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Message no. 1
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:55:38 -0500
Hey all, I need some input :)

I have decided to start a new campaign (as soon as the characters in the
current game retire), but I have sorta changed the premise of my game,
or at least the beginning of it.

Instead of having the players create characters who are already
shadowrunners, I want to try more of a roleplayed background. I have
done this before in just about every game I play, just never SR. I am
going to have them create fairly mundane characters (wageslaves, small
time corps, or, if I am feeling really charitable, maybe a cop, corpsec,
or a gutterpunk, but nothing heavy).

Anyway, the whole concept is based on easing them from their mundane,
tragically boring lives into the world of Big Scary Shadowrunners--make
them the innocents, and initially the victims (well...later too, but
that's another story ;).

To begin with they will have very few shadowrunish skills, mostly only
those that would be tied to a mundane character (i.e. Electronics B/R
for a repairman, etc.). The same will apply to both magic and cyberware.
If they want any, it will have to justifiable, legal, and rational for
them to get anything beyond a datajack.

Eventually they will become "full blown" runners, having a detailed and
thouroghly played out background of how they entered the biz. I am very
excited about this as are my players, but I was wondering if anybody had
ever done this sort of thing and if so how it worked out? Also, we
generally prefer the point based system (no mertis or flaws, however, as
I usually dole out the merits and flaws in their bg with out points
or benefits)so are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
them from making a real kick-ass janitor?

Anyway...gotta stop blabbing,

Thanks in advance,

Jim
Message no. 2
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:29:46 -0400
> Anyway, the whole concept is based on easing them from their mundane,
> tragically boring lives into the world of Big Scary Shadowrunners--make
> them the innocents, and initially the victims (well...later too, but
> that's another story ;).

Yeah, and it was the first chapter of the Secrets of Power trilogy! ;-)
Seriously, you should check out Never Deal with a Dragon, the first SoP
book. The first several chapters at least demonstrate a very good way to
get normal, mundane humans involved in the shadows.

> Eventually they will become "full blown" runners, having a detailed and
> thouroghly played out background of how they entered the biz. I am very
> excited about this as are my players, but I was wondering if anybody had
> ever done this sort of thing and if so how it worked out? Also, we
> generally prefer the point based system (no mertis or flaws, however, as
> I usually dole out the merits and flaws in their bg with out points
> or benefits)so are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
> them from making a real kick-ass janitor?

You might try restricting skills chosen to no higher than 3 or 4, and also
limit the number of skills they can take, say ... maybe no more than 20-25
points worth.
Also, you could try simply eliminating certain areas of the skill web.
"Demolitions is O-W-T - OUT!"

I've done this a few times, once I simply let them make the PC's, then we
shuffled them into a pile and randomly drew just the PC's name. If you got
your own, you drew again.
Then I made them start the game without their character sheets.
The whole team woke up naked, amnesiac in a dumpster in the barrens, and
things went downhill from there! ;-)

The other time we did something like this was when a player specifically
designed his PC as a Trid repairman. He ran the shadows for extra cash, but
more often than not he was in his shop, fixing trids, telecoms and
toasters.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"FREE FRANCIS BEAN!"
Message no. 3
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:55:12 -0400
>> Eventually they will become "full blown" runners, having a detailed and
>> thouroghly played out background of how they entered the biz. I am very
>> excited about this as are my players, but I was wondering if anybody had
>> ever done this sort of thing and if so how it worked out? Also, we
>> generally prefer the point based system (no mertis or flaws, however, as
>> I usually dole out the merits and flaws in their bg with out points
>> or benefits)so are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
>> them from making a real kick-ass janitor?
>
>You might try restricting skills chosen to no higher than 3 or 4, and also
>limit the number of skills they can take, say ... maybe no more than 20-25
>points worth.
>Also, you could try simply eliminating certain areas of the skill web.
>"Demolitions is O-W-T - OUT!"
>
Also, I suggest using the points system from the companion, and limiting
the number of points the characters get to build characters. Standard
chargen assumes that these are at least semi-experienced characters, so you
need to limit that.

75 points would work (as opposed to the 100 points as normal), but you
might even want to limit it to 60 or 50 points. Sit down and see how this
works for you by working out a couple quick characters, then decided how
you want to do it.

Also, limit their starting attributes and skills, making most a max of 3
(or 4 if you're nice), allowing maybe a one or two 5's and 6's in whatever
area of expertise the charcter has (eg. if they're a Computer repairman,
then they could have a high Computer B/R skill, and maybe a sorta high
basic Computer skill. If you want them to be truly "normal", mundane type
characters that would have difficulty adjusting to life in the shadows,
then don't allow them to start as a character that could easily adapt his
former career to a Shadowrunning Career (i.e, Race Care Driver, Computer
Programmer, Boxer/Martial Artist, any military service, etc.). These type
of careers naturally lend themselves to a Shadowrun career, as they would
already have some necessary skills taht they would need for their "Class".

This type of game could be VERY fun if you have players willing to try it.
Good luck, and let us know how it works...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 4
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:11:32 -0600
At 20:55 7/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey all, I need some input :)

...

>I usually dole out the merits and flaws in their bg with out points
>or benefits)so are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
>them from making a real kick-ass janitor?

If you like using the points based system, then I would suggest using it,
but with less than the starting 100 points. 75 sounds about right,
depending on the age of the character..
I would also likely limit skills to level 4, and require heavy
justification for any cyberware a person may have. The secretary may have
a datajack, but why does the plumber have a hand spur? You could also
limit starting cash to 200K.. I limited it to 400K in my new game -- ended
up with some characters with higher skills and attributes, but most still
had a large amount of 'stuff', too.
Another thing, if these people have proper employment, they should also
need to have a permanent address, which would mean a few months of any
lifestyle pre-paid..or even a medium lifestyle or up. "We don't hire people
who live in rooms smaller than my bathroom!"

If I didn't feel like such crap I would play with the points system and do
some characters like that up.. ah well, there is tommorrow, I suppose.. :)

-Adam
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
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Message no. 5
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:58:30 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-29 03:11:22 EDT, you write:

<< Also, I suggest using the points system from the companion, and limiting
the number of points the characters get to build characters. Standard
chargen assumes that these are at least semi-experienced characters, so you
need to limit that.

75 points would work (as opposed to the 100 points as normal), but you
might even want to limit it to 60 or 50 points. Sit down and see how this
works for you by working out a couple quick characters, then decided how
you want to do it. >>

60?!?!? That's nigh unto insane!!! Magicians go right out the window(even
college undergrads majoring in Thaumaturgy can be pretty normal), and even if
you went for human average across the board, you'd barely have enough to get
money to buy equipment(it's a reasonable guess that a Trid-repairman would
have at least an Electronics Kit), lifestyle, and the like. Skills would be
reasonably restricted if you allow a max of 4 in anything. 50 points WOULD be
insane, as even at 60 yer hard-pressed to play a metahuman. I'd say 75 is
pretty good, it'll give 'em a slight advantage in the department of
attributes at least.
Unless, of course, you're TRYING to be overly sadistic. In which case, may I
recommend 45 points? =)

Wolfstar
Message no. 6
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:36:11 -0400
At 03:58 AM 7/29/97 -0400, George Metz wrote these timeless words:

> 60?!?!? That's nigh unto insane!!! Magicians go right out the window(even
>college undergrads majoring in Thaumaturgy can be pretty normal),
>
Well... i think the original poster wanted his guys to start as totally
mundane, normal people. this would porbably mean no magicians. I agree it
would be near impossible to create a mage, but...

> and even if
>you went for human average across the board, you'd barely have enough to get
>money to buy equipment(it's a reasonable guess that a Trid-repairman would
>have at least an Electronics Kit), lifestyle, and the like. Skills would be
>reasonably restricted if you allow a max of 4 in anything. 50 points WOULD be
>insane, as even at 60 yer hard-pressed to play a metahuman. I'd say 75 is
>pretty good, it'll give 'em a slight advantage in the department of
>attributes at least.
> Unless, of course, you're TRYING to be overly sadistic. In which case, may I
>recommend 45 points? =)
>
Ok, I saw by your last post that you're new to the list (Expect a welcome
message following this one) so I guess you missed the original post.
basically, the characters are starting out as totally mundane, normal
characters, working everyday, normal jobs. tehy are NOT Shadowrunners,
though they will become such as the game progresses.

So that means: no gear needed. They MIGHT have a holdout pistol that is
kept in the closet at home in case of emergancies, but they would not be
very proficient with it. I wouldn't allow anyone with more than a 1 or a 2
in this skill. No Cyberware, except maybe a datajack. No armor, no
Docwagon Platinum, and not much else needed. i never bother with everyday
gear (basic clothes, basic trid, stereo, etc.), so... there is little need
for cash.

Attributes would all be a maximum of 4, 5 if they have a damned good
reawson, but most would run around 2 to 3.

The character would only have a handful of actual skills. Most everyday
stuff you don;t need/use skills for. Other than that, you're looking at a
couple of skills related to your job, maybe, and a couple skills at 1 or 2
to represent hobbies. But with this type of character, 50 to 60 Build
Points would more than suffice...

Example:
Marie, a 50 point character

Marie is a waitress. She works at Ed Debevics nights. (Incidentally, this
is roughly what I would imagine Bull's wife at before she met Bull, or in
the early stages of dating).

ATTRIBUTES: 34 pts

B: 3 (She's on her feet all day, and has to put up with lewd and obnoxious
customers)
Q: 3 (She runs back and forth between the kitchen and the tables, and
dodges pinching fingers all day)
S: 2 (She lifts trays all day, but nothing real heavy)
I: 2 (Let's face it, she's a waitress, and she ends up marrying Bull.
She can;t be too bright:))
C: 4 (She's definately a looker, and as a waitress needs to have a decent
personality.)
W: 3 (She's tough, mentally. She's survived single in a rough world,
putting up with assholes day in and day out.)

Essence: 6
Magic: n/a
Reaction: 2
Initiative: 1d6

SKILLS: 6 points

Unarmed Combat: 2 (She's taken a self defense class or two)
Street Ettiquette: 2 (You pick up a few things working in a crummy
restaurant frequented by Shadowrunners)
Drive: 1 (She passed Driver's ed in Highschool)
Athletics: 1 (She was on her high school track team, and working on her
feet keeps her in shape)

RESOURCES: 10 points (90K)

Medium Lifestyle
Decent Car
Small Savings account

And that's about it... I can't think of anything else she might have,
other than Waitressing as a skill, but... You get the point...;]

Granted, it won;t be exactly the same with all characters. An accounant
might have a few more skills, computer related, and they might be a little
higher level, but a dorky accountant wageslave who spends his time in an
office in a cushy chair might have considerably lower attributes (Probably
on the scale of 2's for all his physical, and an Intelligence of 4).

50 works out quite erll, actually...;]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Gen Con, here I come!"
-- Me
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 08:27:36 EST
> I have decided to start a new campaign (as soon as the characters in
> the current game retire), but I have sorta changed the premise of my
> game, or at least the beginning of it.

I did one like this....I didn't even give the guys their
sheets...they just listed off their skills and areas of strength, and
I took over....it was a cool effect, but I was overworked...

> small time corps, or, if I am feeling really charitable, maybe a
> cop, corpsec, or a gutterpunk, but nothing heavy).

I'd recommend giving the strongest characters to the more non-power
gamers in your group. It creates an interesting situation.

> To begin with they will have very few shadowrunish skills, mostly
> only those that would be tied to a mundane character (i.e.
> Electronics B/R for a repairman, etc.). The same will apply to both
> magic and cyberware. If they want any, it will have to justifiable,
> legal, and rational for them to get anything beyond a datajack.

You've got the basic idea.

> Eventually they will become "full blown" runners, having a detailed
> and thouroghly played out background of how they entered the biz. I

Unless you play a long time, that "eventually" will take a while
unless you give extra Karma bonuses.

> am very excited about this as are my players, but I was wondering if
> anybody had ever done this sort of thing and if so how it worked
> out? Also, we generally prefer the point based system (no mertis or

Yeah, I've done this a few times. There isn't much you can do to the
system, you have torestrict the players. One thing that is important
is to make them not only _normal_, but _average_. No top notch
computer users, no master anythings.

I'd say focus more on the character then build the points
around...unlike the others I'd recommend using the full 100 points.
You'll create characters with more varied low power abilities....it
'll help keep them alive. Also, normal characters have to worry
about things like 10 billion fees everywhere. They don't normally
live on a month-to-month basis (I've heard a rule of thumb to keep
one years salary in savings....and that would be AFTER the 10%
effect using the SR creation system).

Restrict their primary (work related) skill(s) to 4. SHould only be
1 or 2. One or two personal hobbies (go for interesting ones,
Sailboating, etc. One of the best moments in any SR novel was when
the character in Lone Wolf knew how to jet ski from his childhood)
can go to 3. Everything else should be a 2 or 1. Don't forget these
cahracters (the wage slave ones at least) probably went to college,
so that's a large collection of skills not covered by most runners.

You may want to have people pay for Metahuman or Magic and not get it
yet. You may want to give them 80 points and secretly have them get
Metahuman or Magic.

Focus on details that are ignored in normal games....this player
plays a black woman in the corporate world....racism and sexism
aren't dead yet.....this one is an egotistical elf, who ends up
having his wife run off with his office mate, and gets blamed for the
crimes of an elf-poser, not because of any evidence, but just because
people are tired of his attitude. The next one is discriminated
because of his religion. The other guy wants more than anything to
be unusual, to lead a life of adventure....but he has the most
average life and skills of them all.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 8
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:53:27 -0600
James Paulsen wrote:
|
| are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
| them from making a real kick-ass janitor?

Just say no :) Sit down with each of the players and spend some time
going over their characters, talking with the players, verifying
skill history, etc. If you see something that you don't want, tell
the player to change it. Be prepared to explain why :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 9
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:26:16 -0700
Jim Asked:
>Hey all, I need some input :)
>
>I have decided to start a new campaign (as soon as the characters in the
>current game retire), but I have sorta changed the premise of my game,
>or at least the beginning of it.

<snip details>

>I usually dole out the merits and flaws in their bg with out points
>or benefits)so are there any ideas on how to restrict the system to keep
>them from making a real kick-ass janitor?

Well limiting the edges and flaws will help, but one of the best ways to
lower the power level of the game is to limit the availability and such of
gear they can start with. This works with cyberware as well as other gear.
You may want to also limit skills to some maximum level...say three or so.
This promotes more of a wide range of skills, while limiting how badass
they can be at any one thing. Attributes will have to be looked at as
since they don't have alot of points they need to spend elswhere you may
see alot of 6's for atts. Do what you think best as far as this goes, but
be aware of it.

>Anyway...gotta stop blabbing,

Yeah right. ;)

>Thanks in advance,

Null persp.

Caric-the-my-email-does-too-work-<stomp>-<stomp>-shaman

"Roguefort? Isn't that a smelly kind of a cheese?"
-Porthos from The Three Muskateers
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:11:17 +0100
Caric said on 9:26/29 Jul 97...

> Well limiting the edges and flaws will help, but one of the best ways to
> lower the power level of the game is to limit the availability and such of
> gear they can start with. This works with cyberware as well as other gear.

Another thing to keep in mind about gear is the legality: all legal and
permit-required stuff should be available (if they have the cash for the
item plus permit) but heavily restricting illegal items, as well as those
requiring a security permit, will likely drastically reduce the power
level of the game.

You may want to enforce this differently for different items. Technically,
a knife is illegal and no permit is available for it; that doesn't mean I
would restrict any PC from owning a knife. I would say no if they wanted
hand grenade, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And you can try and you just might...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:36:00 GMT
on 30.07.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> You may want to enforce this differently for different items. Technically,
g> a knife is illegal and no permit is available for it; that doesn't mean I
g> would restrict any PC from owning a knife. I would say no if they wanted
g> hand grenade, though.

What's the problem everybody has with hand grenades? I can remember one
situation where some killer-team threw 3(!) offensive grenades at our
group in a chars flat. All they damaged was the trid. A nice MP is far
more dangerous in SR...

so long

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 12
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:33:14 -0600
At 17:36 7/30/97 GMT, you wrote:
>on 30.07.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:
>
>g> You may want to enforce this differently for different items. Technically,
>g> a knife is illegal and no permit is available for it; that doesn't mean I
>g> would restrict any PC from owning a knife. I would say no if they wanted
>g> hand grenade, though.
>
>What's the problem everybody has with hand grenades? I can remember one

I think the problem is not that hand grenades are over-powered, but they
are not supposed to be easy to find for 'normal' people. Of course, I
don't ever walk into military surplus stores, so I'm not entirely sure how
true this is.

How easy is it to get hand grenades on the streets of a major city, in real
life? ( I would try myself, but I'm not exactly near any major cities :)

-Adam
-
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
From The Jury's Bench: http://www.interware.it/shadowrun/channel
Message no. 13
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 23:24:02 +0100
In message <3.0.3.32.19970804113314.006d89fc@****.lis.ab.ca>, Adam J
<fro@***.AB.CA> writes
>How easy is it to get hand grenades on the streets of a major city, in real
>life? ( I would try myself, but I'm not exactly near any major cities :)

Over here? Damn near impossible, unless you're very good friends with
someone in the PIRA or the UVF. Grenades just don't turn up much:
they're not much use for most criminal activities other than multiple
murder, and surprisingly ineffective even then.

They're very useful for their intended purpose, and not good for much
else.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 14
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 03:47:24 +0000
> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:33:14 -0600

> >g> You may want to enforce this differently for different items. Technically,
> >g> a knife is illegal and no permit is available for it; that doesn't mean I
> >g> would restrict any PC from owning a knife. I would say no if they wanted
> >g> hand grenade, though.
> >
> >What's the problem everybody has with hand grenades? I can remember one
>
> I think the problem is not that hand grenades are over-powered, but they
> are not supposed to be easy to find for 'normal' people. Of course, I
> don't ever walk into military surplus stores, so I'm not entirely sure how
> true this is.
>
> How easy is it to get hand grenades on the streets of a major city, in real
> life? ( I would try myself, but I'm not exactly near any major cities :)

It's not hard, but you need the right contacts. Forget surplus
stores, though. They can sell gear, but not the 'heavy' stuff.
Who'd heard of grenades for 'home defence' anyway.. :)

*IF* I had the right contacts (and enough cash)I could probably get
more or less anything.. up to and including IG's, LAW's, and such.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:27:34 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 17:36/30 Jul 97...

> What's the problem everybody has with hand grenades? I can remember one
> situation where some killer-team threw 3(!) offensive grenades at our
> group in a chars flat. All they damaged was the trid. A nice MP is far
> more dangerous in SR...

Grenades are really bad against average citizens (Body 3, no armor) but
typical street sams (Body between 6 and 15, armor equally so) will take
little damage from them, true.

So use the Companion's grenade optional rules: roll a number of dice equal
to one-half the Power Level, and use those to stage up the damage.
Suddenly you can't count on only taking a maximum Serious wound from a
grenade...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 16
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:57:20 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-04 13:31:46 EDT, you write:

> I think the problem is not that hand grenades are over-powered, but they
> are not supposed to be easy to find for 'normal' people. Of course, I
> don't ever walk into military surplus stores, so I'm not entirely sure how
> true this is.
>
> How easy is it to get hand grenades on the streets of a major city, in
real
> life? ( I would try myself, but I'm not exactly near any major cities :)
>

I wouldn't recommend trying to find 'em on the streets, especially since
you'll run into the Alphabet Soup squads real quick. Army-Navy Surplus stores
usually carry souvenir grenades that have been filled with concrete.
Although, I did find a couple of grenade firing caps in a dumpster when I was
looking for computer parts once....

Wolfstar
Message no. 17
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:36:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-05 06:32:27 EDT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) writes:

>
> Grenades are really bad against average citizens (Body 3, no armor) but
> typical street sams (Body between 6 and 15, armor equally so) will take
> little damage from them, true.
>
> So use the Companion's grenade optional rules: roll a number of dice equal
> to one-half the Power Level, and use those to stage up the damage.
> Suddenly you can't count on only taking a maximum Serious wound from a
> grenade...
>
Ah hell, I just used the Thrown Weapons skill for some. At least then the
NPC's got their threat ratings involved. Had to do something. We also
staged up the damage according to the number of grenades that were thrown and
kept upping the potential area of damage effect.
-K
(I know, it's not how the rules are, but hey-)
Message no. 18
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:05:00 GMT
on 04.08.97 fro@***.AB.CA wrote:

f> >What's the problem everybody has with hand grenades? I can remember one
f>
f> I think the problem is not that hand grenades are over-powered, but they
f> are not supposed to be easy to find for 'normal' people. Of course, I
f> don't ever walk into military surplus stores, so I'm not entirely sure how
f> true this is.
f>
f> How easy is it to get hand grenades on the streets of a major city, in real
f> life? ( I would try myself, but I'm not exactly near any major cities :)

Well, I'm living in a 400k+ citizens city in Germany (which is noway as
liberal with firearms/weapons as America) and it would take me something
like two weeks to get a handgrenade (one week for an AK-47 with 100 shots
FMJ. 800DM or about 445$). O.K. all this stuff is from eastern europe (to
be exact, most is from the former army of East-Germany). Makes me feel
*very* save. :(

bye

Tobias

P.S.: When I made this little get-my-hands-on-weapons test, I was also
offered a Beretta M92 with a laser-pointer and some H&K shotguns.

P.P.S.: Don't get me wrong: I am *not* going to buy *any* of these (nor
would I give someone the info where to get the stuff). I just tested, how
hard it is to get weapons, if you don't really have connections to the
military.
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 19
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:49:00 GMT
on 05.08.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> Grenades are really bad against average citizens (Body 3, no armor) but
g> typical street sams (Body between 6 and 15, armor equally so) will take
g> little damage from them, true.

Yeah, but if your PCs use a HG at average citizens, there is something
wrong, anyway. (All right. I've played a Steppin' Wulf. I used a chaingun
in a mall. I ate children. Sue me :)))

g> So use the Companion's grenade optional rules: roll a number of dice equal
g> to one-half the Power Level, and use those to stage up the damage.
g> Suddenly you can't count on only taking a maximum Serious wound from a
g> grenade...

Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it better
in real life, but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from some gun
firing .45ACP, do you?

bye

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 20
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:46:36 -0500
At 06-Aug-97 wrote Tobias Berghoff:



>Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
>O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it better
>in real life, but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from some gun
>firing .45ACP, do you?

We do it the same.
Successes over the ones needed to make a solid hit goes for staggig
damage as usual. Plain and simple.

--
Barbie


One lived hour is still living.
Message no. 21
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 05:23:42 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-07 04:52:20 EDT, you write:

> Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
> O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it better
> in real life, but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from some gun
> firing .45ACP, do you?

Sure you do. approximately 12% (IIRC) chance of survival. Chance of keeping
going after being shot with a .45ACP is about 4%. With a 9mm round, it's 33%
and 8%, respectively, but don't quote me on it.

Wolfstar
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:40:43 +0100
Tobias Berghoff said on 16:49/ 6 Aug 97...

> Yeah, but if your PCs use a HG at average citizens, there is something
> wrong, anyway.

Most likely, yeah. But nothing a SWAT team can't solve :)

> (All right. I've played a Steppin' Wulf. I used a chaingun in a mall. I
> ate children. Sue me :)))
^^^
Another one of those! :)

> Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
> O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it better
> in real life,

I've only ever applied that rule to fired grenades, and only against
anyone taking a direct hit.

> but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from some gun firing
> .45ACP, do you?

IRL not many people die from handgrenades either, unless they're really
old (WWII and earlier) types.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Pleasure is to be insane.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 23
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:34:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 W0lfstar@***.COM wrote:

W> > Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
W> > O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it
W> > better in real life, but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from
W> > some gun firing .45ACP, do you?
W>
W> Sure you do. approximately 12% (IIRC) chance of survival. Chance of
W> keeping going after being shot with a .45ACP is about 4%. With a 9mm round,
W> it's 33% and 8%, respectively, but don't quote me on it.

That's dead enough for me.

BTW, where did you get this figures?

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 24
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:46:00 GMT
on 07.08.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> > Yeah, but if your PCs use a HG at average citizens, there is something
g> > wrong, anyway.
g>
g> Most likely, yeah. But nothing a SWAT team can't solve :)

There a few brain-based problems you can't solve by putting a new air
condition into that brain....

g> > (All right. I've played a Steppin' Wulf. I used a chaingun in a mall. I
g> > ate children. Sue me :)))
g> ^^^
g> Another one of those! :)

They have very fine, soft meat. And usually they're not even cybered!
Tasty!

g> > Hmmm....we usually staged up with the succsess from the throwing test.
g> > O.K., you don't do more damage with a grenade, if you can throw it better
g> > in real life,
g>
g> I've only ever applied that rule to fired grenades, and only against
g> anyone taking a direct hit.

Makes sense, but my rules is easier to handle. ;>

g>
g> > but in real life, you also don't survive a hit from some gun firing
g> > .45ACP, do you?
g>
g> IRL not many people die from handgrenades either, unless they're really
g> old (WWII and earlier) types.

Granted, nowaday HGs are designed to wound people, not to kill them (just
like AP-mines), but the offensive AP-IPE in SR looks pretty much like a
killer to me...

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 25
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:08:28 -0500
You wrote:
> Granted, nowaday HGs are designed to wound people, not to kill them (just
> like AP-mines), but the offensive AP-IPE in SR looks pretty much like a
> killer to me...
Well, under the theory that it's better to leave an enemy screaming in agony
and need aid than dead on the ground and not worth using resources to save,
yeah.

losthalo
Message no. 26
From: George Metz <W0lfstar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:51:04 -0400
In a message dated 97-08-11 21:49:08 EDT, you write:

> W> > better in real life, but in real life, you also don't survive a hit
> from
> W> > some gun firing .45ACP, do you?
> W>
> W> Sure you do. approximately 12% (IIRC) chance of survival. Chance of
> W> keeping going after being shot with a .45ACP is about 4%. With a 9mm
> round,
> W> it's 33% and 8%, respectively, but don't quote me on it.
>
> That's dead enough for me.
>
> BTW, where did you get this figures?

Ermm, I think it was the September '91 issue of American Handgunner, they
had an article in there about the gripes police have been having with the
switch from .45 ACP to 9mm. The basic rundown was that the administrations
saw similar 1-stop shot levels and a lower price tag, and the cops go by
1-shot kill levels, so they threw in the comparison.

Wolfstar
Message no. 27
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:52:00 GMT
on 11.08.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

K> You wrote:
K> > Granted, nowaday HGs are designed to wound people, not to kill them (just
K> > like AP-mines), but the offensive AP-IPE in SR looks pretty much like a
K> > killer to me...
K> Well, under the theory that it's better to leave an enemy screaming in
K> agony and need aid than dead on the ground and not worth using resources to
K> save, yeah.

That's what todays armys think is much 'better'. I just *love* humans!
They're so....friendly and mercyfull.....yeah, right...

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##
Message no. 28
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: My New Campaign
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:24:23 -0500
You wrote:
> on 11.08.97 KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU wrote:

> K> You wrote:
> K> > Granted, nowaday HGs are designed to wound people, not to kill them (just
> K> > like AP-mines), but the offensive AP-IPE in SR looks pretty much like a
> K> > killer to me...
> K> Well, under the theory that it's better to leave an enemy screaming in
> K> agony and need aid than dead on the ground and not worth using resources to
> K> save, yeah.

> That's what todays armys think is much 'better'. I just *love* humans!
> They're so....friendly and mercyfull.....yeah, right...

Welcome to War v2.3, Beta Test version. Inside you will find more hell than
you can shake a stick at, just like in older wars. We now have the technology
to kill you quickly, but will do it slowly for old time's sake.

losthalo
Message no. 29
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 22:43:47 -0700
----------
: From: Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET>
: To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
: Subject: my new campaighn
: Date: Sunday, September 28, 1997 8:11 AM
:
: Here are the cahracters in this plot:
: White Winger:(me)The pegasus Shaman with a lot of low force spells
: Orkenson:The troll samurai we've all come to hate
: And....
: Gumby: the only phsad to live his entire life on the streets
: Star: Our decker
: Hotrodd: our resident,slightly insane,rigger with the hottest car around
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: I think I kinda Gm different than yall.what I do is: I have a character
: running with the group. and parts of the story are off the top of my
: head.So, I get to control what badguys shaow up,along with the fact I
: get to play to.It really is quite fun.
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
: Here is what has happened so far in my new campaighn:
: It was a cold and dreary day. The Blue Scoobys(the running groups
: name)finally got the call from their fixer,Dezzi,for a run.Naturally
: they accepted because they didnt have any money left from their last
: run.So Dezzi sent the information as to where theyare going to meet the
: johnson. When they go to meet the johnson,they learn,through astral
: assensing that its a dragon.Hey, they dont mind even though they are
: kinda edgy.The dragon identifies itself as Lofwyr and then tells them
: about the run. What Lofwyr wanted us to do was to hunt-down and
: capture,Caimbul Har lea Quinn,AKA Harlequinn. Of course they Had forgot
: that Harley had eliminated the big D. Winger knew that it would be hard
: to find Harlequinn and even harder to capture him. So they asked the
: dragon for a mil=Y= each. Lofwyr just laughed,turned into a man and
: tossed a coupla credsticks to us.He then said,"Do not fail me.I will
: kill you personally if you fail." he then stepped outside and turned
: into a dragon and flew off.Later we went to our fixer and ordered: 50
: boxes of gel rounds,3 net guns,Aa narcojet pistol and rifle,10 clips for
: each narcojet,and rnough tranquilizers to refill the clips many times
: over.
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: So what do the great net officers have to say about my campaighn so far?
: Suggestions,flames,or questions are welcome.

You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than I do.
Question 1: How did a group of runners who have skills that warrant a
1,000,000 newyen each price tag wind up broke?
Question 2: Why didn't Lofwyr use his own people? They would be more
reliable, cheaper, and since he turned into a dragon and flew off after the
meet it obviously isn't a low profile operation.
Question 3: How many scenarios does your team have under its belt?
Question 4: How do you manage to keep an air of mystery around the games
internal logic puzzles when your players know that your character already
knows the answer?
Question 5: Did you post your message with the intention of provoking
someone to flame you with the M word?

Shaun
Message no. 30
From: Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:32:18 -0500
> You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than I do.

Ill take that as a compliment

> Question 1: How did a group of runners who have skills that warrant a
> 1,000,000 newyen each price tag wind up broke?

He didnt care what group,or their skills,and it was the fact that the
run was very dangerous.

> Question 2: Why didn't Lofwyr use his own people?

He didnt want any body to know about it.
Message no. 31
From: Tim Ntoo <tim_ntoo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:26:54 PDT
>: Here is what has happened so far in my new campaighn:
>: It was a cold and dreary day. The Blue Scoobys(the running groups
>: name)finally got the call from their fixer,Dezzi,for a run.Naturally
>: they accepted because they didnt have any money left from their last
>: run.So Dezzi sent the information as to where theyare going to meet
the
>: johnson. When they go to meet the johnson,they learn,through astral
>: assensing that its a dragon.Hey, they dont mind even though they are
>: kinda edgy.The dragon identifies itself as Lofwyr and then tells them
>: about the run. What Lofwyr wanted us to do was to hunt-down and
>: capture,Caimbul Har lea Quinn,AKA Harlequinn. Of course they Had
forgot
>: that Harley had eliminated the big D. Winger knew that it would be
hard
>: to find Harlequinn and even harder to capture him. So they asked the
>: dragon for a mil=Y= each. Lofwyr just laughed,turned into a man and
>: tossed a coupla credsticks to us.He then said,"Do not fail me.I will
>: kill you personally if you fail." he then stepped outside and turned
>: into a dragon and flew off.Later we went to our fixer and ordered: 50
>: boxes of gel rounds,3 net guns,Aa narcojet pistol and rifle,10 clips
for
>: each narcojet,and rnough tranquilizers to refill the clips many times
>: over.
>:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>: So what do the great net officers have to say about my campaighn so
far?
>: Suggestions,flames,or questions are welcome.
>
> You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than I
do.
> Question 1: How did a group of runners who have skills that warrant a
>1,000,000 newyen each price tag wind up broke?
> Question 2: Why didn't Lofwyr use his own people? They would be more
>reliable, cheaper, and since he turned into a dragon and flew off after
the
>meet it obviously isn't a low profile operation.
> Question 3: How many scenarios does your team have under its belt?
> Question 4: How do you manage to keep an air of mystery around the
games
>internal logic puzzles when your players know that your character
already
>knows the answer?
> Question 5: Did you post your message with the intention of provoking
>someone to flame you with the M word?
>
> Shaun

Yeah ummmm right, The big problem with this campaign is unless it it
a one of.....what happens next????
Qu 5 is dead on....
The way I like to run my campaigns is (excuse the comparison) like
x-files. I let my players read some of the source books but i always
make sure I know a whole lot more than they do. That way I can introduce
seemingly useless peice of info when I feel like and then an adventure
or two later introduce another piece that adds onto the first...this way
the player get that feeling that something bigger is happening...this
also generates great paranoia sequences. :]
The one problem with me runnning a campaign like this is that is
takes ages (could be a good point) and also it requires a fairly solid
core group, but it is the way I like to run things and the way I work
best.



Tim-Ntoo
"There's too much blood in my caffeine system."

Ps. Don't let me put you off I at one point was what I would now
consider a M****kin, but I saw the error of my ways and repented. :]

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Message no. 32
From: Tim Ntoo <tim_ntoo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 03:34:14 PDT
>> You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than I
do.
>
>Ill take that as a compliment

Ckl

>> Question 1: How did a group of runners who have skills that warrant
a
>> 1,000,000 newyen each price tag wind up broke?
>
>He didnt care what group,or their skills,and it was the fact that the
>run was very dangerous.

You said in the original post that he didn't give them that much and
just laughed at them.....How much did you give them?

>> Question 2: Why didn't Lofwyr use his own people?
>
>He didnt want any body to know about it.
>
Well Telling "The skum of a corrupt society" isn't going about it the
right way really. How ever you could turn this round, dragons are
"supergeniuses" right? well maybe he does want people to know or
something maybe the runnenrs are decoys for a group of his own people to
do the job instead....


Tim-Ntoo
"There's too much blood in my caffeine system."

Ps. I think I am mellowing in my old age... I haven't carped him yet :]
(android smiley)

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Message no. 33
From: Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:02:35 -0500
>
> Well Telling "The skum of a corrupt society" isn't going about it the
> right way really. How ever you could turn this round, dragons are
> "supergeniuses" right? well maybe he does want people to know or
> something maybe the runnenrs are decoys for a group of his own people to
> do the job instead....

Exactly.the runners would get killed and wouldnt leave any lasting
traces.
Message no. 34
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:49:46 -0500
On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:32:18 -0500 Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
>> You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than
>I do.
>
>Ill take that as a compliment


I tried a method similar to the one you described (running a character
with the PCs), but stopped doing it: it was kinda hard to remain
impartial.


>> Question 1: How did a group of runners who have skills that warrant
>a
>> 1,000,000 newyen each price tag wind up broke?
>
>He didnt care what group,or their skills,and it was the fact that the
>run was very dangerous.


Why? Are they running distraction for another group or something?


>> Question 2: Why didn't Lofwyr use his own people?
>
>He didnt want any body to know about it.


:) And people aren't going to notice a great dragon who isn't bothering
to mask his aura?



--
John Pederson "Oh my God! They killed Kenny!"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --South Park
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
Message no. 35
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:31:46 +0000
> On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:32:18 -0500 Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET> writes:
> >> You're right. You DO run your game quite a bit differently than
> >I do.
> >
> >Ill take that as a compliment
> I tried a method similar to the one you described (running a character
> with the PCs), but stopped doing it: it was kinda hard to remain
> impartial.

Running a character with the players is dangerous territory.
Impartiality is hard, and a lot of GM's I know who've done this end
up with their character coming up with all the brilliant plans that
manage to not go wrong.

GM run NPC's with the group, have this same trouble on a smaller
scale. I had to run two NPC's in my last campaign, and one did
indeed have a "brilliant" idea. (of course, it totally fell apart,
both NPC's died, and the mission was an utter failure, so......)


Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 36
From: Whitewinger <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:38:07 -0500
> Why? Are they running distraction for another group or something?

Yep.
Message no. 37
From: Tim Ntoo <tim_ntoo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: my new campaign
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 06:09:10 PDT
>I tried a method similar to the one you described (running a character
>with the PCs), but stopped doing it: it was kinda hard to remain
>impartial.
>

Just a thought from some of the larp I play...Have the player have
seceret agendas, eg, one of the is a kleptomaniac....




Tim-Ntoo
"There's too much blood in my caffeine system."
ps. getting sidetracked...


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