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Message no. 1
From: Stephane Lafrance <Stephane.Lafrance@***.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: New ideas...
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 16:59:38 EDT
It will probably sounds moron, but for an idea, I took the
Solar Temple sect recent problems and transported it in 2055
with an ex-member going on with a vendetta.

Stephan
Message no. 2
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: New Ideas
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 20:14:44 -0700
I'm back now (for those of you that care) and I've gone over some of the
logs, and let me say that you are all some very weird people...cyber
airbags?

In any case, I have some ideas for items that I want to bounce of you all.

1) Smart recoil systems. As I understand it, SR recoil systems just
vent gas in a certain direction, or use gyros to keep things even. What
if you installed a limited computer program that can be customized for a
weapon or weapon type, that would vent gas in specific directions to
maximize the recoil compensation? Seems logical to me.

2) Cranial vehicle remote control decks. Just a cyber version of the
normal ones.

3) Cybernetically controled systems. Why not be able to control your
locks or your stereo or whatever via your datajack? Not an original
idea, but currently not a part of SR.

4) Actually, I forgot what else I wanted to mention, so I'll have to add
those on later.

But until then, comments and questions?

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 12:28:49 +0100
>1) Smart recoil systems. As I understand it, SR recoil systems just
>vent gas in a certain direction, or use gyros to keep things even. What
>if you installed a limited computer program that can be customized for a
>weapon or weapon type, that would vent gas in specific directions to
>maximize the recoil compensation? Seems logical to me.

You'd have to have a very fast system to do that, I think. Not the
computers, as I think they'd be fast and small enough in 2055, but the
adjustable gas vents. The whole thing'd get complicated quickly, and I also
feel that the propellant residue could jam the whole thing beyond
recognition if you don't clean it _really_ well after each "shooting session."

>2) Cranial vehicle remote control decks. Just a cyber version of the
>normal ones.

Wasn't such a thing in NAGEE6?


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 4
From: Erik S Jameson <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 20:25:24 -0700
On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:

> >1) Smart recoil systems. As I understand it, SR recoil systems just
>
> You'd have to have a very fast system to do that, I think. Not the
> computers, as I think they'd be fast and small enough in 2055, but the
> adjustable gas vents. The whole thing'd get complicated quickly, and I also
> feel that the propellant residue could jam the whole thing beyond
> recognition if you don't clean it _really_ well after each "shooting
session."
>
Well, the smart gas vent would probably have to be customized for each
weapon type (non interchangable) and further customized by usage for each
individual weapon, so the computer could "learn" the users and the
weapons patterns. But what about the smart gyro system?

> >2) Cranial vehicle remote control decks. Just a cyber version of the
> >normal ones.
>
> Wasn't such a thing in NAGEE6?
>
The hell if I know. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen any of
the NAGEEs. I don't even know where to look for them. Any help?

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler

PS: I forgot to mention in the whole music/cyberpunk discussion that I
think Vangelis is fantastic for the game. I have to disagree with the
arguements that techno is too fast and too meaningless for a gaming
session however. Too fast? Try ambient (the Orb). No meaning? I'm
biased as I used to be a hardcore raver, but I think there is some
meaning in the music. But that's just me.
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 11:44:06 +0100
>Well, the smart gas vent would probably have to be customized for each
>weapon type (non interchangable) and further customized by usage for each
>individual weapon, so the computer could "learn" the users and the
>weapons patterns. But what about the smart gyro system?

Gyroscopes need time to get going, so you probably wouldn't be able to use a
computer to start up the gyroscopes when they're needed and cut them out
when they weapon isn't firing. Either they're on or they're off...thinking
this through now, you could maybe let the computer vary the gyroscopes'
speed when they need compensate heavy recoil...

[on cranial vehicle remote controls & NAGEEs]

>The hell if I know. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen any of
>the NAGEEs. I don't even know where to look for them. Any help?

Try ftp-ing to cerebus.acusd.edu, the directory (I think) is
/pub/Role-Playing/Shadowrun/NAGEE, in which you'll find directories for four
or five different formats from ASCII to PostScript.

>PS: I forgot to mention in the whole music/cyberpunk discussion that I
>think Vangelis is fantastic for the game. I have to disagree with the
>arguements that techno is too fast and too meaningless for a gaming
>session however. Too fast? Try ambient (the Orb). No meaning? I'm
>biased as I used to be a hardcore raver, but I think there is some
>meaning in the music. But that's just me.

If you ask me, there's no meaning whatsoever in rave. All I hear in it is a
buzzing sound that's supposed to be a drumbeat of about seven million bpm
and some bleeping noises that my good old ZX Spectrum also made...


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 6
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:40:25 +0000
Computer controlled gas vents?

one think SR has wrong is the MASSIVE recoil of weapons.
the weapon gets harder to hit the more you fire, but does more
damage.
Personally, i think it should be easier to hit, but less damage
per round as you can't aim properly.

At present, its perfectly possible to get an Autocad (computer
aided design) package and design a gun, then autolathe it. the
computer can design the gun from preset data on the cartridge
you choose, and the gun can be designed for optimum accuracy.

For automatic weapons, you put a motor driven cam onto the bolt.
Normally in autofire
the bullet goes off, the bolt goes back in recoil, shell
ejects, bolt moves forward, new round chambers, round fires.
this process is uncontrolled.
With the cam,
as the bolt slides back, it catches on a tooth on the cam, and
is released when the cam has rotated enough to disenguage the
tooth.

this means that a fast spinning cam allow fast autofire
slow the cam, slow your ROF
and you can control this perfectly by altering the cams speed of
rotation.
By controlling the ROF, you control the recoil.
If you choose a ROF that recoils equal to the forward motion of
the bolt on the return, the forces CANCEL
NO RECOIL.

(this system is used in the Bushman 9mm machine pistol. it can
fire at 1400 rpm maximum, OR at ANY rpm from 1400 to 1. its set
to normally use 450rpm, and this balances all the forces. it
doesn't recoil. you can empty the 30 rd mag and the MP just
buzzes in yor hand.
its being tested on other smg's )

CHOPPER

Whens the NAN cookbook due out then?
Message no. 7
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New ideas
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:43:23 +0000
remote control cybernetics?

I'm sure you could buy a infra red remote control for your
tv/stereo/hi-fi thats a interface controled plug instead of a
button pad.

Or use a vocally controlled system

CHOPPER

remember to set one channel as an alarm, so you can set off
warning buzzers/explosives etc if attacked at home
Message no. 8
From: Inquisitor <ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New ideas
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 17:52:00 GMT
I thought I read somewhere that radio devices used near eplosives rigged
for radio detonation can actually set them off by accident.
Message no. 9
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:04:40 -0500
>>>>> "James" == James W Thomas <cm5323@***.AC.UK> writes:

James> Personally, i think it should be easier to hit, but less damage per
James> round as you can't aim properly.

Historically incorrect. Compare the hit ratios vs. number of rounds fired
by US soldiers in WWII armed with semi-automatic M-1 Garand rifles with US
Marines in VietNam armed with fully automatic M-16 rifles. By about the 4th
round the recoil has pulled your aim well off the target, and anything
beyond that is wasted. Thus, 3-round bursts.

Full auto is good for suppressing an area, but that's something completely
different (and actually handled well by the stray shots rules).

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox |
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! |
Message no. 10
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New ideas
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:10:16 -0500
>>>>> "Inquisitor" == Inquisitor
<ESPD92MS@****.ANGLIA-POLYTECHNIC.AC.UK>
>>>>> writes:

Inquisitor> I thought I read somewhere that radio devices used near
Inquisitor> eplosives rigged for radio detonation can actually set them off
Inquisitor> by accident.

Yup. It usually won't happen unless you broadcast on the appropriate
frequency, but most trancievers create harmonics and sidebands which could
flux close enough, and....

Remember a recent incident where police (supposedly) found some grenades
wired to blow up? They told reporters not to broadcast from the vicinity.

So they use cellular phones instead.

Really bright.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | head.
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New ideas
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 12:14:38 +0100
>I thought I read somewhere that radio devices used near eplosives rigged
>for radio detonation can actually set them off by accident.

On military airfields, they're very careful of radars operating near the
aircrafts' weapons loads. If you switch on a radar system too close to
explosves, they might just blow up... OK, a radar is more powerful than your
average walkie-talkie, but still...


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 12:14:41 +0100
>Historically incorrect. Compare the hit ratios vs. number of rounds fired
>by US soldiers in WWII armed with semi-automatic M-1 Garand rifles with US
>Marines in VietNam armed with fully automatic M-16 rifles. By about the 4th
>round the recoil has pulled your aim well off the target, and anything
>beyond that is wasted. Thus, 3-round bursts.

3-round bursts were also introduced to prevent soldiers from hosing rounds
at targets that are too far away. With full-auto weapons, people have a
tendency to point the weapon at a very distant target and squeeze the
trigger until the target goes down. With burst-fire weapons you can't do
that because the weapon stops after three rounds.

>Full auto is good for suppressing an area, but that's something completely
>different (and actually handled well by the stray shots rules).

Vietnam-era tactics stress volume of fire over accuracy, so full-auto
weapons would be much more useful in that sort of situation that burst-fire
ones.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl
De elektronische B-weg...

GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L !3
E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+ u+@
h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 13
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:05:19 -0800
On Sun, 15 Jan 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Gyroscopes need time to get going, so you probably wouldn't be able to use a
> computer to start up the gyroscopes when they're needed and cut them out
> when they weapon isn't firing. Either they're on or they're off...thinking
> this through now, you could maybe let the computer vary the gyroscopes'
> speed when they need compensate heavy recoil...

The point of a gyroscope is conservation of angular momentum.
That means it requires significant torque to alter the rate of spin.
(All of Newton's equations apply with their angular equivalents).
If you could quickly alter the gyroscope's angular momentum, it
would do you no good as recoil compensation.

> Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/Adam/getchell.html
Message no. 14
From: Joel Ricker <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 09:03:25 -0500
> >>>>> "James" == James W Thomas <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
writes:
>
> James> Personally, i think it should be easier to hit, but less damage per
> James> round as you can't aim properly.
>
> [History Lesson Deleted]
>
> Full auto is good for suppressing an area, but that's something completely
> different (and actually handled well by the stray shots rules).

[Renegade dons former military uniform.] Full auto is good for
suppressing an area, but in a solid prone or fox hole position, it can
still be an accurate weapon. With the M-60, which fires only Full Auto, I
managed to cut the head off a target at about 100m. The recoil is not
too bad, braced in a foxhole position. I know, "how many times will I
dig a foxhole in Shadowrun?" but I figured you'ld like to know.

------------------------------------------------
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And is heard no more." - Macbeth, Act V Scene V
Renegade William Shakespeare
a018907t@*********.seflin.lib.fl.us
jricker@*******.fsu.edu
Message no. 15
From: "James W. Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:14:11 +0000
> > >>>>> "James" == James W Thomas
<cm5323@***.AC.UK> writes:
> >
> > James> Personally, i think it should be easier to hit, but less damage per
> > James> round as you can't aim properly.
> >
> > [History Lesson Deleted]
> >
> > Full auto is good for suppressing an area, but that's something completely
> > different (and actually handled well by the stray shots rules).
>
> [Renegade dons former military uniform.] Full auto is good for
> suppressing an area, but in a solid prone or fox hole position, it can
> still be an accurate weapon. With the M-60, which fires only Full Auto, I
> managed to cut the head off a target at about 100m. The recoil is not
> too bad, braced in a foxhole position. I know, "how many times will I
> dig a foxhole in Shadowrun?" but I figured you'ld like to know.

<CHOPPER>Thats easy.You drive one around!
just fix a firing port or pintle firing position onto the
car/truck bodywork and you've got an instant foxhole.

CHOPPER
Message no. 16
From: Joel Ricker <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:16:03 -0500
> > [Renegade dons former military uniform.] Full auto is good for
> > suppressing an area, but in a solid prone or fox hole position, it can
> > still be an accurate weapon. With the M-60, which fires only Full Auto, I
> > managed to cut the head off a target at about 100m. The recoil is not
> > too bad, braced in a foxhole position. I know, "how many times will I
> > dig a foxhole in Shadowrun?" but I figured you'ld like to know.
>
> <CHOPPER>Thats easy.You drive one around!
> just fix a firing port or pintle firing position onto the
> car/truck bodywork and you've got an instant foxhole.

Nice. But I don't thing my old Drill Sergeant would approve :)

Seriously though, now that you mention it, a reinforced van with gun
slits would work just as efficiently as a normal foxhole would. Of
course if you mounted the weapon right you wouldn't have any recoil
effects (of course the driver might notice the van tugging a little.

------------------------------------------------
"Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And is heard no more." - Macbeth, Act V Scene V
Renegade William Shakespeare
a018907t@*********.seflin.lib.fl.us
jricker@*******.fsu.edu
Message no. 17
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:42:21 -0500
On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Joel Ricker wrote:

> [Renegade dons former military uniform.] Full auto is good for
> suppressing an area, but in a solid prone or fox hole position, it can
> still be an accurate weapon. With the M-60, which fires only Full Auto, I
> managed to cut the head off a target at about 100m. The recoil is not
> too bad, braced in a foxhole position. I know, "how many times will I
> dig a foxhole in Shadowrun?" but I figured you'ld like to know.

Shadowrun does a fairly good job of taking this into account,
though. I mean, when you take your run-of-the-mill light machinegun,
between the stock (-1), the bipod (-2), and even a little gas venting (-1
or -2), you are suddenly pouring a lot of high velocity steel-jacketed
lead into a realtively small area. It's only after six rounds or so that
recoil even begins to affect the shot.

Oh, by the way, somebody (CHOPPER, I think) was miffed that the
Shadowrun autofire rules were an all or nothing proposition. I have
redone the autofire rules to allow for hitting with partial bursts. They
work amazingly well, and bring a fairly realistic portrayal of automatic
weapons fire into the game. If anyone's interested, I can either e-mail
them or post them.

Marc
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Ideas
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 14:01:03 +0100
>[Renegade dons former military uniform.] Full auto is good for
>suppressing an area, but in a solid prone or fox hole position, it can
>still be an accurate weapon. With the M-60, which fires only Full Auto, I
>managed to cut the head off a target at about 100m. The recoil is not
>too bad, braced in a foxhole position. I know, "how many times will I
>dig a foxhole in Shadowrun?" but I figured you'ld like to know.

But an M60 fired from a foxhole isn't a hand-held weapon. You rest it on the
bipod before you fire it, so you're only holding the rear end. The weapon's
mass drags its front end down while you're firing, reducing the tendency of
the weapon to jump upward (though the M60 is a straight-through layout, so
it won't kick up as much as, say, an RPK will). That's what FASA have done
with the bipod: it gives 2 points of recoil compensation.


Gurth@******.nl or Gurth@***.nl |GC2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3)
You can't play rock & roll on a diet|!au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U P? !L
of vegi-juice, cucumber sandwiches |!3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j
and Linda-bloody McCartney's Tofu- |R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++) B? e+
toffees --Edina, Absolutely Fabulous|u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?

Further Reading

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