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Message no. 1
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:19:18 -0600
Neural signals are electro-chemical signals, not electronic ones. They travel
much slower than electronic signals which are slightly slower than the speed of
light in a vacuum. A neuron firing sort of "snaps the whip" and a region of
different electrical charge ripples down the axon (long wire part of a neuron).
Replacing neurons with electrical signals would in fact speed up the travel of
signals
>
> Double-Domed Mike
>
hmmm,
one: electricity is about 1/10 the speed of light, at best (good conduction)

two: the signal must be converted from nerve to elec. to nerve again,
the speed of this conversion may affect the speed.

three: optical must be converted from (chemical)nerve to light and back.
but would increase the speed.

unfortunately, the distance involved is so small, a telling difference
between any of the three systems is unlikely.light would take 1x10 -8 sec
to travel the one meter. electricity, 1x 10-7 sec, and nerve, who knows?

what slows things down is the response time of the brain, analysis of the
situation, and preparation and sending of the response instructions.
which would take on the order of tenths of a second, so the total time
involved is relatively insensitive to the transmission medium...

A friend told me that the reason animals react so much faster than
humans is that they spend substantially less time deciding what to do.
Message no. 2
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:09:51 -0500
Brian Johnson wrote:

>hmmm, one: electricity is about 1/10 the speed of light, at best (good
>conduction)

But the speed of the wave front of the signal passing through a conductor was
much higher, I thought? Or is that what you are refering to?

Other than that, yes I almost completely agree. Wired Reflexes must speed up
the brain primarily, or it won't work. (Although, especially for your distant parts
like your legs, some rewiring of the long nerves would be quite useful as part of
Wired Reflexes 2 or 3)

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 3
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:27:48 UT
>Neural signals are electro-chemical signals, not electronic ones. They
travel
<SNIP>
>situation, and preparation and sending of the response instructions.
>which would take on the order of tenths of a second, so the total time
>involved is relatively insensitive to the transmission medium...
>
>A friend told me that the reason animals react so much faster than
>humans is that they spend substantially less time deciding what to do.
The big problem with humans is that we worry about consiquences of our
actions, we have to calculate what might happen if we do X, We have to plan
everything, (This might just be me, but when I know I am about to do something
I will have this internal dialouge going on trying to run through all possible
consiquences and options. this can quite happily go on for hours.) Anywho, ( i
might be wrong on this) but there is this guy called doc holiday who was
diagnosed with a terminal illness, he then became a gun slinger (did I say
this was about 150 yrs ago?) who didn't realy care what would happen so he
went up against people twice as fast as him and basicaly out drew them coz he
didn't have to think 'oh krist what happens if I die?' that cut his reaction
time down quite alot. (Now I was doing this from mem. so that might be right,
the other possiblity would be that he freacked the other guy out coz he didn't
care about dieing.)

Tim (not the other one)
Message no. 4
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:40:04 UT
>>hmmm, one: electricity is about 1/10 the speed of light, at best (good
>>conduction)
>
>But the speed of the wave front of the signal passing through a conductor
>was
>much higher, I thought? Or is that what you are refering to?
>
>Other than that, yes I almost completely agree. Wired Reflexes must >speed
up
>the brain primarily, or it won't work. (Although, especially for your
distant >parts
>like your legs, some rewiring of the long nerves would be quite useful as
>part of
>Wired Reflexes 2 or 3)
>
>Double-Domed Mike
Wired reflexs don't neccessarerlay (who said I could spell? (note I spelt
spell wrong on the first attempt)) need to speed up the brain. If I remeber
rightly from GCSE Science (ask Digital mage I can't be bothered) the brain
doesn't control all movement, some thig goto the spine. the example I do
remeber is when you touch something hot you pull your hand away, this is
invoulentary and you need to make a consious efort to stop it. however you can
think 'put hand there and keep it there' which means that you will keep it
there. :-) Okay feel free to flame. I specialise in physic, chem, and maths.
biology is too fluffy.
******************************************************************************
*******
tim (not the other one)
wondering-why-people-put-these-things-after-their-names-mongoose-shamen-and-GM
.
Message no. 5
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply -Reply
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:11:27 -0500
>Wired reflexs don't neccessarerlay (who said I could spell? (note I spelt spell
>wrong on the first attempt)) need to speed up the brain. If I remeber rightly from
>GCSE Science (ask Digital mage I can't be bothered) the brain doesn't control
>all movement, some thig goto the spine. the example I do remeber is when you
>touch something hot you pull your hand away, this is invoulentary and you need
>to make a consious efort to stop it. however you can think 'put hand there and
>keep it there' which means that you will keep it there. :-) Okay feel free to flame.
>I specialise in physic, chem, and maths. biology is too fluffy.
>******************************************************************************
>******* tim (not the other one)

You're right, but you're wrong. Replacing neurons w/ wires would certainly speed
up reflexes (in the narrower scientific sense of the word) but would not help much
with firing guns at bad guys. For that, you need to do at least a partial re-wiring
of the cerebellum. IMHO Wired-1 does a bit in the cerebellum and Wired-3 is an
almost total replacement of the cerebellum with silicon.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 6
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:34:06 -0800
> >A friend told me that the reason animals react so much faster than
> >humans is that they spend substantially less time deciding what to do.

> The big problem with humans is that we worry about consiquences of our
> actions, we have to calculate what might happen if we do X, We have to plan
> everything, (This might just be me, but when I know I am about to do something
> I will have this internal dialouge going on trying to run through all possible
> consiquences and options. this can quite happily go on for hours.) Anywho, ( i
> might be wrong on this) but there is this guy called doc holiday who was
> diagnosed with a terminal illness, he then became a gun slinger (did I say
> this was about 150 yrs ago?) who didn't realy care what would happen so he
> went up against people twice as fast as him and basicaly out drew them coz he
> didn't have to think 'oh krist what happens if I die?' that cut his reaction
> time down quite alot. (Now I was doing this from mem. so that might be right,
> the other possiblity would be that he freacked the other guy out coz he didn't
> care about dieing.)
>
> Tim (not the other one)

It's called "Paralysis by Analysis"...

~Tim (not-Tim, or the inverse of Tim)
Message no. 7
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:14:50 UT
----------
From: Shadowrun Discussion on behalf of Timothy P Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 9:34 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric

>> >A friend told me that the reason animals react so much faster than
>> >humans is that they spend substantially less time deciding what to do.

>> The big problem with humans is that we worry about consiquences of our
>> actions, we have to calculate what might happen if we do X, We have to plan
>> everything, (This might just be me, but when I know I am about to do
something
>> I will have this internal dialouge going on trying to run through all
possible
>> consiquences and options. this can quite happily go on for hours.) Anywho,
( i
>> might be wrong on this) but there is this guy called doc holiday who was
>> diagnosed with a terminal illness, he then became a gun slinger (did I say
>> this was about 150 yrs ago?) who didn't realy care what would happen so he
>> went up against people twice as fast as him and basicaly out drew them coz
he
>> didn't have to think 'oh krist what happens if I die?' that cut his
reaction
>> time down quite alot. (Now I was doing this from mem. so that might be
right,
>> the other possiblity would be that he freacked the other guy out coz he
didn't
>> care about dieing.)
>>
>> Tim (not the other one)

>It's called "Paralysis by Analysis"...

>~Tim (not-Tim, or the inverse of Tim)
Huh?
Tim (not the other one) (this could get real confusing :-) )
Message no. 8
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply -Reply
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:10:55 UT
>>Wired reflexs don't neccessarerlay (who said I could spell? (note I spelt
spell
>>wrong on the first attempt)) need to speed up the brain. If I remeber
rightly from
>>GCSE Science (ask Digital mage I can't be bothered) the brain doesn't
control
>>all movement, some thig goto the spine. the example I do remeber is when you
>>touch something hot you pull your hand away, this is invoulentary and you
need
>>to make a consious efort to stop it. however you can think 'put hand there
and
>>keep it there' which means that you will keep it there. :-) Okay feel free
to flame.
>>I specialise in physic, chem, and maths. biology is too fluffy.
>>****************************************************************************
**
>>******* tim (not the other one)

>You're right, but you're wrong. Replacing neurons w/ wires would certainly
speed
>up reflexes (in the narrower scientific sense of the word) but would not help
much
>with firing guns at bad guys. For that, you need to do at least a partial
re-wiring
>of the cerebellum. IMHO Wired-1 does a bit in the cerebellum and Wired-3 is
an
>almost total replacement of the cerebellum with silicon.

>Double-Domed Mike

Great Point except they don't in a specific sence relate to the original
message, I was talking about reflex reactions, you go on to talk about
replcing the neurons/wires and silicon/cerebellum, of course combing the two
and it get quite a kewl post, full 3 wired refs would require a load of stuff
in the spine as well as the cerebellum. note have a look at the MBW systems
diagram it is at the top of the spine and has nothing to do with the
cerebellum.

Tim (Not the other one)
ps. biology ain't a strong point.
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:41:55 -0800
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Peter Coxon wrote:
> >~Tim (not-Tim, or the inverse of Tim)
> Huh?
> Tim (not the other one) (this could get real confusing :-) )

If you've ever taken a logic class you will remember (or learn) that ~ in
front of a variable means "the opposite of" so if A was true, then ~A is
false. So the idea was that "~Tim" means "the opposite of Tim" or
"The
inverse of Tim" or "the other Tim". Thus signifiying that I'm me and not
you. :)

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: Todd Leask <taleask@***.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply -Reply
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:13:43 -0700
On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, Peter Coxon wrote:

> Great Point except they don't in a specific sence relate to the original
> message, I was talking about reflex reactions, you go on to talk about
> replcing the neurons/wires and silicon/cerebellum, of course combing the two
> and it get quite a kewl post, full 3 wired refs would require a load of stuff
> in the spine as well as the cerebellum. note have a look at the MBW systems
> diagram it is at the top of the spine and has nothing to do with the
> cerebellum.

The spinal cord controls gross movements (i.e. reflexes) however, the
cerbellum ( I think, but definitle the brain) refines all movements, so
the brain would have to be wired for any smooth movement, especially MBW


>
> Tim (Not the other one)
> ps. biology ain't a strong point.
>

Todd, who majors and a is a pseudograd student in biology

"You take something of yourself and give it free of charge. You take a
part of yourself and do so because you believe you are connected to
everything else. You become aware of yourself as a part of everything. You
suffer momentarily so that someone else will not have to."

Unknown, Winnebago, Before 1945
Message no. 11
From: Brian Johnson <john0375@****.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric -Reply
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:54:46 -0600
> >hmmm, one: electricity is about 1/10 the speed of light, at best (good
> >conduction)
>
> But the speed of the wave front of the signal passing through a conductor was
> much higher, I thought? Or is that what you are refering to?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Wave speed is 1/10 light speed, that
would be the speed of electricity.

you also mention that reworking the long nerves in the legs would help out.

the calculation i sent (light at 1x10-8 sec) is for a three meter distance,
so travel time is 2x10-8 sec forwards and back.) replacing this compared
to nerve fiber (at say, 1/1000th the speed of light would be 2x10-4 sec.)
so the compatative change (say 1/10 sec to decide on action), would be
significantly less that one percent.

.1002 sec for nerve fiber.
.10000002 for light fiber.
.1000002 for electric transmission.

These numbers neglect and conversion time for light of electricity.
which, could be significant.

Alternatively, one could use magnetics to transmit at the speed of light
just as easily, and it might convert faster to electricity/nerve at the
ends.

Improving the nerve fiber is nearly pointless, from a speed point of view.

Of course, you could decide that SR had a logarithmic reaction speed, so
a change of .0001 sec would be a change of +2 reaction...

On a related note:

Someone chimed in with "MBW is shown attached to the neck, not in the head."

That would be, for instance, the (rather large) system that puts the
body (spinal cord)
into the receptive seizure state, not the control system, which would be
in the head.

further, since Bioware seems to lag behind cyber in capabilities, the
cerebral booster-2 increases reaction by one (right?) so It is possible
to fiddle with the brain (as CB does), and previous versions (Cyber)
worked only on the movement nerves, rather than both (thinking and
movement). This made the Reflexes system possible at the time,
while it did not increase Intelligence. It (also implies that it)
is far easier to incease (Brain->reaction) than it is to increase
thought overasll (since CB-6 does not exist, and Wired-3 is +6 to reaction).
Message no. 12
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:18:41 -0500
>he calculation i sent (light at 1x10-8 sec) is for a three meter distance, so travel
>time is 2x10-8 sec forwards and back.) replacing this compared to nerve fiber
>(at say, 1/1000th the speed of light would be 2x10-4 sec.) so the compatative
>change (say 1/10 sec to decide on action), would be significantly less that one
>percent.
>
>.1002 sec for nerve fiber.
>.10000002 for light fiber.
>.1000002 for electric transmission.

I think nerves are actually slower than that, but not by so much as to invalidate
your point. Maybe someone whos taken neuroanatomy more recently (Lady
Jester?) could verify what the speed of a nerver impulse is in m/s.

I would say that, if you have rewired the brain so that some actions can be
decieded more rapidly (especially for Wired-3, lets say), then it does become
significant. I suspect the actually travel time to your lower legs in more than a
millisecond, and if reflex time is tripled or better then it can start to matter, at least
a little.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 13
From: Myrddin <aloeber@***.RHEIN-ZEITUNG.DE>
Subject: Re: Nerve impulse speed vs. electric
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:49:35 +0100
> Maybe someone whos taken neuroanatomy
> more recently (Lady Jester?) could verify what the speed of a nerver
> impulse is in m/s.
I don't have neuroanatomy but my biology book says that the speed of
a nerv impulse can be as fast as 120m/sec (432 km/h).
That's 0.025 secs for 3 meters.

Myrddin a.k.a. Andreas Loeber
email: aloeber@***.rhein-zeitung.de
homepage:http://homes.rhein-zeitung.de/~dloeber

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