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From:	jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:26:12 +0100

Message no. 1 I've currently reached an interesting point in my Shadowrun campaign, and
I'd like to hear your input on this.

Backstory for the last run:

A notable fixer in Seattle who specialized in talislegging and smuggling of
magical items recently "acquired" a potent focus called the "Wolf's
Fang"
from the Salish-Sidhe council. As it happened, it was sacred to a group of
wolf shapeshifters who are part of the Nootka tribe (I choose the Nootka
tribe because (a) it didn't have its own special "schtick", and (b) it seems
to be large enough that it might be conceivable that it has wolf
shapeshifters hiding among its members) and they want it back pretty badly.
So they sent off a group of five wolf shapeshifters (including an adept and
a shaman) to retrieve it.

In the meantime, the fixer tried to sell it - and thus it attracted the
attention of a traditional "witchcraft" coven in Seattle. Unfortunately, the
fixer asked a too high price - and thus the coven turned to one of its
members (a troll "shamanist" from Germany of the Dragonslayer totem called
"Warhammer") to steal it. Said troll was one of the PCs, and he dutifully
hired his fellow team mates and went to work.

The PCs successfully infiltrated the fixer's mansion, killed or knocked most
of his staff out (the latter happened to the fixer as well), and after
severely damaging several walls managed to find the small safe with the
Fang. But as they were about to leave, they encountered four wolf
shapeshifters (as well as a very pesky storm spirit who hid in the blizzard
above them and smote them with thunderbolts), and after a very suspenseful
battle managed to defeat them. However, the shapeshifter shaman, who had
tagged along in the astral plane, managed to follow them back to the coven
(they were driving _very_ slowly, because (a) their rigger was unconscious
and the rest were seriously injured, and (b) they were driving through a
freaking blizzard).

So now they know where the coven is, and could conceivably stage a full
assault on it. Especially their leader, an adept who is so badass that he
can _bite through concrete_ (he has the "smashing blow" power) is pissed
that he was dropped by the first spell thrown in his direction.

However, none of the shapeshifters were actually killed (they were all
dropped by stunbolts), despite the fact that it would have been easy for the
runners to kill them while they were unconscious. And this has to count for
something (although it probably wasn't intentional - it's just that the
troll shamanist was the first to encounter them, and as it happens, stun
spells _are_ the best strategy against critters that can regenerate...) - so
maybe the shapeshifters feel honor-bound not to use lethal force against the
runners as well.

So I thought that instead of just trying to assault the coven and the
runners, it would be more fun if the shapeshifters (and some Amerind allies,
if neccessary) threw some sort of ritual challenge at them - fun because (a)
none of the runners (or the players) have a clue about Native American
traditions, and (b) the coven has strictures of Obedience and Secrecy, thus
making it necessary for the troll to avoid giving his teammates all the
details on why and for whom they are fighting...

So, has anyone of you any good ideas for such ritual challenges? I'm not
very knowledgeable about Native American traditions myself - and I have even
less of a clue for how they would apply to wolf shapeshifters...

- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html

From:	chipeloi@*.nl (chipeloi@*.nl)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 01 Dec 2003 01:26:44 +0100

Message no. 2 On 30 Nov 2003 at 22:26, Jürgen Hubert wrote:

> I've currently reached an interesting point in my Shadowrun campaign, and
> I'd like to hear your input on this.
>
> Backstory for the last run:

>SNIP<

>> So, has anyone of you any good ideas for such ritual challenges? I'm not
> very knowledgeable about Native American traditions myself - and I have even
> less of a clue for how they would apply to wolf shapeshifters...

Well i have to say cool idea for the run.
First of : shapshifter are animals who chance into humans, they are wolves.
So how do wolves fight over something important to them ? (territory or food).
Blend in some rituals they would like: maybe lots of running around, screaming, pissing
all
over the place (to mark territory) Blend in rituals with animal behaviour.
The one Big but is: why would the pc's use there rules?.
The shapeshifter might (not) know that they are far more powerful hand to hand they might
allow the pc's to use weapons or go berserk if they do.
They might ask them to fight them or demand (with back up if the pc's say no)
I would set up a ritual combat ring, or big woodland area where they fight it out.
Maby with some (very) good magical healing back up (as the pc's didn't kill them), getting

the fang back might be a problem if they win or lose as the wolves would have to find a
way
to get the lodge to back the players up with the fang or els the ritual combat is for
nothing.
And if the wolves are just cutting them to pieces, as they would go after the mage first,
send
in a hunting team from a big corp to capture some new living weapon toys for the research
department.
The pc's would have the choise to either help the wolves or just keep quite and tell the
world
they won.
If they help or the wolves escape they might stil have to fight them(as they are wolves,
one
enemie is defeated another is stil here lets fight it and make sure they get the point)

Just some thoughts

Chipeloi

From:	scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:07:53 +0100

Message no. 3 On Sunday, Nov 30, 2003, at 22:26 Europe/Paris, Jürgen Hubert wrote:

> So they sent off a group of five wolf shapeshifters (including an
> adept and
> a shaman) to retrieve it.
>

My first thought was there would be no problem with the five
shapeshifters getting back anything since that is an extraordinarily
powerful team!
>
> The PCs successfully infiltrated the fixer's mansion, killed or
> knocked most
> of his staff out (the latter happened to the fixer as well), and after
> severely damaging several walls managed to find the small safe with the
> Fang. But as they were about to leave, they encountered four wolf
> shapeshifters (as well as a very pesky storm spirit who hid in the
> blizzard
> above them and smote them with thunderbolts), and after a very
> suspenseful
> battle managed to defeat them.

What? I could not imagine any reasonable team defeating a group of 5
experienced shapeshifters without doing a LOT of damage.
>
> However, none of the shapeshifters were actually killed (they were all
> dropped by stunbolts), despite the fact that it would have been easy
> for the
> runners to kill them while they were unconscious. And this has to
> count for
> something (although it probably wasn't intentional - it's just that the
> troll shamanist was the first to encounter them, and as it happens,
> stun
> spells _are_ the best strategy against critters that can
> regenerate...) - so
> maybe the shapeshifters feel honor-bound not to use lethal force
> against the
> runners as well.
>
>
Aha! The difference is you play that regeneration does not regenerate
stun. Normally one expects regeneration to regenerate ALL damage each
combat turn (assuming the creature makes the appropriate rolls in cases
like Deadly damage, etc.).

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

From:	jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:34:29 +0100

Message no. 4 ----- Original Message -----
From: <chipeloi@***.nl>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge

On 30 Nov 2003 at 22:26, Jürgen Hubert wrote:
>
> > I've currently reached an interesting point in my Shadowrun campaign,
and
> > I'd like to hear your input on this.
> >
> > Backstory for the last run:
>
> >SNIP<
>
> > So, has anyone of you any good ideas for such ritual challenges? I'm not
> > very knowledgeable about Native American traditions myself - and I have
even
> > less of a clue for how they would apply to wolf shapeshifters...
>
>
> Well i have to say cool idea for the run.
> First of : shapshifter are animals who chance into humans, they are
wolves.
> So how do wolves fight over something important to them ? (territory or
food).
> Blend in some rituals they would like: maybe lots of running around,
screaming, pissing all
> over the place (to mark territory) Blend in rituals with animal behaviour.

Sounds good - but _what_ rituals? Does anyone here know enough of Native
American folklore to make any suggestions?

What I thought of was that some item should be delivered to the troll's
doorstep, which signifies the declaration of the challenge - and this should
be obvious to anyone knowledgeable in Native American traditions and utterly
baffling to anyone else.

> The one Big but is: why would the pc's use there rules?.

In the beginning, they probably wouldn't and react the usual paranoid
shadowrunner way (i.e., shooting anything in sight). Since they aren't dumb,
the shapeshifters will probably realize this, and will mostly stay out of
sight and the challenge will be confined to harassment until the PCs figure
out what the hell is going on.

They will probably haunt the PCs' favorite hangouts and let themselves
spotted in public places where the PCs cannot resort to shooting without
severe repercussions.

> The shapeshifter might (not) know that they are far more powerful hand to
hand they might
> allow the pc's to use weapons or go berserk if they do.

Actually, that's another humiliating point - two of the shapeshifters were
fighting the troll for several rounds in tooth-to-hand combat, and despite
the fact that the troll was seriously injured didn't even inflict a light
wound (the armor implants and the pain editor that still allowed him to
fight effectively probably helped there... ;) ).

It's different with the adept, but the others will probably be leery of
fighting him again - and his magical powers will make sure that they only
dare approach him under bad visibility conditions (visibility modifiers -
the greatest enemy of mages...).

> They might ask them to fight them or demand (with back up if the pc's say
no)

This will probably be at a point when the PCs realize that it is better
agreeing to this than suffer continued harassment...

> I would set up a ritual combat ring, or big woodland area where they fight
it out.

Sounds good.

> Maby with some (very) good magical healing back up (as the pc's didn't
kill them), getting
> the fang back might be a problem if they win or lose as the wolves would
have to find a way
> to get the lodge to back the players up with the fang or els the ritual
combat is for nothing.

Well, that's the troll's problem - the shapeshifters have no idea that the
others aren't involved in the coven - or that they don't even know of it's
existence.

Life certainly isn't fair... ;-)

- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html

From:	jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:20:13 +0100

Message no. 5 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@**********.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge

On Sunday, Nov 30, 2003, at 22:26 Europe/Paris, Jürgen Hubert wrote
>
> > However, none of the shapeshifters were actually killed (they were all
> > dropped by stunbolts), despite the fact that it would have been easy
> > for the
> > runners to kill them while they were unconscious. And this has to
> > count for
> > something (although it probably wasn't intentional - it's just that the
> > troll shamanist was the first to encounter them, and as it happens,
> > stun
> > spells _are_ the best strategy against critters that can
> > regenerate...) - so
> > maybe the shapeshifters feel honor-bound not to use lethal force
> > against the
> > runners as well.
> >
> >
> Aha! The difference is you play that regeneration does not regenerate
> stun. Normally one expects regeneration to regenerate ALL damage each
> combat turn (assuming the creature makes the appropriate rolls in cases
> like Deadly damage, etc.).

Well, since I don't have the Critters booklet, I don't know how Regeneration
works in SR3, but I would assume that it doesn't affect stun damage - or
else shapeshifer mages would be ridiculously powerful. After all, why worry
about drain if you can just regenerate it next turn?

- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html

From:	jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 1 Dec 2003 12:20:16 +0100

Message no. 6 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@**********.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge

On Sunday, Nov 30, 2003, at 22:26 Europe/Paris, Jürgen Hubert wrote:

> So they sent off a group of five wolf shapeshifters (including an
> adept and
> a shaman) to retrieve it.
>

My first thought was there would be no problem with the five
shapeshifters getting back anything since that is an extraordinarily
powerful team!
>
> The PCs successfully infiltrated the fixer's mansion, killed or
> knocked most
> of his staff out (the latter happened to the fixer as well), and after
> severely damaging several walls managed to find the small safe with the
> Fang. But as they were about to leave, they encountered four wolf
> shapeshifters (as well as a very pesky storm spirit who hid in the
> blizzard
> above them and smote them with thunderbolts), and after a very
> suspenseful
> battle managed to defeat them.

What? I could not imagine any reasonable team defeating a group of 5
experienced shapeshifters without doing a LOT of damage.
>
> However, none of the shapeshifters were actually killed (they were all
> dropped by stunbolts), despite the fact that it would have been easy
> for the
> runners to kill them while they were unconscious. And this has to
> count for
> something (although it probably wasn't intentional - it's just that the
> troll shamanist was the first to encounter them, and as it happens,
> stun
> spells _are_ the best strategy against critters that can
> regenerate...) - so
> maybe the shapeshifters feel honor-bound not to use lethal force
> against the
> runners as well.
>
>
Aha! The difference is you play that regeneration does not regenerate
stun. Normally one expects regeneration to regenerate ALL damage each
combat turn (assuming the creature makes the appropriate rolls in cases
like Deadly damage, etc.).

--
Scott Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86

From:	anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:54:11 -0800

Message no. 7 On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 11:34:29 +0100
Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <chipeloi@***.nl>
> To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 1:26 AM
> Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
>
>
> On 30 Nov 2003 at 22:26, Jürgen Hubert wrote:
> >
> >
> Sounds good - but _what_ rituals? Does anyone here know enough of Native
> American folklore to make any suggestions?

Ya know, there are thousands of Amerindian tribes, and they all have
different rituals. They are spread across a big place and have little
motivation to standardize things. Try lore for tribes near the adventure
site, the Washington State tribes, I suppose. No, I have no clue where you'd
look.
--Anders

From:	danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 01 Dec 2003 15:52:33 -0500

Message no. 8 >So, has anyone of you any good ideas for such ritual challenges? I'm not
very knowledgeable about Native American traditions myself - and I have even
less of a clue for how they would apply to wolf shapeshifters...

I would send the magic group a coup stick with symbols on it describing 5
challenges, best of 3 wins, and if you are a kind GM you could say the
runner group already earned one point and cross of a challenge on the stick.
The stick would be an offer for a non-lethal challenge, and failing to
accept it would mean the shapechangers would take a different route. The
winner gets the magic item. Of course, since the group has the item, they
could negotiate for a service from the shapechangers if they win (or just
try trading the item for a service or three, not very exciting except for
roleplaying types).

Challenges could include:

Ritual Sorcery - such as find a certain greater Forest Spirit or against
someone neither the wolves nor the magic group like.
Hunting - whether something simple like who can bring in the most steaks in
24 hours or take down a certain amount of piasmas first.
Stealing - the group could just try to guard the item while the wolves
formally attempt to take it, but having a challenge for who can get the most
cars, horses, or telesma might be more fun.
Defeat an Enemy - anyone too big to take out, but both groups dislike. Any
corporation could be fair game. There would be a time limit and whoever did
the most "damage" to the enemies is the winner.
Endurance - a race, eating contest, wrestling, etc. Not meant to be combat.
If people like mental puzzles it could be made into a Road Rally sort of
thing were puzzles made by a third party are at set points telling where the
next point is. The 3rd party could be a spirit or just a company that does
these sorts of things.
Exploration - be the first to go somewhere neither party has been and bring
back evidence of it. Could be a rare bird from the Tir, a plant from the
Mojave, etc. Something that isn't available on eBay.
Artistic - a poetry or storytelling contest, sand painting, totem pole
carving, or whatever the tribe likes. Could be dancing and smoking all night
or until one party drops from exhaustion (sort of like Endurance, but using
the rarely touched upon skills).
Riddles - as commonly told, but could have requirements that the answer or
question be in a certain language, no items or words from post 1600 AD are
allowed, etc. (Anyone got a language chip?)

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From:	jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen_Hubert)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:46:02 +0100

Message no. 9 ----- Original Message -----
From: "D. T" <danturek@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge

> >So, has anyone of you any good ideas for such ritual challenges? I'm not
> very knowledgeable about Native American traditions myself - and I have
even
> less of a clue for how they would apply to wolf shapeshifters...
>
>
> I would send the magic group a coup stick with symbols on it describing 5
> challenges, best of 3 wins, and if you are a kind GM you could say the
> runner group already earned one point and cross of a challenge on the
stick.
> The stick would be an offer for a non-lethal challenge, and failing to
> accept it would mean the shapechangers would take a different route. The
> winner gets the magic item. Of course, since the group has the item, they
> could negotiate for a service from the shapechangers if they win (or just
> try trading the item for a service or three, not very exciting except for
> roleplaying types).

[snip]

Great suggestion! Any idea what such a coup stick would look like?

- Jürgen Hubert

Urbis - A World of Cities
http://juergen.the-huberts.net/dnd/urbis/index.html

From:	anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:37:59 -0800

Message no. 10 On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 22:46:02 +0100
Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "D. T" <danturek@*******.com>
> To: <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2003 9:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
>
>
> [Greater Snip(e)]
> [snip]
>
> Great suggestion! Any idea what such a coup stick would look like?
>
>
> - Jürgen Hubert
pictured on this site:
http://www.mountainridgetrading.com/dance.html>;

--Anders

From:	dreamrhythm@*******.com (Dream Rhythm)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Tue, 02 Dec 2003 15:53:27 -0500

Message no. 11 Jürgen Hubert wrote:

>Well, since I don't have the Critters booklet, I don't know how
>Regeneration
.works in SR3, but I would assume that it doesn't affect stun damage - or
>else shapeshifer mages would be ridiculously powerful. After all, why worry
>about drain if you can just regenerate it next turn?

Damage from Drain is never regenerated. Even Drain damage that is Physical
is not regenerated. All Drain is kept track of seperately, as it is deemed a
special case.

By the book, whenever a regenerating creature takes Deadly Damage, they have
to roll 1d6, with a resulting 1 (or 2 in some cases) meaning no
regeneration. It goes on to state that 'in all other cases, the regenerating
creature suffers any associated wound penalties until the end of the turn,
at which time all its wounds are regenerated'. The key points being the
phrase 'in all other cases', and the lack of anything limiting the results
to purely Physical wounds.

glenn

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From:	danturek@*******.com (D. T)
Subject:	Native Shapeshifter Ritual Challenge
Date:	Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:38:52 -0500

Message no. 12 >Any idea what such a coup stick would look like?

- Jürgen Hubert

>From
http://www.askeric.org/Virtual/Lessons/crossroads/sec3/k2/unit1/u1g1l1.html

3. Plains warriors like the Dakota, Crow, Pawnee, Cheyenne, and Arapaho took
Coup (rhymes with blue) sticks with them into battle. The warriors used coup
sticks (about the same height as a man) to touch live enemies--not to kill
them. A warrior who got close enough to an enemy was considered far braver
than one who killed him with a bow and arrow from a distance. An eagle
feather could be earned for each coup in battle. Indians felt it required
more courage to touch an enemy and leave him unhurt than to attack him.

How to make a coup stick. Use stick of 12 to 24 inches. Wrap paper stripes
or ribbon spiral around the stick and glue them. Use yarn to tie on real or
paper feathers.

While I doubt that is highly accurate (it appears to be a 1st Grade project
to learn American Indian culture) what few pictures I could find (again,
mostly artistic representations) seem to agree it is a short stick, less
than 3' in length (or at least not longer than the arm holding it) with
obvious blunt, or sometimes padded (with fur) ends and minimal decoration
(so in the 6th World you should have less fear it is some kind of magic
weapon). The most popular decoration being feathers, presumably from an
eagle. One picture showed a decorated strap attached to the stick, which I
guess could be used as a handle, but I would decorate the strap with tiny
beads to make a picture, or something like that to describe what the
challenge is about. The winner could keep the strap (unless these challenges
crop up often), but the coup stick definitely goes back to the original
owner.

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