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From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: My house autofire rule...
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 1995 16:25:17 -0500

Message no. 1 Jani wrote...

> [stuff about suppression fire & full auto]

When I did suppression fire (real life), it was a team of four or more
firing in short staggered bursts over a given area. Shadowrun's suppression
fire rules are basically just holding down the trigger and pointing it at
same area. My full auto rules are pointing it at a target (not an area... a
target) and squeezing off a burst between 2 and 15 rounds (or more if such
weapons exist in the game). I never just hosed down an area with my M-16.
But I did have to train full auto effectively on a target. Not nearly as
hard as Shadowrun makes it, but you will not hit with all the rounds unless
you get REAL lucky or the target is REAL close. You will hit with somewhere
between 1 and (however many you fired) though if your aim is anywhere near
acceptable.
As for Shadowrun being cinematic, of course it is! But SR II isn't nearly
as much so as was SR I. And I feel like I'm taking it one step closer in my
campaign to being real. Still far from real with plenty of drama and such,
but closer than it was without tipping the scales of the game or making it
more complex.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: My house autofire rule...
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 1995 18:12:02 -0400

Message no. 2 >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET> writes:

Bob> My full auto rules are pointing it at a target (not an area... a
Bob> target) and squeezing off a burst between 2 and 15 rounds (or more if
Bob> such weapons exist in the game).

I should point out that there's a reason for the 3-round burst limiter on
modernt assault weapons. Originally it was 5-round bursts but it was
discovered that rounds 4 and 5 very rarely hit the target, so they dropped
the limit down to 3 rounds.

Bob> I never just hosed down an area with my M-16. But I did have to train
Bob> full auto effectively on a target.

USMC, eh? Did you know that the USMC is the *only* branch of the US
military that trains specifically for this?

Bob> Not nearly as hard as Shadowrun makes it, but you will not hit with
Bob> all the rounds unless you get REAL lucky or the target is REAL close.

Which I have stated in previous posts.

Bob> You will hit with somewhere between 1 and (however many you fired)
Bob> though if your aim is anywhere near acceptable.

With a 5-round burst you can expect to hit with 1 to 3 of the 5; with more
rounds you can *still* expect to hit with about 1 to 3 rounds, maybe a few
more if you're very good or your weapon has a low enough cyclic that you
have time to compensate. Of it the target is stationary, which most live
targets tend to not be :).

Bob> As for Shadowrun being cinematic, of course it is! But SR II isn't
Bob> nearly as much so as was SR I.

Well, yes and no. SR1 had some major problems with it's damage codes (an
average person could ignore getting hit from a holdout or light pistol),
but it's autofire mechanic just bogged down badly (you rolled for each
individual round in a burst). When the Rigger Black Book came out it was a
much needed revision, and I think that some of the mechanics from that are
superior to what's in SR2 (specifically, the T# modifiers for 3-round
bursts). But all in all, SR2 is a definite improvement over SR1.

Bob> And I feel like I'm taking it one step closer in my campaign to being
Bob> real. Still far from real with plenty of drama and such, but closer
Bob> than it was without tipping the scales of the game or making it more
Bob> complex.

That's the tradeoff; the more ``real'' you make it the more complex you
have to make it. Even if it adds just one more roll or an extra
calculation, that counts, and that slows things down. As it is, fire combat
usually requires one to-hit roll on the part of the attacker and one
resistance roll on the part of the defender; usually very quick. But you
add just one more roll on the part of the attacker and you've increased the
real-time time it takes to perform an attack by more than 30%, and that
adds up.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Happy Fun Ball has been shipped to our
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.

From:	Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject:	Re: My house autofire rule...
Date:	Sun, 16 Apr 1995 21:16:32 -0500

Message no. 3 Rat writes...

>I should point out that there's a reason for the 3-round burst limiter on
>modernt assault weapons. Originally it was 5-round bursts but it was
>discovered that rounds 4 and 5 very rarely hit the target, so they dropped
>the limit down to 3 rounds.

I know that... Round three is kinda shaky, too. But round 6 or 7 have been
kicked back into hitting as well as some higher. There is no absolute method
of syaing "this many rounds will hit in a full auto attack"

>USMC, eh? Did you know that the USMC is the *only* branch of the US
>military that trains specifically for this?

US Army, actually. Military Police.

>With a 5-round burst you can expect to hit with 1 to 3 of the 5; with more
>rounds you can *still* expect to hit with about 1 to 3 rounds, maybe a few
>more if you're very good or your weapon has a low enough cyclic that you
>have time to compensate. Of it the target is stationary, which most live
>targets tend to not be :).

You'll compensate for the drifting of the gun and bring more to bear on the
target with the later rounds.. If it's stationary, it's MUCH easier <G>.
And if it's moving, the chances drop, but not a whole lot. Not only do you
not know far off the next round will be, but neither does the target.

>That's the tradeoff; the more ``real'' you make it the more complex you
>have to make it. Even if it adds just one more roll or an extra
>calculation, that counts, and that slows things down. As it is, fire combat
>usually requires one to-hit roll on the part of the attacker and one
>resistance roll on the part of the defender; usually very quick. But you
>add just one more roll on the part of the attacker and you've increased the
>real-time time it takes to perform an attack by more than 30%, and that
>adds up.

Mine requires no extra rolls or calculations. Guess I did ok, huh? <G>

From:	P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: My house autofire rule...
Date:	Mon, 17 Apr 1995 08:25:29 BST

Message no. 4 the 'Rat Wrote :-
> I should point out that there's a reason for the 3-round burst limiter on
> modernt assault weapons. Originally it was 5-round bursts but it was
> discovered that rounds 4 and 5 very rarely hit the target, so they dropped
> the limit down to 3 rounds.

BTW, I here H&K have produced a 2 round burst limiter for their weapons,
because they noticed that the third round in bursts tended to go off line.

Unless you're using a G-11 of course.

Phil (Renegade)

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