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Message no. 1
From: Marcos Adi <adimar@*******.CO.IL>
Subject: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:52:01 +0200
IMHO The initiative system as it's described in shadowrun has several
major drawbacks: 1 - first it is very much dependant on luck (expecialy when
dealing with higher levels of response increases.)
2 - it doesn't reflect the skill of the character when
determining initiative.
3 - the normal uncybered\bioed reflexes of a character
don't matter much. since most of the initiative comes from the cyberware :-(

I have rworked the initiative system along different lines;
the baseinit = reaction + skill
response increase applies a multiplier to the baseinit to recieve the
true initiative:
wired reflexes - 1:initiative = baseinit x2, 2: x3, 3:x4
boosted reflexes - 1:x1.5 (rounded down), 2:x2, 3:x2.5
synaptic acelerator - 1: x1.5, 2: x2
Physical adept(increased reflexes)- 1 point x1.5, 2.5 points x2,
4 points x2.5, 6 points x3, 8 points x3.5, 10 points x4
also note that the skill increase of physical adepts is
considered regullar skill for the purpuses of calculating the
baseinit thus resolving the prob of infirior p.adept init
this answers all the probs that I mentioned before plus the fact that it
saves on a lot of die rolling during combat.

I would appriciate any comments on this.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adi Marcus - adimar@*********.net.il
'there is no fate but what we make..."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:21:17 +1100
> I have rworked the initiative system along different lines;
> the baseinit = reaction + skill

What the hell skill are you going to use? Are you going to create a new
skill for it?

Lady Jestyr

-----------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs
-----------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
-----------------------------------------------
Remember, no matter what they say, you can
never have enough sugar. - Michael
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: Marcos Adi <adimar@*******.CO.IL>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:29:48 +0200
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:
> What the hell skill are you going to use? Are you going to create a new
> skill for it?

No, I appologize for not making it clear. the skill I refer to is the
combat skill thats being used.(i.e a person can have different initiative
scores for every combat skill, which comes to reason after all take a
martial arts expert and he'll be able punch you sevberal times before you
even blink.(I'm sorry to say that this is the voice of experience.)
the same martial artist willn't be able to compeate with a trained
practical shooting (I have no idea what the exact term in english is. sorry)

--------------------------------------------------
Adi Marcus - adimar@*********.net.il
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 02:32:53 -0500
> No, I appologize for not making it clear. the skill I refer to is the
>combat skill thats being used.(i.e a person can have different initiative
>scores for every combat skill, which comes to reason after all take a
>martial arts expert and he'll be able punch you sevberal times before you
>even blink.(I'm sorry to say that this is the voice of experience.)
>the same martial artist willn't be able to compeate with a trained
>practical shooting (I have no idea what the exact term in english is. sorry)

I belive the word you're looking for is marksman or sharpshooter. ;-)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Goodie!
Maybe it's those Rocket Skates I ordered from the ACME company!
The last pair backfired and almost blew my legs halfway to my Duodenum.
But I'll get that pesky Road Runner yet.
With My Life's Blood I swear it!

"Deadpool #3"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 5
From: Gavin Lewis <lewis@**.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:14:13 +0800
>I have rworked the initiative system along different lines;
>the baseinit = reaction + skill

<snip cool idea on initiatives>

I think the only problem is that it takes away ALL luck. There should be
some sort of luck associated with encounters. Maybe add a random factor of
1d6 or some such!

Gav
Message no. 6
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:33:02 +1100
At 12:52 PM 19/02/97 +0200, you wrote:

Well, here's some comments:

>IMHO The initiative system as it's described in shadowrun has several
>major drawbacks: 1 - first it is very much dependant on luck (expecialy when
>dealing with higher levels of response increases.)

Yes, that's true. It adds an element of chance and randomness which is
required to make the game less predictable and more fun.

> 2 - it doesn't reflect the skill of the character when
>determining initiative.

A person's skill does not necessarily indicate how fast that person is. Just
because person 'A' can shoot better than person 'B', does not necessarily
indicate that person 'A' can shoot faster than person 'B'. You have to
consider things as how fast the person's brain is, perception etc etc.

Most rules for skills have already considered that better skilled people are
faster at what they do. Consider the base time division rules. The base time
is say, 4 hrs. A highly skilled person could reduce it to 1 hr.

A person's initiative deals more with instinct than skill. ie., natural ability.

> 3 - the normal uncybered\bioed reflexes of a character
>don't matter much. since most of the initiative comes from the cyberware :-(

Actually depends on the world you live in. Just because wired reflexes etc
are available, does not mean everyone gets them. There are quite strong
social reasons against wires.

Shaman-who-thinks-he-just-got-himself-into-a-hole-too-deep-to-climb-out-of
_______________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In ShadowRun: Shaman

"Strange are the times we live in.
Stranger are the times we are to live.
But strangest of all are the times we have lived."
- Me, just then trying to be deep and meaningful
________________________________________________________
Message no. 7
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 08:07:44 -0800
From: Marcos Adi <adimar@*******.CO.IL>
>
> No, I appologize for not making it clear. the skill I refer to is the
> combat skill thats being used.(i.e a person can have different initiative
> scores for every combat skill, which comes to reason after all take a
> martial arts expert and he'll be able punch you sevberal times before you
> even blink.

How do you handle the case where someone changes skills in the middle of
a combat turn? For example, starts out shooting at someone, then when
a target closes with him, changes to armed combat and clubs the target
with the butt of his gun.
Message no. 8
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:50:18 +0000
On 20 Feb 97 at 8:29, Marcos Adi wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:
> > What the hell skill are you going to use? Are you going to create a new
> > skill for it?
> No, I appologize for not making it clear. the skill I refer to is the
> combat skill thats being used.(i.e a person can have different initiative
> scores for every combat skill, which comes to reason after all take a
> martial arts expert and he'll be able punch you sevberal times before you
> even blink.(I'm sorry to say that this is the voice of experience.)
> the same martial artist willn't be able to compeate with a trained
> practical shooting (I have no idea what the exact term in english is. sorry)
OK. Now my character holds his ground, and shoot at the charging
attackers. High Firearms skill, some wired reflexes. Within the same
combat round, the enemy reaches me. Now I hit him... wait... What about
my Initiative (say, low Unarmed Combat skill)... ?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | *BLAM!* *BLAM!* |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| Stop! |
| \___ __/ | | *BLAM!* *BLAM!* |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | Police! |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | -- ??? |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 9
From: Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 08:21:30 +1100
At 08:29 AM 20/02/97 +0200, you wrote:
>On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Lady Jestyr wrote:
>> What the hell skill are you going to use? Are you going to create a new
>> skill for it?
>
> No, I appologize for not making it clear. the skill I refer to is the
>combat skill thats being used.(i.e a person can have different initiative
>scores for every combat skill, which comes to reason after all take a
>martial arts expert and he'll be able punch you sevberal times before you
>even blink.(I'm sorry to say that this is the voice of experience.)
>the same martial artist willn't be able to compeate with a trained
>practical shooting (I have no idea what the exact term in english is. sorry)

Two points:

1). Melee combat is considered to be a series of moves, not just the one
punch. Hence, it is a culmination of attacks.

2). A martial arts expert would have gained some karma. What is to stop them
from pumping up their reaction by pumping up their IQ and/or Quickness?
Hence, an experienced martial artist would be faster simply because of how
they used their experience in training.

Shaman-who-doesn't-want-to-start-another-martial-arts-thread.
_______________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In ShadowRun: Shaman

"Strange are the times we live in.
Stranger are the times we are to live.
But strangest of all are the times we have lived."
- Me, just then trying to be deep and meaningful
________________________________________________________
Message no. 10
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 04:39:37 +0100
On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:52:01 +0200, Marcos Adi wrote:

>I would appriciate any comments on this.

I won't use it. Think that's clear.
Well, of course it's your game, but I think luck is what makes
role-playing interesting. And in _my_ games only very few people have
cyberwear to make them faster, so it's perfect that most people act
once in a turn, but after each other.

But another question was brought up by a new player in my group:
How do you handle combat turn?
AFAIK a turn lasts three seconds.
Normal people act once in a turn.
If a cybered or magically enhanced person roles, say, 30, each phase
should last 0.1 seconds: 3 seconds divided by 30.
That means, normal people stand there, looking in the air, for two
seconds, then they act???
I as a GM would _not_ use that rule. I'd _not_ say that every phase has
the same length, but that they are only used for book-keeping of the
actions of the players.
What do you think?

--
Arno
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Message no. 11
From: Marcos Adi <adimar@*******.CO.IL>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 12:12:11 +0200
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997 mike.paff@*****.COM wrote:
> How do you handle the case where someone changes skills in the middle of
> a combat turn? For example, starts out shooting at someone, then when
> a target closes with him, changes to armed combat and clubs the target
> with the butt of his gun.

As explained in the regular rules each action takes place 10 segments
after the previous action. When a character wants to switch skills in the
middle of a turn the second skill must have a initiative score greater
that or equal to the current segment number.
for example : if your fired a rifle at segment 32 and want to fire it's
greate lanuncher(init 28) then at action 22 ou will be able to fire the
grenade launcher.
also note that U may enforce special init penalties based on the
difference between the skills:for example
- switching from rifle to an under barrel grenade launcher doesn't
involve a penalty
- switching from rifle to clubing somebody would enforce a 3 segment penalty to
the action.
- switching between rifle and pistol has a 7 segment penalty
et...
this penalty is applies after the usual 10 segment delay.

hope this helps
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Adi Marcus - adimar@*********.net.il
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Marcos Adi <adimar@*******.CO.IL>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:46:12 +0200
On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Arno R. Lehmann wrote:
> Well, of course it's your game, but I think luck is what makes
> role-playing interesting.

IMHO luck is what makes roll-playing interesting :-( , I prefer role-playing.

> How do you handle combat turn?
> If a cybered or magically enhanced person roles, say, 30, each phase
> should last 0.1 seconds: 3 seconds divided by 30.
> That means, normal people stand there, looking in the air, for two
> seconds, then they act???

As dear old Einstain used evrything is relative.
a wired street sam will see meat-man (uncybered) as moving in slow motion...
an unaugmented man will see a cybered street monster as a blur of action...
(the reuglar man doesn't wait for two seconds he starts acting, he starts
to act at the begining of the turn but he move slower than the wired person
compare it to a race between karl luis and yours truly. he'll cross the
finish line while I'm only half way through the race. even though we both
started at the same time)
a phase in contrast of a turn isn't a set period of time, it's a fluid
counter of speed based on a devision of 3 seconds to a chronological
sequence of handling actions.

------------------------------------------------------------
Adi Marcsu - adimar@*********.net.il
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New Initiative rules (Re:Max Initiative)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 00:30:56 +0100
On Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:46:12 +0200, Marcos Adi wrote:

>On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Arno R. Lehmann wrote:
>> Well, of course it's your game, but I think luck is what makes
>> role-playing interesting.
>
>IMHO luck is what makes roll-playing interesting :-( , I prefer role-playing.

Even the best role-player needs that little kick, that comes from
luck and hoping for it. When nothing like luck is needed everyone
knows the outcome of interactions. Still very interesting to interact
of course, but less than roleplaying, IMO.

>
>> How do you handle combat turn?
>> If a cybered or magically enhanced person roles, say, 30, each phase
>> should last 0.1 seconds: 3 seconds divided by 30.
>> That means, normal people stand there, looking in the air, for two
>> seconds, then they act???
>
>As dear old Einstain used evrything is relative.

Just my view of it.

>a wired street sam will see meat-man (uncybered) as moving in slow motion...
>an unaugmented man will see a cybered street monster as a blur of action...
>(the reuglar man doesn't wait for two seconds he starts acting, he starts
> to act at the begining of the turn but he move slower than the wired person

Still the slower man's actions come to effect after these two seconds,
don't they? So he doesn't wait, because he wants to, but because he
can't act faster. In effect not very different, I think.

> compare it to a race between karl luis and yours truly. he'll cross the
>finish line while I'm only half way through the race. even though we both
>started at the same time)
>a phase in contrast of a turn isn't a set period of time, it's a fluid
>counter of speed based on a devision of 3 seconds to a chronological
>sequence of handling actions.

So now take the case that there are 30 persont, with initiative values
from 1 to 30. How are things then? And should things not be similar
in this (truly unlikely:) case than in a combat turn with only 2 persons?

My problem is still unsolved, I think.

--
Arno
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