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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:16:23 -0400
Something's been bugging me for a while, and after a late night's readin I
have formulated a hypothesis of sorts.

Nuclear Energy is one of the following, if not more ...

1 - Related to magic.
2 - The origin of magic
3 - Extremely, coincidentally similar to magic

Here's where I get this notion.

PoaD: Dunkelzhan's Secrets, Page 27, Column 3, Paragraph 3.

" To Gaeatronics' Seattle labratories, I leave 250 million nuyen for the
purpose of research into Dr. Dawn Crowfeather's treatise, "On the
Relationship between Mana and Nuclear Energy.""

In the interest of claiming this 250 million nuyen, I offer the following
...

A - Both Nuclear Energy and Magical Energy can alter genetic material.
Nuclear mutations are well known ... cancers, etc. Magical "mutations"
include UGE/Goblinization, Magism, etc.

B - Both can create new matter/forms of matter.
Nuclear Fission can seperate atoms into components, and reform molecules.
Magical energy can form acids, flame, etc.

C - Both can create areas of pollution.
Nuclear waste is a well known problem. Areas of CFS have been so magically
polluted as to make them dangerous for humans. Also the entire notion of
"Background Count" is common between the two forces.

D - Both Forces have a "half-life."
Nuclear forces slowly degrade in time. Magicla spells leave a detectable
"mark" in astral space that slowlu degrades after the fact.

E - Both forces can create extreme levels of power, bordering on the
dangerous.

These similarities lead me to believe that there IS a strong corrolary
between the two forces. IMO they may well be aspects of the same force!

Other SR specific nuclear/magic ties.

A - Nuclear weapons became unreliable after the return of magic.

B - The Cermak explosion was contained by a magical barrier.

The above facts/theories lead me to this conclusion.

Magic and Nuclear reaction are two sides of the same coin.

Let's postulate that there is a "ultimate force" in the SR universe.
Let's call it ... Primal.

The world flows from cycles of high-low mana.
The world has also flowed from levels of low radiation to high radiation.
This flow has also been reflected in technology, in levels of low magic,
technology has advanced more, including the development of nuclear
energies.
Nuclear energies and Magical energies seem to be somewhat
incompatible/opposed.

Suppose that NE, and ME are both aspects of Primal.
Primal flows with the cycles of the world.
This flow is reflected in the flow of Primal's two fundamental forces,
Magic and Nuclear.
As one becomes dominant the other seems to ebb.

Perhaps both are simply different ends of the same wave?

How is it that both forces seem to still exist in the Sixth World?
As has been noted before, the Sixth World is quite different from the
others recorded before.
Things like Horrors are cropping up where they should not, or earlier than
they should.

Magic and technology (the product of the Nuclear aspect of Primal) are
becoming closer entwined.
Humanity is learning to unite these two aspects of Primal.

What happens when the two are completely united?
Universal Harmony?
Universal Destruction?

I'll leave that discussion to you gentle readers.

So ... whaddya think? ;-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Heads I tell the truth and Tails I lie ..."
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:28:13 -0400
>A - Nuclear weapons became unreliable after the return of magic.

This is my only complaint....I was under the impression that the nuclear
weapons had become unreliable due to specific ACTS of magic (e.g, Find your
Own truth) rather than the general rise of magic. I like your statements,
except for you placing Nuclear and Magical in opposition.
>
>B - The Cermak explosion was contained by a magical barrier.

....And also killed the mama bugs, which shouldn't be killed by a physical
device. I see your point, but ti seems Magic and Nuclear are equally
powerful, and can be used in opposition, but I don't see one growing weaker
as the other grows stronger.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:27:51 +1000
>
> In the interest of claiming this 250 million nuyen, I offer the following
> ...
>
<snip> not bad *grin*

I came up with a solution to one of those 'quests' myself about Christmas
time last year.... The perpetual motion machine using magic and technology;

Get a spell lock of 'heat metal' or 'ignite' and activate it and drop it
into a boiler system, then close the system and you've got a steam turbine
with an unlimited source of energy.

I asked FASAMike about whether it fulfilled the conditions, but he was a
bit rushed for time (big surprise) and couldn't answer.

The turbine should keep on going until it rusts through, which as far as
I'm concerned fulfills the requirements of a perpetual motion machine.

Now, the interesting thing is that this solution is so easy, and unless
there's a catch not in the rules, the human race now has an
effectively unlimited source of energy.

Marty
Message no. 4
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 05:47:06 -0700
> Get a spell lock of 'heat metal' or 'ignite' and activate it and drop it into a
boiler system, then close the system and you've got a steam turbine with an unlimited
source of energy.

> Now, the interesting thing is that this solution is so easy, and unless
> there's a catch not in the rules, the human race now has an
> effectively unlimited source of energy.

Ahhh, if only. Unfortunately, spell locks only work with sustainable
spells, and Ignite is permanent (*and* the spell description is
confusing)... hmmm... there is Alter Temperature from Awakenings,
however.

I warrant, however, that there's a secret cabal (perhaps The Unseen
Hands, from Threats - FASA tried out that new invisible typeface on
them) that exists solely to destroy such things. Or perhaps a group
like the Anti-Prometheans, who promote the sentience of Hellhounds,
and feel that man was not meant to control fire, ever.

Y'gotta love it when magic breaks those darned Laws of Thermodynamics
and
the check bounces at Reality Bank....


-Matt
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:04:33 +0100
MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 13:27/11 May 97...

> I came up with a solution to one of those 'quests' myself about Christmas
> time last year.... The perpetual motion machine using magic and technology;
>
> Get a spell lock of 'heat metal' or 'ignite' and activate it and drop it
> into a boiler system, then close the system and you've got a steam turbine
> with an unlimited source of energy.

Sounds like a plausible way of doing things, with the one drawback that it
can be traced right to the magician who bonded the spell lock. Terrorists
with magical back-up would have it easy here.

Another way I can think of, though it'll probably be more useful as a lab
experiment than for a power plant, is to use magic to heat or cool the
connection between two different metal wires (I don't know the English
name for this :/ ) so a current starts to flow through them.

> The turbine should keep on going until it rusts through, which as far as
> I'm concerned fulfills the requirements of a perpetual motion machine.

Using materials that don't (or almost don't) rust, like stainless steel or
titanium, it would keep going for even longer.

> Now, the interesting thing is that this solution is so easy, and unless
> there's a catch not in the rules, the human race now has an
> effectively unlimited source of energy.

Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
is why they didn't think of it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It wouldn't work. My face is too expressive.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 6
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:12:30 +0100
|
|MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 13:27/11 May 97...
|
|> I came up with a solution to one of those 'quests' myself about Christmas
|> time last year.... The perpetual motion machine using magic and technology;
|>
|> Get a spell lock of 'heat metal' or 'ignite' and activate it and drop it
|> into a boiler system, then close the system and you've got a steam turbine
|> with an unlimited source of energy.
|
|Sounds like a plausible way of doing things, with the one drawback that it
|can be traced right to the magician who bonded the spell lock. Terrorists
|with magical back-up would have it easy here.

OK then... Quicken it. Problem solved.

|Another way I can think of, though it'll probably be more useful as a lab
|experiment than for a power plant, is to use magic to heat or cool the
|connection between two different metal wires (I don't know the English
|name for this :/ ) so a current starts to flow through them.

I think we call it a thermocouple, and it's not two wires, it's two special
alloys fastened together in some special way.....

|> The turbine should keep on going until it rusts through, which as far as
|> I'm concerned fulfills the requirements of a perpetual motion machine.
|
|Using materials that don't (or almost don't) rust, like stainless steel or
|titanium, it would keep going for even longer.

But even then, bearings wear out, and metal fatigue sets in...

|> Now, the interesting thing is that this solution is so easy, and unless
|> there's a catch not in the rules, the human race now has an
|> effectively unlimited source of energy.
|
|Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
|is why they didn't think of it :)

Who's to say it'd be efficient enough to power anything more than a small
house? High force spells are notoriously difficult to learn and cast.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:23:45 +0200
On Sun, 11 May 1997 12:04:33 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>use magic to heat or cool the
>connection between two different metal wires (I don't know the English
>name for this :/ ) so a current starts to flow through them.

Peltier elements :-)

Should work in english, too.


--
Arno
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Message no. 8
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:24:35 +0100
In message <25258.199705112212@*****.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes
>|MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 13:27/11 May 97...
>|Using materials that don't (or almost don't) rust, like stainless steel or
>|titanium, it would keep going for even longer.
>
>But even then, bearings wear out, and metal fatigue sets in...

So change the turbine. The steam generator isn't affected, you just vent
it elsewhere while you swap the turbine.

>|Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
>|is why they didn't think of it :)
>
>Who's to say it'd be efficient enough to power anything more than a small
>house? High force spells are notoriously difficult to learn and cast.

Depends how magic works. If you're casting "maintain a certain metal
honeycomb at 1000 degrees Celsius", then you have a massively efficient
power plant.

If you want to start calculating what force equals what amount of
physical work can be drawn from astral space to keep the matrix (the hot
part you're passing water over to flash to steam) hot, then that's a
totally different ball of wax and there's nothing in the books to guide.

I agree, though. If spells won't do it, how about Fire Elementals? Magic
offers the potential to make conventional power generation obsolete. No
need to burn coal, oil or neutrons: just cast a spell and you have your
steam generator.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <SwiftOne@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:25:28 -0400
>|Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
>|is why they didn't think of it :)
>
>Who's to say it'd be efficient enough to power anything more than a small
>house? High force spells are notoriously difficult to learn and cast.

Not to mention that as soon as you start incorporating it into the
technology, there could be unknown effects.

And, just as a game balance thing, wandering spirits can always just decide
to roast the whole thing.

-=SwiftOne=-
(Who is not in favor of SR perpetual motion)
Message no. 10
From: Joey Guhlin <setzer@**.NET>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:32:53 -0500
>I came up with a solution to one of those 'quests' myself about Christmas
>time last year.... The perpetual motion machine using magic and technology;

Hate to interupt this thread, don't stop it though, it's very
interesting<Evil GM grin> But It is a "perpetual motion machine without the
aid of magic..." But don't stop this thread, the ides plant so many plots
into my mind(then I dump 90% of them because they are too weird)
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/ Ultra Zone - Music - FREE SPEECH - Role-Playing - /
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Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:50:37 EDT
On Sat, 10 May 1997 11:16:23 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>Something's been bugging me for a while, and after a late night's readin
I
>have formulated a hypothesis of sorts.
>
>Nuclear Energy is one of the following, if not more ...
>
>1 - Related to magic.
>2 - The origin of magic

Wouldn't this necessitate the first?


>3 - Extremely, coincidentally similar to magic

The two aren't truly similar, as one consists of extremely small
particles charged with extremely high amounts of energy

I don't think that the two are so much similar/related forces as they are
forces of equal or nearly equal magnitude. Second, while a normal
explosion wouldn't have destroyed spirits, the Cermak blast was not a
normal explosion. It was a small nuclear device planted by human beings
intent on the destruction of the Invae super-hive in Chicago. A nuclear
explosion would have a power rating somewhere on the order of 3000, IMO,
and the Cermak blast was partially contained and reflected back toward
itself by a powerful magical barrier. The resulting background count
results from the unbelievably toxic area created as a result. (Hiroshima,
Nagasaki, and Alamogordo are mentioned as having a Background Count of 5
in the Grimoire, and they are _old_ blast sites, no longer dangerously
radioactive, I think). But that's my opinion.


>Here's where I get this notion.
>
>PoaD: Dunkelzhan's Secrets, Page 27, Column 3, Paragraph 3.
>
>" To Gaeatronics' Seattle labratories, I leave 250 million nuyen for the
>purpose of research into Dr. Dawn Crowfeather's treatise, "On the
>Relationship between Mana and Nuclear Energy.""
>
>In the interest of claiming this 250 million nuyen, I offer the
>following...
>
>A - Both Nuclear Energy and Magical Energy can alter genetic material.
> Nuclear mutations are well known ... cancers, etc. Magical
"mutations"
>include UGE/Goblinization, Magism, etc.

So can lots of things, including various chemicals and retroviruses. And,
I don't know that I'd call UGE/Goblinisation and Magism 'mutations.'
Rather, they are the (mostly) physical manifestations of genetic
conditions that _could_ have resulted from 'evolutionary mutation' during
the Second Age of Magic in order to allow greater survivability for their
bearers. In short, they are more likely to be considered the result of
evolution in a magic-rich environment than anything else. A magically
induced mutation would be like a permanent Transform spell.


>B - Both can create new matter/forms of matter.
> Nuclear Fission can seperate atoms into components, and reform
>molecules.
>Magical energy can form acids, flame, etc.

Agreed.


>C - Both can create areas of pollution.
> Nuclear waste is a well known problem. Areas of CFS have been
>so magically
>polluted as to make them dangerous for humans. Also the entire notion
of
>"Background Count" is common between the two forces.

But the 'Background Count' results from different reasons. Magical
Background Count results from toxicity of surrounding auras, but may also
result from the release of excessive amounts of magical energy. Nuclear
Background Count results from an excess of radiation released from highly
radioactive materials.


>D - Both Forces have a "half-life."
> Nuclear forces slowly degrade in time. Magicla spells leave a
>detectable "mark" in astral space that slowlu degrades after the fact.

Again, I don't know that this is a definitive argument, as many things
'degrade' in time, including toxins, medicines, and pathological
organisms.


>E - Both forces can create extreme levels of power, bordering on the
>dangerous.

So can conventional means, when used in large enough amounts.


>These similarities lead me to believe that there IS a strong corrolary
>between the two forces. IMO they may well be aspects of the same force!
>
>Other SR specific nuclear/magic ties.
>
>A - Nuclear weapons became unreliable after the return of magic.

Could you provide a page ref for this? It sounds familiar, but I'd like
to check it out.


>B - The Cermak explosion was contained by a magical barrier.

Only partially. If it had been contained, there would not have been any
destruction aside from the blast site. Bug City gave me the impression
that the explosion killed some people nearby, but not within the blast
site itself. And the radiation would _all_ be contained within a small,
very focused area. While the greatest amount of radiation is contained
within a concentrated area, it is not all contained therein.


>The above facts/theories lead me to this conclusion.
>
>Magic and Nuclear reaction are two sides of the same coin.
>
>Let's postulate that there is a "ultimate force" in the SR universe.
>Let's call it ... Primal.
>
>The world flows from cycles of high-low mana.
>The world has also flowed from levels of low radiation to high
radiation.

Not really, the same amount of energy, and therefore radiation, has been
more or less present throughout the entire earth's history.


>This flow has also been reflected in technology, in levels of low magic,
>technology has advanced more, including the development of nuclear
energies.

We don't know that. In fact, we have _no_idea_ as to what happened during
the Second and Third Ages.


>Nuclear energies and Magical energies seem to be somewhat
>incompatible/opposed.

Again, we don't know that. It could be the extreme toxicity resulting
from radiation poisoning cannot be removed excepting big-time mojo and
natural processes. We don't know, for example, how to lower background
count, though that could be done simply by removing the toxic influence.


>Suppose that NE, and ME are both aspects of Primal.
>Primal flows with the cycles of the world.
>This flow is reflected in the flow of Primal's two fundamental forces,
>Magic and Nuclear.
>As one becomes dominant the other seems to ebb.

If that were true, then the level of highest nuclear radiation would have
been between 500 and 1500 years before the time of Christ. If that were
true, the level of cancer then would have been higher than it is now.


>Perhaps both are simply different ends of the same wave?
>
>How is it that both forces seem to still exist in the Sixth World?

Perhaps the two forces are not Magic and Nuclear Energy so much as they
are Magic and Technology. They are _nearly_ incompatible forces, at the
moment anyway. The difference, however, is that while Magic rises and
falls like an milleniums-long tide, the level of Technology rises over
time, barring Apocalypse-like events.


>As has been noted before, the Sixth World is quite different from the
>others recorded before.




>Things like Horrors are cropping up where they should not, or earlier
than
>they should.

We know that the Invae are arriving early due to the intervention of
Insect Shamans. The Horrors are showing up by exploiting the mana spikes
and areas with scarily high Background Count. We don't know if such
things existed during the Fourth World. We can assume that the Insect
Shamans did not. It may be that the mana spikes are the result of
whatever extended the end of the Fourth World. Ultimately, we just don't
know.


>Magic and technology (the product of the Nuclear aspect of Primal) are
>becoming closer entwined.
>Humanity is learning to unite these two aspects of Primal.

Perhaps. So far, however, I've seen little evidence that _humanity_ has
succeeded in any actual merging between the two forces.


>What happens when the two are completely united?

You wind up with magical items that can be used by mundaners. Not unlike
what the Big D sponsored in two separate suppositions (is that the word?)
in his will. And you wind up with a lot of well-armed mundaners when the
Horrors finally show up (hopefully, long after we're dead).


>Universal Harmony?
>Universal Destruction?

Could be either. Could be neither. There's now way of knowing for sure.


--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: "ADAM B. TRELOAR" <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:03:14 +1000
Something's been bugging me for a while, and after a late night's reading I
have formulated a hypothesis of sorts.

Nuclear Energy is one of the following, if not more ...

1 - Related to magic.
2 - The origin of magic
3 - Extremely, coincidentally similar to magic

Here's where I get this notion.

PoaD: Dunkelzhan's Secrets, Page 27, Column 3, Paragraph 3.

" To Gaeatronics' Seattle labratories, I leave 250 million nuyen for the
purpose of research into Dr. Dawn Crowfeather's treatise, "On the
Relationship between Mana and Nuclear Energy.""

In the interest of claiming this 250 million nuyen, I offer the
following...

<snip>

You mean that weapon focus I've been carrying around is actually
radioactive????

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Can anyone say mutants? Maybe THAT's how trolls, orks,
elves (immortal elves?) etc came about... :)

Guardian

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indestinguishable from technology.
So there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:20:20 EDT
OK... I accidently deleted the message in this thread that actually
mentioned what I wanted to comment on, so I'll just recap it here:

[snip: Magic Perpetual Motion makes conventional power obsolete...and
etc..]

Boy wouldn't this make an interesting run...
Power Industry vs. Mage with a ground breaking discovery. You can pick
which side the runners enter on. In defense of practically free and
unlimited power, or in defense of the electrical power industries entire
market.

~Tim
Message no. 14
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 04:23:05 +0000
> >|Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
> >|is why they didn't think of it :)
> >
> >Who's to say it'd be efficient enough to power anything more than a small
> >house? High force spells are notoriously difficult to learn and cast.
>
> Depends how magic works. If you're casting "maintain a certain metal
> honeycomb at 1000 degrees Celsius", then you have a massively efficient
> power plant.
>
> If you want to start calculating what force equals what amount of
> physical work can be drawn from astral space to keep the matrix (the hot
> part you're passing water over to flash to steam) hot, then that's a
> totally different ball of wax and there's nothing in the books to guide.
>

If I may offer my two cents here.. the best way to use magic to
generate power might not be to generate it *DIRECTLY*, but rather use
it for the parts of power generation which science cannot deal with
effectively. For instance, in Russia they've got a
magnetohydrodynamic power plant. I'm not talking water - I'm talking
plasma at 3000K. Not easy to work with, and the hotter the better -
the expected maximum yield is 90% of the heat energy input, which is
more than twice as effective as steam turbines.

Magic offers solutions to the problems faced by MHD plants, and
other interesting problems in, for instance, (theoretical) fusion
reactors.

I have my doubts about how it can handle nuclear waste, though..
somehow it shouldn't be as easy as 'cast turn uranium to iron'.

(BTW, my info's a bit old. It also stated they expected to have a
500MW plant ready in the early 80's.).

BTW, if you want to use existing spells to heat boilers to create
steam for steam turbines to generate electricity.. why not create
the spell 'make electric current' instead?
(Spark, for instance... it's sustainable, too. BTW, how do you handle
sustained targeted damaging manipulations? Can't recall reading
about'em except for on anchoring.).
"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 15
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:05:30 -0400
> physical manifestations of genetic conditions that _could_ have resulted
from 'evolutionary mutation' > during
> the Second Age of Magic in order to allow greater survivability for their
> bearers. In short, they are more likely to be considered the result of
> evolution in a magic-rich environment than anything else.

That's not a mutation?
IIRC from Zoology many moons ago, isn't a mutation a genetic deviance from
the norm, brought about by environmental, or other conditions?

> A magically induced mutation would be like a permanent Transform spell.

I don't think so, because that spell doesn't necessarily alter DNA.
A mutation by definition is a genetic abberation, and CAN be passed on to
offspring, assuming that the mutant is not sterile.
A Transform spell would not do that.

> But the 'Background Count' results from different reasons. Magical
> Background Count results from toxicity of surrounding auras, but may also
> result from the release of excessive amounts of magical energy. Nuclear
> Background Count results from an excess of radiation released from highly
> radioactive materials.

That very toxicity you mention furthers my belief that nuclear energies CAN
and DO have an effect on magical energies.
Nuclear forces CAN create BOTH types of background count.
And as flip sides of the same coin, they would have different ways of
creating and expressing such BG counts.
Heat and Cold are both thermodynamic effects, but they have quite different
physical properties. IIRC

> Could you provide a page ref for this? It sounds familiar, but I'd like
> to check it out.

Sorry, no books near the computer.
Check out the "And so it came to pass ..." history section in the main SR
book.
The part about the SAIM folks launching a nuke that never went off.
Also, in the Secrets of Power trilogy there is mention of nukes being
uneffective.
I think there's been other references in the "fluuf" fiction that fleshes
out the SR world, but I can't cite any other specific references.

> Not really, the same amount of energy, and therefore radiation, has been
> more or less present throughout the entire earth's history.

You sure about this?
I'm not a big fan of Big Bang theory, but doesn't Sagan claim that the
earth was originally formed from a highly radioactive gas cloud?
Also, as the atmosphere on earth "thickens" aren't we less bombarded by
cosmic rays?
And as for constant energy in the system, doesn't Entropy seem to deny
that?

> >This flow has also been reflected in technology, in levels of low magic,
> >technology has advanced more, including the development of nuclear
> energies.
>
> We don't know that. In fact, we have _no_idea_ as to what happened during
> the Second and Third Ages.

Exactly!

> >Suppose that NE, and ME are both aspects of Primal.
> >Primal flows with the cycles of the world.
> >This flow is reflected in the flow of Primal's two fundamental forces,
> >Magic and Nuclear.
> >As one becomes dominant the other seems to ebb.
>
> If that were true, then the level of highest nuclear radiation would have
> been between 500 and 1500 years before the time of Christ. If that were
> true, the level of cancer then would have been higher than it is now.

IIRC not ALL varieties of radiation cause cancers in the same
severity/frequency.
Also, the world was much less populated then, and man mught not have been
present in the more highly radioactive areas.
And weren't life expectancies shorter then as well?
Just a possibility ...

> Perhaps the two forces are not Magic and Nuclear Energy so much as they
> are Magic and Technology. They are _nearly_ incompatible forces, at the
> moment anyway. The difference, however, is that while Magic rises and
> falls like an milleniums-long tide, the level of Technology rises over
> time, barring Apocalypse-like events.

I like this concept too.
Very similar to what I was thinking.
Very valid.

> We know that the Invae are arriving early due to the intervention of
> Insect Shamans.

How do we know this? There were Insect Shamans before weren't there?

> Ultimately, we just don't know.

Sure, but it's fun to speculate! :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Keep 'em shiny!"
Message no. 16
From: Tuvyah@***.COM
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 03:19:24 -0400
>>I came up with a solution to one of those 'quests' myself about Christmas
>time last year.... The perpetual motion machine using magic and technology;

Why bother casting "Heat Metal"? Why not just design a new spell, "Propel
Electrons"? That gives you your power directly as electricity. 100%
efficiency.

--Smilin' Ted
"...who knows why he's smilin'."
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:43:53 +0100
Spike said on 23:12/11 May 97...

> I think we call it a thermocouple, and it's not two wires, it's two special
> alloys fastened together in some special way.....

Same thing, isn't it? You can make the alloys into wires, as I recall
from a physics experiment I had to do once.

> |Using materials that don't (or almost don't) rust, like stainless steel or
> |titanium, it would keep going for even longer.
>
> But even then, bearings wear out, and metal fatigue sets in...

It could take longer though. Naturally, any machine needs maintenance else
it breaks down eventually. Hey, since we're powering this thing by magic,
maybe use some levitation on all the bearings and stuff to keep them
virtually frictionless?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... just ... for ... FUN ... !
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:34:34 GMT
Paul J. Adam writes

> Spike writes
> >|MARTIN E. GOTTHARD said on 13:27/11 May 97...
> >|Using materials that don't (or almost don't) rust, like stainless steel or
> >|titanium, it would keep going for even longer.
> >
> >But even then, bearings wear out, and metal fatigue sets in...
>
> So change the turbine. The steam generator isn't affected, you just vent
> it elsewhere while you swap the turbine.
>
> >|Probably the fact that nobody at FASA seems to know anything about science
> >|is why they didn't think of it :)
> >
> >Who's to say it'd be efficient enough to power anything more than a small
> >house? High force spells are notoriously difficult to learn and cast.
>
> Depends how magic works. If you're casting "maintain a certain metal
> honeycomb at 1000 degrees Celsius", then you have a massively efficient
> power plant.
Very true.
Unfortunately i have some problems with this thread in general.

>
> If you want to start calculating what force equals what amount of
> physical work can be drawn from astral space to keep the matrix (the hot
> part you're passing water over to flash to steam) hot, then that's a
> totally different ball of wax and there's nothing in the books to guide.
>
Yes this is the problem i see. You can as you suggest make it very
efficient but power output is limited by spell force and SR notes
magicians as being expensive, and permantent spells require Karma.
Even if your spell produces Kilowatts (ie electric fire levels) its
nothing to the power industry, nothing at all.

> I agree, though. If spells won't do it, how about Fire Elementals? Magic
> offers the potential to make conventional power generation obsolete. No
> need to burn coal, oil or neutrons: just cast a spell and you have your
> steam generator.
Yes. Could be supurb for replacing diesel generators for out of the
way places, own home power supply for the ultra rich or the magician
himself but for competing with that new 2000MW power plant the
electricity company just commisioned you would do well to generate as
much power as they lose in the powerplants transformer (and those are
seriously efficient) even with a whole pack of elementals.

So yes you might manage 100% efficiency and yes a perpetual motion
machine is easy (use a cool spell to keep superconducting magnets
cool for the no contact bearings) but total power output is limited.
Sure Ghost dance level magic will create lots of power but its not
exactly practical.

Mark
Message no. 19
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:33:34 +0100
|It could take longer though. Naturally, any machine needs maintenance else
|it breaks down eventually. Hey, since we're powering this thing by magic,
|maybe use some levitation on all the bearings and stuff to keep them
|virtually frictionless?

Ahhhh, but if your using levitation, and you do it in a vacuum, then you
won't need bearings. (And you get rid of all friction and air resistance as
well...)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Shaun Sides <arch@****.ABTS.NET>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:44:03 -0500
Date: 11 May 97 Time: 23:05
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on th

TO: Steven A. Tinner

> ways of creating and expressing such BG counts. Heat and Cold are
> both thermodynamic effects, but they have quite different physical
> properties. IIRC

IIRC, there is actually only heat. The absense of heat is what we
refer to as cold.

a chaoidh teabadaich,

Shaun Sides
arch@****.net
http://www.abts.net/~arch

THE SIX PHASES OF A PROJECT
1. Enthusiasm
2. Disillusionment
3. Panic
4. Search for the guilty
5. Punishment of the innocent
6. Praise and honours for the non-participants
Message no. 21
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:51:37 +0000
On 12 May 97 at 8:44, Shaun Sides wrote:

> IIRC, there is actually only heat. The absense of heat is what we
> refer to as cold.

That is correct. You beat me too it. :)

--
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
# DREKHEAD - drekhead@***.net, drekhead@***.com - Tim Kerby #
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
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#@&%*===========================================================*%&@#
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
Message no. 22
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Clear Fishin' - (Hang on this is a long wild one!)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:17:44 EDT
On Sun, 11 May 1997 23:05:30 -0400 "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes:
>That's not a mutation?
>IIRC from Zoology many moons ago, isn't a mutation a genetic deviance
from
>the norm, brought about by environmental, or other conditions?

It is a mutation, but your wording implied a mutation caused by forced
interaction of the genetic coding with an outside energy source over a
short term. What I was talking about was the gradual 'mutating' caused by
a change in one's environment (ala evolution). While not a big fan of
Darwin myself, microevolution would have produced the metaraces (as they
are still the same species as normal humans), and it has been proven to
exist. I had simply not realized you were talking mutations, in general,
rather than those produced by the bursts of high energy produced in
nuclear reactions.

>I don't think so, because that spell doesn't necessarily alter DNA.
>A mutation by definition is a genetic abberation, and CAN be passed on
to
>offspring, assuming that the mutant is not sterile.
>A Transform spell would not do that.

As you said, not _necessarily_, though it could be inferred that it did
not, as the person's aura remains the same. . .




>That very toxicity you mention furthers my belief that nuclear energies
CAN
>and DO have an effect on magical energies.

Only as much as any toxic substance can create background count.


>Nuclear forces CAN create BOTH types of background count.

Where has it produced a background count caused by something other than
the pollution of an area? Maybe if you could point out a specific
instance, but I only know of the examples of Hiroshima, Alamogordo, etc
and the Cermak blast.


>And as flip sides of the same coin, they would have different ways of
>creating and expressing such BG counts.
>Heat and Cold are both thermodynamic effects, but they have quite
different
>physical properties. IIRC

But they're not the same. Heat and Cold are like Light and Dark, one is
the presence of energy, the other is the absence of that energy. Nuclear
energy, however, is not the absence of magical energy, if it were, it
would create sites like the foveae of Aztlan.


>Sorry, no books near the computer.
>Check out the "And so it came to pass ..." history section in the main
SR
>book.
>The part about the SAIM folks launching a nuke that never went off.
>Also, in the Secrets of Power trilogy there is mention of nukes being
>uneffective.
>I think there's been other references in the "fluuf" fiction that
fleshes
>out the SR world, but I can't cite any other specific references.

Okay, I'll just have to see about borrowing those.


>> Not really, the same amount of energy, and therefore radiation, has
been
>> more or less present throughout the entire earth's history.
>
>You sure about this?

Um, actually, no. But it made sense when I wrote it:)


>I'm not a big fan of Big Bang theory, but doesn't Sagan claim that the
>earth was originally formed from a highly radioactive gas cloud?

Would you believe I've never read anything by Sagan (to my knowledge).
I'm pretty sure I've not seen the above, not the radioactive portion
anyway. But, I should think in your proposition, that the amount of
radioactivity would be constantly lessening, rather than increasing and
decreasing.


>Also, as the atmosphere on earth "thickens" aren't we less bombarded by
>cosmic rays?

Presumably, but last I heard, the atmospere wasn't thickening, though the
CO2 content was rising, I think. Could be wrong on that though. I do know
that the Van Allen Belts are absorbing various particles (radioactive
ones, for instance) as the Earth passes through the universe.


>And as for constant energy in the system, doesn't Entropy seem to deny
that?

No, only that less and less of it is available for use. Remember the
conservation of energy? Like matter, Energy can neither be created or
destroyed. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics states that in every reaction,
some portion of the energy involved becomes transformed into an unusable
form (usually heat).

[...]

>IIRC not ALL varieties of radiation cause cancers in the same
>severity/frequency.

True, radio emissions don't cause the same kind of damage that alpha
particle radiation causes, and microwaves can cause severe damage on a
cellular level. But, the lower-frequency radiations also have lower
energy levels, right?


>Also, the world was much less populated then, and man mught not have
been
>present in the more highly radioactive areas.
>And weren't life expectancies shorter then as well?

Does that mean that life expectancies will be getting dramatically longer
(Methuselah-like)? But it's generally assumed that lifetime of a person
of the Biblical era was shorter due in part due to lesser technology with
respect to medicine.


>Just a possibility ...
>
>> Perhaps the two forces are not Magic and Nuclear Energy so much as
they
>> are Magic and Technology. They are _nearly_ incompatible forces, at
the
>> moment anyway. The difference, however, is that while Magic rises and
>> falls like an milleniums-long tide, the level of Technology rises over
>> time, barring Apocalypse-like events.
>
>I like this concept too.
>Very similar to what I was thinking.
>Very valid.

Thank you:)


>> We know that the Invae are arriving early due to the intervention of
>> Insect Shamans.
>
>How do we know this? There were Insect Shamans before weren't there?

Actually, I think one of the people experienced with ED said there
weren't, but I don't really know.


>> Ultimately, we just don't know.
>
>Sure, but it's fun to speculate! :-)

Hey, would the list be here if it wasn't?

--
-Canthros
And ye shall know the truth, and lobo1@****.com
the truth shall set you free. canthros1@***.com
--John 8:32, KJV
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

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