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Message no. 1
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 02:26:57 +0000
Is this 2058 or today?

Foreword:
I am trying out some musings on how the nightmare corporations of
2050 can come about, in broad terms rather than the specifics of SR.
They are by no means unthinkable; we see signs of their rise all
around us. It is where we are headed, but, fortunately, not head on.
I want these statements to be challenged; I wish they can be declared
dead and void. But we shall see...

By the way, I wish to see a return of dystopian corporations as
the looming antagonists behind everything.. it's more cyberpunk than
IE's or insect spirits... and more realistic :)

Statement: Traditional powers are waning. (Military in particular).

Today, there is a slow but steady erosion of power from the nation
states. As military power becomes less important than economic and
relational power, the western governments has become hostage to the
whims of their populations, which again can be influenced by the
proper stick or carrot. In many cases it is the governments
themselves that do the influencing, but not always, or in some cases
even rarely. The Gulf War is a showcase of the failure of military
power in the face of economic and relational power.
(What? It was won by the coalition military, wasn't it? Think about
it like this.. who won? Iraq, the military power, or Kuwait, the
economic/relational power?).

Statement: Democracy requires capitalism. But capitalism does not
require democracy. (There is numerous examples of capitalism without
democracy, but none of democracy without capitalism.). Capitalism
without democracy becomes a tyranny of oppression.

Corporations, despite pleasant musings about 'public relations', are
fairly immune from the vagaries of the public once they become
settled. (Internatinal companies is the main force behind the current
fires in the pacific, yet I bet most here would be hard pressed even
to name them.). Corporations have been claimed to be the dictator's
best friend. Driven solely by short and medium term monetary gain
corporations are easily bribed by cheap labor and low taxes. Often,
they do the exploitation work of the dictators for them. The
consumers, while occassionally incensed by atrocities, child labor,
and stories of atrocious working conditions, will also almost always
buy the cheaper alternative. (Or, in the case of clever manipulation,
the more expensive alternative. Nike shoes, for example, is vastly
overpriced but sells like crazy. Manufactured in China for almost
nothing, they are among the most expensive shoes on the market.).
On the other hand, democracy is based on a number of freedoms,
among which is the freedom of personal ownership and freedom
of trade, which is more or less the sole requirement for capitalism.
If there is no capitalism, there can be no democracy.

Statement: Corporations are the Dictators' best friend.

The corporations gain by continued cheap labor; it is not in
their interest to see these countries becoming developed. The Arap
Moi's, the Deng Xiaoping, and Pinochet's of today has firm support in
corporations; in the mistaken belief that capitalism equals democracy
the corporations' activities are welcomed and endorsed by western
society.

(Did you know that today, in indonesia and the philipines,
mercenaries protect corporate interests from natives? With the
blessing of the government?)

Statement: There is an aristocracy of ownership.

Status is measured in wealth. If you are rich, you are
somebody. If you are poor, you are nobody. Happiness, a loving
spouse and good health is secondary. Wealth defines your station,
your status. Without status you will not be able to get a good job,
and thus you will remain of low status. If you have good status, you
are usually able to retain this. Advancing to the next higher 'class'
of status is hard, but not impossible; so is falling down. The drive
for status, the competition to be better than your neighbour, defines
today's society. As long as this is the sole measure of success, then
the environment, the homeless, the starving in africa, the thousands
of species made extinct each year, the rampaging diseases, all will
take second stage. (And a very, very low second stage.).

Statement: Corporations will grow larger at the expense of
governmental influence.

Today's best tool for gaining wealth is corporations, or any number
of other establishments connected to their existence. (Banking,
financial institutions, and, in some countries, dictators.). Their
continued existence is part of society, and their growth, given
today's social values, is inevitable. Since the 'validation' of
capitalism by the fall of communism, the process can only accelerate.
At the same time the democratic government depends on the success of
the nation's economy. This economy is clearly tied to the companies
in each nation. The government will have to make itself attractive to
corporations, through both laws, low taxation, and cheap and
easily exploitable labor or a highly educated workforce. (With a
resulting consumer market.). The international market is far more
fluid than ever before with the increased speed of information
exchange. The globalized market makes trade boycotts a loose -
loose proposition; a country imposing restirctions harms only itself,
making governmental interference highly detrimental for the nation,
and thus unlikely to happen. Thus corporations gain power, while
governments become less and less likely to interfere.

Statement: Capitalism unchecked by democracy leads to exploitation.

This is self evident. It is what is happening in most of the third
world today - western corporations exploit third world countries.
Also, instances of exploitation during the industrial revolution,
which is one of the showcase scenarios of capitalism unchecked, is in
every nation's past. This also led to the idea of Marxism and later
communism as a counter movement to unchecked capitalism.
It made the mistake of confusing unchecked capitalism with democratic
capitalism, but with the loss of power by governments and thus loss
of democratic checks on corporate power, we are moving towards
unchecked capitalism again.

Statement: Corporations grow larger.

This is in their nature. Corporations merging leads to lesser
internal expenses, while on the outside they only have to match the
price of their competitors. As long as they are larger than their
competitors, they thus get better profit margins, their shares thus
do better, and they then have more cashflow, so they can grow even
larger. It is a self - accelerating process, which is only halted
when checked by other megacorporations. (So the big 8 counterblance
each other from groving even larger, and at the same time gobbles up
anyone else trying to grow up into the big league. It is no
coincidence that the big 8 are somewhat specialized in separate
fields - these are the fields they have the biggest profit margins in
because they are the biggest in that field.).

Statement: Soical inequality leads to social unrest.

This statement should not be controversial. We see signs of this
everywhere. Chief examples of this is the french revolution, the
russian revolution, and WW2.


To sum up:
The world is moving towards a capitalist world order where nation
states are insignificant compared to the power of megacorporations.
Human rights, democracy, and other trappings of civilizations are
secondary to profit, leading to massive exploitation, which again
leads to huge social differences. This will lead to bloody uprising
by minority groups, often (rightly) labeled communists, which will be
struck down harshly by the government, or by the corporations
themselves.

To sum it up II:
Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
way around.




--
Fade

"Do you wish to dance with Lucretia, Mr. President?"
Message no. 2
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 23:19:33 -0500
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Fade wrote:

> By the way, I wish to see a return of dystopian corporations as
> the looming antagonists behind everything.. it's more cyberpunk than
> IE's or insect spirits... and more realistic :)

Well i dont have time to do the deep thought that is necisarry to
talk about the big subject you brought up(too much fun playing with R2.
riggers are my fav type of character:)) BUT i do know that you will get
your wish for next year. As Mike M. said at the Seminars at GenCon97 each
year Shadowrun has a theam. We have had the Year of Politics, the Year of
Crime, and next year will be the Year of the Corp! A new corp book, a
couple of adventures, a secret project or two, and hopefully SR2.5(well 3
but not the big jump 1 to 2 was.) So i hope you will enjoy it. Time to
brush up on your Ediquete Corp. skill:).

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 3
From: Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:31:29 +1000
[SNIP]
>(Did you know that today, in indonesia and the philipines,
>mercenaries protect corporate interests from natives? With the
>blessing of the government?)
[SNIP]
[SNIP]
>The world is moving towards a capitalist world order where nation
>states are insignificant compared to the power of megacorporations.
>Human rights, democracy, and other trappings of civilizations are
>secondary to profit, leading to massive exploitation, which again
>leads to huge social differences. This will lead to bloody uprising
>by minority groups, often (rightly) labeled communists, which will be
>struck down harshly by the government, or by the corporations
>themselves.
[SNIP]

Actually it's more of a way of life. The corporations work their way with
favors and freinds so they can ignore some of the issues raised by their
actions. The current fires in Indonesia are caused by logging firms who only
pay their people $15 to clear 12 hectares of land. Apathy is also a problem.
The people their are poor. Thanks to the low cost of living and the most
labor jobs come with housing and education. The companies have close ties
with the government. If they run out of money the ask the government for a
loan and they usually get one. A few hundred million to get them back on
their feet and nothing is done about it. As I said it's the way the run the
place.

Geoff

------------
'What happens if you're on a train traveling at the speed of light and you
run forward?'
geoffwa@***********.com.au
----------
Message no. 4
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 10:29:33 -0400
>To sum it up II:
>Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
>way around.

Interesting analysis. How is it affected, however, by a corporation whose
main product is egalitarian (but not necessarily democratic) government?
For example, a corporation like the Pueblo Corporate Council.

Wordman
Message no. 5
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:30:16 +0200
>>To sum it up II:
>>Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
>>way around.
>
>Interesting analysis. How is it affected, however, by a corporation whose
>main product is egalitarian (but not necessarily democratic) government?
>For example, a corporation like the Pueblo Corporate Council.
>
>Wordman

Nice thought... :)

Not sure just what the Pueblo Corporate Council is. If it is what it sounds
like - a government gone corporate (with stocks etc.) or a corporation
contracted to 'run the country'.. hm.

Let us say that Govcorp is contracted to take over all government functions
of The Country. (TC). As a corporation its main purpose is to make money for
its owners, while a government's priority is usually stability and safety for
its citizens and for trade. These interests are directly conflicting.
(Even though Govcorp would certainly try to provide a good product, it might
be a lot cheaper to provide the illusion of a good product.).
I would think twice before making a government corporate. Especially if this
was a total conversion. Most of the checks attached to a normal government
by diversification gone and at the same time at the hands of a ruling body with
a separate agenda? This place could become hell on earth. But it depends on
what checks there are on the corp. But it's SR, I'd say hell on earth.. .:)
Message no. 6
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:49:41 -0400
Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO> wrote:
> Wordman wrote:
>>Interesting analysis. How is it affected, however, by a corporation whose
>>main product is egalitarian (but not necessarily democratic) government?
>>For example, a corporation like the Pueblo Corporate Council.

>Not sure just what the Pueblo Corporate Council is.

>As a corporation its main purpose is to make money for
>its owners, while a government's priority is usually stability and safety for
>its citizens and for trade. These interests are directly conflicting.

The way the Pueblo Corporate Council works, each citizen owns at least one
share of PCC stock. You are allowed to own many more. For any given
political election, you are given a number of votes equal to the 10-based
logarithm of the number of shares you own, plus 1. So someone with 1 share
gets one vote. Someone with a million shares gets 7 votes.

In any case, the point is that the citizens _are_ the owners.

Wordman
Message no. 7
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:26:09 +0100
In article <199710201830.2336.baugi.ifi.uio.no@***.uio.no>, Rune
Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes
>Let us say that Govcorp is contracted to take over all government functions
>of The Country. (TC). As a corporation its main purpose is to make money for
>its owners, while a government's priority is usually stability and safety for
>its citizens and for trade. These interests are directly conflicting.
>(Even though Govcorp would certainly try to provide a good product, it might
>be a lot cheaper to provide the illusion of a good product.).

Let me give an example. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, where
all production is directed by GOSPLAN for the good of the people.

>I would think twice before making a government corporate. Especially if this
>was a total conversion. Most of the checks attached to a normal government
>by diversification gone and at the same time at the hands of a ruling body with
>a separate agenda? This place could become hell on earth. But it depends on
>what checks there are on the corp. But it's SR, I'd say hell on earth.. .:)

Problem is, the USSR never made a profit ;)


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:12:51 +0100
In article <199710200129.DAA18903@***.uio.no>, Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
writes
>Statement: Traditional powers are waning. (Military in particular).
>
>Today, there is a slow but steady erosion of power from the nation
>states. As military power becomes less important than economic and
>relational power, the western governments has become hostage to the
>whims of their populations, which again can be influenced by the
>proper stick or carrot. In many cases it is the governments
>themselves that do the influencing, but not always, or in some cases
>even rarely. The Gulf War is a showcase of the failure of military
>power in the face of economic and relational power.
>(What? It was won by the coalition military, wasn't it? Think about
>it like this.. who won? Iraq, the military power, or Kuwait, the
>economic/relational power?).

Kuwait was a passive and helpless agent in the conflict. The war was won
by Coalition (primarily US) military power. That Kuwait was of
sufficient economic importance to the US to merit such force is the
issue. Many other countries suffer invasion without United Nations
military coalitions banding together to liberate them (and their natural
resources).

Military power remains the last and irreplaceable resort of diplomacy.
Negotiation, economic sanctions, et al did not stop the fighting in the
Balkans: air attacks and troops on the ground did.

In fact, economic sanctions have proven to be of little real effect
against a foe determined to pursue a course of action, and in a few
cases (most notably Japan in 1941) have provoked a rival to move from
economic to military action. The US will no longer allow Japan to import
oil? Then Japan will seize the Dutch East Indies and _take_ the oil by
force.

>Statement: Corporations are the Dictators' best friend.
>
>The corporations gain by continued cheap labor; it is not in
>their interest to see these countries becoming developed.

False, to a point. The corporations require two things: a sink of labour
with the minimum necessary education, no freedoms and low living
standards to produce goods: and an affluent population with the
disposable income to purchase those goods.

Without markets, the corporations have no sales: without sales there is
no revenue: without revenue there is no corporation.


>To sum up:
>The world is moving towards a capitalist world order where nation
>states are insignificant compared to the power of megacorporations.

Debatable. See my previous posts on corporation versus nation. The
nation-state retains certain roles (such as maintaining a military force
for its own protection, and coincidentally protecting the corporate
enclaves within its borders; guarding the sea lanes by which the goods
the nation needs and desires are imported, and coincidentally protecting
the corporation's cargoes) which generate no revenue, yet are profitable
to supply the equipment for.

The nation is weak compared to the corporation, but those of a certain
size (the UCAS, Japan, Britain, CAS, some of the larger NAN states, are
examples) are able to use their military power as counterweight to the
economic might of a corporation during a dispute.

Note the key point - _a_ corporation. A corporation acting on an
opportunistic basis, attempting to coerce the UCAS government, is
vulnerable to pressure: provided that its competitors consider there to
be more benefit in exploiting the situation (a rival distracted and
weakened, its UCAS market share to be seized) than there is threat from
the UCAS successfully facing down a corporation.

The problem, of course, is that if the Big Eight trample a nation too
hard, they cause for themselves the situation that the United States did
in 1941: faced with economic ruin, Japan chose the military option as a
last hope of continuing the leadership's rule.


>Human rights, democracy, and other trappings of civilizations are
>secondary to profit, leading to massive exploitation, which again
>leads to huge social differences. This will lead to bloody uprising
>by minority groups, often (rightly) labeled communists, which will be
>struck down harshly by the government, or by the corporations
>themselves.

Actually, corporations make very useful scapegoats for weak governments.
"It's not our fault! If those corporations would only pay their fair
share of taxes, there'd be welfare and health care for everyone! But the
greedy corps take and take and give us nothing back! Vote for me and
we'll force them to return some of what they've stolen from us!"

Old line, new twist. Germany in the early 1920s springs to mind.

>To sum it up II:
>Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
>way around.

Depends where, I think.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Josh Higham <jhigham@******.STUDENT.CWRU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:03:09 -0400
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Fade wrote:

> Statement: Democracy requires capitalism. But capitalism does not
> require democracy. (There is numerous examples of capitalism without
> democracy, but none of democracy without capitalism.). Capitalism
> without democracy becomes a tyranny of oppression.

I pretty much agree with your point of view (although whether I really
think it will happen, and how things will fall out may vary), but I do
have to say this; Capitalism does not require democracy.

Democracy is the concept of one person, one vote. Everything else (the
personal freedoms, bill of rights, etc) is not "a democracy." A
dictatorship could have those same rules, and that wouldn't change the
fact that it is a democracy. Now, it seems likely that a democracy will
tend to that sort of alignment, since the people do the voting, and they
like some securities, but they are not necessarily linked together.

In fact, democracy would work fine with a socialist system as well;
Everybody votes for the person who does the best job of managing output,
and everyone has an assigned job. The only reason that you haven't seen
other forms of economics mixed with Democracy is because Democracy has
only been practiced for a short time.

This does tend to be a point of confusion; many people confuse socialism
with communism - I still can't completely tell the difference, and the
terms carry a lot of baggage that makes it difficult to tell the
difference, but they refer to seperate issues.

Now, having said that, I am not an economist, I tend to be long winded,
and you can take what I say with a grain of salt.

*-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-*
Josh Higham jxh25@**.cwru.edu 11904 Carlton Rd. 410A
http://129.22.241.146/~jhigham/ Cleveland OH 44106 Anon ftp available at
the same site
Message no. 10
From: Josh Higham <jhigham@******.STUDENT.CWRU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:08:50 -0400
On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Les Ward wrote:

> Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO> wrote:
> > Wordman wrote:
> >>Interesting analysis. How is it affected, however, by a corporation whose
> >>main product is egalitarian (but not necessarily democratic) government?
> >>For example, a corporation like the Pueblo Corporate Council.
>
> >Not sure just what the Pueblo Corporate Council is.
>
> >As a corporation its main purpose is to make money for
> >its owners, while a government's priority is usually stability and safety for
> >its citizens and for trade. These interests are directly conflicting.
>
> The way the Pueblo Corporate Council works, each citizen owns at least one
> share of PCC stock. You are allowed to own many more. For any given
> political election, you are given a number of votes equal to the 10-based
> logarithm of the number of shares you own, plus 1. So someone with 1 share
> gets one vote. Someone with a million shares gets 7 votes.
>
> In any case, the point is that the citizens _are_ the owners.

How do citizens get more votes? This sounds like a "buy a vote" scheme,
which personally scares me to death (or maybe not; at least in this case
it is out in the open, whereas in the US politicians try to pretend it
doesn't happen).

In general, any variable power system is weak, because it creates
incentive for people to conspire to consolidate power, and gives them an
easy means to do so. Or so I believe.

*-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-**-*
Josh Higham jxh25@**.cwru.edu
11904 Carlton Rd. 410A http://129.22.241.146/~jhigham/
Cleveland OH 44106 Anon ftp available at the same site
Message no. 11
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:04:52 +0200
(Keep in mind what I said first off... it's an attempt at rationalizing how
corporations can come about. In this rationalization I of course point out
how this can come about, and what traits of current society can lead to
this. It is not the only forces, but it is *not* all that unlikely.)


Paul J. Adams wrote:
>>(What? It was won by the coalition military, wasn't it? Think about
>>it like this.. who won? Iraq, the military power, or Kuwait, the
>>economic/relational power?).
>
>Kuwait was a passive and helpless agent in the conflict. The war was won
>by Coalition (primarily US) military power. That Kuwait was of
>sufficient economic importance to the US to merit such force is the
>issue. Many other countries suffer invasion without United Nations
>military coalitions banding together to liberate them (and their natural
>resources).

That is the point exactly. Kuwait is a country with good enough relations and
importance that the military coalition would liberate it. They did not need a
military of their own. They were not that passive; they started a fairly mayor
PR campaign against Iraq, without wich the coalition might not have acted as
decisively. The other countries in question has not made itself indispensable
to others, or otherwise doesn't have the political clout to get someone to
dig them out of their problems.

>Military power remains the last and irreplaceable resort of diplomacy.
>Negotiation, economic sanctions, et al did not stop the fighting in the
>Balkans: air attacks and troops on the ground did.

I am not saying military and governments will disappear. But I *am* saying that
the world is moving towards a state where having a strong capitalist presence
makes the country safer from military attack, because it is then a trade
partner with other countries, and thus in other countries' interest to keep
safe. Thus, if you manage to make yourself economically important enough and
politically popular enough you need not worry about military, since if you
are attacked you will get assistance. Also, attacking a country with which
you have valuable trade soon becomes a loose-loose proposition.
It's the globalization of the markets. What you will more and more of is not
international war, as much as rebellion, ethnic cleansing, and similar.

A military is still required; it's a vital deterrent from attack. But no
matter how huge your army is (iraq) if the opponent (kuwait) can muster allies
enough (the coalition) you loose. Kuwait won by being able to muster these
allies, not by direct military power.


As for 'stopping the fighting', most observers are in agreement that the
second NATO troops pull out of Bosnia, they will start fighting again. The
problem isn't solved, only delayed. They pull out in a few months. We'll
see then, won't we?

>>Statement: Corporations are the Dictators' best friend.
>>
>>The corporations gain by continued cheap labor; it is not in
>>their interest to see these countries becoming developed.
>
>False, to a point. The corporations require two things: a sink of labour
>with the minimum necessary education, no freedoms and low living
>standards to produce goods: and an affluent population with the
>disposable income to purchase those goods.

Read between the lines: THESE countries. I mean currently undeveloped
countries. They are unable and unwilling to make western world countries
into totalitarian low - cost countries. They need two standards: Highly
developed countries with high prices, and underdeveloped countries with
low prices. While this difference exists they can reap the profit of trading
between the two. It is not a conscious plan, and many corps try to keep
a moral line in their actions, but it is the darker side of this I'm looking
at.

>The nation is weak compared to the corporation, but those of a certain
>size (the UCAS, Japan, Britain, CAS, some of the larger NAN states, are
>examples) are able to use their military power as counterweight to the
>economic might of a corporation during a dispute.

What dispute? The corporations are not interested in the slightest in fighting
the governments. Who is *in* the corporate buildings? The government's own
population! Any idea what would happen if a government bombed its own people?
It would not remain popular, that's for sure! The only disputes between the
government and corporations will be in courtrooms, and there, money and
influence do tell.

>Actually, corporations make very useful scapegoats for weak governments.
>"It's not our fault! If those corporations would only pay their fair
>share of taxes, there'd be welfare and health care for everyone! But the
>greedy corps take and take and give us nothing back! Vote for me and
>we'll force them to return some of what they've stolen from us!"

True. You would hear it too, I bet. But it would not be actually *done* in
most cases. Too many conservatists would say that taxing the corporations
would make them leave. (See the bit about governments having to make
themselves attractive to corporations.).

>>To sum it up II:
>>Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
>>way around.
>
>Depends where, I think.

Um, could you elaborate? Before you do, let me elaborate on what I mean.
Democracy and capitalism works somewhat against each other. Capitalism
wants to make money heedless of consequences. Trusts, syndicates, monopolies,
bribery, influencing, raiding, market manipulation is all parts of the
methods used.A democratic government exists to insure security and monetary
safety for its population. This it does by keeping capitalist interests
ordered, and fairly overboard, by having trade laws and regulations, by having
a military, police, and so on. If democracy remains in control, or 'top dog',
trade will remain balanced, prices will remain at normal levels, the economy
will remain stable. If capitalism was 'top dog' the result would be artificial
constructs to bloat corporate earnings without concern for the population.

How can which of these is better depend on anything?

And if so, what?

I wish to make sure you understand I see the advantages of capitalism. It's
great. It's just that it must not work unchecked by human concerns. So far
governments are the 'arbiters' of the corporate trade wars (boxing matches?).
They can occassionally be bribed and so on, but they usually leave the fight
clean.
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 01:00:25 +0100
In article <199710202304.9227.baugi.ifi.uio.no@***.uio.no>, Rune
Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>Kuwait was a passive and helpless agent in the conflict. The war was
won
>>by Coalition (primarily US) military power. That Kuwait was of
>>sufficient economic importance to the US to merit such force is the
>>issue. Many other countries suffer invasion without United Nations
>>military coalitions banding together to liberate them (and their
natural
>>resources).
>
>That is the point exactly. Kuwait is a country with good enough relations and
>importance that the military coalition would liberate it. They did not need a
>military of their own. They were not that passive; they started a fairly mayor
>PR campaign against Iraq, without wich the coalition might not have acted as
>decisively.

"Kuwait" did not. The government-in-exile did. Big difference. If the
al-Sabah's aircraft had fallen foul of an Iraqi combat air patrol as
they fled their country, then there goes the PR campaign.

>>Military power remains the last and irreplaceable resort of diplomacy.
>>Negotiation, economic sanctions, et al did not stop the fighting in the
>>Balkans: air attacks and troops on the ground did.
>
>I am not saying military and governments will disappear. But I *am* saying that
>the world is moving towards a state where having a strong capitalist presence
>makes the country safer from military attack, because it is then a trade
>partner with other countries, and thus in other countries' interest to keep
>safe. Thus, if you manage to make yourself economically important enough and
>politically popular enough you need not worry about military, since if you
>are attacked you will get assistance.

Though how do you defend the nations whose trade you depend upon? Again,
military force will not disappear: though it will reduce in sheer size
and change in emphasis considerably.

>A military is still required; it's a vital deterrent from attack. But no
>matter how huge your army is (iraq) if the opponent (kuwait) can muster allies
>enough (the coalition) you loose. Kuwait won by being able to muster these
>allies, not by direct military power.

Kuwait didn't win. The Coalition did. It was merely more convenient to
restore the al-Sabahs to rule Kuwait than it was to - for instance -
install a democratic regime, or a US puppet, or make the state a UN
protectorate. Kuwait had no real say in its future, either while
occupied by Iraq or while being liberated by the Coalition.

Most of the world's interest ended with "Kuwait liberated". How it was
governed after liberation concerned only statesmen, and their interest
was primarily "how do we guarantee the flow of oil and keep the region
stable"? Kuwait was left to accept whatever fate best fitted that goal.

>As for 'stopping the fighting', most observers are in agreement that the
>second NATO troops pull out of Bosnia, they will start fighting again. The
>problem isn't solved, only delayed. They pull out in a few months. We'll
>see then, won't we?

My guess? The Serbs will resume their attempts to create Greater Serbia.

The Croats and Muslims will try to retake the lands they lost to the
Serbs and to each other.

We'll be exactly back to where we were a few years ago, except instead
of being tired and cold and hungry all the soldiers have had time to
rest and eat.

>>False, to a point. The corporations require two things: a sink of labour
>>with the minimum necessary education, no freedoms and low living
>>standards to produce goods: and an affluent population with the
>>disposable income to purchase those goods.
>
>Read between the lines: THESE countries. I mean currently undeveloped
>countries.

Missed that. In which case, no argument.

>>The nation is weak compared to the corporation, but those of a certain
>>size (the UCAS, Japan, Britain, CAS, some of the larger NAN states, are
>>examples) are able to use their military power as counterweight to the
>>economic might of a corporation during a dispute.
>
>What dispute? The corporations are not interested in the slightest in fighting
>the governments.

What taxes do the corporations pay? What happens if they decide not to
pay? Shadowrun material (Corporate Shadowfiles) cites examples of armed
force being used in nation-corporation disputes, primarily financial
ones.

>Who is *in* the corporate buildings? The government's own
>population!

Nope. Corporate citizens of a foreign sovereign nation. Corporations are
extraterritorial in Shadowrun, remember. (If you're confining yourself
to real life then this of course doesn't apply).

>It would not remain popular, that's for sure! The only disputes between the
>government and corporations will be in courtrooms, and there, money and
>influence do tell.

And then it escalates to seizure of corporate assets (goods in transit
are the easiest ones) in lieu of unpaid taxes...

>>Actually, corporations make very useful scapegoats for weak governments.
>>"It's not our fault! If those corporations would only pay their fair
>>share of taxes, there'd be welfare and health care for everyone! But the
>>greedy corps take and take and give us nothing back! Vote for me and
>>we'll force them to return some of what they've stolen from us!"
>
>True. You would hear it too, I bet. But it would not be actually *done* in
>most cases. Too many conservatists would say that taxing the corporations
>would make them leave. (See the bit about governments having to make
>themselves attractive to corporations.).

Yep. But, again, if a corporation demands too much then it will be told
to move on: there has to be a benefit to the corporation establishing a
site for this to be attractive and gain concessions.

If a corporate site leaks toxins into the local groundwater, emits
choking fumes into the air, and its employees all live on-site and buy
in the company store (no benefit to local retailers) and are
extraterritorial (so no tax revenue) where's the advantage in having it
in your county? In fact, you'd want it as far from you as possible. Both
sides have to bring something to the table here, a fact often
overlooked.

>>Depends where, I think.
>
>Um, could you elaborate?

It depends how deeply the habit of democracy, of protest, and the belief
in ethics and the power of the individual is rooted, in the area in
question. It also depends on a reasonably free press ('free' at least as
in 'multiple ownership').

Example: Brent Spar. British Petroleum reversed its position and has
spent tens of millions of pounds, because of a skilful advertising
campaign (based on incorrect data, a colleague was part of the survey
team that checked Brent Spar's tanks) by Greenpeace that sparked a
boycott of BP products.

If an oil company intended to dump an obsolete and outdated storage
platform in the South China Sea, would there be such an outcry or
protest? Would most citizens of, say, Myanmar even know, let alone care,
what was happening?

That's what I mean by "depends where".

>How can which of these is better depend on anything?

Not "which is better", just "which is more likely to dominate".


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:43:29 +0100
Rune Fostervoll said on 1:04/21 Oct 97...

> As for 'stopping the fighting', most observers are in agreement that the
> second NATO troops pull out of Bosnia, they will start fighting again. The
> problem isn't solved, only delayed. They pull out in a few months. We'll
> see then, won't we?

The Americans will pull out in a few months, if the rest of NATO lets
them. I think it has to do with the Vietnam/Somalia syndrome where the US
is afraid to go in because they may get involved in a drawn-out war (which
is often their own fault in the first place, IMnsHO). At the same time,
much of the rest of NATO for some reason thinks they won't be able to
handle peacekeeping in Bosnia without the Americans there as well. In that
light, I'd say that if the US pulls out then the rest of SFOR will do so
as well, and it's back to war again.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The truth may be out there, but lies are inside you head.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: David Mezerette <mezeretted@*****.U-NANCY.FR>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:43:59 +0100
At 21:12 20/10/97 +0100, you wrote:

>The nation is weak compared to the corporation, but those of a certain
>size (the UCAS, Japan, Britain, CAS, some of the larger NAN states, are
>examples) are able to use their military power as counterweight to the
>economic might of a corporation during a dispute.
>
>Note the key point - _a_ corporation. A corporation acting on an
>opportunistic basis, attempting to coerce the UCAS government, is
>vulnerable to pressure: provided that its competitors consider there to
>be more benefit in exploiting the situation (a rival distracted and
>weakened, its UCAS market share to be seized) than there is threat from
>the UCAS successfully facing down a corporation.
>
>The problem, of course, is that if the Big Eight trample a nation too
>hard, they cause for themselves the situation that the United States did
>in 1941: faced with economic ruin, Japan chose the military option as a
>last hope of continuing the leadership's rule.
>
an interesting case in shadowrun's world is , in my opinion, france: (t)here
work the corporations hand in hand w/ the government: they have to respect
rules, extraterritoriality doesn't extend to air and earth (they own the
ground, but not what's below and above), and state-owned firms and research
centers often work w/ corporations. Most of them don't have the right to
have their own security force,or the police has priority over them; workers
are subject to french laws, not corplaws, etc..
anyway there ain't many of the big 8 in france: fuchi (thx de Villiers),
renraku (w/ a mini-seattle-like-arcology in paris), yamatetsu, and i've
heard of aztechnology as well. To have assets in france, corporations have
to sign a kinda contract w/ the governnment. The point of corporations in
cooperating w/ the government is that their product ain't as much taxed

i don't exactly remember/know how the french governmentr managed doing that,
but well, that's the official (Descartes under Fasa's licence) version anyway...

ChYlD
mezeretted@*****.u-nancy.fr
Message no. 15
From: Les Ward <lward@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:26:37 -0400
Josh Higham
> Wordman wrote:
>> The way the Pueblo Corporate Council works, each citizen owns at least one
>> share of PCC stock. You are allowed to own many more. For any given
>> political election, you are given a number of votes equal to the 10-based
>> logarithm of the number of shares you own, plus 1. So someone with 1 share
>> gets one vote. Someone with a million shares gets 7 votes.
>>
>> In any case, the point is that the citizens _are_ the owners.

>How do citizens get more votes?

They buy more stock in the corporation.

>In general, any variable power system is weak, because it creates
>incentive for people to conspire to consolidate power, and gives them an
>easy means to do so. Or so I believe.

I believe that _every_ voting system creates "creates incentive for people
to conspire to consolidate power". One-man-one-vote in the States still
breeds political parties, unions, etc.

The original poster presented an analysis which partly said that
governments will be increasingly supplanted by corporations in most of the
ways that matter. I might have read this into it, but he also seemed to say
that a result of this would be that average citizens would have much less
input into the way things were run. The Pueblo Corporate Council seems to
be an interesting attempt to solve this problem.

Wordman
Message no. 16
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:46:35 +0000
Wordman wrote:
> I believe that _every_ voting system creates "creates incentive for people
> to conspire to consolidate power". One-man-one-vote in the States still
> breeds political parties, unions, etc.
Demagogues are a perfect example of the worst kind.

> The original poster presented an analysis which partly said that
> governments will be increasingly supplanted by corporations in most of the
> ways that matter. I might have read this into it, but he also seemed to say
> that a result of this would be that average citizens would have much less
> input into the way things were run.
Certainly. (More on this a bit later.).

> The Pueblo Corporate Council seems to
> be an interesting attempt to solve this problem.

Yes. It is interesting, and not the worst system, certainly. But it
is a flawed system. There is only *one* stock to buy, there is no
choice. It is a one - party system, even though you can affect it,
your clout is immaterial. Also, assume that if you have just one
vote, you won't bother to show up on the board meetings. (Say, it
costs a lot to get there, and limited space). So mostly those with
lots of shares (and thus more votes) show up. And their interests
will often be quite different from those of 'regular' people. And as
ordinary man's influence is low, it grows less as the point of going
there is less. And what if other corporations buy stock?

Another interesting option, but ultimately disastrous, is using the
internet to create a direct democracy rather than a representative
one.

About corporations taking over government functions: That's not quite
what i meant. I meant the globalization of the world trade makes the
government's ability to affect the markets less. The options they can
realistically use are shrinking as further globalization makes the
markets impervious to changes imposed by governments.
Western governments are becoming less and less able, and willing, to
take major actions like trade wars, sanctions, hot wars and so on.
A war of conquest today for western countries is close to pointless.
None of the greater western countries has engaged in this sort of
adventure in normal circumstances since the end of WWII.
The most notable adventurer is Britain, which has launched many small
campaigns, but almost exclusively in support of commonwealth allies.

(You, Paul know more than I about this. Has Britain launched *any*
wars of traditional conquest since the end of WWII? (Which wasn't a
war of conquest either, btw).). I think not, but I'm not sure.

Paul wrote, that which of capitalism and democracy that would 'win'
depends on where in the world you are. This is perfectly true.
Some places capitalism has won allready. But the balance of power
will very probably move towards corporations here, too. And how far
can it shift in 60 years? Very, very far. How much has happened the
last 50 years? The 50 years before that? And things are happening
faster and faster now. Do not take for granted that you will grow old
in the world you were born in.

BTW, sources:
Lectures by H.Hummel, Nato summit Rome
(governments will have to make themselves attractive for
corporations to remain competitive).

Article, by Arthur Schlesinger Jr, "Has Democracy a Future?"
(Democract Vs. Capitalism)

Article, by Josef Joffe, "How America Does It"
(Trade and relations more important than military power)

Arthur Schlesinger Jr, is a writer, historian and former Special
Assistant to President Kennedy. That article was the main incentive
for writing what I did. It can be found in Foreign Affairs,
sep/oct-97. It's suggested reading. His view is slightly more
optimistic than what I painted, but then, I was trying to make a
worst case scenario. :)
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 17
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:58:13 +0200
Warning: Another long winded post coming up! It says nothing important,
so go ahead and skip it. :)

Josh Higham wrote:
>I pretty much agree with your point of view (although whether I really
>think it will happen, and how things will fall out may vary),

:) Thanks. I also hope the future will be a better place. But I doubt
it will become so without some work on our part. There is challenges
ahead that has to be met. This is one of them. SR is a world where
the challenges weren't met, or made too hard by the advent of the awakening.

>but I do have to say this; Capitalism does not require democracy.

From what you write later I think that came out the wrong way, I think
you meant to say, democracy does not require capitalism.
(You state that democracy hasn't been tried with other economic systems but
could work).

>Democracy is the concept of one person, one vote. Everything else (the
>personal freedoms, bill of rights, etc) is not "a democracy." A
>dictatorship could have those same rules, and that wouldn't change the
>fact that it is a democracy. Now, it seems likely that a democracy will
>tend to that sort of alignment, since the people do the voting, and they
>like some securities, but they are not necessarily linked together.

What do you need for democracy?

You need free speech. If not, how can you state what to vote on?
You need the right to gather in groups freely. If not, how can you form
a political opinion?
You need freedom of printing. That is, anyone can make public any view or
opinion.
This cannot be state owned, if it is, how can you be sure it is not censored?
And so you need to have private property. And if you have private property,
it can also change hands, so you need the right to buy and sell things. And
then you have the funding stones of capitalism.

Now a future system might exist that could have democracy without capitalism.
But today, no. And a dictatorship, absolutely not.

>In fact, democracy would work fine with a socialist system as well;
>Everybody votes for the person who does the best job of managing output,
>and everyone has an assigned job. The only reason that you haven't seen
>other forms of economics mixed with Democracy is because Democracy has
>only been practiced for a short time.
>
>This does tend to be a point of confusion; many people confuse socialism
>with communism - I still can't completely tell the difference, and the
>terms carry a lot of baggage that makes it difficult to tell the
>difference, but they refer to seperate issues.
(Your example is pure communism. In addition, in 'true' communism the guys you
vote for make no more money, and has no more privileges than you do. What
they need to make it work is some sort of incentive to make people work
instead of letting the others do your work for you.(With the logical result
noone works more than they absolutely have to do to still call it work.
But that incentive cannot be money if it is to be communism.).

Socialism, Social Democracy, Democracies are all sides of the same coin.
Communism, as was practiced in the Soviet Union, was totalitarian socialism.
In my view, social democracy and capitalist democracy is just nuances of the
same thing. In a social democracy the state has more responsibility for its
people's welfare - providing unemplyment pay for those unable to work, health
care, road maintenance, and so on. In a capitalist democracy the state does
not do this, but relies on insurance and so on to provide the same. In both,
the people can buy, sell, own and so on as they wish, and make money. In a
social democracy, taxes are higher, and usually so that those who are rich pay
proportionally more than those who are not so rich. In a capitalist democracy,
taxes are often less, since the state has fewer responsibilities. Most nations
today are far from either/or.
USA, which AFAIK considers itself a capitalist nation, still has state owned
hospitals, provides road maintenance, and so on. Norway, which considers
itself a social democracy, is more or less the same. Hospitals are not
completely free, it depends on how necessary the health care is. Plastic
surgery, for instance, is not supported by government hospitals except in
restructuring jobs, for instance, and medication for a common cold is paid
almost in full by the patient. But lumonia, fractures and so on is treated
virtually for free; so is transplants and so on. There's also some private
clinics. (For plastic surgery, dental and optical maintenance mainly.).

For my part I have some experience with the health care system of Norway and
USA in regard to Haemophilia. Haemophilia is a disease which absolutely
requires fairly expensive, but simple, treatment, so as not to lead to
eventual crippling of the patient. Two cases: A friend of mine, born and
a citizen of USA, was insured through his father's job. He gets all the
medication he requires. Another friend of mine, born and a citizen of Norway,
gets all the medication he requires. Qualitatively, AFAIK, almost no
difference.

The friend in USA's insurance company has so far gone to six lawsuits to be
released from the contract. If they succeeded, the option would be to pay
approximately 20000+$ for an insurance a year. There is another option; if he
managed to get ten blood donors he could get one free dose of medicine.
My friend in Norway pays approximately 150$ a year. Also, quality control and
information in Norway appears better; 'only' 20% of the haemophiliacs was
infected with HIV, compared to about 70-80% in USA. (The insurance companies
and insurees are unwilling to pay for 'unnecessary precautions', it seems.).

But on the other hand, you have house insurance and so on normally in Norway.
The idea is that no matter how bad off you are, you have a right to health,
basic education, and a certain minimum of living. Everything else is out of
your own pocket. Tax varies between about 25% and 50%. There's a state owned
TV company and some private ones. The state company usually sends stuff
which is hard to fund commercially. Nature programs, ethnic stuff,
documentaries, opera and so on with fairly high quality, while the other
channels send typical hollywood stuff (Infotainment, soaps, etc).. still, the
difference isn't that large. For middle class people, it is, I think,
barely noticeable in lifestyle.
Message no. 18
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:26:32 -0400
In a message dated 97-10-19 21:30:21 EDT, runefo@***.UIO.NO writes:

>
> To sum it up II:
> Let's hope democracy can control capitalism, rather than the other
> way around.
>
>
After reading your entire post, and snipping it for my own reasons, I have
only this to add Fade.

Your statements are correct overall. But remember, though the big picture is
often the end goal of a given force/entity, it is reachable by means other
than those you have mentioned.

-K
Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Nation states and Corporations
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:28:26 +0100
In article <199710211448.QAA09834@***.uio.no>, Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
writes
>The most notable adventurer is Britain, which has launched many small
>campaigns, but almost exclusively in support of commonwealth allies.
>
>(You, Paul know more than I about this. Has Britain launched *any*
>wars of traditional conquest since the end of WWII? (Which wasn't a
>war of conquest either, btw).). I think not, but I'm not sure.

Basically, no.

We've been _busy_ - 1964 is the only year since 1945 when at least one
British serviceman has not been killed on active duty overseas - but the
conflicts have mostly been counterinsurgency campaigns, supporting
allies (Oman, Brunei) or assisting colonies to reach independence
without interference from terrorists or insurgents (Malaya, Sarawak,
Nigeria, et al). Or else there's the simple "defence of British
territory" conflict, most notably the Falklands. And finally, UN
operations: ranging from Cyprus, to Bosnia, to the Gulf and Korea.

The nearest to a "war of conquest" we've fought in this half of the
decade was Suez, when Nasser nationalised a strategically vital and
commercially Anglo-French asset (the Suez Canal) and a British, French
and Israeli coalition seized it back. Then the US protested and
postured, and Nasser got to keep the canal.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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