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Message no. 1
From: Paul Wynter <kazeroth@**********.COM>
Subject: New ammo
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:59:54 -0700
What do you guys think of the following?...

--- Phospher Slugs ---
1/2 balistic armor or double impact (like a hollow point).
+1 staging (10M becomes 10S) + 8L internal burning per turn for 8 =
turns.
Nasty, huh? Imagine the light show...>8} ...streaks of light and then =
a flare...maybe blinding lowlight and IR vision for a moment like a tiny =
flash-grenade (or several...(and maybe screams of agony fading after a =
few turns...)

--- Toxin-Fill Bullets ---
Basically a hollow point rd. with the 'hollow' filled and sealed =
with the toxin of your choice. Does normal hollow-point damage and the =
effects of the toxin on top of it. A small addition of DMSO in the toxin =
mix would ensure entry into the blood stream.
(A bit of insurance that the guy wont get away...)
Message no. 2
From: Quentin Milton <taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:14:46 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> --- Toxin-Fill Bullets ---
> Basically a hollow point rd. with the 'hollow' filled and sealed
> with the toxin of your choice. Does normal hollow-point damage
> and the effects of the toxin on top of it. A small addition of
> DMSO in the toxin mix would ensure entry into the blood stream.
> (A bit of insurance that the guy wont get away...)

I've heard of this being done today for assassinations, using hollow
points whose tips are sealed with wax. The usual toxin is a small
amount of mercury. This ensures that even if the wound isn't fatal,
the victim will die within half a week of mercury poisoning. And the
best part is, you can't get blamed for it, because it's near
impossible to prove any sort of connection between getting shot and
dying from mercury poisoning, since it *can* be absorbed through
skin contact. >:)

Pantherr

Pantherr

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Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:29 +0100
Paul Wynter said on 16:59/30 Jun 98,...

> --- Phospher Slugs ---
> 1/2 balistic armor or double impact (like a hollow point).

There are no hollowpoints in canon SR; this rule applies to
flechette, not HP rounds.

> +1 staging (10M becomes 10S)

That's +1 Damage. +1 Staging would turn 10M2 into 10M3.

> + 8L internal burning per turn for 8 turns.
> Nasty, huh? Imagine the light show...>8} ...streaks of light
> and then a flare...maybe blinding lowlight and IR vision for a
> moment like a tiny flash-grenade (or several...(and maybe
> screams of agony fading after a few turns...)

Don't forget there's a white smoke trail leading back to the
shooter...

> --- Toxin-Fill Bullets ---
> Basically a hollow point rd. with the 'hollow' filled and sealed
> with the toxin of your choice. Does normal hollow-point damage
> and the effects of the toxin on top of it. A small addition of
> DMSO in the toxin mix would ensure entry into the blood
> stream.
> (A bit of insurance that the guy wont get away...)

Like in Jaws, you mean? Does anyone know if this actually works?
My impression is that the stuff used to seal the toxin into the
round (candle wax, in Jaws) will melt due to the air resistance
heating it up, and everything might just drain out of the bullet.

--
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Could you ever be alone?
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Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 07:56:08 -0500
On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:37:29 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>Paul Wynter said on 16:59/30 Jun 98,...
<SNIP>
>> --- Toxin-Fill Bullets ---
>> Basically a hollow point rd. with the 'hollow' filled and sealed
>> with the toxin of your choice. Does normal hollow-point damage
>> and the effects of the toxin on top of it. A small addition of
>> DMSO in the toxin mix would ensure entry into the blood
>> stream.
>> (A bit of insurance that the guy wont get away...)

>Like in Jaws, you mean? Does anyone know if this actually works?
>My impression is that the stuff used to seal the toxin into the
>round (candle wax, in Jaws) will melt due to the air resistance
>heating it up, and everything might just drain out of the bullet.
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl -
<SNIP Sig>

That may be the point (the wax melting) ... after the wax melts, it
becomes like a flying bucket ... :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 5
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:13:19 -0400
> I've heard of this being done today for assassinations, using hollow
> points whose tips are sealed with wax. The usual toxin is a small
> amount of mercury. This ensures that even if the wound isn't fatal,
> the victim will die within half a week of mercury poisoning. And the
> best part is, you can't get blamed for it, because it's near
> impossible to prove any sort of connection between getting shot and
> dying from mercury poisoning, since it *can* be absorbed through
> skin contact. >:)
>
Actually the mercury poisoning is only a side effect.
The real value of putting mercury in the slug is the damage it does.
When the bullet is fired the mercury is forced against the back of its
chamber (not compressed, liquids don't do that). When the bullet strikes
the ball of mercury is hurled forward, rupturing the tip of the bullet
and piercing deeper into the body. The spreading lead bullet deals blunt
trauma and the mercury stabs deeper in. Kinda like a discarding sabot
round really, of course it is all useless on an armored target.
Message no. 6
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:27:02 -0400
> >> --- Toxin-Fill Bullets ---
> >> Basically a hollow point rd. with the 'hollow' filled and
> sealed
> >> with the toxin of your choice. Does normal hollow-point damage
> >> and the effects of the toxin on top of it. A small addition of
> >> DMSO in the toxin mix would ensure entry into the blood
> >> stream.
> >> (A bit of insurance that the guy wont get away...)
>
> >Like in Jaws, you mean? Does anyone know if this actually works?
> >My impression is that the stuff used to seal the toxin into the
> >round (candle wax, in Jaws) will melt due to the air resistance
> >heating it up, and everything might just drain out of the bullet.
>
I have always seen a metal cap put in the bullet or the
lead itself pushed over the top. However even if wax was used AND the
wax melted it shouldn't be a problem as the inertia of the bullet will
keep the mercury in there, until it hits the target. NOTE: This will
only work on rifle and pistol bullets which maintain a relatively normal
flight path. The 7.62 soviet, 5.56 soviet and 5.56 NATO rounds all
"tumble". This would throw the mercury free from the bullet. This most
likely causes far more damage than the mercury would anyway so it's a
moot point of sorts to try to cram mercury into your assault rifle
bullets.

Also drilling out a assault rifle round would be a pretty bad
idea anyway since they are very small and with all that powder behind
them the bullet might just shatter in the barrel when you fired it.

Just don't try this with your assault rifle rounds.
Message no. 7
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:18:33 -0600
Bryan Covington Wrote:


> Actually the mercury poisoning is only a side effect.
>The real value of putting mercury in the slug is the damage it does.
>When the bullet is fired the mercury is forced against the back of its
>chamber (not compressed, liquids don't do that). When the bullet strikes
>the ball of mercury is hurled forward, rupturing the tip of the bullet
>and piercing deeper into the body. The spreading lead bullet deals blunt
>trauma and the mercury stabs deeper in. Kinda like a discarding sabot
>round really, of course it is all useless on an armored target.

Yeah, we're talking literal /splats/ on stiff armor.

Piatro
Message no. 8
From: ArcLight <arclight@**************.COM>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:58:55 +0200
bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

< snip >

> I have always seen a metal cap put in the bullet or the
> lead itself pushed over the top. However even if wax was used AND the
> wax melted it shouldn't be a problem as the inertia of the bullet will
> keep the mercury in there, until it hits the target. NOTE: This will
> only work on rifle and pistol bullets which maintain a relatively normal
> flight path. The 7.62 soviet, 5.56 soviet and 5.56 NATO rounds all
> "tumble".

5.54 for soviet AK74 and clones : )

> This would throw the mercury free from the bullet. This most
> likely causes far more damage than the mercury would anyway so it's a
> moot point of sorts to try to cram mercury into your assault rifle
> bullets.
>
> Also drilling out a assault rifle round would be a pretty bad
> idea anyway since they are very small and with all that powder behind
> them the bullet might just shatter in the barrel when you fired it.

No need for drilling holes :

just get .223 hunting ammo; it should be available as hollowpoint

> Just don't try this with your assault rifle rounds.

--
ArcLight
ICQ#14322211
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
When in doubt, empty your magazine
Message no. 9
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:24:16 -0400
> > keep the mercury in there, until it hits the target. NOTE: This will
> > only work on rifle and pistol bullets which maintain a relatively
> normal
> > flight path. The 7.62 soviet, 5.56 soviet and 5.56 NATO rounds all
> > "tumble".
>
> 5.54 for soviet AK74 and clones : )
>
> > Also drilling out a assault rifle round would be a pretty
> bad
> > idea anyway since they are very small and with all that powder
> behind
> > them the bullet might just shatter in the barrel when you fired it.
>
> No need for drilling holes :
>
> just get .223 hunting ammo; it should be available as hollowpoint
>
>
I knew someone was gonna poke a hole in that post sooner
or later.
I stand corrected.
Message no. 10
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:27:29 -0500
At 12:37 PM 7/1/98 +0100, Gurth wrote:
>Paul Wynter said on 16:59/30 Jun 98,...
>Like in Jaws, you mean? Does anyone know if this actually works?
>My impression is that the stuff used to seal the toxin into the
>round (candle wax, in Jaws) will melt due to the air resistance
>heating it up, and everything might just drain out of the bullet.
>
>--
When I was a teenager, my friends and I would take .22 long rifle shells
and pull the slug out, tamp a small piece of paper over the powder and fill
the rest of the space up with paraffin (sp?) wax. Then we would load the
the new wax cartridges into our pistols and go out and shoot the shit out
of each other in mock combat games (this was before the days of paintball).
The wax slugs were accurate up to around 30 yards and they stung like hell
when you got hit. Of course these were fairly low velocity rounds fired at
close range but I would say that paraffin wax holds up pretty well to
friction caused by air resistance.

BlueMule
Who is very much amazed that he lived through some of the idiotic things he
did in his youth.
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: New ammo
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:23:39 -0400
> When I was a teenager, my friends and I would take .22 long rifle
> shells
> and pull the slug out, tamp a small piece of paper over the powder and
> fill
> the rest of the space up with paraffin (sp?) wax. Then we would load
> the
> the new wax cartridges into our pistols and go out and shoot the shit
> out
> of each other in mock combat games (this was before the days of
> paintball).
> The wax slugs were accurate up to around 30 yards and they stung like
> hell
> when you got hit. Of course these were fairly low velocity rounds
> fired at
> close range but I would say that paraffin wax holds up pretty well to
> friction caused by air resistance.
>
> BlueMule
> Who is very much amazed that he lived through some of the idiotic
> things he
> did in his youth.
>
Glad you lived long enough to impart this insane idea on
us. Lucky no one called the cops about the firefight.
Message no. 12
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: new ammo
Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 17:17:26 +1100
I think it says somewhere in some sourcebook that you can't make
armour-piercing, explosive ammo because of the way both work. Explosive ammo
is designed to shatter, it is the shrapnel that does the damage, not the
small explosive charge. Armour piercing ammo, on the other hand, is designed
to keep its shape instead of flattening on impact like normal bullets tend
to do. It would be pretty hard to design something as small as a bullet head
that is strong enough to keep its shape, but brittle enough to break apart
upon detonation. Never mind trying to develop an explosive head that
detonates just after impact instead of on impact, and that armour piercing
bullets would likely pass straight through the target, exploding safely out
the other side and away from the poor gunshot victim. Unfortunately they are
mutually exclusive.



-----Original Message-----
From: red <redmtl@**********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, November 11, 2000 10:41 AM
Subject: new ammo


what you people say to adding new ammo to the game. To be more pecific,
APEX......(ammour peircing exploding).



add 2 to the damage number, one dagme level higher. it is less accurate
with a range. it is allso sensative to heat. if a mage cast fireball and you
get hit, APEX will go up in flames. IT is also not ussable in snipre riles
or holdout pistols.



any though would be helpfull, and and
spelling or grammar remarks will be punished.





IZZY, the only.





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Message no. 13
From: red redmtl@**********.com
Subject: new ammo
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 15:40:52 -0800 (PST)
--0-971899228-973899652=:10450
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


what you people say to adding new ammo to the game. To be more pecific, APEX......(ammour
peircing exploding).



add 2 to the damage number, one dagme level higher. it is less accurate with a range. it
is allso sensative to heat. if a mage cast fireball and you get hit, APEX will go up in
flames. IT is also not ussable in snipre riles or holdout pistols.



any though would be helpfull, and and spelling or
grammar remarks will be punished.





IZZY, the only.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one Wallet.
--0-971899228-973899652=:10450
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<P>what you people say to adding new ammo to the game. To be more pecific,
APEX......(ammour peircing exploding).</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>add 2 to the damage number, one dagme level higher. &nbsp;it is less accurate
with a range. it is allso sensative to heat. if a mage cast fireball and you get hit, APEX
will go up in flames. IT is also not ussable in snipre riles or holdout pistols.
</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
any though would be helpfull, and and spelling or grammar remarks will be
punished.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
IZZY, the only.</P><p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You
Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="http://shopping.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Shopping</a> -
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All with one <a
href="http://wallet.yahoo.com">Wallet</a>;.
--0-971899228-973899652=:10450--
Message no. 14
From: Matthew Bond mgb@*****.swinternet.co.uk
Subject: new ammo
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 01:03:14 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: red
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 11:40 PM
Subject: new ammo


what you people say to adding new ammo to the game. To be more pecific,
APEX......(ammour peircing exploding).
--------------
The usual abbeviation for such ammo is HEAP. High Explosive Armour
Piercing (less often APHE Armour Piercing, High Explosive)
--------------

add 2 to the damage number, one dagme level higher. it is less accurate
with a range. it is allso sensative to heat. if a mage cast fireball and
you get hit, APEX will go up in flames.
--------------
It should be no more sensitive to heat than any other type of
ammunition.

Most modern explosives used in such rounds rely on impact detonation,
and have to be travelling at 100m/s + to explode. You can safely pound
them flat with a hammer, drop them tens of feet, set fire to them and
they still won't explode. Fire them out of a gun and they will.

Why would they become less accurate at range? This is a function of
muzzle velocity and spin from the rifling in the barrel, rather than
whether the bullet explodes or not...

-----------------
IT is also not ussable in snipre riles or holdout pistols.
-----------------

Why not? As long as the impact velocity is over 100m/s it should be
useable, as long as the weapon calibre is sufficient for the round to
hold explosives.

And a sniper rifle is often just a well made rifle with good scopes. If
a normal rifle will fire the round, a sniper rifle chambered for the
same cartridge will also fire it.
-----------------
any though would be helpfull, and and spelling or grammar remarks will
be punished.
--------------
Yes, poor language skills deserve to be punished...

Matt
Message no. 15
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: new ammo
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:00:50 +0100
According to Simon and Fiona, on Tue, 11 Jan 2000 the word on the street was...

More shareware testing?

> I think it says somewhere in some sourcebook that you can't make
> armour-piercing, explosive ammo because of the way both work. Explosive ammo
> is designed to shatter, it is the shrapnel that does the damage, not the
> small explosive charge. Armour piercing ammo, on the other hand, is designed
> to keep its shape instead of flattening on impact like normal bullets tend
> to do. It would be pretty hard to design something as small as a bullet head
> that is strong enough to keep its shape, but brittle enough to break apart
> upon detonation. Never mind trying to develop an explosive head that
> detonates just after impact instead of on impact, and that armour piercing
> bullets would likely pass straight through the target, exploding safely out
> the other side and away from the poor gunshot victim. Unfortunately they are
> mutually exclusive.

For larger calibers (tank guns etc.), this kind of ammo has been around
for a long time under the name APHE (Armor Piercing High Explosive). These
have the explosive charge in the base of an armor-piercing projectile, with
a detonator in the base as well. When the round hits something, a slight
delay element causes the charge to detonate after the round has gone
through the obstruction.

As for the penetrator, current NATO-standard 5.56 mm ammo has a steel tip
that turns even ball rounds into semi-AP rounds which has caused plenty of
problems for soldiers IRL when shooting people instead of lightly-armored
vehicles -- the bullets go straight through the targets instead of dropping
them. IMHO, the two could be combined given good enough fusing tech. It's
probably impractical for rifle or pistol caliber weapons, but certainly SR's
heavy machineguns and assault cannons should be able to use AP explosive
rounds.

For game balance reasons, though, it may be better to keep the two
completely separated...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And now, the weather.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: new ammo
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:16:16 +0100
According to red, on Sat, 11 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> what you people say to adding new ammo to the game. To be more pecific,
> APEX......(ammour peircing exploding).
>
> add 2 to the damage number, one dagme level higher. it is less accurate
> with a range. it is allso sensative to heat. if a mage cast fireball and
> you get hit, APEX will go up in flames. IT is also not ussable in snipre
> riles or holdout pistols.

Way too powerful, IMO... +2 Power Level and +1 Damage Level turns a single
assault rifle round into a 10S attack, and resisted with half armor too
makes it a better weapon than a shotgun because you've now got full-auto
capability and much better ranges as well. At best, I would give this kind
of ammunition +1 Power Level and 1/2 Ballistic armor, plus a _very_ high
Availability and Street Index -- in the order of 20/20 days and 5,
respectively, if not more.

> any though would be helpfull, and and
> spelling or grammar remarks will be punished.

OK, how about this then:

> ----------------------------------------
> Content-Type: text/html; name="unnamed"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Description:
> ----------------------------------------

Please turn the HTML encoding on your messages off, as not all mailers
agree with it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And now, the weather.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: red redmtl@**********.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:51:45 -0800 (PST)
--0-532670688-974055105=:12700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

the heat sensativity was apperently not fully understood. a barrel tends to get hot,
correct?.............burst fire every 3 combat turns is as often all APEX can be fired and
not be a danger to the firer......allso, it is high tech, That is why it has a cost of
50¥ per 10......the street index is undecided, but high...............add to
that................i am sorry for my laguage..............I am a Skikto..............i
get pissed, and it bites.............


---------------------------------
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--0-532670688-974055105=:12700
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

the heat sensativity was apperently not fully understood. a barrel tends to get hot,
correct?.............burst fire every 3 combat turns is as often all APEX can be fired and
not be a danger to the firer......allso, it is high tech, That is why it has a cost of
50¥ per 10......the street index is undecided, but high...............add to
that................i am sorry for my laguage..............I am a Skikto..............i
get pissed, and it bites.............<p><br><hr size=1><b>Do You
Yahoo!?</b><br>
<a href="http://calendar.yahoo.com/">Yahoo! Calendar</a> -
Get organized for the holidays!
--0-532670688-974055105=:12700--
Message no. 18
From: Andrew Gryphon webmaster@*********.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:33:03 -0600
on 11/12/00 12:51 PM, red at redmtl@**********.com e-scribed:

> i am sorry for my laguage..............I am a Skikto

I have no serious problem with bad grammar, etc. It gives me a headache, but
complaining about it makes me seem snooty.

That said, when I can't understand because of it, it gets tough. Red, my
heart goes out to you, but I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Could you either define "skikto" or else type it phonetically so we can
figure out what you're trying to tell us?

My three guesses are:
1) Shinto, although I don't see what religion would have to do with it.
2) Schizo, which might make sense if you're using the clinical definition of
schizophrenia (although I don't recommend gaming if you are diagnosed with
psychological disorders. It's like a pyromaniac working at a fireworks
factory. Discuss it with your counselor & get his opinion. Appropriate
chemicals can do a world of good for restoring imbalances.)
3) This is some non-English word that I don't recognize.

I sound really condescending. It's not intended.

--
Andrew Gryphon
http://www.Wyrmworks.com
Taking Role-Playing to the next level
Message no. 19
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 12:31:56 +0100
According to red, on Sun, 12 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...


> the heat sensativity was apperently not fully understood. a barrel tends
> to get hot, correct?

That's the primary reason for hand guards on longarms, and for quick-change
barrels on machine guns, yes.

> .............burst fire every 3 combat turns is as often all APEX can be
> fired and not be a danger to the firer......

The main problem I have with rules like this is that they sound too
artificial. Normal explosive rounds in SR don't suffer from hot barrels at
all, so why should AP variants of them have that limitation? The idea is
good, but IMHO you need to try and bring it in line with existing types of
ammunition a bit better before they're really usable.

> allso, it is high tech, That is why it has a cost of 50¥ per
> 10......the street index is undecided, but high.

That's the same cost as normal explosive rounds; APDS rounds cost 70 nuyen
per 10, while EX explosives are 100 per 10...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: new ammo
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:52:34 -0600
:but certainly SR's
:heavy machineguns and assault cannons should be able to use AP explosive
:rounds.
:For game balance reasons, though, it may be better to keep the two
:completely separated...

Isn't Assault Cannon ammo already described as stable, armor pirecing, and
explosive? Sounds like its ALREADY modified in this way, which expalins the
18D damage code and the fact that it works pretty well against vehicles.
That also migh explain why it does NOT have a blast effect that damages
folks standing near the target; it blows up INSIDE the target. It would
probably still hurt yah if it blew a hole in a wall you were hiding behind,
though...

-Sebastian
--
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: new ammo
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:21:15 +0100
According to Sebastian Wiers, on Mon, 13 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Isn't Assault Cannon ammo already described as stable, armor pirecing, and
> explosive? Sounds like its ALREADY modified in this way, which expalins the
> 18D damage code and the fact that it works pretty well against vehicles.

The main problem I see with that explanation is that, to get "natural" AP
effects, you need a high muzzle velocity; from the assault cannon's ranges
it seems that's the case, but if you try to do some calculations on the
feasibility of these weapons you quickly find out that you need a lot more
than 20 kilos of weapon to take the recoil down to manageable levels...

--
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-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: Neon Samuria NeonSamuria@***********.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:26:33 -0800
Aright every one check this out. Ammo like this can be created. It is
not that hard if you know a little about modern ballistics.(Please excuse
the spelling. and these comments are not ment to be insulting in any way.)
Currently the standard weapon of the untied States Armed forces is
the M-16A2 assault rifle. It fires a 5.56 ball round. This round is
known as a tumbler round as well. When it penetrates the body Armour/body
of the target the tip bends slightly changing the course of the bullet and
making it spin end over end.
The tanks the U.S. Army and Marine corps use is the M1A1 Abrams. Two
rounds available to this tanks 155mm cannon are known as the APFSDS round,
and the HESH round. The APFSDS round stands for Armour piercing, fin
stabilized, discarding sabot. What it does is pretty similar to the 5.56
ball round. when it leaves the barrel of the cannon it drops some pieces
off from around the actual projectile making a thin rod similar to a
sewing needle heading straight towards the target. It is manly used on
heavily armored vehicles like another tank. The reason is when it hits,
it does the same thing as the M-16 round. The tip bends and it ricochets
all around the inside off the tank killing the crew. The HESH round when
it hits it pushes a detonator on the end of the round into some explosive
on the front of the round. making the round explodes on the out side of
the tank. there fore making chunks of the tanks inside kill the crew.
Now you may ask why did this person give is all of the information
when you are talking about Exploding Armour Piercing rounds? Well check
this out. What about a round that has it's point bend like an APFSDS
round to just go through the outer Armour. and when the point bends it
pushes a detonator into some explosive in the rear of the round making it
explode. The problem with it would be that it would only work on armored
targets (acting like an AP round vs Armour and doing EX damage) and would
do less damage against unarmored targets. (maybe -2 power/-1 damage level
<i.e. 6s turns to a 4m>) It would be very experimental so would have a
very high availability code. If any one would like a picture I can draw
one and attach it to an e-mail. Just ask me personally not over this
forum.
The library has many books on ballistics and military technology.
Check it out some time and thank you for yours.

The one and only
Roadford Landleaf
--may the flees of a thousand camels infest your testicle hairs.--


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com
Message no. 23
From: Neon Samuria NeonSamuria@***********.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:30:33 -0800
Aright every one check this out. Ammo like this can be created. It is
not that hard if you know a little about modern ballistics.(Please excuse
the spelling. and these comments are not ment to be insulting in any way.)
Currently the standard weapon of the untied States Armed forces is
the M-16A2 assault rifle. It fires a 5.56 ball round. This round is
known as a tumbler round as well. When it penetrates the body Armour/body
of the target the tip bends slightly changing the course of the bullet and
making it spin end over end.
The tanks the U.S. Army and Marine corps use is the M1A1 Abrams. Two
rounds available to this tanks 155mm cannon are known as the APFSDS round,
and the HESH round. The APFSDS round stands for Armour piercing, fin
stabilized, discarding sabot. What it does is pretty similar to the 5.56
ball round. when it leaves the barrel of the cannon it drops some pieces
off from around the actual projectile making a thin rod similar to a
sewing needle heading straight towards the target. It is manly used on
heavily armored vehicles like another tank. The reason is when it hits,
it does the same thing as the M-16 round. The tip bends and it ricochets
all around the inside off the tank killing the crew. The HESH round when
it hits it pushes a detonator on the end of the round into some explosive
on the front of the round. making the round explodes on the out side of
the tank. there fore making chunks of the tanks inside kill the crew.
Now you may ask why did this person give is all of the information
when you are talking about Exploding Armour Piercing rounds? Well check
this out. What about a round that has it's point bend like an APFSDS
round to just go through the outer Armour. and when the point bends it
pushes a detonator into some explosive in the rear of the round making it
explode. The problem with it would be that it would only work on armored
targets (acting like an AP round vs Armour and doing EX damage) and would
do less damage against unarmored targets. (maybe -2 power/-1 damage level
<i.e. 6s turns to a 4m>) It would be very experimental so would have a
very high availability code. If any one would like a picture I can draw
one and attach it to an e-mail. Just ask me personally not over this
forum.
The library has many books on ballistics and military technology.
Check it out some time and thank you for yours.

The one and only
Roadford Landleaf
--may the flees of a thousand camels infest your testicle hairs.--


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is College Club the largest and fastest growing college student site?
Find out for yourself at http://www.collegeclub.com
Message no. 24
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:28:18 -0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Neon Samuria [mailto:NeonSamuria@***********.com]
> Sent: 23 November 2000 07:27
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: New Ammo
>
>
> Aright every one check this out. Ammo like this can be
> created. It is
> not that hard if you know a little about modern
> ballistics.(Please excuse
> the spelling. and these comments are not ment to be insulting
> in any way.)
> Currently the standard weapon of the untied States Armed
> forces is
> the M-16A2 assault rifle. It fires a 5.56 ball round. This round is
> known as a tumbler round as well. When it penetrates the
> body Armour/body
> of the target the tip bends slightly changing the course of
> the bullet and
> making it spin end over end.

I think either you or your source are mistaken... *all* bullets tumble
after the hit something, it has nothing to do with tips bending. What it
does depend on is velocity, bullet mass and bullet shape. Also, bullets
only tumble 180 degrees before returning to stable flight (backwards...)
until they hit another obstruction.

> The tanks the U.S. Army and Marine corps use is the M1A1
> Abrams. Two
> rounds available to this tanks 155mm cannon are known as the
> APFSDS round,
> and the HESH round. The APFSDS round stands for Armour piercing, fin
> stabilized, discarding sabot. What it does is pretty similar
> to the 5.56
> ball round. when it leaves the barrel of the cannon it drops
> some pieces
> off from around the actual projectile making a thin rod similar to a
> sewing needle heading straight towards the target. It is
> manly used on
> heavily armored vehicles like another tank. The reason is
> when it hits,
> it does the same thing as the M-16 round. The tip bends and
> it ricochets
> all around the inside off the tank killing the crew.

No, the tip doesn't bend. It relies on extremely high kinetic energy to
penetrate armour. This generates a lot of heat and a shockwave, and
showers of molten metal spray around the interior of the target

> The
> HESH round when
> it hits it pushes a detonator on the end of the round into
> some explosive
> on the front of the round. making the round explodes on the
> out side of
> the tank. there fore making chunks of the tanks inside kill the crew.

This is basically correct.

Matt
Message no. 25
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:24:59 +0100
According to Neon Samuria, on Thu, 23 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> Currently the standard weapon of the untied States Armed forces is
> the M-16A2 assault rifle. It fires a 5.56 ball round. This round is
> known as a tumbler round as well. When it penetrates the body Armour/body
> of the target the tip bends slightly changing the course of the bullet and
> making it spin end over end.

It only flips over once, for the simple reason that most of its mass is at
the back of the bullet (obviously -- the tip is the thin part so it'll have
less mass than the back).

> The tanks the U.S. Army and Marine corps use is the M1A1 Abrams. Two
> rounds available to this tanks 155mm cannon

120 mm on the M1A1 and M1A2; the M1 and M1 IP had a 105 mm gun. 155 mm guns
are only found on artillery pieces :)

> are known as the APFSDS round, and the HESH round.

HEAT, actually, for 120 mm (to be totally correct, HEAT-FS-T). There are
HESH rounds for 105 mm, but in the US they're known as HEP (High Explosive
Plastic).

> The APFSDS round stands for Armour piercing, fin
> stabilized, discarding sabot. What it does is pretty similar to the 5.56
> ball round. when it leaves the barrel of the cannon it drops some pieces
> off from around the actual projectile making a thin rod similar to a
> sewing needle heading straight towards the target. It is manly used on
> heavily armored vehicles like another tank. The reason is when it hits,
> it does the same thing as the M-16 round. The tip bends and it ricochets
> all around the inside off the tank killing the crew.

APFSDS doesn't bend over as much as it simply punches through the armor,
like driving a nail through a plank; once on the other side it bursts out
and bounces around the inside as you say. When used against lightly-armored
vehicles, though, it'll simply go in one side and out the other with
a lot less damage to the vehicle than you might expect -- fire one at an
unarmored vehicle and just about all you'll do is punch two neat holes into
it.

> The HESH round when it hits it pushes a detonator on the end of the
> round into some explosive on the front of the round. making the round
> explodes on the out side of the tank. there fore making chunks of the
> tanks inside kill the crew.

Yep. The only problem is that modern armor materials tend to defeat it
fairly easily because they consist of layers of different materials which
breaks up the shockwave. But against homogenous materials, it works rather
well.

> Now you may ask why did this person give is all of the information
> when you are talking about Exploding Armour Piercing rounds? Well check
> this out. What about a round that has it's point bend like an APFSDS
> round to just go through the outer Armour. and when the point bends it
> pushes a detonator into some explosive in the rear of the round making it
> explode.

Similar ammo already exists, but it's normally of the full caliber variety
rather than the discarding sabot type. The reason here is simply that you
can't pack much explosives into the back of an AP(FS)DS projectile, so the
explosive effect is too small to be worth bothering with for these rounds.

> The problem with it would be that it would only work on armored
> targets (acting like an AP round vs Armour and doing EX damage) and would
> do less damage against unarmored targets. (maybe -2 power/-1 damage level
> <i.e. 6s turns to a 4m>) It would be very experimental so would have a
> very high availability code.

It's unfortunate that APDS rounds in SR don't do reduced damage against
unarmored targets, because that fact makes your suggested reduced damage
come off as a method of game balance :) I don't like the idea of having it
behave like APDS + EX explosive -- normal explosive ammo effects seem enough
to me -- but other than that, this is as good a solution as any that's been
posted, IMO.

> The library has many books on ballistics and military technology.
> Check it out some time and thank you for yours.

A good primer is "Ammunition for the Land Battle," published by Brassey,
IIRC (sorry, no ISBN or author available at this time :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:48:39 +1100
>
> I think either you or your source are mistaken... *all* bullets tumble
> after the hit something, it has nothing to do with tips bending. What it
> does depend on is velocity, bullet mass and bullet shape. Also, bullets
> only tumble 180 degrees before returning to stable flight (backwards...)
> until they hit another obstruction.
>

>From memory here, but the Australian army went from 7.62 back to 5.56
because the 7.62 didn't tumble. It just powered through people. Whereas
the 5.56 tumbled and did more damage, and didn't come out the otherside of
the victim.

Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----If a motorist cuts you off, just turn the other cheek...
-----Nothing gets the message across like a good mooning.
Message no. 27
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 22:18:38 +1100
>A good primer is "Ammunition for the Land Battle," published by Brassey,
>IIRC (sorry, no ISBN or author available at this time :)

Ammunition For The Land Battle
P R Courtney Green
80358071
Brassey

Oh, I think I saw a price tag of $970+

Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----High explosives and school don't mix
-----Bart's blackboard
Message no. 28
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:22:12 -0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Collins [mailto:paulcollins@*******.com]
> Sent: 23 November 2000 10:49
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: New Ammo
>
>
> >
> > I think either you or your source are mistaken... *all*
> bullets tumble
> > after the hit something, it has nothing to do with tips
> bending. What it
> > does depend on is velocity, bullet mass and bullet shape.
> Also, bullets
> > only tumble 180 degrees before returning to stable flight
> (backwards...)
> > until they hit another obstruction.
> >
>
> From memory here, but the Australian army went from 7.62 back to 5.56
> because the 7.62 didn't tumble. It just powered through
> people. Whereas
> the 5.56 tumbled and did more damage, and didn't come out the
> other side of
> the victim.
>
> Annachie

Oh, the 7,62 tumbles alright, it's just that it hasn't tumbled enough to
be noticeable in the 18" or so of person it travelled through.

As I said the tumble effect depends on bullet velocity (if it takes x
time to tumble the bullet 180 deg, then the faster bullet will tumble
proportionally less for any given length of trajectory), bullet mass (a
heavier bullet will tumble more slowly than a light bullet, hence less
tumble in a given length of trajectory), and bullet shape (a long thin
bullet has a more devastating tumble cross section, as after rotating 90
deg it is now short and wide. A spherical bullet will exhibit no
measurable tumble, even though it's spin will have changed)

So a fast, heavy bullet like the 7.62 will tumble less in a person than
a lighter, less powerful round such as the 5.56.

That said, the modern 5.56's are higher velocity than those of the 60's
and 70's, so exhibit less tumble. The problem with the tumbling rounds
was that although the wounds were severe and less survivable, the
stopping power was low. So it could often take 2-3 more hits to put your
opponent down, whereas the 7.62 would stop your opponent in his tracks,
even though the wound was cleaner.

The higher velocity 5.56 rounds now have sufficient KE to put the
opponent down, but have the advantages of smaller size and lighter
weight than the 7.62, allowing more ammo to be carried and greater ammo
capacity in magazines.

Matt
Message no. 29
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 11:41:37 +0100
According to Matt Bond, on Thu, 23 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> No, the tip doesn't bend. It relies on extremely high kinetic energy to
> penetrate armour. This generates a lot of heat and a shockwave, and
> showers of molten metal spray around the interior of the target

You appear to be confusing APDS rounds with the myth that HEAT rounds
create a spray of molten metal. Common mistake :)

AP rounds, of all types (basic AP, APDS, APFSDS, etc.) all work by simply
pushing the round (AKA penetrator) through the armor by a combination of
its mass, velocity and frontal area. Several things can happen, but usually
when it gets through, it will bounce around inside the vehicle, together
with bits of armor that may have broken off. This latter is called "spall"
and can also happen when the round does not penetrate the armor completely.

HEAT rounds explode on impact, and use the explosion to forge a copper cone
into a penetrator that works by the same techniques as AP shot. It is _not_
a liquid, though due to the extreme velocity it's traveling at (roughly
8,000 m/s), it does _behave_ a bit like one when forced to do so (like
when it hits a plate of armor). As such, there are no molten metal particles
flying around, only that part of the copper cone that makes it through the
armor -- the rest coats the hole it punched.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:09:07 +0100
According to Paul Collins, on Thu, 23 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> From memory here, but the Australian army went from 7.62 back to 5.56
> because the 7.62 didn't tumble. It just powered through people. Whereas
> the 5.56 tumbled and did more damage, and didn't come out the otherside of
> the victim.

Depends on who you ask. In the US military after Somalia, and apparently
also in the Australian one since the East Timor deployment, 5.56 mm has
fallen from grace somewhat due to its _lack_ of anti-personnel
capabilities, which are to blame mainly on the steel tip of NATO-standard
ball rounds.

However, I don't think ShadowRN is the place for a debate about the
relative merits and disadvantages of RL calibers. Feel free to mail me
off-list about it, though :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 19:13:10 +0100
According to Paul Collins, on Thu, 23 Nov 2000 the word on the street was...

> >A good primer is "Ammunition for the Land Battle," published by
Brassey,
> >IIRC (sorry, no ISBN or author available at this time :)
>
> Ammunition For The Land Battle
> P R Courtney Green
> 80358071
> Brassey

Thank you :) (Where did you get this, BTW?)

> Oh, I think I saw a price tag of $970+

No idea; all I know is that my local library has plenty of the books in
this series. I would be surprised if they cost that much, though -- it's
not as if they're the size of the Jane's reference works.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Bartitis -- Kei-erg!
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:06:53 +0000
In article <02ff01c0553f$22c4d740$304336cb@****>, Paul Collins
<paulcollins@*******.com> writes
>Ammunition For The Land Battle
> P R Courtney Green
>80358071
>Brassey
>
>Oh, I think I saw a price tag of $970+

My copy was just £15, so maybe $20-$25?


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 33
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 09:56:14 +1100
> <paulcollins@*******.com> writes
> >Ammunition For The Land Battle
> > P R Courtney Green
> >80358071
> >Brassey
> >
> >Oh, I think I saw a price tag of $970+
>
> My copy was just £15, so maybe $20-$25?
>
>
> --
> Paul J. Adam

Feeling real silly for not looking properly at the time. It was Rupee's I
think. (Well, the shop turned out to be in India!)


Annachie

------------------------------------------------

-----For a single man in possetion of a good fortune must be in want of a
wife
-----Elizabeth Bennet
Message no. 34
From: Paul J. Adam ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: New Ammo
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 22:19:33 +0000
In article <D7DC5099EC50D31193180090273A71442B8450@********>, Matt Bond
<MBOND@******.demon.co.uk> writes
>I think either you or your source are mistaken... *all* bullets tumble
>after the hit something,

Not quite - roundnose bullets don't, it's only spitzer bullets that
tumble because their centre of pressure in tissue is ahead of the centre
of mass and so the bullet is unstable.


--
Paul J. Adam

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