Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Christopher C Mooney <ccmooney@********.CA>
Subject: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:56:04 -0400
Something that has always bothered me about N.A.N. I & II is the
seemingly inflated population figures that are included in the facts and
figures. Many of them claim numbers in the tens of millions, a figure
which is ridiculous given their current numbers. Here in Canada I
believe that just over 1% of our entire population is full blooded.
(Let's say roughly 275 000 from a Canadian total pop. of ~28 million.) I
_assume_ that the percentage would be similar south of the border,
thereby equating to roughly 2.5 - 3 million. Even if one is to include
the Metis and non-status Native American populations for both countries,
surely they couldn't total more than, say, 7-8 million? Yet most of the
N.A.N.'s by 2050 have between 5 and 60 million inhabitants. I'm as
willing as anyone to let small game discrepancies go by unchecked but
this is preposterous. Even allowing for 70 years of optimal pop. growth,
there's still no chance of even coming close to the numbers.
I know that the first point most of you will present is the presence
of the "pink-skinned" tribe members, but there's no way that these alone
can account of the totals - if they did, the N.A.N.'s would again find
themselves overwhelmed by a sea of non-natives.
If anyone has any enlightening points on this issue, I'd
appreciate reading any well-reasoned arguments. Or perhaps I'm simply
overlooking some terribly obvious element which neatly explains it all.
On a second unrelated point, after having filled up two +
screens, I would like to make a plea for brevity to this group. There is
nothing more irritating (and TIME CONSUMING!) then to have to scroll
through screen after screen of unedited discussion merely to read
someone's two-line comment. (And often a snide one at that.) I'd love it
if people could make a greater use of that 'cut text' options that most
must have.
Cheers,
Japes.
Message no. 2
From: Jonathan Kevin Lee <jkl7@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:12:38 -0400
> Something that has always bothered me about N.A.N. I & II is the
>seemingly inflated population figures that are included in the facts and
>figures. Many of them claim numbers in the tens of millions, a figure
>which is ridiculous given their current numbers.

I've noticed that too and it has always bothered me. I cannot think of a
decent explaination either so if anyone out there has one, I'd like to hear
it too.
Message no. 3
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:44:46 -0400
> Something that has always bothered me about N.A.N. I & II is the
> seemingly inflated population figures that are included in the facts and
> figures. Many of them claim numbers in the tens of millions, a figure
> which is ridiculous given their current numbers. Here in Canada I
> believe that just over 1% of our entire population is full blooded.
>
> [Rest of well-reasoned statistical inference deleted]

The point you're missing is, I'm almost-but-not-100%-sure, given in NAN v1.
I seem to remember a comment that in an effort to repopulate, the Nations
seriously relaxed the restrictions on what it means to be tribal. If you
can claim any direct blood whatsoever then you were pretty much in. And
as long as you stayed in line with the government, they probably weren't
too strict about your proving it. I believe this was true after the Treaty
of Denver.. It probably isn't by the 2050's.

The U.S. government works the same way today. If you're 1/16th Native
American then you're eligible for the scholarships and other deals that are
offered. I've also heard that you can officially register yourself as fully
Native American (so that your kids would be 1/2 NA instead of 1/32, and so
on), but I'm not sure whether to believe that one.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|"The belief that enhanced understanding will
My opinions are my opinions. |necessarily stir a nation to action is one of
Please don't blame anyone else. |mankind's oldest illusions." - Hacker's Law
Message no. 4
From: Simon Paul Stroud <s_sps4@*******.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:28:37 +1000
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> The point you're missing is, I'm almost-but-not-100%-sure, given in NAN v1.
> I seem to remember a comment that in an effort to repopulate, the Nations
> seriously relaxed the restrictions on what it means to be tribal. If you
> can claim any direct blood whatsoever then you were pretty much in. And
> as long as you stayed in line with the government, they probably weren't
> too strict about your proving it. I believe this was true after the Treaty
> of Denver.. It probably isn't by the 2050's.
>
> The U.S. government works the same way today. If you're 1/16th Native
> American then you're eligible for the scholarships and other deals that are
> offered. I've also heard that you can officially register yourself as fully
> Native American (so that your kids would be 1/2 NA instead of 1/32, and so
> on), but I'm not sure whether to believe that one.
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> _TNX._
>

Okay, sure that certainly explains the numbers, but how could the N.A.N.
then be as anti-white (or anti-non-native american) as they are supposed
to be in the books.
Just a minor point,
Horus.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
S.F. Eley said on 5 Oct 95...

> The point you're missing is, I'm almost-but-not-100%-sure, given in NAN v1.
> I seem to remember a comment that in an effort to repopulate, the Nations
> seriously relaxed the restrictions on what it means to be tribal. If you
> can claim any direct blood whatsoever then you were pretty much in.

Sort of like Israel (right Martin? :)

> The U.S. government works the same way today. If you're 1/16th Native
> American then you're eligible for the scholarships and other deals that are
> offered. I've also heard that you can officially register yourself as fully
> Native American (so that your kids would be 1/2 NA instead of 1/32, and so
> on), but I'm not sure whether to believe that one.

Which is a bit weird, on't you think? Sure, this does wonders to prevent
the reduction in indiginous (sp?) population but only statistically...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:04:20 -0400
Horus writes:
> On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:
> > The point you're missing is, I'm almost-but-not-100%-sure, given in NAN v1.
> > I seem to remember a comment that in an effort to repopulate, the Nations
> > seriously relaxed the restrictions on what it means to be tribal.
>
> Okay, sure that certainly explains the numbers, but how could the N.A.N.
> then be as anti-white (or anti-non-native american) as they are supposed
> to be in the books.
> Just a minor point,
> Horus.

Because the people they're accepting aren't white. They're full-blooded
Native American. The government says so, so it MUST be true. >8->


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Nondeterminism means never
Please don't blame anyone else. | having to say you're wrong."
Message no. 7
From: "Jeremy T. Fox" <fox@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:36:44 -0500
This is one of my pet peeves, and a few years ago I actually did some
population comparisons between SR and real life. To sum up, there are
about 50 times more indians in the fantasy world of shadowrun than in the
life USA and Canada. Remember, the world population as a whole (mainly
due to VITAS) has gone by several billion.

Conclusion: the NAN as presented in SR is either a sop to poliitcally
correct revisionist historians or a pathetic attempt to the make the SR
world "cool" or "different".



Jeremy T. Fox Baker College
fox@****.edu Rice University
(713) 630-8024 6320 S. Main St.
Student Computer Consultant Houston TX, 77005
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Jeremy T. Fox said on 6 Oct 95...

> Conclusion: the NAN as presented in SR is either a sop to poliitcally
> correct revisionist historians or a pathetic attempt to the make the SR
> world "cool" or "different".

Or they're using magic (OOOOHH! That word again! :) in the same was as the
folks down in Amazonia, but instead of trees they grow people with it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:01:11 +0930
Gurth wrote:
> Or they're using magic (OOOOHH! That word again! :) in the same was as the
> folks down in Amazonia, but instead of trees they grow people with it :)

Or they didn't get two thirds of their population wiped out by VITAS, like
everyone else. And it could also be that the figures aren't just
Amerindians, or that the definition of Amerindian is a bit looser than
current terminology.

The population figures ARE acceptable, given a slightly looser definition,
and given that they didn't loose much population, and have had several
years of relative peace. What it DOES mean, though, is that they are going
through a baby boom... (Ever looked at the population growth figures for
post world-war II?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 10
From: Simon Paul Stroud <s_sps4@*******.ITS.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:08:29 +1000
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> Horus writes:
> > On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:
> > > The point you're missing is, I'm almost-but-not-100%-sure, given in NAN v1.
> > > I seem to remember a comment that in an effort to repopulate, the Nations
> > > seriously relaxed the restrictions on what it means to be tribal.
> >
> > Okay, sure that certainly explains the numbers, but how could the N.A.N.
> > then be as anti-white (or anti-non-native american) as they are supposed
> > to be in the books.
> > Just a minor point,
> > Horus.
>
> Because the people they're accepting aren't white. They're full-blooded
> Native American. The government says so, so it MUST be true. >8->
>
>
> Blessings,
>
> _TNX._

So then how does one tell a "full-bloooded"(in the government sense) Native
American from a white tourist/shadowrunner. (And no, I don't want
comments like, 'well, he's got two cyberarms and an assault cannon).

Horus.
Message no. 11
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:35:36 +0100
Gurth wrote:
>
> Jeremy T. Fox said on 6 Oct 95...
>
> > Conclusion: the NAN as presented in SR is either a sop to poliitcally
> > correct revisionist historians or a pathetic attempt to the make the SR
> > world "cool" or "different".
>
> Or they're using magic (OOOOHH! That word again! :) in the same was as the
> folks down in Amazonia, but instead of trees they grow people with it :)

Or they got themselves some kindy laws allowing all sorts of naughty
things :)

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 12
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Native Amer. Nations Population Figures
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:13:26 -0500
> Or they got themselves some kindy laws allowing all sorts of naughty
>things :)

Could be an increased fertility rate.

Or it could be azi.

5 brownie points and an autographed copy of Shadowland #1 to the first
person to identify that reference...

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Native Amer. Nations Population Figures, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.