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Message no. 1
From: Robert Hudson <r_hudson2@*****.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!" (
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:29:58 -0500
At 12:29 AM Oct 05 XaOs wrote:



>Possessing martial arts beyond a defined level also requires you to
register too, even today...

>The tone of this comment is not directed at you, Paul: Where the hell does
>this idea come from? Just like in another thread, someone talks about
boxers
>having to register their hands as lethal weapons. Am I the only one who
>thinks this sounds like BS?

>I can see it in a movie, or a cartoon, but not in 'real life'?


To be honest, I've always regarded this as apocryphal "urban legend." I've
studied several different styles, and while I can't claim to be a black belt
in any of them I certainly know people who can - and none of them ever had
to do this. I just called a friend who practices jujitsu and holds the
equivalent of a black belt [his instructor is very traditional and thinks
the predominantly American-designed belt system is silly] - and he almost
laughed him self silly. He then asked his wife [who is a more advanced
student than he is] and *she* almost laughed herself silly.

The upshot of this is that neither of them are required to register, nor is
anyone they are aware of [and they are far more 'plugged-in' to the martial
arts subculture than I am]. The wife suggested that it was something that
"some testosterone-loaded goober came up with to impress girls in the
1970's" and that it had persisted ever since. My friend, being a bit more
helpful suggested that the term *did* originate in the 1970's when the
martial arts craze first gripped America, possibly as a slightly hysterical
response to the pop culture idea that "there were people walking around with
the capacity to kill you with their pinky" or something.

Both of them *did,* however, agree that possessing their skills placed them
at a greater level of scrutiny by the authorities [and an equally greater
risk of civil litigation] should they use what was determined as "excessive
force" in an actual altercation. A call to a policeman friend, and another
to a local lawyer who games with me occasionally confirmed the 'urban
legend' status of this idea - at least in my area of the country - and
echoed the final thoughts about legal responsibility.

Your local mileage may vary - but that's the way it is in Alabama.

Rob Hudson
Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!" (
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:13:02 -0400
Quoting Robert Hudson (r_hudson2@*****.MSN.COM):
> response to the pop culture idea that "there were people walking around with
> the capacity to kill you with their pinky" or something.

Hey! I could kill you with a pinky, and I'm just a student. Um,
that is, if you don't mind laying down and being very still... :)
(It's been demonstrated to me that you CAN apply enough force with just
your pinky to successfully choke someone, pushing in and up just below
the Adam's apple, but, well, it's just not too practical unless they're
cooperating with you :) )


> Both of them *did,* however, agree that possessing their skills placed them
> at a greater level of scrutiny by the authorities [and an equally greater
> risk of civil litigation] should they use what was determined as "excessive
> force" in an actual altercation. A call to a policeman friend, and another
> to a local lawyer who games with me occasionally confirmed the 'urban
> legend' status of this idea - at least in my area of the country - and
> echoed the final thoughts about legal responsibility.

Thanks - that's pretty much what I thought. I know that my
instructor has talked to us about legal issues several times, in conversations
about justifiable levels of force in response to different situations
(usually including the advice, 'If you're female, you're justified in pulling
out an anti-tank weapon and blowing away a man who just gripped your shoulder.
Just tell the jury you were in fear for your life, and they'll buy it. Guys,
I'm afraid you have to ask him what he wants.'). :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 3
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!" (
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:20:01 -0400
> > Both of them *did,* however, agree that possessing their skills
> placed them
> > at a greater level of scrutiny by the authorities [and an equally
> greater
> > risk of civil litigation] should they use what was determined as
> "excessive
> > force" in an actual altercation. A call to a policeman friend, and
> another
> > to a local lawyer who games with me occasionally confirmed the
> 'urban
> > legend' status of this idea - at least in my area of the country -
> and
> > echoed the final thoughts about legal responsibility.
>
> Thanks - that's pretty much what I thought. I know that my
> instructor has talked to us about legal issues several times, in
> conversations
> about justifiable levels of force in response to different situations
> (usually including the advice, 'If you're female, you're justified in
> pulling
> out an anti-tank weapon and blowing away a man who just gripped your
> shoulder.
> Just tell the jury you were in fear for your life, and they'll buy it.
> Guys,
> I'm afraid you have to ask him what he wants.'). :)
>
I am inclined to think that this varies from locality to
locality. Friend of mine is an ex-Green Beret and instructor in his art
(which as far as I can tell is pretty much the same hodge podge the
military teaches).
He claims that he has to carry a concealed weapons
permit. The instructor status seemed to be what crossed the line. He
also said that *legaly* he has to warn people that he is a martial arts
instructor before he unloads a can of whoop ass on them. I'll get some
more details and post them up for you folks.
Message no. 4
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!" (
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:00:50 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-06 11:22:17 EDT, you write:

<< I am inclined to think that this varies from locality to
locality. Friend of mine is an ex-Green Beret and instructor in his art
(which as far as I can tell is pretty much the same hodge podge the
military teaches).
He claims that he has to carry a concealed weapons
permit. The instructor status seemed to be what crossed the line. >>

This would definalty be the case. The need for registration over all would be
set by the state, while a city could add additional requirements, such as we
see here. AFAIK, Martial artists arnt required to register in my locality,
but that just may be for students, not instructors. And given this range, its
up to the GM. If he wants to do it, well, its just one more way a runner can
get iced. If not, its a looser more dangerous feel to the mean streets of the
plex.
Message no. 5
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:06:30 -0400
<Snip Lethal Weapon>
>The whole idea is simply ludicrous.
You know this. I know this, and I'm certain alot of people
on the list would agree. But then there are these people called
lawyers.........:)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 6
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:24:51 -0500
> <Snip Lethal Weapon>
> >The whole idea is simply ludicrous.
> You know this. I know this, and I'm certain alot of people
> on the list would agree. But then there are these people called
> lawyers.........:)

The problem is, no one on the list has substantiated the idea with any sort
of evidence. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm a fan of urban legends (the thing,
not the movie).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 7
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:55:26 -0400
-XaOs-

>The tone of this comment is not directed at you, Paul: Where
>the hell does this idea come from? Just like in another thread,
>someone talks about boxers having to register their hands as
>lethal weapons. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like BS?

It sounds like *bullshit* because it *is* *bullshit*. In no
jurisdiction in the USA that I know of are "martial artists" or
"boxers" required to "register" themselves with anyone.
For legal reasons, in some jurisdictions such as New York
City, martial artists must carry proof that they belong to a dojo
in order to carry their practice weapons from the dojo to their
homes, but that has to do with the fact that New York City is just
that kind of place, and doesn't want people carrying around Martial
Arts weapons casually.
Otherwise, all that *crap* about having to "register your
hands as lethal weapons" is just that, CRAP!
As you said, the tone of this message is not aimed at you,
it's aimed at those whiny, "ultra-macho" 15-year olds who keep
perpetuating this myth because it makes them feel important. And
I'm not talking about *physical* age here when it comes to those
people.
Many martial artists, particularily at the higher levels
of ability, will give warnings when trouble is about to start,
but that's more of a CYA thing than a legal requirement. In addi-
tion, being a highly trained martial artist means that you will be
held to a higher standard of behavior and conduct if you do get
into trouble. It is presumed that due to your training, if you
seriously hurt someone, then you *intended* to commit that harm
and could have easily pulled your punches in order to do less harm.

Shadowmage
Message no. 8
From: Brian and Shannon Seagroves <bcsnskm@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:11:15 -0000
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET] On Behalf
Of Tarek Okail
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 9:55 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"


It sounds like *bullshit* because it *is* *bullshit*. In no
jurisdiction in the USA that I know of are "martial artists" or
"boxers" required to "register" themselves with anyone

Me again....thanks for playing but in Fayetteville NC as well as Bath Maine
2 places I know of from personal experience...you do
For legal reasons, in some jurisdictions such as New York
City, martial artists must carry proof that they belong to a dojo
in order to carry their practice weapons from the dojo to their
homes, but that has to do with the fact that New York City is just
that kind of place, and doesn't want people carrying around Martial
Arts weapons casually.

That is very true and for the reason stated
Otherwise, all that *crap* about having to "register your
hands as lethal weapons" is just that, CRAP!
Wow..with all the time you spend researching local ordinances for the
entire US how do you find time to play Shadowrun?
As you said, the tone of this message is not aimed at you,
it's aimed at those whiny, "ultra-macho" 15-year olds who keep
perpetuating this myth because it makes them feel important. And
I'm not talking about *physical* age here when it comes to those
people.

Not being 15( in age or in mentality) I find this a bit offensive...I guess
what bothers me is condescension and generalization by people who don't even
know the people they are speaking of
Many martial artists, particularily at the higher levels
of ability, will give warnings when trouble is about to start,
but that's more of a CYA thing than a legal requirement.(depending on where
you live
In addition, being a highly trained martial artist means that you will be
held to a higher standard of behavior and conduct if you do get
into trouble. It is presumed that due to your training, if you
seriously hurt someone, then you *intended* to commit that harm
and could have easily pulled your punches in order to do less harm.

Also very true...however it is arrogant in the extreme to make blatant
generalization about Laws in the US at large..when it has been said by more
than one person to be different( just like all other concealed weapon
permits) depending on where you live...

--
Brian Seagroves
Message no. 9
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:17:38 -0400
Quoting Brian and Shannon Seagroves (bcsnskm@*********.NET):
> Me again....thanks for playing but in Fayetteville NC as well as Bath Maine
> 2 places I know of from personal experience...you do

Are these municipal or state-wide laws?

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 10
From: Brian and Shannon Seagroves <bcsnskm@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:21:04 -0000
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET] On Behalf
Of Sean McCrohan
Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 10:18 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"



Are these municipal or state-wide laws?

--Sean

Municipal..
Message no. 11
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:13:42 +1000
>>The tone of this comment is not directed at you, Paul: Where
>>the hell does this idea come from? Just like in another thread,
>>someone talks about boxers having to register their hands as
>>lethal weapons. Am I the only one who thinks this sounds like BS?
>
> It sounds like *bullshit* because it *is* *bullshit*. In no
>jurisdiction in the USA that I know of are "martial artists" or
>"boxers" required to "register" themselves with anyone.

I'm pretty sure there's no jurisdiction in Australia that requires you to,
either. In the last few years I've known three TKD black belts (one a black
belt, two on first dan), three Karate black belts (two were brothers - it's
gotta suck when you can't even use your martial arts training to beat up
your little brother cause he's just as good as you. The other was an
_instructor_, and even he didn't ahve to register.)

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 12
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:02:09 +1000
Lady J writes:
> I'm pretty sure there's no jurisdiction in Australia that requires you to,
> either. In the last few years I've known three TKD black belts
> (one a black
> belt, two on first dan), three Karate black belts (two were
> brothers - it's
> gotta suck when you can't even use your martial arts training to beat up
> your little brother cause he's just as good as you. The other was an
> _instructor_, and even he didn't ahve to register.)

My brother's a second-dan black belt, and he'll have to register if he goes
for third. But as a bodyguard. :) (He's in a branch called Tang Suo Tao, or
something like that, and they're the offical bodyguards of the Deli Lama in
Australia. All third dans and above are eligible to be tapped for duty. Two
of his friends went around with the Deli Lama last time he was in Australia)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 13
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:05:13 -0500
> Me again....thanks for playing but in Fayetteville NC as well as
> Bath Maine
> 2 places I know of from personal experience...you do

Again, I'd LOVE to see this type of registration first-hand. I won't insult
your intelligence here and tell you that it's not because I don't believe
you. I WILL tell you that it's not JUST because I don't believe you. I'll
reserve any comments about the legislature of Fayetteville, NC and Bath,
Maine for the moment. :) At best, I would see these laws as more remnants of
laws that are still on the books just because no one's bothered to get rid
of them. (Along the lines of, say, a state that makes it illegal for a man
to marry a donkey, or something similarly ludicrous).

> Not being 15( in age or in mentality) I find this a bit
> offensive...I guess
> what bothers me is condescension and generalization by people who
> don't even
> know the people they are speaking of

I'm certain that whoever made the comment of people with 15-year-old
mentality wasn't directed at any one individual. I'd guess that the
statement was made towards such people who make claims as being "registered
as a lethal weapon" /in their personal experience/ while being in a
jurisdiction that does not have the laws in question. (I can imagine more
than a few geeky elementary school kids emulating Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee
[more likely], and saying such a thing to try to impress their classmates.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if someone had done it when I was growing
up, and I just don't specifically recall it right now).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 14
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:07:19 -0500
> My brother's a second-dan black belt, and he'll have to register
> if he goes
> for third. But as a bodyguard. :) (He's in a branch called Tang
> Suo Tao, or
> something like that, and they're the offical bodyguards of the
> Deli Lama in
> Australia. All third dans and above are eligible to be tapped for
> duty. Two
> of his friends went around with the Deli Lama last time he was in
> Australia)

This is more of a tradition of the discipline, correct? Not a legal
requirement of a government body?

Also, don't you mean the "Dali Lama"? (I could easily be wrong, but I just
wanted to make sure we were talking about the same individual).



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 15
From: "Brian F. Wong" <rook@****.RAD-INET.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:10:44 -0700
>> something like that, and they're the offical bodyguards of the
>> Deli Lama in
>> of his friends went around with the Deli Lama last time he was in
>> Australia)

> Also, don't you mean the "Dali Lama"? (I could easily be wrong, but I just
> wanted to make sure we were talking about the same individual).

I dunno. I figured he was talking about the grand master of express
sandwich shops. :)
They have to protect him from the evil pizza delivery ninjas.

:)

--
DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ADDRESS. This is an emergency outbox only, I check the
mail here once every 2-3 months.
Send replies to: rook@*******.com
Message no. 16
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: "My hands are registered as lethal weapons!"
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:38:44 -0500
Tarek Okail wrote:

<SNIP other persons stuff>

> It sounds like *bullshit* because it *is* *bullshit*. In no
> jurisdiction in the USA that I know of are "martial artists" or
> "boxers" required to "register" themselves with anyone.

<SNIP rest of your rant>

> Shadowmage

Now glad to know I am talking to somone that has passed the bar for
every state.

Grimlakin

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Thwap!