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Message no. 1
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: New Initiative rule?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:46:31 +0200
Just seeing from Patrick Goodman on Dumpshock that the new initiative system
is not yet in place, I dug out this old e-mail that I never finished and
never sent off:

Ever since I read SR1 back in 1989 I have been trying to tweak the
Initiative system, sometimes with good effect, sometimes with bad effect.

We actually introduced something like the SR2 system 3 months before SR2 was
published, basically because we were sick and tired of tables, so just
subtracting 7 from you Initiative would decide wether you could have extra
actions. But when SR2 came along we changed it to 10 as per the SR2 rules.

The Initiative system has however never satisfied me. The worst thing is the
notion of rounds, which I would love to throw out.

I did it for AD&D 2nd Ed. where we made a system which allowed you to roll
your initiative (1D10 + modifiers, most of the modifiers was the modifiers
AD&D already used), and when you were done with your action, you just rolled
your next initiative and added that to your current initiative. So for
example you would shoot somebody with you bow (rolling 7 for Initiative),
then you decide to cast a spell (rolling 9 for your initiative), so the
spell would be cast at 16. That was the basic of the system, it was simple
and very effective. It allowed fast characters to have more actions per
round (high dexterity gave you initiative modifiers which you would subtract
from the roll), it allowed for luck (1D10), it allowed for quick weapons
(Knife = Speed factor 2) to have more attacks than slow weapons (2-Handed
Sword = Speed Factor 10) and for quick spells (casting time=1) to be even
faster. So not only could the fighter get more attack per round, so could
everybody else (you got -1 initiative for each weapon proficiecy).

I've been trying to do something similar for SR for years, but have never
succeded. The problem is finding a base to start out with.

The best so far has been the following:

Base Initiative is 36-Reaction. Each time you rolled your initiative dice,
you subtracted them from base Initiative, and that was when you had you
action:

So Hua with a Reaction of 7 and Initiative of 7+2D6, would have a Base
Initiative of 29 (36-7), and have his action on 29-2D6.

Once you had your action you added an amount depending on what type of
action you had. Free actions you added nothing. Simple actions adde +5, and
complex actions added +10.

You next action would occour at Base Initiative-Initiative dice, added to
the action where you currently were.

Hua would roll 2D6 and get a 8 for his first action, which would occour at
21 (29-8), his action was to ready 2 of his shurikens (Quickness of 5,
simple action), and he would be finished doing this 5 counts later (26),
next he wants to throw a shuriken (current count 26+(29-2D6), rolling 10
lets him throw the shuriken at 45 (26+19), end he would be finished doing
this 5 counts later (simple action, 50), throwing the next shuriken at
(current count 50+(29-2D6), rolling 12g), and so on.

Thus:
21: Ready 2 shurikens (finished at 26)
45: Throw shuriken (finished at 50)
67: Throw shuriken (finished at 72)
etc.

If instead he had readyed his staff, and attacked his opponent with the same
rolls, the reaults would have been:
21: Ready staff (finished at 26)
45: Attack with staff (finished at 55)
72: Attack with staff (finished at 82)
etc.

That means there is no rounds, and you never stop counting. 30 counts equal
3 seconds, which means that most normal persons would be able to do one
simple actin in 3 seconds (36-30-1D6, 0 counts for free, 5 for simple, 10
for complex actions).

Last thing: In addition you can perform a single free action whenever
anybody has an action (including yourself).

Comments?

Lars
Message no. 2
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: New Initiative rule?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:05:43 +0200
On Apr 13, 2005, at 13:46, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

> Just seeing from Patrick Goodman on Dumpshock that the new initiative
> system
> is not yet in place, I dug out this old e-mail that I never finished
> and
> never sent off:
>
> Ever since I read SR1 back in 1989 I have been trying to tweak the
> Initiative system, sometimes with good effect, sometimes with bad
> effect.
>
> We actually introduced something like the SR2 system 3 months before
> SR2 was
> published, basically because we were sick and tired of tables, so just
> subtracting 7 from you Initiative would decide wether you could have
> extra
> actions. But when SR2 came along we changed it to 10 as per the SR2
> rules.
>
> The Initiative system has however never satisfied me. The worst thing
> is the
> notion of rounds, which I would love to throw out.
>
> I did it for AD&D 2nd Ed. where we made a system which allowed you to
> roll
> your initiative (1D10 + modifiers, most of the modifiers was the
> modifiers
> AD&D already used), and when you were done with your action, you just
> rolled
> your next initiative and added that to your current initiative. So for
> example you would shoot somebody with you bow (rolling 7 for
> Initiative),
> then you decide to cast a spell (rolling 9 for your initiative), so the
> spell would be cast at 16. That was the basic of the system, it was
> simple
> and very effective. It allowed fast characters to have more actions per
> round (high dexterity gave you initiative modifiers which you would
> subtract from the roll), it allowed for luck (1D10), it allowed for
> quick weapons (Knife = Speed factor 2) to have more attacks than slow
> weapons (2-Handed Sword = Speed Factor 10) and for quick spells
> (casting time=1) to be even faster. So not only could the fighter get
> more attack per round, so could everybody else (you got -1 initiative
> for each weapon proficiecy).
>
> I've been trying to do something similar for SR for years, but have
> never
> succeded. The problem is finding a base to start out with.
>
> The best so far has been the following:
>
> Base Initiative is 36-Reaction. Each time you rolled your initiative
> dice,
> you subtracted them from base Initiative, and that was when you had you
> action:
>
> So Hua with a Reaction of 7 and Initiative of 7+2D6, would have a Base
> Initiative of 29 (36-7), and have his action on 29-2D6.
>
> Once you had your action you added an amount depending on what type of
> action you had. Free actions you added nothing. Simple actions adde
> +5, and complex actions added +10.
>
> You next action would occour at Base Initiative-Initiative dice, added
> to
> the action where you currently were.
>
> Hua would roll 2D6 and get a 8 for his first action, which would
> occour at
> 21 (29-8), his action was to ready 2 of his shurikens (Quickness of 5,
> simple action), and he would be finished doing this 5 counts later
> (26),
> next he wants to throw a shuriken (current count 26+(29-2D6), rolling
> 10
> lets him throw the shuriken at 45 (26+19), end he would be finished
> doing
> this 5 counts later (simple action, 50), throwing the next shuriken at
> (current count 50+(29-2D6), rolling 12=67), and so on.
>
> Thus:
> 21: Ready 2 shurikens (finished at 26)
> 45: Throw shuriken (finished at 50)
> 67: Throw shuriken (finished at 72)
> etc.
>
> If instead he had readyed his staff, and attacked his opponent with
> the same rolls, the reaults would have been:
> 21: Ready staff (finished at 26)
> 45: Attack with staff (finished at 55)
> 72: Attack with staff (finished at 82)
> etc.
>
> That means there is no rounds, and you never stop counting. 30 counts
> equal
> 3 seconds, which means that most normal persons would be able to do one
> simple actin in 3 seconds (36-3=30-1D6, 0 counts for free, 5 for
> simple, 10
> for complex actions).
>
> Last thing: In addition you can perform a single free action whenever
> anybody has an action (including yourself).
>
> Comments?
>
> Lars
>

This sounds pretty good. In RuneQuest we have the concept of strike
ranks, where you have modifiers based on your dexterity and size. So
more dextrous and bigger people can get their melee weapon to bear
faster, etc.

With the elimination of our traditional combat pool there is no need
to refresh. Therefore, the concept of the turn can most probably be
eliminated. If we are to just count up in time from the beginning of
combat all we need to do is make sure people that are faster get more
actions. Using your (36-Reaction) technique would solve this problem
for a lot of things. Note that if there are really fast creatures (or
computer constructs, or vehicles, etc.) the 36 may need to be increased
to ensure you always have a positive modifier to the "count." If one
is attempting to unify all the types of combat into one simple system
like this it may be difficult to map these "counts" into real time
units. For example, does 50 counts mean one second?

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 3
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: New Initiative rule?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:57:27 +0200
From: "Scott Harrison" <scott@**********.com>
On Apr 13, 2005, at 13:46, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
><Snip>
>> That means there is no rounds, and you never stop counting. 30 counts
>> equal 3 seconds
<Snip>
> For example, does 50 counts mean one second?

30 counts equal 3 seconds, thus 10 counts equal 1 second.

Lars
Message no. 4
From: Indianer45@***.net (Andy D Pfister)
Subject: New Initiative rule?
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:55:52 +0200
Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

<snip>
> The best so far has been the following:
>
> Base Initiative is 36-Reaction. Each time you rolled your initiative dice,
> you subtracted them from base Initiative, and that was when you had you
> action:
>
> So Hua with a Reaction of 7 and Initiative of 7+2D6, would have a Base
> Initiative of 29 (36-7), and have his action on 29-2D6.
>
> Once you had your action you added an amount depending on what type of
> action you had. Free actions you added nothing. Simple actions adde +5,
> and complex actions added +10.
>
> You next action would occour at Base Initiative-Initiative dice, added to
> the action where you currently were.
>
> Hua would roll 2D6 and get a 8 for his first action, which would occour at
> 21 (29-8), his action was to ready 2 of his shurikens (Quickness of 5,
> simple action), and he would be finished doing this 5 counts later (26),
> next he wants to throw a shuriken (current count 26+(29-2D6), rolling 10
> lets him throw the shuriken at 45 (26+19), end he would be finished doing
> this 5 counts later (simple action, 50), throwing the next shuriken at
> (current count 50+(29-2D6), rolling 12g), and so on.
>
> Thus:
> 21: Ready 2 shurikens (finished at 26)
> 45: Throw shuriken (finished at 50)
> 67: Throw shuriken (finished at 72)
> etc.
>
> If instead he had readyed his staff, and attacked his opponent with the
> same rolls, the reaults would have been:
> 21: Ready staff (finished at 26)
> 45: Attack with staff (finished at 55)
> 72: Attack with staff (finished at 82)
> etc.
>
> That means there is no rounds, and you never stop counting. 30 counts equal
> 3 seconds, which means that most normal persons would be able to do one
> simple actin in 3 seconds (36-30-1D6, 0 counts for free, 5 for simple, 10
> for complex actions).
>
> Last thing: In addition you can perform a single free action whenever
> anybody has an action (including yourself).
>
> Comments?
>
> Lars

I like it. Now I'll try to persuade my group to try it. Thanks for
sharing :)

-- Indianer
Message no. 5
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: New Initiative rule?
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:55:28 +0200
From: "Andy D Pfister" <Indianer45@***.net>
> Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> The best so far has been the following:
<Snip>
>
> I like it. Now I'll try to persuade my group to try it. Thanks for sharing
> :)

You are welcome, I hope you like it.

But at least it look like Initiative in SR4 will be an attribute+skill test
against T#5, and whoever gets the most successes reacts first.

Simple and elegant.

Lars

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