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Message no. 1
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:34:58 GMT
I had somewhat of a revalation recently and I was wondering if any of you
guys can relate to it; whist reading through Mage The Ascention I realised
that I can find a Nature and Demeanor that fits pretty much every character
in every SR game I have ever played.

Do you think SR missed out not having a system like that? (ED has a list of
characteristics that players have to choose and stick to, and I'm sure tehre
are others out there) There is nothing in SR3 to push new players towards
roleplaying, sure, edges and flaws do but a lot of new players tend to play
themselves with guns. OTOH, systems like that can be a bit restrictive and
I don't always find it easy to pick them for starting characters.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 2
From: TechnoMage TechnoMage@***.net
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:44:54 +0100
> I had somewhat of a revalation recently and I was wondering if any of you
> guys can relate to it; whist reading through Mage The Ascention I
> realised
> that I can find a Nature and Demeanor that fits pretty much every
> character
> in every SR game I have ever played.
>
> Do you think SR missed out not having a system like that? (ED has
> a list of
> characteristics that players have to choose and stick to, and I'm
> sure tehre
> are others out there) There is nothing in SR3 to push new players towards
> roleplaying, sure, edges and flaws do but a lot of new players
> tend to play
> themselves with guns. OTOH, systems like that can be a bit
> restrictive and
> I don't always find it easy to pick them for starting characters.

I don't like the system. I always give the characters a nature because you
need it to regain your willpower but at the point demeanor i write always:
by-play because i don't know at the character creation how i will play the
character and i don't want to erase 5 times the demeanor until i find the
correct one...

Inccubus
Message no. 3
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 13:08:29 GMT
>From: "TechnoMage" <TechnoMage@***.net>
>I don't like the system. I always give the characters a nature because you
>need it to regain your willpower but at the point demeanor i write always:
>by-play because i don't know at the character creation how i will play the
>character and i don't want to erase 5 times the demeanor until i find the
>correct one...

I got that a little; my machiavellian Ventrue went through doemanor;
absolute bastard, then coniver, rebel (bordering on deviant), and now we
have had to make up one called maveric to fit. Its a lot of trouble to go
to, but I've realized on reflection that the system is scarily insightful.

Phil

Dying is an art like everything else.
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Message no. 4
From: Thomas Calderon vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 11:46:35 -0500
On Sat, 04 Nov 2000 11:34:58 GMT "Phil Smith"
<phil_urbanhell@*******.com> writes:
> I had somewhat of a revalation recently and I was wondering if any of
> you
> guys can relate to it; whist reading through Mage The Ascention I
> realised
> that I can find a Nature and Demeanor that fits pretty much every
> character
> in every SR game I have ever played.
>

This is why I've never liked Alignment/Nature. Ther is NO "one true Path"
for any PC I've ever played. (well, Chaotic Neutral, since it encompasses
everything... :-)

OTOH, I do think the lack of such a system tends to make new players more
ammoral. Without a guide saying "you're lawful good you have to be nice"
or somesuch, they tend to do whatever they want. But, once you move past
that, te systems are more restrictive to roleplayers that WILL build a
complete history and code of ethics, etc.

For instance, is decking into random systems for cash as immoral as it
seems to me?
A decker in a campaign wanted to start knocking over Blue Hosts (not much
cash, but they're easy) and it struck me..
"what if every blue host is some mom-and-pop store that the PC just
bankrupted through their greed?"
(sure, they have to maintain a certain level of business before they even
have a matrix host, but the point still stands I think)
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Message no. 5
From: Augustus shadowrun@********.net
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 10:09:13 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <phil_urbanhell@*******.com>

> Do you think SR missed out not having a system like that? (ED has a list
of
> characteristics that players have to choose and stick to, and I'm sure
tehre
> are others out there) There is nothing in SR3 to push new players towards
> roleplaying, sure, edges and flaws do but a lot of new players tend to
play
> themselves with guns. OTOH, systems like that can be a bit restrictive
and
> I don't always find it easy to pick them for starting characters.

I've never really liked anything like this for my players... Its just like
alignment in D&D, really (though obviously more broader). You run in to
problems where you can end up arguing with PCs of what they might really do
if they stuck to the alignment/nature/demeanor they chose for their PC.

But did Shadowrun really miss the boat on this one? SR1 and 2 had the "20
questions" section in character generation... and SR3 still maintains at the
end of character creation that the final step should be to come up with your
PCs history and background.

I still use the 20 questions thing to a degree... but more as a guideline to
help PCs flesh out their own history.

A good character history/background/philosophy will cover alot more, and to
more detail, than any nature/alignment/demeanor ever will.

But... on that same note... you have to do with what you feel works for
yourself and your players (or other players in your group if you are a
player). With either method you can still end up as the "anarchistic
rabble rouser"... either picking it as what labels you best, or by saying
"thats who I am and this is why..."

Augustus
Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:17:11 +0100
According to Phil Smith, on Sat, 04 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> I had somewhat of a revalation recently and I was wondering if any of you
> guys can relate to it; whist reading through Mage The Ascention I realised
> that I can find a Nature and Demeanor that fits pretty much every character
> in every SR game I have ever played.
>
> Do you think SR missed out not having a system like that?

No, I don't think it does. These are a way to try and force players to
roleplay by making them choose a certain personality archetype and then
trusting the other players to apply some peer pressure. Any good roleplayer
can do this by themselves without having to write it on their character
sheet, while for players who can't, the GM can fairly easily tell them to
select a few personality traits and write them down, then keep an eye on
it. IMO natures and demeanors in the Storyteller system way are not
something SR is in dire need of; the only reason I would make a player
actually select them in a Storyteller is because they regulate the
replenishing of your Willpower as well (and even that's obviously a way to
enforce roleplaying, because if you don't your Willpower won't go up).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 19:24:24 +0100
According to Thomas Calderon, on Sat, 04 Nov 2000 the word on the street
was...

> For instance, is decking into random systems for cash as immoral as it
> seems to me?
> A decker in a campaign wanted to start knocking over Blue Hosts (not much
> cash, but they're easy) and it struck me..
> "what if every blue host is some mom-and-pop store that the PC just
> bankrupted through their greed?"
> (sure, they have to maintain a certain level of business before they even
> have a matrix host, but the point still stands I think)

Well, you could assume they're insured against this, so the decker is
actually acting like a good neo-anarchist and hitting the megacorps :)

(The obvious flaw in this reasoning being that, if insurance companies have
to pay out a lot, they raise the fees so that the little store is still
getting bankrupted by the decker...)

I think the way to avoid this behavior, if you want to, is to tell the
decker's player about it. The player can then decide whether or not the
character would care or not, and proceeed accordingly.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The less of a life, the more mail you read.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: K MacKenzie kat@**.sympatico.ca
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2000 19:39:47 -0500
> According to Thomas Calderon, on Sat, 04 Nov 2000 the word on the street
> was...
>
> > For instance, is decking into random systems for cash as immoral as it
> > seems to me?
> > A decker in a campaign wanted to start knocking over Blue Hosts (not mu> ch
> > cash, but they're easy) and it struck me..
> > "what if every blue host is some mom-and-pop store that the PC just
> > bankrupted through their greed?"
> > (sure, they have to maintain a certain level of business before they ev> en
> > have a matrix host, but the point still stands I think)
>
> Well, you could assume they're insured against this, so the decker is
> actually acting like a good neo-anarchist and hitting the megacorps :)
>
> (The obvious flaw in this reasoning being that, if insurance companies ha> ve
> to pay out a lot, they raise the fees so that the little store is still
> getting bankrupted by the decker...)
>
> I think the way to avoid this behavior, if you want to, is to tell the
> decker's player about it. The player can then decide whether or not the
> character would care or not, and proceeed accordingly.
>

The other thing a GM could do is with a player who steals from every Blue Host
they can get a nuyen from is to use it as a campaign starter. Some of these Mom &
Pops stores are fronts for other organizations ie: the Mafia. They would not be
too please to have some too bit decker putting their mitts where it doesn't
belong. Said decker could find themselves hunted; set up for something bigger;
owned by said organization until the debt is paid <well, in theory they would be
released after the debt is paid. ;) > I would let players do anything they wish
to if they could justify that their character would act in such a behaviour from
their background and are willing to pay the price. I would also use the
opportunity to make like interesting for said player.

Kat
Message no. 9
From: Lars Wagner Hansen l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 21:43:17 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: Augustus <shadowrun@********.net>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Natures And Demeanors
>
> But did Shadowrun really miss the boat on this one? SR1 and 2 had the "20
> questions" section in character generation... and SR3 still maintains at
the
> end of character creation that the final step should be to come up with
your
> PCs history and background.
>
> I still use the 20 questions thing to a degree... but more as a guideline
to
> help PCs flesh out their own history.

SR1 never officially had the 20 questions, they were not introduced until
SR2 hit the shelves. And SR3 still have the 20 questions, they are in the SR
Companion revised for 3rd Edition.

Lars
--
The solution to many problems lies in having somebody else do the work.
[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]
--
Lars Wagner Hansen mailto:l-hansen@*****.tele.dk
Jagtvej 11 http://home4.inet.tele.dk/l-hansen
DK-4180 Sorø phone +45 5783 5950
Denmark
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:34:26 -0800 (PST)
> > (The obvious flaw in this reasoning being that, if
insurance companies have to pay out a lot, they raise
the fees so that the little store is still getting
bankrupted by the decker...)
<snipt!(TM)>

The other obvious flaws is that Blue hosts should
contain squat-all in the way of paying data.

I envision something like this...

GM: How long do you want to go searching for paydata?

Decker: Oh, say, three hours?

GM: And you're sticking to Blue hosts?

Decker: Yup.

GM: Okay, don't worry about rolling. Blue hosts don't
have any security worth mentioning. Let's see. You
make a grand total of...1d6 divided by two, times
*mumble, mumble*...150 nuyen.

:)

Maybe not that little, but you get the picture. Almost
EVERYONE with data worth ANYTHING on the Matrix is
going to have at LEAST a green level system and the
decker is going to have to work a little bit at the
very least.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 11
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:38:26 -0800 (PST)
> > (The obvious flaw in this reasoning being that, if
insurance companies have to pay out a lot, they raise
the fees so that the little store is still getting
bankrupted by the decker...)
<snipt!(TM)>

The other obvious flaws is that Blue hosts should
contain squat-all in the way of paying data.

I envision something like this...

GM: How long do you want to go searching for paydata?

Decker: Oh, say, three hours?

GM: And you're sticking to Blue hosts?

Decker: Yup.

GM: Okay, don't worry about rolling. Blue hosts don't
have any security worth mentioning. Let's see. You
make a grand total of...1d6 divided by two, times
*mumble, mumble*...150 nuyen.

:)

Maybe not that little, but you get the picture. Almost
EVERYONE with data worth ANYTHING on the Matrix is
going to have at LEAST a green level system and the
decker is going to have to work a little bit at the
very least.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:41:42 -0800 (PST)
> > (The obvious flaw in this reasoning being that, if
insurance companies have to pay out a lot, they raise
the fees so that the little store is still getting
bankrupted by the decker...)
<snipt!(TM)>

The other obvious flaws is that Blue hosts should
contain squat-all in the way of paying data.

I envision something like this...

GM: How long do you want to go searching for paydata?

Decker: Oh, say, three hours?

GM: And you're sticking to Blue hosts?

Decker: Yup.

GM: Okay, don't worry about rolling. Blue hosts don't
have any security worth mentioning. Let's see. You
make a grand total of...1d6 divided by two, times
*mumble, mumble*...150 nuyen.

:)

Maybe not that little, but you get the picture. Almost
EVERYONE with data worth ANYTHING on the Matrix is
going to have at LEAST a green level system and the
decker is going to have to work a little bit at the
very least.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 13
From: vocenoctum@****.com vocenoctum@****.com
Subject: Natures And Demeanors
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:55:46 -0500
On Sun, 5 Nov 2000 23:34:26 -0800 (PST) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
> The other obvious flaws is that Blue hosts should
> contain squat-all in the way of paying data.
>
> I envision something like this...
<snip>
> GM: Okay, don't worry about rolling. Blue hosts don't
> have any security worth mentioning. Let's see. You
> make a grand total of...1d6 divided by two, times
> *mumble, mumble*...150 nuyen.
>
> :)
>

I'm at work (waiting on some guns to arrive :-) so don't have Matrix here
with me, but the problem is, Matrix lists an amount that decking system X
provides. Sure a GM can tinker with teh numbers, but I'd rather police
the decker himself instead of having him feel that I'm shorting him on
his "hard earned cash".
I won't go into the argument's that led to me simply splitting ways with
that player anyway, and so it's not really a current problem, just a
thought process linked to Ethics/Morals.
Also, I can imagine a decker sitting there waiting for the flash of a
matrix upload that signals the small store closing their transactions for
the night (assuming their banking is electronic and not continually
hooked via Matrix link, but only operates occasionally)
"what do you mean I just downloaded his uplinked chain-letter/mail virus
and not his banking?"

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