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Message no. 1
From: Mark Kalvin <Sahtori@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nature Spirit Attacks (the home team advantage)
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:45:54 -0500
In response to this posting by an unidentified sender:

> I was looking through the stats for Nature Spirits, and it seems to me that
> only very few of them can actually attack someone. None of them have any
> form of attack. A couple have Powers which can do damage, such as EMP, but
> none of them can bash you over the head with a steel pipe or anything like
> that. This makes them rather less useful when compared to elementals in my
> view.

feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE (Jani Fikouras) wrote the following:

>Yes, but the "on the fly summoning" of spirits does give them an advantage
>over elementals. I mean mages have to devote a "slot" to keep an elemental
>in their service - so it would be logical that they wont waist this "slot"
>(I am refering to the charisma limit) by summoning a low level elemental.
>OTOH this means that they'll get fewer successes in their test ergo fewer
>services. This means that a mage will be most reluctant in using that one
>sevice his force 10 elemental ows him, whereas a shaman can easily summon
>a force 2 say spirit on the fly getting loads of successes they can use
>without a second thought. Now combine this with nifty powers like accident,
>alienation, and my personal favourite confusion and you get some pretty
>usefull spirits :)

It seems that only people who play Shamans and Hermetics know and care about
this stuff:-).

In order to defend the home-team advantage, I have to say that just as one
can and must think creatively about Nature Spirits, one must also think that
way about elementals. Yes, it is true that the charisma limit does leave
Hermetics without the ability to have spirits on tap quickly and cheaply
(something that leaves my character seething with jealousy:-)) but elemental
services, even from weak elementals are extremely useful: Low-level
elementals can be summoned with minimal drain to maintain spells, to aid
study, or to provide dice for some other magical task and, as you pointed
out, the weaker the spirit, the more services you can demand of it. Also,
when you first enter the game as a Mage, if you are properly introduced to
the rules and concepts of the game, you will immediatly see that you should
probably not choose to stumble around the game as the only elf in the world
with a charisma of one. :-)

I think that the people who designed the game showed a lot of wisdom in their
storytelling when they decided to create the break, the wall, that exists
between the powers and characteristics of Mages and Shamans: for the purposes
of storytelling, it is much easier to imagine mages being involved in the
pure, Western European, "I-make-the-world-do-what-I-want-it-to" kind of power
that elementals demonstrate-do what you can for me, anything, anytime,
anywhere. Whereas shamans are set up to coorperate with the forces of nature,
with their immediate environments. Nature spirits display really wonderful
powers that I sometimes wish my Hermetic Initiate character could replicate
(hmm....spell research :-)) but it really seems fitting, appropriate to the
implied mindset, for a mage to be able to do something like summoning a
watcher to identify the person giving orders in an enemy group and then
ordering a fire elemental to follow the watcher and cause that person great
discomfort_without regard to whether or not I am standing on land and the
person waving and shouting is standing in a boat on a lake where I can't see
him.

Pax et dominus, etc.

Mark Kalvin (Sahtori@***.com).
Message no. 2
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Nature Spirit Attacks (the home team advantage)
Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 13:10:20 +0100
> It seems that only people who play Shamans and Hermetics know and care about
> this stuff:-).

I totaly agree :) nice post btw.

> In order to defend the home-team advantage, I have to say that just as one
> can and must think creatively about Nature Spirits, one must also think that
> way about elementals.

I agree, the thing is though that all the nifty powers of elementals
canot be used "under fire". They are designed to make research/complicated
stuff easier. Now dont get me wrong I like it this way, its just like you said
this makes the game interesting and makes the differences between the shamanic
hermetic philosophy clear.

> Yes, it is true that the charisma limit does leave
> Hermetics without the ability to have spirits on tap quickly and cheaply
> (something that leaves my character seething with jealousy:-))

I can sympathise with that :)

> but elemental
> services, even from weak elementals are extremely useful: Low-level
> elementals can be summoned with minimal drain to maintain spells, to aid
> study, or to provide dice for some other magical task and, as you pointed
> out, the weaker the spirit, the more services you can demand of it.

Well things like sustaininf spells dont count cause you can do them
beforehand. Summon a force 10 elemental order it to sustain a spell and
sleep off the drain. BTW this probably a stupid question, but here goes
if a mage has a force 10 elemental with one service and he orders it to
sustain a spell - this uses the elemental up no matter how many services
it owes to the mage - can said mage summon another in its place ?

> Also,
> when you first enter the game as a Mage, if you are properly introduced to
> the rules and concepts of the game, you will immediatly see that you should
> probably not choose to stumble around the game as the only elf in the world
> with a charisma of one. :-)

Well dont tell me that, I always have an 8 - it goes hand in hand with a
6 in willpower :)

> I think that the people who designed the game showed a lot of wisdom in their
> storytelling when they decided to create the break, the wall, that exists

I fully agree, magic in SR is so cool :) As a matter of fact the whole
system is so incredibly perfect :)

> Pax et dominus, etc.

Yep :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Nature Spirit Attacks (the home team advantage)
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:48:40 +0100
>if a mage has a force 10 elemental with one service and he orders it to
>sustain a spell - this uses the elemental up no matter how many services
>it owes to the mage - can said mage summon another in its place ?

Not until the first elemental has left the mage's service.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Sanity is a full time job
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

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