Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:37:18 -0700
As requested, here is what I came up with as a *possible* solution to
some of te char creation probs I've been having...

-----

Alternate Shadowrun Character Creation System

To create a character you have 430 points. The costs of each
aspect of a character are this:

Attributes: All attriutes start at zero. Pay points as if you
were spending Karma to raise attribute. Minimum cost for each attribute is 1.
Examples: Str-6 would cost 21 points (1+2+3+4+5+6). Dex-3 would
cost 6 points (1+2+3). Each attribute must be bought to 1 for 1 point.

Skills: A character starts with no skills. To buy skills, pay
points as Karma to buy/raise the skill. There are no concentration or
specialization limits. That is, having firearms/rifles is NOT limited to 1/3
or 5/7, combinations such as 3/7 or 2/3 are acceptable.

General Skills are still limited a maximum of 6, concentrations to 7, and
specializations at 8.

Examples: Stealth-6 would cost 41 points (1+4+6+8+10+12).
Firearms/Rifles- 2/5 would cost 24 points (1+4+5+6+8). Armed Combat/
Edged Weapons/Knives- 3/4/7 would cost 35 points (1+4+6+6+5+6+7).

Magic: Full Mage (formerly priority 'A') costs 125 points. Any
Adept (formerly priority 'B') costs 60 points. Force point to buy spells or
bond foci are paid for out of character points. Force points are NOT
based on resources.

Metahumanity: Metahumanity costs 30 points. Attribute modifiers
are applied AFTER the attributes have been bought.
Examples: Orks must pay for a minimum of Cha-2, which will then
become Cha-1. Trolls must pay for Int-3, which will then become Int-1.

Resources: Pay points according to the table on the back. Point
increments other than five are not allowed. Sorry, but the minimum is 10
points. The alternative is zero resources.

Points Nuyen
(Note, for balance and sanity, the maximum is 200 points)

10: 8,000
15: 14,000
20: 43,000
25: 71,000
30: 100,000
35: 129,000
40: 159,000
45: 188,000
50: 219,000
55: 250,000
60: 281,000
65: 312,000
70: 344,000
75: 377,000
80: 410,000
85: 443,000
90: 477,000
95: 511,000
100: 546,000
105: 582,000
110: 617,000
115: 654,000
120: 691,000
125: 729,000
130: 767,000
135: 806,000
140: 846,000
145: 886,000
150: 927,000
155: 969,000
160: 1,011,000
165: 1,055,000
170: 1,099,000
175: 1,144,000
180: 1,190,000
185: 1,237,000
190: 1,285,000
195: 1,334,000
200: 1,384,000

-------

In some cases you may look at something and think 'well that is
stupid', but the reason things are there is to solve problems I was having.

The way I came up with this was based on two major assumptions:
1: Shadowrun is a game that encourages min/maxing. 2: That most players
min/max their characters... not to do so at the start wastes future
Karma. Now before anyone flames me, I assumed this, so that people that
DON'T min/max their chars WON'T get penalized... lets be honest, 6 rating
6 skills and one 4, is 265 Karma, and 8 rating 5s are 232... this was set
up, so people that diversify their chars don't lose Karma.

Now the way I cams up with the numbers was this: I tokk all char
priority combos, (the feasible ones anyway), and set them equal to each
other. To make a **LONG** story short (8 hours of equation solving, and
15 pages of notes), I solved for the 5 variables. Resources was really
dificult, but I came up with a graph that (nearly) fits all the possible
resource priorities, based on what you have to sacrifice to get, say
priority A-1M yen...

That about it... Comments? Questions? Please? I would really
appreciate some feedback on this one, (from people outside my gaming group)

Thanx

---Tom---
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:03:53 -0800
At 22:37 10/10/96 -0700, Robert Pendergrast (Tom) wrote:
> Skills: A character starts with no skills. To buy skills, pay
>points as Karma to buy/raise the skill. There are no concentration or
>specialization limits. That is, having firearms/rifles is NOT limited to 1/3
>or 5/7, combinations such as 3/7 or 2/3 are acceptable.

>General Skills are still limited a maximum of 6, concentrations to 7, and
>specializations at 8.

This is very close to what my troupe has. We have a page for it at
http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/karma.html , and did it for the same
reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since anything
other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 3
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:54:55 -0400
> This is very close to what my troupe has. We have a page for it at
> http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/karma.html , and did it for the same
> reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since anything
> other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).

Huh? Specializing is the waste! Take the scenario of a player who's char
now has Firearms 6/7 (a concentration, first).
1) char started with 5/7, bought up general to 6. Cost = 12k
2) char started with 6, bought up concentration to 7. Cost = 11k

Now for the specialization (6/6/8)
Spec starting, cost = 10 + 12 = 22k
General starting, cost = 0 (conc) + 7 + 8 = 15k

No matter how you calculate it, it is cheaper to get a general skill than
a concentrated or specialized one.

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:06:47 -0800
At 13:54 10/15/96 -0400, James Ojaste wrote:
>> This is very close to what my troupe has. We have a page for it at
>> http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/karma.html , and did it for the same
>> reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since anything
>> other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).

>Huh? Specializing is the waste! Take the scenario of a player who's char
>now has Firearms 6/7 (a concentration, first).
>1) char started with 5/7, bought up general to 6. Cost = 12k
>2) char started with 6, bought up concentration to 7. Cost = 11k

>Now for the specialization (6/6/8)
>Spec starting, cost = 10 + 12 = 22k
>General starting, cost = 0 (conc) + 7 + 8 = 15k

>No matter how you calculate it, it is cheaper to get a general skill than
>a concentrated or specialized one.

You're using the wrong calculations. Consider buying a skill up from *zero*.
(After all, your character *learned* those skills somehow!)

General skill at 6 = 41 karma
General skill at 4, Concentration at 6, Specialization at 8 =
19 + 17 + 15 = 51 karma

This means that the way to start your character out with the most karma spent
on skills is to specialize.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 5
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:18:05 -0700
> > This is very close to what my troupe has. We have a page for it at
> > http://www.amurgsval.org/shadowrun/karma.html , and did it for the same
> > reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since anything
> > other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).
>
> Huh? Specializing is the waste! Take the scenario of a player who's char
> now has Firearms 6/7 (a concentration, first).
> 1) char started with 5/7, bought up general to 6. Cost = 12k
> 2) char started with 6, bought up concentration to 7. Cost = 11k

Au contraire mon ami. If you want a higher concentratio, not the
general skill, it is much cheaper to start the concentration. For
example, my PhyMage KnifeMan (street name), doesn't want a general skill
in throwing, so much as he wants throwing knives. If he were to take
just the general skill, he'd have to buy the conc up to 7 for 11, whereas
just starting with the conc, it would cost nothing.

(This arguement was the basis for my alternate char creation system)

> No matter how you calculate it, it is cheaper to get a general skill than
> a concentrated or specialized one.

Only if you want a higher general skill. If you want to have a higher
conc/spec, because you don't ever plan on using the general, go for the
conc.

---Tom---
Message no. 6
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:10:47 -0400
> >> reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since anything
> >> other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).
>
> >Huh? Specializing is the waste! Take the scenario of a player who's char
>
> You're using the wrong calculations. Consider buying a skill up from *zero*.
> (After all, your character *learned* those skills somehow!)
>
> This means that the way to start your character out with the most karma spent
> on skills is to specialize.

And the way to start your character out with the least karma required
to buy up to an arbitrary target is to generalize.

The problem is that buying 1 level of a general skill is always better
than 1 level of two specialized skills (in the same general skill), but
according to SRII, buying up the general skill after a specialization
doesn't increase the effectiveness of the specialization.

The best way to insure that you start your char with the most karma
spent is just to take skills as A and buy relatively few high-level
skills.

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 7
From: "Robert Pendergrast (Tom)" <3011_3@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 08:41:43 -0700
>>>> reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since
anything
>>>> other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).

<snip>

> And the way to start your character out with the least karma required
> to buy up to an arbitrary target is to generalize.
>
> The problem is that buying 1 level of a general skill is always better
> than 1 level of two specialized skills (in the same general skill), but
> according to SRII, buying up the general skill after a specialization
> doesn't increase the effectiveness of the specialization.
-
> The best way to insure that you start your char with the most karma
> spent is just to take skills as A and buy relatively few high-level
> skills.

^ That's exactly why I created a different way to create chars... so it
| wouldn't matter how you bought your skills... it was getting to be a
pattern... 6 rating 6, one rating 4.... 5 rating 6...

---Tom---
Message no. 8
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: My alternate char creation system...
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:20:13 -0400
> >>>> reason you did: to encourage characters to be less narrow (since
anything
> >>>> other than specializing is a waste of starting karma).
>
> > The best way to insure that you start your char with the most karma
> > spent is just to take skills as A and buy relatively few high-level
> > skills.
>
> ^ That's exactly why I created a different way to create chars... so it
> | wouldn't matter how you bought your skills... it was getting to be a
> pattern... 6 rating 6, one rating 4.... 5 rating 6...

Yeah - your rules look good at first glance, but I haven't had a change
to try and really abuse them yet. :-)

Of course, the GM could just do things like restrict everybody to skills
no higher than 4... A whole lot (about 15 pages) less calculating. ;-)

James-the-Lazy

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about My alternate char creation system..., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.