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Message no. 1
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:01:47 -0700
| After following this thread abit, I had the idea for those of us
| who have The Grimoire 2nd Ed. In the back is a series of formuli for
| creating your own spells in the game. Why don't those of us familiar
| with the workings of these charts [it IS a bit daunting, I'll agree;
| took me a few trys before I got the hang of it], and post any 'new'
| spells we come up with to the list, so everyone else can look at them,
| possibly incorporating them in their own game. I know someone recently
| already posted one of their spells to the List.

Not a bad idea...I could always post Orgasm to the list. :)
It's already up on Loki's page though...got me into a few bars that little
guy did.

| <runs into attic, carrying colored chalk, powders, chemicals, and Grimmy
| 2, chuckling maniacally>

<running after "Hey you forgot your candles and incense" drops beer barrel
"damn" running down stairs after rolling barrel>

| "Yes, Pinky! It's all coming together like two Amtrack trains!"
| ---The Brain, as told to Kohl, who has a slightly
| higher Recognition Quotient than Nick Freno, Licensed Teacher.

Hey!!! I know who Nick Freno is...OH MY GOD!! Did i say that out
loud?!?!?!

:)

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 2
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:29:06 -0500
You wrote:
> Not a bad idea...I could always post Orgasm to the list. :)
> It's already up on Loki's page though...got me into a few bars that little
> guy did.
Okay, I can see this as a popular and funny little spell, but it also has
certain... moral implications. Seriously, how would you like it if some guy
came along and made you spontaneously orgasm?

losthalo
Message no. 3
From: Black Death <ddmaster@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:39:15 -0500
> Not a bad idea...I could always post Orgasm to the list.
:)
> It's already up on Loki's page though...got me into a few
bars that little
> guy did.
Okay, I can see this as a popular and funny little spell, but it also
has
certain... moral implications. Seriously, how would you like it if some
guy
came along and made you spontaneously orgasm?

losthalo

I'd kill'em deader than a door nail.
--
Heaven or Hell it does not matter for I am the soul taker and you are
next on my list.
Black Death
Message no. 4
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:45:22 -0600
Bruce H. Nagel wrote:
|
| You wrote:
| > Not a bad idea...I could always post Orgasm to the list. :)
| > It's already up on Loki's page though...got me into a few bars that little
| > guy did.
|
| Okay, I can see this as a popular and funny little spell, but it also has
| certain... moral implications. Seriously, how would you like it if some guy
| came along and made you spontaneously orgasm?

I'd give him 5 bucks, or do you think 10 would be more appropriate? :)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
Observe your co-worker's interaction with the computer mouse. If he
is using it to manipulate the cursor, he's human. If he's using it
as a foot pedal, he's your boss.
Message no. 5
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:11:38 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-10 02:48:57 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:

> Okay, I can see this as a popular and funny little spell, but it also has
> certain... moral implications. Seriously, how would you like it if some
guy
> came along and made you spontaneously orgasm?
>
> losthalo
>
>
I've got one that has been developed here to make things even more
complicated. Health Spell actually...

Guaranteed Conception
Drain : (F/2)M (even with a complicated modifier added)
Range : Touch (this is touch if nothing isn't)
Type : Physical (actually, it can Mana as well, similar to Heal/Treat)

It was used in the games to acquire possibly the most unique arcana I have
ever had at any time. The Newborn Embryo.

Those were moral implications that still rock the games here to this day
(after 3 months).
-K
Message no. 6
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:09:32 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-10 21:10:23 EDT, dbuehrer@****.ORG (David Buehrer)
writes:

> |
> | Okay, I can see this as a popular and funny little spell, but it also
has
> | certain... moral implications. Seriously, how would you like it if some

> guy
> | came along and made you spontaneously orgasm?
>
> I'd give him 5 bucks, or do you think 10 would be more appropriate? :)
>
>
Don't forget the napkin or handkerchef...
-K
Message no. 7
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 00:29:17 -0500
You wrote:
> Guaranteed Conception
> Drain : (F/2)M (even with a complicated modifier added)
> Range : Touch (this is touch if nothing isn't)
> Type : Physical (actually, it can Mana as well, similar to Heal/Treat)

> It was used in the games to acquire possibly the most unique arcana I have
> ever had at any time. The Newborn Embryo.
Ick. I don't think we need to go here. This sort of idea crops up in games
like Kult, where it does belong, but not here. Unless you are *really* not
playing something resembling the ShadowRun I know and love. Gritty, yeah,
gratuitously grisly and unpleasant, no.

> Those were moral implications that still rock the games here to this day
> (after 3 months).

Developing a fetus for the purposes of using it as magical materials?
Can you say... blood magic? You're really walking the fine line on this one,
lots of mages would take an interest in booting someone who put such a spell to
such uses. I can see you being hunted over this sort of thing, if for no other
reason than mucking up the limited good reputation magicians have.

losthalo
Message no. 8
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:10:00 -0600
At 00:29 7/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>You wrote:
>> Guaranteed Conception
>> Drain : (F/2)M (even with a complicated modifier added)
>> Range : Touch (this is touch if nothing isn't)
>> Type : Physical (actually, it can Mana as well, similar to Heal/Treat)
>
>> It was used in the games to acquire possibly the most unique arcana I have
>> ever had at any time. The Newborn Embryo.
>Ick. I don't think we need to go here. This sort of idea crops up in games
>like Kult, where it does belong, but not here. Unless you are *really* not
>playing something resembling the ShadowRun I know and love. Gritty, yeah,
>gratuitously grisly and unpleasant, no.

Hrm. Sounds rather fun, actually.. Although I think my view of the
Shadowrun world is a bit more..err.. well, gruesome and nasty. FASA's
Shadowrun is a bit more fluffy and magical than I like.
In todays world, people are stealing/killing/aborting babies.. using it for
some magical purposes is probably more honourable than that, IMO.

-Aj
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
Message no. 9
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 01:40:48 -0500
You wrote:
> Hrm. Sounds rather fun, actually.. Although I think my view of the
> Shadowrun world is a bit more..err.. well, gruesome and nasty. FASA's
> Shadowrun is a bit more fluffy and magical than I like.
> In todays world, people are stealing/killing/aborting babies.. using it for
> some magical purposes is probably more honourable than that, IMO.
Missed that you were using *aborted*fetuses in this... No, I don't have any
real problem with already-dead matter being used, just prodicing fetuses for
the sake of magical processes. That goes against the grain, to me...
Maybe, if the 'donor' volunteered. But why would such material be useful? It
still comes real close to blood magic, sacrifice of living things, which is
quite verboten in SR as-written.

losthalo
Message no. 10
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 02:28:28 -0600
At 01:40 7/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>You wrote:
>> Hrm. Sounds rather fun, actually.. Although I think my view of the
>> Shadowrun world is a bit more..err.. well, gruesome and nasty. FASA's
>> Shadowrun is a bit more fluffy and magical than I like.
>> In todays world, people are stealing/killing/aborting babies.. using it for
>> some magical purposes is probably more honourable than that, IMO.
>Missed that you were using *aborted*fetuses in this... No, I don't have any
>real problem with already-dead matter being used, just prodicing fetuses for
>the sake of magical processes. That goes against the grain, to me...

I wasn't the one that made the original post, so I can't say if they used
already aborted fetuses or not.
While I Personally have a problem with people aborting babies, killing them
upon birth, killing in general, I can accept it as something that happens.
And in 205x, it would probably be more and more frequent.

This is where the 'adult discussion disclaimer' part of the FAQ applies, I
think..:)
Wait, I'm not officially an adult.. eek!

-Adam
--
http://shadowrun.home.ml.org \ TSS Productions \ The Shadowrun Supplemental
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ WildAngle@******** \ fro@***.ab.ca
-
"Can I have a cup of angst to go with my un-happy meal?" -- Hi & Lois
Message no. 11
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:58:04 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-11 13:34:51 EDT, fro@***.AB.CA (Adam J) writes:

> >> Guaranteed Conception
> >> Drain : (F/2)M (even with a complicated modifier added)
> >> Range : Touch (this is touch if nothing isn't)
> >> Type : Physical (actually, it can Mana as well, similar to Heal/Treat)
> >
> >> It was used in the games to acquire possibly the most unique arcana I
> have
> >> ever had at any time. The Newborn Embryo.

<snipped sections of a 'complaint'.>

Sorry, I really didn't mean to offend. I was just tossing this out. And, as
I mentioned in my original posting, it (the act of the spell being used a
particular way) has caused ripples that continue to this day.

>
> Hrm. Sounds rather fun, actually.. Although I think my view of the
> Shadowrun world is a bit more..err.. well, gruesome and nasty. FASA's
> Shadowrun is a bit more fluffy and magical than I like.
> In todays world, people are stealing/killing/aborting babies.. using it
for
> some magical purposes is probably more honourable than that, IMO.
>
> -Aj

And, actually Aj, the idea of Shadowrun being a bit to "fluffy", well, I
guess I can see where you are saying, however, look at the implications.

SR had to pass the censorhip rules somehow...honourable doesn't exist in this
example...
-K
Message no. 12
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:10:59 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-11 15:10:22 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:

> Missed that you were using *aborted*fetuses in this... No, I don't have any
> real problem with already-dead matter being used, just prodicing fetuses
for
> the sake of magical processes. That goes against the grain, to me...
> Maybe, if the 'donor' volunteered. But why would such material be useful?

> It
> still comes real close to blood magic, sacrifice of living things, which
is
> quite verboten in SR as-written.
>
> losthalo
>
You are correct in that rules notification. Which is the other reason I am
desirous of Earthdawn never getting a really good conversion to SR going.
The ED system uses blood magic of every kind I think.
-K
Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:01:35 -0700
| > >> It was used in the games to acquire possibly the most unique arcana
I
| > have
| > >> ever had at any time. The Newborn Embryo.
|
| <snipped sections of a 'complaint'.>
|
| Sorry, I really didn't mean to offend. I was just tossing this out.
And, as
| I mentioned in my original posting, it (the act of the spell being used a
| particular way) has caused ripples that continue to this day.

It is a tad distasteful, but I think that if it hit home with your
characters then it was a good plot device. Shadowrun isn't a pleasant
setting and certain nasties are going to occur. If this was a PC that did
it I would have some definate long term effects of his using the particular
arcana however. Bad Karma in the extreme chummer.

Remind me of the time that we had to save a virgin from being
sacrificed...we had gotten the girl, but we were on the run. One of our
runners figured that if she wasn't a virgin then well you can gather the
rest. Distasteful? Yes. An adult theme? Yes. Did it work in our game? At
the time yes. Completely necessary? Who knows, but it did add some things
that we got to bounce around role-playing wise.

| >
| > Hrm. Sounds rather fun, actually.. Although I think my view of the
| > Shadowrun world is a bit more..err.. well, gruesome and nasty. FASA's
| > Shadowrun is a bit more fluffy and magical than I like.
| > In todays world, people are stealing/killing/aborting babies.. using
it
| for
| > some magical purposes is probably more honourable than that, IMO.

I agree...SR is a nasty nasty place, filled with even nastier people.

| And, actually Aj, the idea of Shadowrun being a bit to "fluffy", well, I
| guess I can see where you are saying, however, look at the implications.
|
| SR had to pass the censorhip rules somehow...honourable doesn't exist in
this
| example...

I think that SR has lot some of its grit over the years, but lets face it
deep down we all want to be the hero...I think that you can only be a jaded
self centered schmuck-o for so long before you develope morals to save
yourself from being bored if nothing else.


-Caric

"Why is there no blue food!!!!"
-George Carlin
Message no. 14
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:35:23 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-11 19:13:44 EDT, NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU
(Bruce H. Nagel) writes:

>
> Developing a fetus for the purposes of using it as magical materials?
> Can you say... blood magic? You're really walking the fine line on this
one,
>
> lots of mages would take an interest in booting someone who put such a
spell
> to
> such uses. I can see you being hunted over this sort of thing, if for no
> other
> reason than mucking up the limited good reputation magicians have.
>
> losthalo
>
>
Have you ever read "the Misenchanted Sword?" (author is forgotten, my copy
was stolen)...it was the requirement for a youth spell.

-K
Message no. 15
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:05:32 +0100
|You are correct in that rules notification. Which is the other reason I am
|desirous of Earthdawn never getting a really good conversion to SR going.
| The ED system uses blood magic of every kind I think.

True, but Blood Magic also exists in SR.
The only types of blood magic in EarthDawn available to Player Characters is
OATH magic, where they swear on their blood on something.
If they keep the Oath for a year, some bonus is gained. If they break the
oath, they gain a permanent scar on their body (usually forehead) in the
shape recognisable as OATHBREAKER....

All nasty forms of Blood Magic are for NPC use only...
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:19:47 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-12 20:23:25 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> True, but Blood Magic also exists in SR.
> The only types of blood magic in EarthDawn available to Player Characters
is
> OATH magic, where they swear on their blood on something.
> If they keep the Oath for a year, some bonus is gained. If they break the
> oath, they gain a permanent scar on their body (usually forehead) in the
> shape recognisable as OATHBREAKER....
>
> All nasty forms of Blood Magic are for NPC use only...
>
Unless of course the game group wants to get into the truly Gray or Shadow
areas of magic as well. Level of Game Play (NOT Wanting to starting that
argument back up again)...not with standing.
-Keith
Message no. 17
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:18:06 PDT
>True, but Blood Magic also exists in SR.
>The only types of blood magic in EarthDawn available to Player Characters is
>OATH magic, where they swear on their blood on something.
>If they keep the Oath for a year, some bonus is gained. If they break the
>oath, they gain a permanent scar on their body (usually forehead) in the
>shape recognisable as OATHBREAKER....
>
>All nasty forms of Blood Magic are for NPC use only...

Actually, lots of things require characters (P and NP) to take
permanent damage.

Try telling me that's not blood magic.
Message no. 18
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:17:44 -0500
You wrote:
> |You are correct in that rules notification. Which is the other reason I am
> |desirous of Earthdawn never getting a really good conversion to SR going.
> | The ED system uses blood magic of every kind I think.

> True, but Blood Magic also exists in SR.
> The only types of blood magic in EarthDawn available to Player Characters is
> OATH magic, where they swear on their blood on something.
> If they keep the Oath for a year, some bonus is gained. If they break the
> oath, they gain a permanent scar on their body (usually forehead) in the
> shape recognisable as OATHBREAKER....

Ummm, no. What about Blood Charms, and abilities from the Companion for
gaining abilities in certain Disciplines, and some spellcasting abilities, and
Strain, and... get the idea? Lots of things in ED are blood magic, it's in a
lot of different forms.

losthalo, sort-of running ED right now...
Message no. 19
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:19:02 +0100
|Actually, lots of things require characters (P and NP) to take
|permanent damage.
|
|Try telling me that's not blood magic.
|

OK, so, there are a few Magic Items that can be regarded as Blood Magic,
like the Blood Pebble armour and the astral eye, etc, etc...

The point is, it's a voluntary sacrifice on the part of the character.

Evil blood magic is the involuntary sacrifice type of magic....
(And the type that draws the Horrors)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:25:35 +0100
|Ummm, no. What about Blood Charms, and abilities from the Companion for
|gaining abilities in certain Disciplines, and some spellcasting abilities, and
|Strain, and... get the idea? Lots of things in ED are blood magic, it's in a
|lot of different forms.

I'd hardly call Strain "Blood Magic".
If that were so, every mage who ever cast a spell or summoned a spirit was
playing with Blood Magic.

Strain is much closer to drain than anything else....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 21
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:27:06 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-13 07:20:20 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> The point is, it's a voluntary sacrifice on the part of the character.

So if a player character were to get into the "Voluntary Blood Magic" stuff,
it wouldn't be evil? That is kind of the "thread" I was looking for.

>
> Evil blood magic is the involuntary sacrifice type of magic....
> (And the type that draws the Horrors)

WRONG!!! the Great Ghost Dance wasn't truly evil (end justifying the means
and all) and was completely voluntary on the part of the dancers. It got
their attention. Of course, so did the Sears Tower Incident...
-Keith
Message no. 22
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 21:02:36 +0100
|
|In a message dated 97-07-13 07:20:20 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
|writes:
|
|>
|> The point is, it's a voluntary sacrifice on the part of the character.
|
|So if a player character were to get into the "Voluntary Blood Magic" stuff,
|it wouldn't be evil? That is kind of the "thread" I was looking for.

It's not concidered evil for characters to voluntarily sacrifice large bits
of themselves to technology, is it? (Essence vs Cyber)

It's not evil for characters to voluntarily sacrifice Karma to free spirits,
is it?

Why should GOOD blood magic be different?

|>
|> Evil blood magic is the involuntary sacrifice type of magic....
|> (And the type that draws the Horrors)
|
|WRONG!!! the Great Ghost Dance wasn't truly evil (end justifying the means
|and all) and was completely voluntary on the part of the dancers. It got
|their attention. Of course, so did the Sears Tower Incident...

Will you stop saying "WRONG!!!" as if you're jumping up and down with glee!
And again, no, I'm not wrong.
The Ghost dance drew the horrors because of the sheer magnitude of it all.
EVIL BLOOD magic can draw horrors in much smaller doses.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:54:29 -0500
You wrote:
> |WRONG!!! the Great Ghost Dance wasn't truly evil (end justifying the means
> |and all) and was completely voluntary on the part of the dancers. It got
> |their attention. Of course, so did the Sears Tower Incident...

> Will you stop saying "WRONG!!!" as if you're jumping up and down with glee!
> And again, no, I'm not wrong.
> The Ghost dance drew the horrors because of the sheer magnitude of it all.
> EVIL BLOOD magic can draw horrors in much smaller doses.....
I agree. the 'wrong' thing is annoying, especially when you're talking about
something which can be seen many different ways (the case with most
moral/ethical situations). The Ghost Dance was used to give the Amerinds power
over those who had oppressed them, and used the means of endangering the lives
of many, many UCAS citizens. That is not only means-to-an-end, that is the
epitome of means-to-an-end: terrorism. I threaten to do X if you don't do Y.
Those citizens had nothing to do with the power struggle, and yet were being
threatened with magical might and ordered to give up their homes. Say that
wasn't at least a little evil, go ahead. Maybe justified to Americans who'd
been shoved off their land and lost much to caucasians, but does that justify
holding millions hostage? I'm wandering, this has nothing to do with the Blood
Magic thread I'm afraid, but... don't go shouting WRONG! in my ear when I have
some idea of what I'm talking about. Don't do it to others, either, they'll
make you look bad.

losthalo
"This is your Uncle Larr here, I'm just trynna help you people"
--some stand-up comic
Message no. 24
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Mysticism [New Spells for Old,)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:00:42 EDT
On Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:31:46 -0500 "Bruce H. Nagel"
<NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:


<<I don't talk to my boss the way I do to other people in general anyway.
That's just another example. But it's been a long time since a curse
word really actually shocked me. Fourth grade or so, maybe.>>


'Shock' is not the same as 'offend'. I can be quite offended without
being shocked (for example, telling me to f*ck off will offend me
greatly, but it won't necessarily shock me, depending on the person). I'm
just more likely to be more offended if I'm shocked by it at the same
time.


<<losthalo, who got his foul-word education early>>


Didn't we all?


--
-Canthros, who learned most of those really neat words by 5th grade at
the latest (and picked up his worst cases of foul-mouth while with the
BSA:)
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

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Thwap!