knowledge skills taken
at chargen, then you better be prepared to let other
attribute bonuses from other pieces of bioware to
apply to the costs of other skills taken at chargen.
After all, it's all attribute changes due to bioware
that are considered natural and unaugmented, not just
the cerebral booster, right? Then of course your
physad players will pipe up: "wouldn't Improved
Physical Attribute be considered natural too? After
all, if I want to raise the attribute later with
Karma, the cost is based off the total attribute. It
sounds like it's supposed to be considered my natural
rating.".
<Snippage(TM)>
<Paul Gettle>

Err, but, Paul...adept powers that increase attributes
PERMANENTLY (i.e. Improved Phys. Att., but not Boosted
Att.) ARE considered natural and DO effect skill cost
at character generation.

Before you start asking where it says this, my
recollection of the matter is that this question was
asked on the list and the official answer from FASA
was that adept powers are considered NATURAL for ALL
purposes (so Enhanced Sense (Thermographic Vision)
gives you the NATURAL thermo modifiers, not the
artificial ones...and Imp. Phys. Att. is taken into
consideration when calculating skill costs during
character generation).

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 18
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 03:09:28 EST
>From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com>
>Subject: Re: my 2 M&M questions...
>Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:29:40 -0500
>
>
>Now as for bone lacing, this is one that's got me mostly stumped. I
>simply can't come up with even an indirect impact on the nervous
>system for this one. However, one solution seems to present itself,
>at least to me. Since Essence and Bio Index are tied together now,
>perhaps some of this non-neural cyberware should really count against
>Bio Index instead of essence? Not having a copy of M&M to peruse, I
>don't know the exact details of what having different levels of Bio
>Index mean for a character, so could those of you who have the book
>tell me if this suggestion is entirely unworkable?
>

".......process in which the cellular structure of the subject's
bones is augmented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and metals to
improve the bone's integrity and tensile strength."
Shadowtech, pg.42 "Bone Lacing"

It seems to me that the cellular reconstruction and/or the adding of
invasive materials on a cellular level, may have something to do
with the production of the red blood cells fron the bone marrow. Which is
why they do not "cover" the bones (you would simply, slowly die) and
probably why it costs essence.

For the bones to continue to produce red blood cells there has to be
SOME sort of modification either ro the existing bones (other than the
lacing) or to the brain telling the bones how much/ and where to produce,
hence affecting the "neurological" structure of the subject.

IMHO

Ahrain

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Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: my 2 M&M questions...
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 15:45:00 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:09 AM 11/29/99 -0500, Ahrain Drigar wrote:
:".......process in which the cellular structure of the subject's
:bones is augmented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and
:metals to improve the bone's integrity and tensile strength."
: Shadowtech, pg.42 "Bone Lacing"
:
:It seems to me that the cellular reconstruction and/or the adding of
: invasive materials on a cellular level, may have something to do
:with the production of the red blood cells fron the bone marrow.
:Which is why they do not "cover" the bones (you would simply,
:slowly die) and probably why it costs essence.
:
:For the bones to continue to produce red blood cells there has to be
: SOME sort of modification either ro the existing bones (other than
:the lacing) or to the brain telling the bones how much/ and where to
: produce, hence affecting the "neurological" structure of the
:subject.

And it seems to me perfectly plausible that nanites would be able to
weave those lattice chains of reinforcing plastics and metals
_around_ the Haversian Canals (the channels found in compact bone
tissue that allow blood vessels and nerves to service the living
cells found in bone, including the blood producing cells found in red
bone marrow). Osteocytes (bone cells) are interconnected by collagen
fibers that are hardened by calcium salts. All bone lacing does is
replace those calcium hardened fibers with a stronger material, so it
shouldn't affect blood production by the marrow. Bone Lacing is
merely the substitution of one inert material that forms a matrix
that living cells can grow in with another different inert material.
It shouldn't change the structure of the bones, or the function of
the cells that grow in the bones.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Further Reading

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