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Message no. 1
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 11:39:57 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Allen Versfeld wrote:

> room at MIT&M, with professor-by-day-shadowrunner-by-night type

Why is it that I know I've seen the name MIT&M but also MIT&T??

Is it FASA who (which??) "messed up" and in different books has used the
two names?

-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
Nihil Antequam Temetum
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:44:18 -0400
At 11:39 AM 5/22/00 +0200, Peter Kristiansen wrote:
>On Mon, 22 May 2000, Allen Versfeld wrote:
>
>> room at MIT&M, with professor-by-day-shadowrunner-by-night type
>
>Why is it that I know I've seen the name MIT&M but also MIT&T??
>
>Is it FASA who (which??) "messed up" and in different books has used the
>two names?
>
I *think* the "history" goes like this: When they first started doing
"magic" classes at MIT, they called it MIT&M (M for Magic), but a few years
later changed it to MIT&T (T for Thaumaturgy) for some reason. Maybe
because it sounded more dignified, maybe because it fit abbriviation
better, or maybe because Thaumaturgy possibly covers more? (I'm not real
sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in realtion to
Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I messed that up :))

Bull-the-"I could be wrong though"-Ork-Decker


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Message no. 3
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:47:05 +0200
According to Bull, at 23:44 on 23 May 00, the word on the street was...

> (I'm not real sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in
> realtion to Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I
> messed that up :))

My (Dutch) dictionary defines "thaumaturg" as "someone who performs
miracles" (my translation). Apparently, it's from the Greek "thauma"
meaning "miracle."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 21:46:14 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Bull <bull@***********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)


>I *think* the "history" goes like this: When they first started doing
>"magic" classes at MIT, they called it MIT&M (M for Magic), but a few
years
>later changed it to MIT&T (T for Thaumaturgy) for some reason. Maybe
>because it sounded more dignified, maybe because it fit abbriviation
>better, or maybe because Thaumaturgy possibly covers more? (I'm not real
>sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in realtion to
>Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I messed that up
:))
>
>Bull-the-"I could be wrong though"-Ork-Decker
>
Thaumaturgy is the classy "this is serious" name for magic. I believe that
it literally translates into "The Crafting of Miracles", like Metalurgy. The
exact meaning is not important, the fact that it sounds a lot more dignified
than "Hocus Pocus", and more serious than "Magick". I don't think it
belongs
to any particular tradition, but it does put you in mind of hermetic book
learnin'

In Discworld, a Thaum is a basic unit of magic, like watts or volts or ohms
or whatever in electricity. One thaum is the magic required to produce one
small dove from a handkercheif or two medium sized billiard balls, from
memory. Not that anyone cares.
Message no. 5
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:17:52 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Bull <bull@***********.com>
> I *think* the "history" goes like this: When they first started doing
> "magic" classes at MIT, they called it MIT&M (M for Magic), but a few
years
> later changed it to MIT&T (T for Thaumaturgy) for some reason. Maybe
> because it sounded more dignified, maybe because it fit abbriviation
> better, or maybe because Thaumaturgy possibly covers more? (I'm not real
> sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in realtion to
> Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I messed that up
:))

I don't recall it ever being referred to as "MIT&M" -- I thought the
"M" was
added to a different school, Texas A&M.

This would give you Texas A&M&M (which really rolls off the tongue, don't
it?) and MIT&T (which also sounds cool).

Thaumaturgy *generally* refers to hermetic styles of magic, not any of the
other spiritual or esoteric styles. Although according to my dictionary,
thaumaturgy means "the performing of magic or miracles" which seems pretty
broad to me.

-- Josh
Message no. 6
From: GuayII@***.com GuayII@***.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 15:54:50 EDT
In a message dated 5/24/00 11:04:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
mataxes@****.net writes:

> I don't recall it ever being referred to as "MIT&M" -- I thought the
"M" was
> added to a different school, Texas A&M.
>
> This would give you Texas A&M&M (which really rolls off the tongue, don't
> it?)

Heh-heh...studying candy...
Cash
Message no. 7
From: Manolis Skoulikas great_worm@*****.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 01:07:05 +0300
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Bull, at 23:44 on 23 May 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > (I'm not real sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in
> > realtion to Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I
> > messed that up :))
>
> My (Dutch) dictionary defines "thaumaturg" as "someone who performs
> miracles" (my translation). Apparently, it's from the Greek "thauma"
> meaning "miracle."
>
And apart from the modern day meaning (miracle) the world "thauma in
ancient greek was the result of someone wondering over something.
"thaumazo" meant to wonder (either in question and bewilderment, or in
seeing something wondrous or wonderful).

"thaumatoyrgos" means the one who works either wonders or miracles (both
in modern and ancient greek).
The word of Thaumaturgy is used in modern english to signify both the
working of magic and the working of godgiven miracles, and in this way
is not deviating from the original greek word.
So my guess would be that MIT&T is more complete as it encompasses
religious beliefs on the workings of "magic"!

the wiz
Message no. 8
From: Bull bull@***********.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:33:21 -0400
At 12:17 PM 5/24/00 -0400, Josh Harrison wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bull <bull@***********.com>
>> I *think* the "history" goes like this: When they first started doing
>> "magic" classes at MIT, they called it MIT&M (M for Magic), but a
few
>years
>> later changed it to MIT&T (T for Thaumaturgy) for some reason. Maybe
>> because it sounded more dignified, maybe because it fit abbriviation
>> better, or maybe because Thaumaturgy possibly covers more? (I'm not real
>> sure on exactly WHAT the definition of Thaumaturgy is, in realtion to
>> Fantasy Magic, Wicca, or anything else, so.,.. Sue me if I messed that up
>:))
>
>I don't recall it ever being referred to as "MIT&M" -- I thought the
"M" was
>added to a different school, Texas A&M.
>
Could be (Though I don't recall hearing anything about A&M at all,
actually...)

But i believe MIT&M gets referred to either in a novel somewhere, or in one
of the older sourcebooks... I don;t really rememebr where I read the
reference stuff... And granted, I'd be willing to bet the original
refereance was a goof o the author's part :]

>This would give you Texas A&M&M (which really rolls off the tongue, don't
>it?) and MIT&T (which also sounds cool).
>
>Thaumaturgy *generally* refers to hermetic styles of magic, not any of the
>other spiritual or esoteric styles. Although according to my dictionary,
>thaumaturgy means "the performing of magic or miracles" which seems pretty
>broad to me.
>
Glad to know I didn;t frag it up too bad :]

Bull

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Message no. 9
From: Jill jmenning@***********.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:05:31 -0500
At 05:33 PM 5/24/00, Bull wrote:

>Could be (Though I don't recall hearing anything about A&M at all,
>actually...)
>
>But i believe MIT&M gets referred to either in a novel somewhere, or in one
>of the older sourcebooks... I don;t really rememebr where I read the
>reference stuff... And granted, I'd be willing to bet the original
>refereance was a goof o the author's part :]

Page 26 SR3 rulebook (In the "...And so it came to pass" section), in the
timeline labelled Magic on the Cutting Edge -

"2025: UCLA establishes the first undergraduate program in occult studies.
Within three years, similar programs are established at Texas A&M,
University of Chicago, MIT (renamed "MIT&M," for "and Magic")
Oxford,
Edinburgh University, and several universities in Germany."

Any help? :o)


> >This would give you Texas A&M&M (which really rolls off the tongue, don't
> >it?) and MIT&T (which also sounds cool).

Somehow I still can't picture magic-wielding Aggies... :o)

Jill
Message no. 10
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Names (was Re: Shadowrun movie)
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:06:55 -0500
On Wed, 24 May 2000 18:33:21 -0400 Bull <bull@***********.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Could be (Though I don't recall hearing anything about A&M at all,
> actually...)
<SNIP>

Texas A&M&M is mentioned in Grimoire 2nd Edition along with MIT&T

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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