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Message no. 1
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 16:01:48 EDT
Does anyone know why the blinding on the new books are so weak? Is it
sub-standard glue? I'm really wondering (and a bit annoyed).

The pre-generated character templates for SR3 are stuffed in the front of the
book and the cover has almost come off. I can see spots in my MM and CC where
they are starting to go. Heck, even the new Battletech books are suffering
from this. Now I watch over my new books like an anal-retentive[1] hawk when
other people use them just so I don't end up with missing pages, etc....

Cash

[1]As the old joke goes: Go up to a anal-rentive person and ask them if it's
hyphenated.... :-)
Message no. 2
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 13:22:16 -0700
> GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com


> Now I watch over my new books like an anal-retentive[1] hawk

<snip>

>
> [1]As the old joke goes: Go up to a anal-rentive person and ask them if it's
> hyphenated.... :-)
>

No, it isn't...but it's actually "analLY retentive." :)

<ducks and runs>

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
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Message no. 3
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:12:50 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: <GuayII@***.com>
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!


> Does anyone know why the blinding on the new books are so weak? Is it
> sub-standard glue? I'm really wondering (and a bit annoyed).
>
> The pre-generated character templates for SR3 are stuffed in the front of
the
> book and the cover has almost come off. I can see spots in my MM and CC
where
> they are starting to go. Heck, even the new Battletech books are suffering
> from this. Now I watch over my new books like an anal-retentive[1] hawk
when
> other people use them just so I don't end up with missing pages, etc....
>
> Cash
>
> [1]As the old joke goes: Go up to a anal-rentive person and ask them if
it's
> hyphenated.... :-)

Actually the best bound books I have ever owned (and meaning no offence to
FASA or Mike) are Palladium Books. I have had a copy of Palladium Fantasy
(1st. ed.) for about 12 years I think. The only damage to it was when my
nephew ripped the cover off, a little water damage (from 2 hurricanes), been
scanned 3 times front to back, and one of the pages is coming off from
stress ware, and it is still holding together!. This book has literally see
gaming war upon war, as well as being literal ammunition for my wife once or
twice. Their books are meant to last.

The main problem with them is the laminate they use for their covers. My
current copy of Rifts was peeling at the edges by the time I was done in the
store carrying it around. But I Clear Coat my books like libraries do for
better protection. (one advantage to being married to a librarian)

If FASA would/could bind their books like Palladium I would actually pay up
to $5.00 more per book, and I don't think I am alone in that field.

Ahrain
Message no. 4
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:16:38 EDT
In a message dated 6/15/00 2:12:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com writes:

> If FASA would/could bind their books like Palladium I would actually pay up
> to $5.00 more per book, and I don't think I am alone in that field.

Amen...one of the GM/players just borrows our books, photocopies them, and
keeps the copies in a huge binder. I'm tempted to do that and just keep my SR
books on the shelf as eye candy (which is a shame....)

Cash
Message no. 5
From: Jill jmenning@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 17:15:09 -0500
At 04:16 PM 6/15/00, Cash wrote:

>Amen...one of the GM/players just borrows our books, photocopies them, and
>keeps the copies in a huge binder. I'm tempted to do that and just keep my SR
>books on the shelf as eye candy (which is a shame....)

Or, if you value the books for the info/pictures and not for the
resale/collection value, you could take an afternoon to carefully take the
book apart - once the cover is off the pages peel right off - and put it in
a binder using page protectors. You can put a couple or three books in a
wide binder...

Jill
Message no. 6
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:12:07 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Jill <jmenning@***********.com>
Subject: Re: My book is coming apart!!!


> At 04:16 PM 6/15/00, Cash wrote:
>
> >Amen...one of the GM/players just borrows our books, photocopies them,
and
> >keeps the copies in a huge binder. I'm tempted to do that and just keep
my SR
> >books on the shelf as eye candy (which is a shame....)
>
> Or, if you value the books for the info/pictures and not for the
> resale/collection value, you could take an afternoon to carefully take the
> book apart - once the cover is off the pages peel right off - and put it
in
> a binder using page protectors. You can put a couple or three books in a
> wide binder...
>
> Jill

I have done that in the past. One main problem...it increases the
size/width of the book at least three fold. Decent idea, I loved having the
pages protected and all, but it took up entirely too much space. Also works
great if you have a grease pencil and wish to add your own remarks to the
book.

Ahrain
Message no. 7
From: Jill jmenning@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:08:36 -0500
At 07:12 PM 6/15/00, you wrote:

>Also works great if you have a grease pencil and wish to add your own
>remarks to the
>book.

Good idea :o)

Or you can take the pages out and pass them around the room. "I need the
gear section!" "Hey, what was that rule about running a car into a wall
again?" :o)

>Ahrain

Jill
Message no. 8
From: Joshua Mumme jmumme@*********.org
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 01:09:06 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jill" <jmenning@***********.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: My book is coming apart!!!


> At 07:12 PM 6/15/00, you wrote:
>
> >Also works great if you have a grease pencil and wish to add your own
> >remarks to the
> >book.
>
> Good idea :o)
>
> Or you can take the pages out and pass them around the room. "I need the
> gear section!" "Hey, what was that rule about running a car into a wall
> again?" :o)

Do any copy houses rebind books? I would be willing to pay a couple bucks
to get a stiched binding redone on my sr3 book as it is allready falling
apart. Admittedly I treay my books poorly but I was spoiled by palladium
publishing.

>
> >Ahrain
>
> Jill

Grimlakin
Message no. 9
From: Aristotle antithesis@**********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 02:58:55 -0400
<Cash Wrote>
"Amen...one of the GM/players just borrows our books, photocopies them, and
keeps the copies in a huge binder. I'm tempted to do that and just keep my
SR books on the shelf as eye candy (which is a shame....)"

<Jill Replied>
"Or, if you value the books for the info/pictures and not for the
resale/collection value, you could take an afternoon to carefully take the
book apart - once the cover is off the pages peel right off - and put it in
a binder using page protectors. You can put a couple or three books in a
wide binder..."

<<<Begin Reply>>>
I've actually done this with the Shadowrun 3rd edition soft cover. However
with a binder, a stack of page protectors, and a 300+ page book.. the end
result was so big and unwieldy as to be a pain to take back and forth to
games. A few weeks ago I made the announcement that I was leaving that copy
at the house we game at for "public use" among my players. I bought a
second copy, and although the cover is holding up good thus far, I can
already see the signs of trouble ahead.

I can't stress enough how much better it would have been to release the SR3
rules book only as hardback. The smaller books are much better about this
problem. I believe that the cause of the problem is the binding method. It
is good for books up to a certain number of pages but after that it begins
to fail.

I am still trying to figure out where/how to find someone who will actually
rebind my book without charging me an arm and a leg. My hope is to put my
most prized book in a cover that does it justice.
<<<End Reply>>>

My $0.02,
Travis "Aristotle" Heldibridle
Message no. 10
From: Jill jmenning@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 06:39:44 -0500
At 01:09 AM 6/16/00, you wrote:

>Do any copy houses rebind books? I would be willing to pay a couple bucks
>to get a stiched binding redone on my sr3 book as it is allready falling apart.

Quite a lot of libraries, especially school/university libraries, send
their old periodicals off to be bound. *shrug* Don't know if they'd help
you out or not, but it's not a bad idea... I have no idea what they would
charge.

I used to know somewhere to buy kits to do your own book binding - maybe a
Hobby Lobby or someplace like that...

>Grimlakin

Jill
Message no. 11
From: Cougar cougar@***.rr.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:12:34 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Mumme" <jmumme@*********.org>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: My book is coming apart!!!


> Do any copy houses rebind books? I would be willing to pay a couple bucks
> to get a stiched binding redone on my sr3 book as it is allready falling
> apart. Admittedly I treay my books poorly but I was spoiled by palladium
> publishing.

I know I've mentioned this a while ago, but when I get a sourcebook that's
going to be used a lot (like the main rulebook), I go to Kinkos. They can
cut the original binding off the book and install a spiral binding instead.
This is helpful in two ways: 1) I won't lose pages unless they're
specifically torn out and 2) I can lay the book flat on a table while using
it.

I love the spiral binding and the whole process costs about $4 per book.
Message no. 12
From: Rookie tmathena@*******.net
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 08:52:20 -0700
> I can't stress enough how much better it would have been to
> release the SR3
> rules book only as hardback. The smaller books are much better about this
> problem. I believe that the cause of the problem is the binding method. It
> is good for books up to a certain number of pages but after that it begins
> to fail.
>

Actually the first release of SR3 was in Hard Back....You just needed to be
one of the first 1,000 people at Gencon 98 to get one.

Ahh the days. I remember when Bull was trying to keep the waiting line in
order....I still have the welt on my Shoulder!

Thanks BULL!

-Rookie
-{Of course I know what I'm doing! :)}-
Message no. 13
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
--- GuayII@***.com wrote:
> Does anyone know why the blinding on the new books
> are so weak? Is it
> sub-standard glue? I'm really wondering (and a bit
> annoyed).
>
> The pre-generated character templates for SR3 are
> stuffed in the front of the
> book and the cover has almost come off. I can see
> spots in my MM and CC where
> they are starting to go. Heck, even the new
> Battletech books are suffering
> from this. Now I watch over my new books like an
> anal-retentive[1] hawk when
> other people use them just so I don't end up with
> missing pages, etc....

All the RPG books I know I am going to use alot (SR3
was the biggest and the first) I get wire bound and
the covers, hard laminated.
Ever need to look at a page and don't have enough room
to lay the book out full and still have your paper for
notes on the table too? Maybe while generating a PC
along with everyone else in the world crowded around
you? Just flip it over with the wire binding and bang!
it's tiny like.
Ever put your coffey cup on the cover of your SR book?
(someone has because my Mercurial book has one on the
cover, bought it 2nd hand) Don't have to worry too
much about it if you have the covers laminated too!
Keeps them all nice and pretty like.
Make sure to put your name in the cover first, that
way it's there permenantly...
The group I belong to love using my books because of
it, and for the fact that I have most of the books
they don't...which they don't have many...*shrug* But
who cares, I'm getting married and my dowlry -is- my
RPG book collection...

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 14
From: Scot Hayworth scoth@*********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:43:13 -0600
From: Raveness Ravensbane
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:06 AM

>they don't...which they don't have many...*shrug* But
>who cares, I'm getting married and my dowlry -is- my
>RPG book collection...


Wow raveness... A dowry fit for a gaming king!

Scot
Message no. 15
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:21:26 -0500
From: "Rookie" <tmathena@*******.net>
Subject: RE: My book is coming apart!!!


> Actually the first release of SR3 was in Hard Back....You just needed to
be
> one of the first 1,000 people at Gencon 98 to get one.

Ah yes, "the LINE". I had John Dukes (Teeg from IRC) standing in line with
us in order to make sure my roommate got one because there was a rumor of
dealers standing in the line who wanted to buy a LOT of them. Never
happened, but it was fun in it's own way.

> Ahh the days. I remember when Bull was trying to keep the waiting line in
> order....I still have the welt on my Shoulder!
> Thanks BULL!
> -Rookie
> -{Of course I know what I'm doing! :)}-

And Rett finally did apologize to me at last years' Gencon for putting me
back along the line.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:45:55 +0200
According to Rookie, at 8:52 on 16 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> Actually the first release of SR3 was in Hard Back....

But it's not the kind of hardback I would want to use extensively, though.

> You just needed to be one of the first 1,000 people at Gencon 98 to get
> one.

There was quite a line at the time...

> Ahh the days. I remember when Bull was trying to keep the waiting line in
> order....I still have the welt on my Shoulder!
>
> Thanks BULL!

Don't thank Bull, he was just following orders... Thank Keith, he got the
line formed in the first place ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: Hahns Shin Hahns_Shin@*******.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 18:10:15 -0500
I hate that problem... so many of the books (ahem, 2nd ed. hardcover
anyone?) fall apart so easily. However, there is one book that has
survived: Fields of Fire. My copy of Fields of Fire has survived years of
abuse, including two canoe trips, various spills and messes, and in one
case, my dog dragging it across the room before we tossed a balled-up sock
at him to distract him (he's really an unmanifested hellhound, I think).
The cover is a bit worse for wear with a large crease in it, but all the
pages are intact, and it feels quite sturdy. It happens to be the most-used
book in our group, too (for the comprehensive list of equipment in the
back).

Hahns
Message no. 18
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 08:50:16 GMT
>From: GuayII@***.com
>Does anyone know why the blinding on the new books are so weak? Is it
>sub-standard glue? I'm really wondering (and a bit annoyed).

I've found this too; MITS could fall from orbit without a scratch whilst MM
has been opened all of twice yet has managed to get a huge scar of white
across it where the covering has been scratched away.

>The pre-generated character templates for SR3 are stuffed in the front of
>the
>book and the cover has almost come off. I can see spots in my MM and CC
>where
>they are starting to go. Heck, even the new Battletech books are suffering
>from this. Now I watch over my new books like an anal-retentive[1] hawk
>when
>other people use them just so I don't end up with missing pages, etc....

VR2 looks all but as good as new as is my third-hand copy of Sprawl Sites
and Dreamchipper!!! Yet SR3 looks like I use it as a weapon on a regular
basis - which I don't. What is the problem with books these days?


Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

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Message no. 19
From: Sidhe tirnanog@****.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:26:36 -0700
||Actually the first release of SR3 was in Hard Back....You just
||needed to be
||one of the first 1,000 people at Gencon 98 to get one.
||
||-Rookie

or one of the people who phoned fasa the morning the extras went on the
website and put in a phone order cuz the website order form was clogged :)

.me
Message no. 20
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:03:09 -0400
At 08:52 AM 6/16/00 -0700, Rookie wrote:

>Actually the first release of SR3 was in Hard Back....You just needed to be
>one of the first 1,000 people at Gencon 98 to get one.
>
>Ahh the days. I remember when Bull was trying to keep the waiting line in
>order....I still have the welt on my Shoulder!
>
>Thanks BULL!
>
"ALL RIGHT YOU CATTLE! Line 'em up! Go forward in groups of 6, have your
money ready, only 1 book per custormer per trip to the line..."

<1 hour and 700 customers later>

"Whatever... Go getcher books"

<grin> That was an... interesting day :]

Bull -- Who never touched 'im, I swear!

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Message no. 21
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:05:54 -0400
At 02:58 AM 6/16/00 -0400, Aristotle wrote:

>I can't stress enough how much better it would have been to release the SR3
>rules book only as hardback. The smaller books are much better about this
>problem. I believe that the cause of the problem is the binding method. It
>is good for books up to a certain number of pages but after that it begins
>to fail.
>
Hehe... The SR2 book was fairly widely available in a hardback version
when it was first released (WWell, wifley beinga matter of perspective, I
suppose... I found a couple copies without too much difficulty, one long
before SR3 came out), but they had their share of problems with binding as
well. I think it was generally agreed that they were just as bad, if not
worse, than the SR2 paperback.

And honestly, I wouldn't put my BABY to too much of a stress test. For
some reason, I don't think it would hold up well :(

My suggestion: Spiral Binding at Kinko's... Works wonders...

Bull

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Message no. 22
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:07:25 -0400
At 12:21 PM 6/16/00 -0500, NeoJudas wrote:

>Ah yes, "the LINE". I had John Dukes (Teeg from IRC) standing in line with
>us in order to make sure my roommate got one because there was a rumor of
>dealers standing in the line who wanted to buy a LOT of them. Never
>happened, but it was fun in it's own way.
>
Rumored, but FASA was only allowing 1 per customer in line... You could go
through more than once, but it took over an hour to get through the line
once :]

Bull

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Message no. 23
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 19:35:28 EDT
Cougar@***.rr.com wrote:
<>

I've got a Kinko's around here, and that whole process sounds like it'd be
good...but how long does it take (out of curiousity) and what exactly do they
use for the new binding....wire, like your average notebook, or that black
plastic stuff I've seen in some company's reports? Just wanna know what I'm
getting into before I go having people whack my book apart :)

Syphon
Message no. 24
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 21:16:34 -0400
At 07:35 PM 6/18/00 -0400, SyphonAC@***.com wrote:
>Cougar@***.rr.com wrote:
><>
>
>I've got a Kinko's around here, and that whole process sounds like it'd be
>good...but how long does it take (out of curiousity) and what exactly do
they
>use for the new binding....wire, like your average notebook, or that black
>plastic stuff I've seen in some company's reports? Just wanna know what I'm
>getting into before I go having people whack my book apart :)
>
I had mine done while I waited... It took about 10 minutes, but only
because it was 1 AM and there was only one guy working, and he was
finishing up something else at the time.

And it's the thick plastic stuff, which is much more durable, IMO, since it
doesn't bend up and stuff...

And, IIRC, it only cost like $5.00 or so.

Bull

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Message no. 25
From: NightLife NightLif@***.net
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 22:17:25 -0400
>
>Rumored, but FASA was only allowing 1 per customer in line... You could go
>through more than once, but it took over an hour to get through the line
>once :]

That's why you take your signicant other with you :). Then you wait for the
next day and a big pile left for the rest of your group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

NightLif@***.net<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife's
Den
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
http://www.mblade.demon.co.uk/den/index.htm
Message no. 26
From: Jett zmjett@*********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:30:29 -0400
Aristotle wrote:

> <<<Begin Reply>>>
>
> I can't stress enough how much better it would have been to release the SR3
> rules book only as hardback.

Actually, I have an SR2 hardback, and the color plates are all coming out.

--Jett
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"This is the worst place in the world. You shouldn't have come here. You'll die
here."
"Stay in the best place in the world, darling, and you'll die there, too."
-Lord Fanny, to Quimper, The Invisibles


"I'll make this clear, I'm only here for backup. And to offer the occasional
advice or insult."
--Jett, undead bounty hunter
Message no. 27
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 00:37:36 -0500
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 23:30:29 -0400 Jett <zmjett@*********.com> writes:
> Aristotle wrote:
> > I can't stress enough how much better it would have been to
> > release the SR3
> > rules book only as hardback.

> Actually, I have an SR2 hardback, and the color plates are all
> coming out.

Actually, I have a SR2 softcover, and the color plates are falling out.
My SR1 softcover is MUCH worse shape with MUCH less usage ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:50:30 +0200
According to Bull, at 21:16 on 18 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> And it's the thick plastic stuff, which is much more durable, IMO, since it
> doesn't bend up and stuff...

I wouldn't bind any game book with those plastic thingies... I've got a
whole bunch of printed-out net.sourcebooks on my shelf with those types of
bindings, and most of them have rings or even whole pieces of the plastic
strip break off whenever I use them. Although it looks like white bindings
suffer from that a lot more than the black ones do (but you can't write on
the black ones with a marking pen).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:50:30 +0200
According to Bull, at 0:05 on 17 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> Hehe... The SR2 book was fairly widely available in a hardback version
> when it was first released (WWell, wifley beinga matter of perspective, I
> suppose... I found a couple copies without too much difficulty, one long
> before SR3 came out), but they had their share of problems with binding as
> well. I think it was generally agreed that they were just as bad, if not
> worse, than the SR2 paperback.

I used an SRII hardcover every session for over five years (bought it in
early '93, put it on the shelf because of SR3 in Summer '98) and it's not
in the best condition, but it's still virtually in one piece. I think one
of two pages are loose and the cardboard strip over the spine is about
2/3rd loose on one side, but that's it. I'm not too careful with books
(though I don't throw them about either) so IMO it was a pretty good
binding as far as SR books go.

> And honestly, I wouldn't put my BABY to too much of a stress test. For
> some reason, I don't think it would hold up well :(

Same here...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:17:23 -0400
At 10:50 AM 6/19/00 +0200, Gurth wrote:

>I wouldn't bind any game book with those plastic thingies... I've got a
>whole bunch of printed-out net.sourcebooks on my shelf with those types of
>bindings, and most of them have rings or even whole pieces of the plastic
>strip break off whenever I use them. Although it looks like white bindings
>suffer from that a lot more than the black ones do (but you can't write on
>the black ones with a marking pen).
>
Did you get them done in the flat plastic ring binding, or in plastic that
resembles the wire notebook binding, just thicker and black?

The SPiral binding I have has help up well, and well... My books get beat
to bloody hell cause I haul them around in a backpack almost daily to game
sessions and such, and since I have the only copy that gets brought to the
group (I'm still not sure how THAT worked out), it gets passed around a lot.

I had the same type of binding used on my MITS playtest copy (Which, since
I had it printed Single Sided, and since the paper is somewhat thicker than
what FASA uses, is the same size as my SR3), and that survived 4 or 5
months of fairly rigorous use (First in playtesting, then while waiting for
MITS to come out :)).

<shrug>

YMMV, and of course it probably all depends on the type of plastic used, to
be sure...

Bull

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Message no. 31
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:45:15 +0200
According to Bull, at 5:17 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> Did you get them done in the flat plastic ring binding, or in plastic that
> resembles the wire notebook binding, just thicker and black?

The trouble is in describing these things through e-mail :)

Roughly like this:

|| || || ||
|| || || ||
-++-++-++-++- (but much longer this way ->)
-------------

The ASCII art is supposed to represent what these things look like when
rolled open; the vertical bits in the drawing go through the holes in the
paper, and the thing is rolled up. The white ones break (probably from
exposure to daylight) but the black ones hold up okay even though they're
the same size and thickness.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:01:34 -0400
On 19 Jun 2000, at 19:45, Gurth wrote:

> According to Bull, at 5:17 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > Did you get them done in the flat plastic ring binding, or in plastic that
> > resembles the wire notebook binding, just thicker and black?
>
> The trouble is in describing these things through e-mail :)
>
> Roughly like this:
>
> || || || ||
> || || || ||
> -++-++-++-++- (but much longer this way ->)
> -------------
>
> The ASCII art is supposed to represent what these things look like when
> rolled open; the vertical bits in the drawing go through the holes in the
> paper, and the thing is rolled up. The white ones break (probably from
> exposure to daylight) but the black ones hold up okay even though they're
> the same size and thickness.

I would not recommend getting this kind, unless you actually
*know* the person who is doing it. Of the several books I've had
treated in this way, only one was done properly (i.e. far enough
away from the spine so that the pages don't rip out).
OTOH, all (one) of the books I've had treated with spiral binding
have held up. Admitedly, I've only had one success with each, but
I do like the spiral binding better, partly because it enables you to
fold the back around behind the rest of book, allowing you use half
the physical space.

You might also consider getting them 3-hole punched, and then put
into a notebook (most likely D-Ring).
Advantages: you can have several books in one binder, i.e. all the
cyberware books.
Disadvantages: won't fit into standard file folder
Harder to read the inside paragraphs compared to the other two
methods of binding
You might look like a CCG player

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly
Message no. 33
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 23:32:28 -0400
Fanguad wrote:

> On 19 Jun 2000, at 19:45, Gurth wrote:
> <SNIP>
> I would not recommend getting this kind, unless you actually
> *know* the person who is doing it. Of the several books I've had
> treated in this way, only one was done properly (i.e. far enough
> away from the spine so that the pages don't rip out).
> OTOH, all (one) of the books I've had treated with spiral binding
> have held up. Admitedly, I've only had one success with each, but
> I do like the spiral binding better, partly because it enables you to
> fold the back around behind the rest of book, allowing you use half
> the physical space.
>

Three things: first, they were suggesting going to Kinko's to have this done, and
Kindo's knows how to do this kind of stuff. Second, I've always found that spiral
binding (like a notebook) has a tendency to get bent and then it doesn't work as
well. Thirdly, the type of binding suggested also allows you to bend the book
backwards.
<SNIP>

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:11:52 +0200
According to Strago, at 23:32 on 19 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> Three things: first, they were suggesting going to Kinko's to have this done, and
> Kindo's knows how to do this kind of stuff. Second, I've always found that spiral
> binding (like a notebook) has a tendency to get bent and then it doesn't work as
> well. Thirdly, the type of binding suggested also allows you to bend the book
> backwards.

I wouldn't recommend the plastic ring-type thing I described. Yes, you can
bend the book backward, but the edge of the page that's inside the rings
tends to get bent, gumming up the whole thing. The only reason I've got a
pile of printed-out books like this is because I haven't found a place
here that does spiral bindings, so the only alternative I have is the
glued strip type of binding, which works even less well because pages
drop out after a while.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Fanguad fanguad@****.rit.edu
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:57:37 -0400
> > Three things: first, they were suggesting going to Kinko's to have this done,
and
> > Kindo's knows how to do this kind of stuff. Second, I've always found that
spiral
> > binding (like a notebook) has a tendency to get bent and then it doesn't work as
> > well. Thirdly, the type of binding suggested also allows you to bend the book
> > backwards.
>
> I wouldn't recommend the plastic ring-type thing I described. Yes, you can
> bend the book backward, but the edge of the page that's inside the rings
> tends to get bent, gumming up the whole thing. The only reason I've got a
> pile of printed-out books like this is because I haven't found a place
> here that does spiral bindings, so the only alternative I have is the
> glued strip type of binding, which works even less well because pages
> drop out after a while.

> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html

For Americans, Mailbox's Etc does both types of binding. Also,
local copy places and newspapers can also do it, in addition to
places like Kinkos and other office supply stores.

-- Fanguad

---------------------------------

"Tech Support, Greg speaking."
"QUICK! How do I change my wallpaper?"
"Well, it's pretty easy. I assume you want to change the
appearance of your desktop?"
"I need to get a picture off my background!"
"Oh, I see... Did someone accidentally set a porn picture
as their wallpaper, and their wife or mom is about
to show up?"
"PLEASE HURRY!"

-- Iliad, User Friendly
Message no. 36
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 11:40:55 -0700 (PDT)
--- Fanguad <fanguad@****.rit.edu> wrote:
> On 19 Jun 2000, at 19:45, Gurth wrote:
>
> > According to Bull, at 5:17 on 19 Jun 00, the word
> on the street was...
> >
> > > Did you get them done in the flat plastic ring
> binding, or in plastic that
> > > resembles the wire notebook binding, just
> thicker and black?
> >
> > The trouble is in describing these things through
> e-mail :)
> >
> > Roughly like this:
> >
> > || || || ||
> > || || || ||
> > -++-++-++-++- (but much longer this way ->)
> > -------------
> >
> > The ASCII art is supposed to represent what these
> things look like when
> > rolled open; the vertical bits in the drawing go
> through the holes in the
> > paper, and the thing is rolled up. The white ones
> break (probably from
> > exposure to daylight) but the black ones hold up
> okay even though they're
> > the same size and thickness.
<snippers>

That binding doesn't allow you to completely flip the
book in half, had my Torg books done that way and I
regret it. I just had a Call of Cthulhu book done,
it's called "coil" bound and the covers hard laminated
(makes for a better writing surface).
Kinkos does it and they'll do it 24 hours a day...

====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 37
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: My book is coming apart!!!
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 11:39:41 +0200
According to Raveness Ravensbane, at 11:40 on 23 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> That binding doesn't allow you to completely flip the
> book in half

Almost, but not all the way, no. It's far from perfect, but until I find
something better, I'll have to make do with it.

> Kinkos does it and they'll do it 24 hours a day...

Something to keep in mind next time I decide to go to the US: bring all
unbound books I have... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yes, I am broadcasting myself!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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