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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Wed Sep 19 17:35:01 2001

Message no. 1 This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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In a past run a group I was with was looking for access into a magical orders compound
from below. Being in the bowels of a religious monument in Paris we found naturally
catacombs with corpses (skeletons mostly)

Naturally the necromancer in me got the urge to ask "Would it be possible to animate
a bunch of skeletons to help lay seige/provide destraction..."

Of course with no karma to spend hard to quicken a spell ;)

So why relate this?

Just wondering:

How "fragile" would an animated skeleton be?

The animate spell says you can't operate individual parts does this mean you could not
place a gun in an animated "body" so it could fire it? Or would it be limited to
swinging things (ie a sword)

On another note this bunch liked to rob banks, so as helpful as I wanted to be I suggested
rigging up an animated statue with an intercom speaker to do the job.

How resistant to dmg would such a golem be? And how fast would either an animated skeleton
or statue be? (not much use if the rent a cops could waltz a complete waltz around an
animated object in the time it would take for it to complete its first attack)

Lastly: Say a limb is blown off a construct would reataching the limb make it part of the
spell again or would a recasting be necessary to have the limb working "As it
should". In such case it strikes that the limb and original construct would act as
seperate animated constructs...

Just some random thoughts about Animate and its limitations/boundaries...

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In a past run a group I was with was
looking for
access into a magical orders compound from below. Being in the bowels of a
religious monument in Paris we found naturally catacombs with corpses (skeletons
mostly)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Naturally the necromancer in me got the
urge to ask
"Would it be possible to animate a bunch of skeletons to help lay seige/provide
destraction..."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Of course with no karma to spend hard
to quicken a
spell ;)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So why relate
this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just
wondering:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How "fragile" would an
animated skeleton
be?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The animate spell says you can't
operate individual
parts does this mean you could not place a gun in an animated "body" so
it
could fire it? Or would it be limited to swinging things (ie a
sword)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On another note this bunch liked to rob
banks, so
as helpful as I wanted to be I suggested rigging up an animated statue with an
intercom speaker to do the job.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How resistant to dmg would such a golem
be? And how
fast would either an animated skeleton or statue be? (not much use if the rent a
cops could waltz a complete waltz around an animated object in the time it would
take for it to complete its first attack)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lastly: Say a limb is blown off a
construct would
reataching the limb make it part of the spell again or would a recasting be
necessary to have the limb working "As it should". In such case it strikes that
the limb and original construct would act as seperate animated
constructs...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just some random thoughts about Animate
and its
limitations/boundaries...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Wed Sep 19 23:10:01 2001

Message no. 2 On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Jonathan wrote:

> In a past run a group I was with was looking for access into a magical
> orders compound from below. Being in the bowels of a religious
> monument in Paris we found naturally catacombs with corpses
> (skeletons mostly)

> Naturally the necromancer in me got the urge to ask "Would it be possible
> to animate a bunch of skeletons to help lay seige/provide
> destraction..."

> Of course with no karma to spend hard to quicken a spell ;)

> So why relate this?

> Just wondering:

> How "fragile" would an animated skeleton be?

> The animate spell says you can't operate individual parts does this
> mean you could not place a gun in an animated "body" so it could
> fire it? Or would it be limited to swinging things (ie a sword)

> On another note this bunch liked to rob banks, so as helpful as I
> wanted to be I suggested rigging up an animated statue with an
> intercom speaker to do the job.

> How resistant to dmg would such a golem be? And how fast would
> either an animated skeleton or statue be? (not much use if the rent
> a cops could waltz a complete waltz around an animated object in the
> time it would take for it to complete its first attack)

> Lastly: Say a limb is blown off a construct would reataching the
> limb make it part of the spell again or would a recasting be
> necessary to have the limb working "As it should". In such case it
> strikes that the limb and original construct would act as seperate
> animated constructs...

> Just some random thoughts about Animate and its limitations/boundaries...

Okay, so, I've been playing around with true necromantic spells in
SRun and came to a few conclusions:

1. You can't do skeleton animation with just magic. As literally
stated, "Magic is not sentient". What this one sentence means is that
for a necromancer to have a skeleton friend, he cannot use a simple
spell. (Ie: He can 'animate' the skeleton with just magic, but its
like a puppeteer show. The mage can't look at the skeleton and say,
"Guard here and beat anyone up that goes through that door." because
the skeleton is under the control of the mage. The mage has to be the
intelligence behind the skeleton.)

2. Animating a skeleton shouldn't be as hard as summoning a
spirit. The reason for this is that the skeleton serves as the
'material' componet. The problem is the fact that you have to "breath
life" into the bones on the ground in order to get it to move around,
not summon something from another plane to come and obey your every
command.

So, I came up with two solutions. The first I call
"meta-raising". The second I call "Spirit raising". Note that I
haven't actually designed mechanics for this because I need to have
someone play test with me. But I have designed the basic system
underwhich to work and the actual mechanics can come a bit later.

Meta-raising is the process by which a necromancer "donates" essence
to raise the skeleton. Sounds weird, right? Well, here's how I
conceptualized it. The necro in question says, "I want to raise a
skeleton." The necro then 'donates' part of his essence to maintain
the skeleton. The necro casts the spell like any other. If the
necro succeeds, the bag of bones hops up and begins moving around
and takes drain. If he fails, he takes drain.

While the skeleton is animated, the necro has an effective essence of
(Necro_Essence - Donated_Essence). This means that a necro with 6
essence can have 5 skeletons (Each skeleton has 1 essence and the
necro has 1 essence). Note that this works off of essence, so the most
a necro can *ever* have is 5 skeletons.

If the necro is knocked unconcious, the skeleton(s) remain for an
essence based time, then fall back into bones. The essence from the
skeletons "returns" to the necro.

The base attributes and statistics of the skeletons is based off of
the amount of essence 'donated' to it. So, a 5 essence skeleton is
going to be stronger, meaner, and tougher. Note that skeletons have
almost *no* intelligence. In my design, I've placed an ultimate
restriction on skeletons that they have 1 intelligence and are like
watcher spirits in the respect of intelligence. Another thing I stated
is that skeletons are invincible to mana based spells.

"Why?" the invulnerability you ask? Well, because the skeletons aren't
actually alive. They're just animated with part of the necro's
personality. Also, skeletons don't have a stun bar. They only have a
physical damage bar. Once it's filled, they crumble into bones on the
ground and the essence returns to the necro.

So, this is the basic outline for my idea that I cooked up over Summer
that I haven't had a chance to implement.

The second idea is based off of the voodoo magic section in the magic
supplements (The name of the book I base this off of eludes me right
now. I can't remember exactly which book it is. I'm thinking it was
"Magic in the Shadows", but I'll have to get back on that). The second
idea is that a necromancer can summon a spirit to inhabit the
skeleton.

While sort of like the first, this second option has some
variations. The first is that skeletons attributes and abilities are
based on the force of the spirit summoned. Second is that the
skeletons are vulnerable to mana spirits. This is because the
skeletons are now inhabited by something "living" that can be damaged
by will based spells. Third, if the necromancer is knocked out or
killed, the spirit has a chance of going free and remaining on
our plane instead of going home. Fourth, the necromancer can
theoretically control an infinite number of skeletons. Unlike normal
spirits, once bound back into their physical form, these spirits do
not return to their home plane at the end of the day or when their
services are used up. They have to stay and are under the control of
the necromancer.

The process for this involves bringing back a part of the dead person
and binding them to the skeleton in question. Icky, scary, and
downright dangerous if the skeleton should get free (Most dead people
don't like being ripped out of whatever plane they were in). The
actual mechanics of this should take place like they do for summoning
any other spirit. I would also add a mechanic that would make it so
that after time, the spirit inhabiting the skeleton gets a chance to
return to his home plane. For example, maybe make a roll every
(Number of successes on summoning roll) days against an increasing
target number (Starting at 4) to see if the spirit is ripped free of
our plane and returned home by the forces of nature.

Anyway, these are the basic necromancy rules that I've begun
developing myself. If you try them out or actually come up with any
indepth mechanics, please send me a yell to tell me how it came out
and with what numbers/rolls you actually used.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (NightLife)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Wed Sep 19 23:45:01 2001

Message no. 3 At 11:07 PM 9/19/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Jonathan wrote:
>
> > In a past run a group I was with was looking for access into a magical
> > orders compound from below. Being in the bowels of a religious
> > monument in Paris we found naturally catacombs with corpses
> > (skeletons mostly)
>
> > Naturally the necromancer in me got the urge to ask "Would it be possible
> > to animate a bunch of skeletons to help lay seige/provide
> > destraction..."

Speaking of nercomancy does anybody have that netbook from Night's Pawn?

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Thu Sep 20 06:10:09 2001

Message no. 4 According to Jonathan, on Wed, 19 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...

> Naturally the necromancer in me got the urge to ask "Would it be possible
> to animate a bunch of skeletons to help lay seige/provide destraction..."

Wouldn't it be easier to get a bunch shedim into the area? :)

> How "fragile" would an animated skeleton be?

On the whole, I'd say firearms wouldn't hurt it much, but a good hack with
a sword or some similar weapon (axe, club, etc.) would do a lot more
damage. Call it in Invulnerability to ranged attacks, and a Vulnerability
to melee attacks -- or, if you wish, Invulnerability to piercing attacks
and a Vulnerability to slashing and bludgeoning ones :)

> The animate spell says you can't operate individual parts does this mean
> you could not place a gun in an animated "body" so it could fire it? Or
> would it be limited to swinging things (ie a sword)

IMHO, it wouldn't be able to fire the gun for the reason you mentioned.
Swinging it, or a sword or club, would be possible, though.

> How resistant to dmg would such a golem be?

Use its normal Barrier Rating. Making the statue from reinforced concrete
or bits of steel welded together would be a good idea, IMHO.

> And how fast would either an
> animated skeleton or statue be? (not much use if the rent a cops could
> waltz a complete waltz around an animated object in the time it would
> take for it to complete its first attack)

That's mentioned in the spell description: successes x Magic rating.

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--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Ahrain Drigar)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Thu Sep 20 11:05:01 2001

Message no. 5 ----- Original Message -----
From: Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Necromancy and the fun of Animate

> Okay, so, I've been playing around with true necromantic spells in
> SRun and came to a few conclusions:
>
<SNIP>
> While the skeleton is animated, the necro has an effective essence of
> (Necro_Essence - Donated_Essence). This means that a necro with 6
> essence can have 5 skeletons (Each skeleton has 1 essence and the
> necro has 1 essence). Note that this works off of essence, so the most
> a necro can *ever* have is 5 skeletons.

Since Essence and the Magic attribute are so integraly linked, why not use
Magic insted of Essence? That way more powerful mages would be able to
animate more or have fewer more powerful skeletons. This would have a
double edge where the mage wouldn't be able to use those attribute (and
hence Pool) dice for anything else until they are released from the
skeleton. Just an idea.

> If the necro is knocked unconcious, the skeleton(s) remain for an
> essence based time, then fall back into bones. The essence from the
> skeletons "returns" to the necro.
>
> The base attributes and statistics of the skeletons is based off of
> the amount of essence 'donated' to it. So, a 5 essence skeleton is
> going to be stronger, meaner, and tougher. Note that skeletons have
> almost *no* intelligence. In my design, I've placed an ultimate
> restriction on skeletons that they have 1 intelligence and are like
> watcher spirits in the respect of intelligence. Another thing I stated
> is that skeletons are invincible to mana based spells.

That brings up a good point. Since watchers are not what you would call
"true" spirits why not use Conjuring for skeletons. Treat skeletons as the
Necromantic watcher, much like "Thought Forms" are the spirits for
Psionicists? This would give them varying attributes and a limited
intelligence as well.

> Anyway, these are the basic necromancy rules that I've begun
> developing myself. If you try them out or actually come up with any
> indepth mechanics, please send me a yell to tell me how it came out
> and with what numbers/rolls you actually used.

I'm not exactly playing right now, but if I get some free time I can play
with a few numbers if you don't have any. At least to see how it looks.

Ahrain

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Thu Sep 20 11:05:04 2001

Message no. 6 > Wouldn't it be easier to get a bunch shedim into the area? :)
>

*Blinks and scratches head*

What the slag is a shedim? :)

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Fri Sep 21 04:55:01 2001

Message no. 7 On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Ahrain Drigar wrote:

> Since Essence and the Magic attribute are so integraly linked, why not use
> Magic insted of Essence? That way more powerful mages would be able to
> animate more or have fewer more powerful skeletons. This would have a
> double edge where the mage wouldn't be able to use those attribute (and
> hence Pool) dice for anything else until they are released from the
> skeleton. Just an idea.

I thought about this, but I had two problems with using Magic over
Essence.

1. I didn't see the action as imbuing the skeleton with Magical
energy, rather as loaning the skeleton enough essence to walk
around. I see it as a way of loaning the skeleton enough life to move
around and become living again.

2. I didn't want anyone to control more than a few skeletons at a
time. The idea of a necro with more than 5 skeletons worries me.

By the way, the temporary Essence loss does affect Magic Rating. When
you lose Essence, your Magic Rating goes down, aye? ;-) So here, I
have the best of both worlds.

> That brings up a good point. Since watchers are not what you would call
> "true" spirits why not use Conjuring for skeletons. Treat skeletons as the
> Necromantic watcher, much like "Thought Forms" are the spirits for
> Psionicists? This would give them varying attributes and a limited
> intelligence as well.

That is what my second idea is, essentially. The first is a Sorcery
way of "summoning" skeletons. It's not really summoning though, it's
the movement of essence. The second way is a way to
"conjure" skeletons. But it isn't really conjuring as you are using
the skeleton as a material focus to bind the person's spririt back to
the skeleton.

I think of the first way as the "Animation Path" and the second way as
the "Summoning Path". I'm not sure which one I like more yet, I'm
attached to both right now. Unless playtesting reveals that one or the
other is completely unuseable, I'll probably try to find a way to work
both in.

> I'm not exactly playing right now, but if I get some free time I can play
> with a few numbers if you don't have any. At least to see how it looks.

Please tell me the results if you try any of this. Through in a Necro
NPC or something to see how the characters act or treat it. I wouldn't
suggest letting players get ahold of this as the rules may result in
problems.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Fri Sep 21 06:15:05 2001

Message no. 8 According to Jonathan, on Thu, 20 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...

> > Wouldn't it be easier to get a bunch shedim into the area? :)

(Hmm, I missed an "of" there..."

> *Blinks and scratches head*
>
> What the slag is a shedim? :)

You obvously don't own Year of the Comet :) Slight spoiler space for those
who might not want to know yet:

Shedim are spirits that can inhabit dead bodies, thereby animating them.
The only problem is that you can't conjure them (or so it's claimed) and
they have this tendency of killing people and eating their brains, but...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject:	Necromancy and the fun of Animate
Date:	Fri Sep 21 08:55:01 2001

Message no. 9 > You obvously don't own Year of the Comet :) Slight spoiler space for those
> who might not want to know yet:
>
>
>

Ah I see funky :)

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