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Message no. 1
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:45:15 -0600
Ok...just curious as to what types of Native Americans are in the year 2057+

If there is a book on this which one? I might have it but dont remember it
being in there. A player wants to be a Native American (Amerindian I
guess) and he wants one of his languages to be something like Sioux or
whatever the equivalent is now.

Ed


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Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 2
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:19:09 -0700
At 18:45 11/13/98 -0600, Ed wrote:
>Ok...just curious as to what types of Native Americans are in the year 2057+
>
>If there is a book on this which one? I might have it but dont remember it
>being in there. A player wants to be a Native American (Amerindian I
>guess) and he wants one of his languages to be something like Sioux or
>whatever the equivalent is now.

Err... maybe I didn't read this right, but wouldn't Native American Nations
1 and Native American Nations 2 be a good start?

(IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had alot
of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)

-Adam
--
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Message no. 3
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 19:30:45 -0600
At 06:19 PM 11/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Err... maybe I didn't read this right, but wouldn't Native American Nations
>1 and Native American Nations 2 be a good start?
>(IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had alot
>of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)

Those sound familiar. I bet they are out of print. I have not seen any in
a long time. In fact now that I think about it I do remember those books
and did not get them thinking I would never have a use for them. (kicking
self in ass)

Ed

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Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 4
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:02:56 -0600
OK I misunderstood my player.

He wants to know what languages there are for the Native Americans. Like
Sioux has well I guess it is Sioux language. Would the Utes have the Ute
language or do they have different names? Not much of a Native American buff.

Ed
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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 5
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:15:29 -0600
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:02:56 -0600 Ed <equine@***********.COM> writes:
>OK I misunderstood my player.
>
>He wants to know what languages there are for the Native Americans.
Like
>Sioux has well I guess it is Sioux language. Would the Utes have the
Ute
>language or do they have different names? Not much of a Native
>American buff.

You're gonna hate this but ... find a copy of SR2. It has a great list
of languages including dozens of Native American languages all grouped
into "language families"

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 6
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:36:37 -0600
At 10:15 PM 11/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>You're gonna hate this but ... find a copy of SR2. It has a great list
>of languages including dozens of Native American languages all grouped
>into "language families"

Really? Well if I can find all the pages of my SR2 book I will have to
look. :) Thanks!

Ed
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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 7
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:22:08 -0500
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:19:09 -0700 Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
writes:

>(IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had
alot
>of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)

I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that could
show the state of the NAN in 2060, and unfortunately since people didn't
like the first books... won't be any new ones anytime soon.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Not to say I don't have one or two out-of-print books... well, okay. I
have two."

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Message no. 8
From: Ed <equine@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:46:33 -0600
At 12:22 AM 11/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that could

I just found Vol 1 tonight at Half Price. I love that place! Now if I can
only get my hands on Vol 2!

Ed
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Ed Mayhall "ZERO is my HERO!"
Dallas, Tx
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Message no. 9
From: Josh Munn <barnack@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 02:59:53 EST
>At 12:22 AM 11/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
>>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that
could
>
>I just found Vol 1 tonight at Half Price. I love that place! Now if I
can
>only get my hands on Vol 2!
>
Been looking for that one for at least a year and a half now. good
luck.

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 10
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:43:03 +1000
>>(IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had
>alot
>>of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)
>
>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that could
>show the state of the NAN in 2060, and unfortunately since people didn't
>like the first books... won't be any new ones anytime soon.

It's not just that - FASA's planned release schedule till the end of 99 is
basically chock-full. And they're unlikely to start planning any new books
for a while, given that. Don't forget there's a bunch of old-book-updates
(Man and Machine, Cannon Companion, MitS, Seattle 2 etc) as well as a bunch
of new material. That doesn't leave them much room for rehashing old,
non-essential books.

Lady Jestyr

- The Australian dream: Football, meat pies and Holden cars. -
- Holdens are American, meat pies are British, and football is stupid. -
- jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr -
Message no. 11
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:19:00 -0600
Josh Munn wrote:
>
> >At 12:22 AM 11/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
> >>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that
> could
> >
> >I just found Vol 1 tonight at Half Price. I love that place! Now if I
> can
> >only get my hands on Vol 2!
> >
> Been looking for that one for at least a year and a half now. good
> luck.

Try http://www.crazyegors.com. They will try to get you the books and
will send them to you once they get them if you still want them.

http://www.titan-games.com is another online store with such games.

http://amazon.com has the books listed as out of print, but they may be
able to get their hands on them as well.

--David
Message no. 12
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 03:29:15 -0600
Adam J wrote:
>
> At 18:45 11/13/98 -0600, Ed wrote:
> >Ok...just curious as to what types of Native Americans are in the year 2057+
> >
> >If there is a book on this which one? I might have it but dont remember it
> >being in there. A player wants to be a Native American (Amerindian I
> >guess) and he wants one of his languages to be something like Sioux or
> >whatever the equivalent is now.
>
> Err... maybe I didn't read this right, but wouldn't Native American Nations
> 1 and Native American Nations 2 be a good start?
>
> (IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had alot
> of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)
>

Well, I will give you my basic reason for not liking them.

They are inaccurate.

Now, how can one say this, when it is a fantasy/scifi game set in the
future? Things like missing the third largest Siouxian tribe in
existance, putting the Pawnee in the Ute nation when their original
lands are directly in the Sioux Nation, getting the creator of the
original Ghost Dance's tribe wrong, etc. bothers me a lot.

For those people who do not see such things in the book (I'm taking a
Native American studies class currently in college, which skews my views
on things), many do not like the fact the adventures in the books took
up 2/3rds of the beginning of the books, with only 1/3 left over for
describing the nations.

People, I think, wanted something more like how the CFS Sourcebook
turned out - more detail, with short adventures, not a long adventure
with scant details. Las Vegas, the second largest city in the Ute Nation
(assuming it is behind Salt Lake City, which it is currently not), has 3
pages devoted to it, and hardly anything about the casinos.

Personally, I think for SR3 there needs to be specific sourcebooks for
UCAS, CAS, and the NAN nations (all NAN in one book), along with the
missing Japan book, etc. I know this won't happen any time soon, but
with all the 'changes' in the timeline, these areas need updating.

--David
Message no. 13
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:49:19 EST
In a message dated 11/13/98 7:44:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
equine@***********.COM writes:

> Ok...just curious as to what types of Native Americans are in the year 2057+
>
> If there is a book on this which one? I might have it but dont remember it
> being in there. A player wants to be a Native American (Amerindian I
> guess) and he wants one of his languages to be something like Sioux or
> whatever the equivalent is now.

Yes there are still Native Americans in 2050+. That is what comprises the NAN
most of the time. The NAN consists of : Trans-Polar Aleut, Algonkian-
Manitiou, Sioux Nation, Ute, Pueblo Corporate Council, Salish Shidhe, and
Tsimschian (sic). Which are located mostly in the central regions of North
America.

As for the books you are referring to, they are the NAN volumes I and II.

And Sioux is a allowable language.

Something else about the Sioux people (as per SR), is that they are a very
prideful people, especially the men. Men are considered warriors as such
anyone not Sioux is someone they need to conquer in some way (the book
describes stand-offs with others that more times than not becomes very
physical in nature).

-Mike
Message no. 14
From: anakin <anakin@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 20:02:49 +1000
David Lightfinger wrote:
Well, I will give you my basic reason for not liking them.

> They are inaccurate.
>
> Now, how can one say this, when it is a fantasy/scifi game set in the
> future? Things like missing the third largest Siouxian tribe in
> existance, putting the Pawnee in the Ute nation when their original
> lands are directly in the Sioux Nation, getting the creator of the
> original Ghost Dance's tribe wrong, etc. bothers me a lot.
>
> For those people who do not see such things in the book (I'm taking a
> Native American studies class currently in college, which skews my views
> on things),



> --David

David,

Enlighten us, not habing much exsperience with native American history
I did not know what the actual facts are. can you elaborate on what you have said
and provide wome details, being a student of history I tend to hate it when people
say these things are innacurate and then not saying what the correct facts are;)

Anakin



--
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All Pigs fed and ready to fly

Each day is better than the next!


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ICQ# 12697398
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:59:07 +0100
According to Ed, at 18:45 on 13 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> If there is a book on this which one? I might have it but dont remember it
> being in there. A player wants to be a Native American (Amerindian I
> guess) and he wants one of his languages to be something like Sioux or
> whatever the equivalent is now.

You can take a look at the Native American Nation books for lists of what
tribes (or whatever they're called) live in which countries. Sioux are
obviously still around, else there would be no Sioux Nation I think :) You
can also go by the language list in SRII to figure this out.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 16
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:51:13 -0500
Quoting Mike Bobroff (Airwasp@***.COM):
> Yes there are still Native Americans in 2050+. That is what comprises the NAN
> most of the time. The NAN consists of : Trans-Polar Aleut, Algonkian-
> Manitiou, Sioux Nation, Ute, Pueblo Corporate Council, Salish Shidhe, and
> Tsimschian (sic). Which are located mostly in the central regions of North
> America.

Though perhaps not considered a Native American Nation, Aztlan also
should have a heavy NA population.

> Something else about the Sioux people (as per SR), is that they are a very
> prideful people, especially the men. Men are considered warriors as such
> anyone not Sioux is someone they need to conquer in some way (the book
> describes stand-offs with others that more times than not becomes very
> physical in nature).

But, of course, remember that while there are real, substantial
differences in the way people from different cultures act, a character should
(hopefully) be more than just a stereotype of their nation :) The effect
will be stronger on the NAN - they probably have a much stronger, more unified
cultural identity than, say, UCAS, since they're old cultures in young
countries, and their power is on the rise - but still, individuals will
differ.
Actually, as a roleplaying resource, my Social Psych course this
quarter has been fascinating, especially on the issue of cultural affects
on personality and behavior.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 17
From: Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:17:10 -0800
> >>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
> >>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that could
> >I just found Vol 1 tonight at Half Price. I love that place! Now if I can
> >only get my hands on Vol 2!
> >
> Been looking for that one for at least a year and a half now. good luck.

Mail Order. It's how I got mine.

--
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Message no. 18
From: Tim Burke <ranger@********.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:15:26 +1000
>Err... maybe I didn't read this right, but wouldn't Native American Nations
>1 and Native American Nations 2 be a good start?
>
>(IMO, good books. Not sure why so many people didn't like them.. I had alot
>of fun reading them, and would like a good chance to use them..)
>
>-Adam

Hell I'd just settle on owning them both
and sitting them on my shelf just to gloat.



Tim Burke
Brisbane, Australia
ranger@********.com.au
#shadowrun: Manx
#950 of 1000

"My karma ran over your dogma."
Message no. 19
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 01:56:29 -0600
anakin wrote:
>
> David Lightfinger wrote:
> Well, I will give you my basic reason for not liking them.
>
> > They are inaccurate.
> >
> > Now, how can one say this, when it is a fantasy/scifi game set in the
> > future? Things like missing the third largest Siouxian tribe in
> > existance, putting the Pawnee in the Ute nation when their original
> > lands are directly in the Sioux Nation, getting the creator of the
> > original Ghost Dance's tribe wrong, etc. bothers me a lot.
> >
> > For those people who do not see such things in the book (I'm taking a
> > Native American studies class currently in college, which skews my views
> > on things),
>
> > --David
>
> David,
>
> Enlighten us, not habing much exsperience with native American history
> I did not know what the actual facts are. can you elaborate on what you have said
> and provide wome details, being a student of history I tend to hate it when people
> say these things are innacurate and then not saying what the correct facts are;)
>

Sure thing :-)

My first point: The Omaha Indian tribe is listed in census figures as
the third largest of the 'Siouxian' based tribes. Nowhere is there a
mention of the Omaha Tribe. Mind you, this sticks in my craw a bit as,
well, I live in Omaha :-) The tribe's reservation is about 3 counties to
the north of me, in Thurston county, Nebraska. Note, the Ponca tribe was
also missing.

Point two: The Pawnee inhabited the panhandle of Nebraska. The panhandle
of Nebraska is inside of the Sioux Nation (whose border is the timeline
shift to Mountain Time) The Pawnee never went as far as Utah or Nevada,
where the Ute Nation exists.

Point three: Wovoka is acknowledged as the original 'creator' of the
Ghost Dance Religion. He was a Paiute, not a Zuni or Hopi as stated in
the Pueblo section.

So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
and updated for 2060+.

--David
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:31:31 +0100
According to David Lightfinger, at 1:56 on 15 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> and updated for 2060+.

So, in short, you have the same problem with the NAN books that everyone
has with the sourcebooks for the areas they live in or know a lot about,
right? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: anakin <anakin@**.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 22:46:31 +1000
David Lightfinger wrote:

> Sure thing :-)
>
> So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> and updated for 2060+.
>
> --David

Thank you very much for that. Since you are studying the topic can you recomend a good
text on the topic, possibly something general that covers a wide range of information.

anakin

--
Don't just do something- Stand There

All Pigs fed and ready to fly

Each day is better than the next!


At last it is here, my first attempt at a web page woo hoo!!

http://www.uq.net.au/~zzahorst/index.htm

ICQ# 12697398
Message no. 22
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:40:23 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, anakin wrote:
/
/ David Lightfinger wrote:
/
/ > Sure thing :-)
/ >
/ > So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
/ > things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
/ > should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
/ > and updated for 2060+.
/ >
/ > --David
/
/ / Thank you very much for that. Since you are studying the topic can
you recomend a good / text on the topic, possibly something general
that covers a wide range of information.

I don't know what David L. has on his bookshelf, but I highly recomend
the "Atlas of the North American Indian" by Carl Waldman, ISBN
0-8160-2136-8. Its a 276 page mapped history of the North American
Indian with good general information.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 23
From: Rook <rook@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:20:59 -0800
> > So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> > things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> > should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> > and updated for 2060+.
>
> So, in short, you have the same problem with the NAN books that everyone
> has with the sourcebooks for the areas they live in or know a lot about,
> right? :)

Actually I'd have to agree with him. He's having trouble with how they
portray events of the past, not the future. While FASA can be 'wrong'
about the future and claim creative license and we can basically
grumble, say how stupid it was, but then go on...
When it comes to the past error is unacceptable. Everything he said
could have been dealt with by going down to the local library and
checking one's data first.
I had similar issues with the NAN books.

But my biggest complaint was that they were so scant. They were not
done to give you a place to set your game; they were done to give you a
place to set one or two adventures. They improved this policy later on
in other books. The current crop of settings books gives much richer
detail. Which when they're wrong is all that more annoying; but at least
you get enough to set a campaign there.


--
Rook ¿Õ ¿ë ±â WebRPG TownHall Magistrate
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Message no. 24
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:25:05 -0600
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> For the mere cost of a Thaum, anakin wrote:
> /
> / David Lightfinger wrote:
> /
> / > Sure thing :-)
> / >
> / > So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> / > things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> / > should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> / > and updated for 2060+.
> / >
> / > --David
> /
> / / Thank you very much for that. Since you are studying the topic can
> you recomend a good / text on the topic, possibly something general
> that covers a wide range of information.
>
> I don't know what David L. has on his bookshelf, but I highly recomend
> the "Atlas of the North American Indian" by Carl Waldman, ISBN
> 0-8160-2136-8. Its a 276 page mapped history of the North American
> Indian with good general information.
>

Most definately. The Atlas costs about $18 in paperback at Barnes and
Noble, but it is worth it.

Some of the other books I have:

American Indian Myths and Legends, by Erdoes and Ortiz
Mystic Warriors of the Plains, by Thomas Mails
Forgotten Founders, by Bruce Johansen (my professor, btw :-)

First book details the various myths by the American Indians, the second
deals with cultural details, and the third talks of how many things the
Indians gave our society.

--David
Message no. 25
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:55:00 -0500
At 12:22 AM 11/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I've looked for 'em, but I've never even laid eyes on 'em. I asked
>FASAMike if there was any possibility of an update, something that could
>show the state of the NAN in 2060, and unfortunately since people didn't
>like the first books... won't be any new ones anytime soon.

I suppose it never once occurred to them (FASA) that the reason nobody
liked them (The NAN Sourcebooks) was because they were poorly done, not
because we didn't want to read about the NAN.

Naw, that's quite a logical leap. ;)

>-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 26
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:23:04 -0600
> He wants to know what languages there are for the Native Americans. Like
> Sioux has well I guess it is Sioux language. Would the Utes have the Ute
> language or do they have different names? Not much of a Native
> American buff.

I think SR1 and SR2 had a listing of both languages under (coincidentally
enough) the Languages section. You may start there, and maybe with a few
internet searches, you should be able to find the info you're looking for.



-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
-David Goth-
Message no. 27
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:46:03 EST
In a message dated 11/15/1998 2:57:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
lightfinger@****.COM writes:

>
> Point three: Wovoka is acknowledged as the original 'creator' of the
> Ghost Dance Religion. He was a Paiute, not a Zuni or Hopi as stated in
> the Pueblo section.

Uh, hold on a second. I remember the Paiute indians as being classified by
advanced social dynamics as a "splinter faction" of another tribe myself.
Just FYI. I had several friends up north of the Zuni reservation when I lived
in AZ. I did learn a couple of pieces of "mindless information that -I- would
not be able to gain much from" in that time being.

> So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> and updated for 2060+.

Then do as other's have suggested. Write up your own variations, and post
them to the Web. I 've done this before, I'll do this again. If you, or
anyone else, would like to do this, let me know, do the work, I'll post it to
the HHH website and accredit your name (complete with goofy little email
link).

-K
Message no. 28
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 00:38:18 -0500
On Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:55:00 -0500 Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
writes:

>I suppose it never once occurred to them (FASA) that the reason nobody
>liked them (The NAN Sourcebooks) was because they were poorly done, not
>because we didn't want to read about the NAN.
>
>Naw, that's quite a logical leap. ;)

Actually, in the e-mail Mike said that's why he figured nobody liked 'em,
because they were less than FASA's best. He'd like to do 'em (well,
maybe not him personally but you get the idea), but the Powers That Be
want things they think'll be more profitable. Like Lady J said, they've
got a busy schedule anyway with the update books.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to go sulk over hard-to-find books.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
*muttermuttersoldcopyofCorporateSecurityHandbookforIgottheremuttermutter*

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Message no. 29
From: David Lightfinger <lightfinger@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 01:01:56 -0600
K in the Shadows wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/15/1998 2:57:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> lightfinger@****.COM writes:
>
> >
> > Point three: Wovoka is acknowledged as the original 'creator' of the
> > Ghost Dance Religion. He was a Paiute, not a Zuni or Hopi as stated in
> > the Pueblo section.
>
> Uh, hold on a second. I remember the Paiute indians as being classified by
> advanced social dynamics as a "splinter faction" of another tribe myself.
> Just FYI. I had several friends up north of the Zuni reservation when I lived
> in AZ. I did learn a couple of pieces of "mindless information that -I- would
> not be able to gain much from" in that time being.

Paiute. Split the word up...Pai-Ute. There is a Northern Paiute, and
Southern Paiute. Usually, they are put with the regular Ute, like you
are suggesting, but they are a separate tribe. Just like there are over
20 different tribes of Apache, etc :-)

>
> > So, though the books were good for those who don't know these minor
> > things and don't care, I site them as examples of why the NAN books
> > should be redone at some point in time, with more accurate information
> > and updated for 2060+.
>
> Then do as other's have suggested. Write up your own variations, and post
> them to the Web. I 've done this before, I'll do this again. If you, or
> anyone else, would like to do this, let me know, do the work, I'll post it to
> the HHH website and accredit your name (complete with goofy little email
> link).
>

Already in the works on my end. :-) It will be put on the Archive when I
get it done.


--David

ps. Coming soon :-) Lightfinger's Travel Guide.
Message no. 30
From: Even_Tømte etomte@******.no
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:28:39 +0200
In the lands covered in the Native American Nations #1 sourcebook , there
are about 65 million inhabitants, the majority being native Americans. I
have not read the NAN #2 book, but there are problably more than a few
living there as well.

I am not sure how many native Americans there are living in the U.S. today,
but I believe there are less than a million - anyway only a fraction of the
number living in the North America in the 2050s.

Is there an explanation for this, or is it just a glitch (intentional or
not) from FASA?

(And by the way; this is my first posting on the ShadowRN list. Hello all.
I'm a Norwegian GM with about five years of experience of playing
Shadowrun, and I'm just about to restart my campaign after some years of
playing other games.)

->Even
Message no. 31
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:42:49 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Even Tømte."
] In the lands covered in the Native American Nations #1 sourcebook , there
] are about 65 million inhabitants, the majority being native Americans. I
] have not read the NAN #2 book, but there are problably more than a few
] living there as well.

44,381,000 total, in the four nations in NAN2.

] I am not sure how many native Americans there are living in the U.S. today,
] but I believe there are less than a million - anyway only a fraction of the
] number living in the North America in the 2050s.
]
] Is there an explanation for this, or is it just a glitch (intentional or
] not) from FASA?

Well, the books say that anyone who could prove even the slightest
bit of native ancestry was considered native, and thus allowed
citizenship. Then there's immigration, which might be pretty high,
considering the disgustingness of Seattle :), and the vast volumes of
land in the NAN. Then there's the pinkskin tribes, who were
Americans/Canadians who were allowed to stay, and form their own tribes.
I don't know how plausible the increase in population is, even given
those reasons, but there you are.

] (And by the way; this is my first posting on the ShadowRN list. Hello all.
] I'm a Norwegian GM with about five years of experience of playing
] Shadowrun, and I'm just about to restart my campaign after some years of
] playing other games.)

Glad to hear from you :)

-Murder of One
Message no. 32
From: Kenneth Vinson kennethv@****.wisc.edu
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:42:55 -0500
Even Tømte wrote:

> In the lands covered in the Native American Nations #1 sourcebook , there
> are about 65 million inhabitants, the majority being native Americans. I
> have not read the NAN #2 book, but there are problably more than a few
> living there as well.
>
> I am not sure how many native Americans there are living in the U.S. today,
> but I believe there are less than a million - anyway only a fraction of the
> number living in the North America in the 2050s.
>
> Is there an explanation for this, or is it just a glitch (intentional or
> not) from FASA?
>
> (And by the way; this is my first posting on the ShadowRN list. Hello all.
> I'm a Norwegian GM with about five years of experience of playing
> Shadowrun, and I'm just about to restart my campaign after some years of
> playing other games.)
>
> ->Even

Welcome aboard! I noticed the same discrepancy not too long ago as being just
one of many such demographic absurdities scattered through the Shadowrun
literature. I could not rationalize the current Native American population of,
as you said, approximately 1 million into a population of 65 million a mere
fifty years later. One can assume that some number of Anglos stayed in the NAN
and that the standards of how much Native American blood one must have to
qualify as Amerind is pretty low but that still doesn't account for the kind of
growth indicated by NAN #1. All this also doesn't take into account how many
Native Americans died in the Reeducation camps, the war with the USA, and in
the Great Ghost Dance. Nix that last one, probably not enough people died in
Ghost Dance to be statistically significant. Anyways, point is, that you
should take any population statistic that FASA publishes with a rather large
grain of salt.

Cheers,

Ken Vinson


--
Kenneth H. Vinson
Office 608/263-6733 :: kenneth.vinson@****.wisc.edu
Student Worker/Data Archivist :: UW Space Science & Engineering Center
1018 AOSS Bldg, 1225 W. Dayton St., Madison, WI, 53706 USA
Message no. 33
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:56:38 -0700
Hello;

You're not the first and won't be the last to notice this. You posting
sounds like my own first posting the first time I joined this list in
fact.

What I assume in my game is that the NAN's needing a good population
allowed for anyone with any provable record of a native american in
their ancestry somewhere at all to be classed as a native.

That would add to the list most people from places like Oaklohoma. Also
people with some "Oakie/Hillbilly" blood in those places the "Oakies"
fled to during the dust bowl era in the 1930's.

That might get the numbers up to 10 to 30 million or so. From there you
have aggressive family planning like that seen in Singapore where the
government gives perks to people of one ethnicity for having >X
children, and perks to another for having <X children. ANd then switches
it around every generation or so to try and keep a balance...

But yes, in today's world there are less than 1 million native
americans in north america. That includes anyone who answers to native
american in a census pole. Which I believe requires 1/8 or 1/4.
Adding in Central and South America it comes to rouphly 30 million but
that fails to include the Mulato (Mixed race people of Indian, Spanish,
and Black mostly. Some Chinese and German also though) population.


> In the lands covered in the Native American Nations #1 sourcebook , there
> are about 65 million inhabitants, the majority being native Americans. I
> have not read the NAN #2 book, but there are problably more than a few
> living there as well.
>
> I am not sure how many native Americans there are living in the U.S. today,
> but I believe there are less than a million - anyway only a fraction of the
> number living in the North America in the 2050s.
>
> Is there an explanation for this, or is it just a glitch (intentional or
> not) from FASA?
>
> (And by the way; this is my first posting on the ShadowRN list. Hello all.
> I'm a Norwegian GM with about five years of experience of playing
> Shadowrun, and I'm just about to restart my campaign after some years of
> playing other games.)
Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Native Americans
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:00:50 +0200
According to Even Tømte, at 22:28 on 21 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> I am not sure how many native Americans there are living in the U.S. today,
> but I believe there are less than a million - anyway only a fraction of the
> number living in the North America in the 2050s.
>
> Is there an explanation for this, or is it just a glitch (intentional or
> not) from FASA?

Part of the explanation is that anyone who was even remotely related to a
native American got counted as one by the NAN. IIRC currently the "rule"
is that if one of your grandparents is a native American, so are you; the
NAN stretched this to its limits, so that one remote ancestor is enough.
Additionally, there are still plenty of "Anglos" (whites) and
"pinkskins"
(whites who live like indians) in the NAN, which also adds to the numbers.

Or, of course, the government encourages everyone to breed like rabbits :)

> (And by the way; this is my first posting on the ShadowRN list. Hello all.

Welcome. The Bull-bot seems to be on-line again, so you might get a
greeting from it, too :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Now all of them have gone or changed
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Further Reading

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