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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:59:03 +0200
Just a naff idea I just came up with... I think this Bug City book is
getting to me :)

BUTTERFLY
Butterfly spirits resemble common butterflies, and come in many shapes,
colors, and patterns. They are a solitary kind of insect spirit, and are
summoned in the same way Roach spirits are (see Bug City, page 100), with
the exception that all spirits (male and female) are treated as male spirits
for summoning purposes. Investing the host body with the spirit takes (2x
Force) days, during which time the host/spirit combination feeds on anything
edible it can get its hands on. During this time, the host body gradually
transforms into a caterpillar, but is free to move anywhere and do anything
-- the transformation is complete when the (2x Force) days are over. The
other butterfly spirits do not normally take care of the caterpillars,
though the shaman may order them to do so.
After this time (usually immediately), the spirit builds a coccoon for
itself, in which it transforms into the actual butterfly spirit. This
process takes a number of days equal to the spirit's Force rating.
Butterfly spirits do not build nests, though they do flock together. They
are usually encountered in places where nature hasn't been paved over, such
as forests, city parks, and so on.
Butterfly spirits are winged, but the caterpillars are not.

MALE BUTTERFLY SPIRIT (True Form)
B Q S C I W E R Armor
F (F+2)x3 F-2 - F 2 F Fx2 F-2
Receives a +20 Initiative bonus in astral space and +10 bonus when
physically manifest
Initiative: (Reaction+10)/(Reaction+20) +1D6
Threat/Professional Rating: (Force/2)/4
Attacks: Skill = Reaction, Damage = (str)L
Powers: Enhanced Senses (Smell)
Weaknesses: Dietary Requirement (Nectar), Vulnerability (Insecticides)
Notes: These statistics represent the physically manifest spirit. When
present in astral space, all statistics are equal to its Force.

FEMALE BUTTERFLY SPIRIT (True Form)
B Q S C I W E R Armor
F (F+3)x3 F-1 - F 2 F Fx2 F-2
Receives a +20 Initiative bonus in astral space and +10 bonus when
physically manifest
Initiative: (Reaction+10)/(Reaction+20) +1D6
Threat/Professional Rating: (Force/2)/4
Attacks: Skill = Reaction, Damage = (str)L
Powers: Animal Control (Butterflies), Enhanced Senses (Smell), Summoning
Weaknesses: Dietary Requirement (Nectar), Vulnerability (Insecticides)
Notes: These statistics represent the physically manifest spirit. When
present in astral space, all statistics are equal to its Force.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 2
From: Paul Finch <pfinch@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 02:53:46 -0700
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Just a naff idea I just came up with... I think this Bug City book is
> getting to me :)
>
> BUTTERFLY
<snip>

My lover and a player in my group were talking about doing a butterfly
spirit, fashioned after the one in the "Laste Unicorn" I like this and
I'll pass on their version when they get it done!

Edge

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are infinitely patient, prefering to minimize risks to themelves and
suffer a thousand defeats if they gain the final victory. Still, they are
diabolically clever, and devious in the extream. If they fail militarily,
they infiltrate and corrupt. Now they are on the march once more, and the
more they are set back, the more determined, devious and dangerous they
become. Curr ahee
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Peterson (Paul Finch) Edge | US Army Ret. 1/506th Inf (Mtr. Lt.)
EMT-Paramedic/BSN Wanna-be and Will-Be! Self Empowered Gun Nut
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:34:59 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> Just a naff idea I just came up with... I think this Bug City book is
> getting to me :)
>
> BUTTERFLY

Now, this is getting ridiculous. Imagine the scene:

GM: Okay, you're surrounded by five killer butterfly spirits. You think
(rolls dice for Astral Aura check) that they are about force five. Whatcha
going to do?

Player: Pull out a large jar, and get the cork board and pins ready.

Puhlease... Butterflys? (BTW, how much nectar do they need in that dietary
requirement?)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 4
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 05:24:43 -0800
Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
creepy things, instead of insects?

Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits? Actually,
that's not a bad idea.

-E, Beastmaster-in-Training
Message no. 5
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:49:04 +0200
> Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
> be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
> just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
> as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
> have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
> predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
> creepy things, instead of insects?
>
> Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits? Actually,
> that's not a bad idea.

Well horrors are your generic creepy things, so they had to think up
something different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea considering
that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever with mankind and
mammals in general. I mean most people I know would feel bad if anything
happened to any animal (mammal), but really dont give a shit for all those
pesky bugs crawling all around the place :) (this includes me)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 6
From: Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:40:39 -0600
> ... different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea considering
> that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever with mankind and
> mammals in general. I mean most people I know would feel bad if anything
> happened to any animal (mammal), but really dont give a shit for all those
> pesky bugs crawling all around the place :) (this includes me)
>

Most folks would figure humans for the dominate species of our planet, but
we do have some pretty stiff competition: microorganisms and _insects_.
Consider how hard it is to kill one ant nest. Smash each one with your
thumb? Not likely. And humans and insects often compete for the same
food sources: locusts eating crops, etc.

<birds are pretty successful, too. they're in niches *everywhere*.
dinosaurs live on as birds!>

Tim Serpas, BS Physics
wretch@**.com
Geek Code v.2: GS d- H++>+++ s:- !g p1 auVW a- w+ v+ C+(++++) U P? !L !3
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tv+>! b+>++ D+ B-- e++>-- u+ h- f+>* r n+ y+
Message no. 7
From: Vincent Pellerin <Vincent.Pellerin@***.GMC.ULAVAL.CA>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:35:44 -0500
Eve forward wrote...
>Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
>be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
>just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
>as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
>have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
>predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
>creepy things, instead of insects?
>
For one, i believe the are not part of our ecosystem, but from "somwere
else", they just look like our insects, maybe their part of some ecosystem
"somwere else". And, in the worse of luck, they have close behavior to the
insects they look likes.

For two, in double exposure, i read an interesting part on the insect spirit..
THEY ARE NOT EVIL, just different. Hey ! Ours insect would be dangerous too
if they where 6 foot tall ! They have a distinct way of thinking really
alien to us, they follow their instinct, to procreate and survive (just like
our own insect). The only problem is they want our happiness (and they will
get it !). Seriously, the only problem is with their powers (they are
dangerous), and the fact that they need us to "procreate". The bit i read
told me the consciousness of the host don't dissapear, but is change, to
comprehend the happiness of being protect and to serve the queen!!!! To be
part of the collective (You well be assimilated :-) ). Generic creepy thing
exist, but it they are not as definite and don't make people react as
strongly as big, intelligent and magically active 6 foot insects. (You
probably got the idea that i think the choice is pretty good, everybody as
is own opinion!)

A lot of people don't like insects (especially big ones) so it is a
dramatic choice mainly (i think), not a ecologicaly acceptable one. But
nothing stop you to have a ShadowRun game where the invasion come in the
form of big pink fuzzy dinausors, running after childrens (with a king
named barney), the effect might not be the same on the players :-). Just my
opinion......

_________________________________________________________________________
| _______ "You are yong only once....... |
| \ \ / ......... but you can be immature all yourlife !"|
| \ ___/ / -heard somewhere, i don'tremember |
| \ / |
| \_/ Vincent.Pellerin@***.gmc.ulaval.ca |
|________________________________________________________________________|
If you can see it, it worked, just saved the sig on a disk and load it each
time!
Message no. 8
From: Louis Barrera <lbarrera@****.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:08:08 -0700
E, Beastmaster-In-Training wrote this part:
> Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
> be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
> just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
> as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
> have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
> predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
> creepy things, instead of insects?
>
> Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits?
Actually,
> that's not a bad idea.

Feanor wrote this one:
> Well horrors are your generic creepy things, so they had to think up
>something different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea
>considering that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever with
>mankind and mammals in general. I mean most people I know would feel
>bad if anything happened to any animal (mammal), but really dont give a
>shit for all those pesky bugs crawling all around the place :) (this
i>ncludes me)

This part's me:
Bugs were an acceptable choice for the simple fact that they are ALIEN.
They are not toxic's, as was discussed here previously. Gamers may
tend to lump them together as the proverbial bad guys, but the fact is that
are not driven by the same goals. I just got Vincent.Pellerin 's note, and
tend to agree with the chummer. Except for the bit about them being
from 'somewhere' else. They share the same type of DNA. I don't think
we are the only game in town, and I don't think we have the corner on
how to make life go. In response to Feanor's comment about 'genetic'
connections, I think the more accurate term would have been empathic
link. The same can be said towards fish. Not many warm bloodeds feel
a link towards that cod that you're pulling a hook out of.

At the same time, I like the idea of anthrax, bubonicus, etc that E brings
up. But I think these would be a new type of spirit. They are based on
colonys of single celled organisms. Do their manifestations host in
colonies, or do they seek to spread and dissipate eventually? That could
be some really scary drek. All this from butterflies, which, I am sorry
Edge, but are ludicrous. Sure, they have as much a right for existence
as the rest of the Bugs, but combat wise, fah, gimme a baseball bat.
Their proboscus is fay, their chitinous armour non-existent, and their
wings a definite handicap. Like the chummer said, gimme a corked jar
and some pins.
Message no. 9
From: Brett Ryan Brown <calvinoi@*******.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:38:25 18000
> After this time (usually immediately), the spirit builds a coccoon for
^^^^^^^

But wait! _Moths_ build coccoons, butterflies build a "chrysalis".
(Sorry; I couldn't resist.)

-L8TR,
-Calvinoi MindFlyer

God help me if I'm wrong and I get flamed for irrelevant posting!
--
_/_/_/_/ _ calvinoi@*******.scri.fsu.edu
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_/ __ _ | | __ __ (_) _ _ ___ (_) text put there by me
_/ / _` | | | \ V / | | | ' \ / _ \ | | is SOLELY my _own_
_/_/_/_/ \__,_| |_| \_/ |_| |_||_\ \___/ |_| worthless blather.
=============================================== ----------------------.
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Message no. 10
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:41:37 -0800
If you want to get real, we've all got genetic connections with everything,
including insects, back to various primordial slime.

Lot of people wouldn't have a problem with having snakes be the generic
evil bad guys, but I happen to be very fond of snakes and I can recognize
and value their role in the environment, even though I don't have any
direct species link with them. Same goes for insects.

Now, this isn't to say I won't swat flies, or kill rats, or even snakes
if they threaten my health or existence. But I don't think they're evil.
Calling any species of living thing "evil" is just bad news, IMHO.

With the possible exception of Adam Getchell, of course.

-E
Message no. 11
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:44:09 -0800
I just don't like seeing animals be portrayed as the bad guys, when
if you really want to see a species that's f*cked up the planet, take
a look in a mirror.

-E
Message no. 12
From: Todd James Gillespie <toddg@****.ACS.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 17:59:02 -0600
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> E, Beastmaster-In-Training wrote this part:
> > Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
> > be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
> > just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
> > as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
> > have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
> > predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
> > creepy things, instead of insects?
> >
> > Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits?
> Actually,
> > that's not a bad idea.
>
> Feanor wrote this one:
> > Well horrors are your generic creepy things, so they had to think up
> >something different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea
> >considering that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >mankind and mammals in general.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bulldrek. The vast majority of the 3-billion pair DNA chain is the same
from species to species. Only a VERY small amount of DNA is actually used
in each species, and less is varied between them. (Introns and extrons,
anyone?) You share roughly 90% of your DNA with the average eukaryotic
bacterium or protist; and somewhere between 99.5 and 99.9% with a chimp.


>
> This part's me:
> Bugs were an acceptable choice for the simple fact that they are ALIEN.

Exactly. Even reptiles are alien to mammalian thinking. (something, I
think FASA conveniently forgot when concocting totems.) But on the
subject of insects, note something. The species used as totems are all
colony insects. You have to gloss over this bit. From an
mammal/bird/reptile point of view, the self is most important. They're
out there hunting, doing their thing, etc. for themselves, so THEY can
live, THEY can have young, etc. Even is pack oriented society, there are
limits to how much they'll give. Look at the colony insect point of view.
They're doing their thing so that the queen can eat, have young, etc.
There is no "lone wolf" thing going on.
No look at the actual people doing this. Shadowrunners are NOT colony
people. They're usually there completely for themselves, they support
anarchy, etc. This is definetely not colony thinking. For insect
shamans, remember the Grimthingy said that they're psycotic and deranged.
It's fairly easy to see why.



===========
Jean-Paul Sartre's answering machine:
I'm not here. You're not here. There is no message. There is no beep.
Message no. 13
From: "Patrick D. Little" <pdl@******.NET>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 21:27:09 PST
I would agree that a butterfly spirit, may appear to have less of a chance
than other insect spirits but things are not always what they seem...
Also, I disagree that spirits are things that are used in a campaign, as
things to fight, there are other productive ways that this type of spirit
could be used.
Message no. 14
From: "Patrick D. Little" <pdl@******.NET>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 21:57:00 PST
---------------Original Message---------------
On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Louis Barrera wrote:

> E, Beastmaster-In-Training wrote this part:
> > Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
> > be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
> > just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
> > as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
> > have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
> > predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
> > creepy things, instead of insects?
> >
> > Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits?
> Actually,
> > that's not a bad idea.
>
> Feanor wrote this one:
> > Well horrors are your generic creepy things, so they had to think up
> >something different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea
> >considering that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >mankind and mammals in general.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bulldrek. The vast majority of the 3-billion pair DNA chain is the same
from species to species. Only a VERY small amount of DNA is actually used
in each species, and less is varied between them. (Introns and extrons,
anyone?) You share roughly 90% of your DNA with the average eukaryotic
bacterium or protist; and somewhere between 99.5 and 99.9% with a chimp.


>
> This part's me:
> Bugs were an acceptable choice for the simple fact that they are ALIEN.

Exactly. Even reptiles are alien to mammalian thinking. (something, I
think FASA conveniently forgot when concocting totems.) But on the
subject of insects, note something. The species used as totems are all
colony insects. You have to gloss over this bit. From an
mammal/bird/reptile point of view, the self is most important. They're
out there hunting, doing their thing, etc. for themselves, so THEY can
live, THEY can have young, etc. Even is pack oriented society, there are
limits to how much they'll give. Look at the colony insect point of view.
They're doing their thing so that the queen can eat, have young, etc.
There is no "lone wolf" thing going on.
No look at the actual people doing this. Shadowrunners are NOT colony
people. They're usually there completely for themselves, they support
anarchy, etc. This is definetely not colony thinking. For insect
shamans, remember the Grimthingy said that they're psycotic and deranged.
It's fairly easy to see why.



===========
Jean-Paul Sartre's answering machine:
I'm not here. You're not here. There is no message. There is no beep.


----------End of Original Message----------
There is one issue, that seems to be missing from this discussion. FASA did
not make up the existence of totems. FASA has researched totemistic beliefs
structures and built them into their game structure. So, consider that the
beliefs that were used to construct these totems are not 20th century
scientific beliefs and therefore can not be considered on that criteria.

-------------------------------------
E-mail: Patrick
Date: 03/23/95
Time: 19:56:31


-------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:55:50 -0600
Actually, Butterflies are a totem for shamanistic tribes in the Amazons
in real life. They help lead the seeker to the 'dreamtime' or to other worlds.
Some are good butterfly spirits, some are bad, depends on the color. Also
in South America, butterflies gather on the blood after a kill, so can
also represent death. Again, this is from REAL life, not SR

Also anyone from Australia ever read up on whether the termites there are
important in 'dreamtime' stories? Bet they are :)
Kay


>Exactly. Even reptiles are alien to mammalian thinking. (something, I
>think FASA conveniently forgot when concocting totems.) But on the
>subject of insects, note something. The species used as totems are all
>colony insects. You have to gloss over this bit. From an
>mammal/bird/reptile point of view, the self is most important. They're
>out there hunting, doing their thing, etc. for themselves, so THEY can
>live, THEY can have young, etc. Even is pack oriented society, there are
>limits to how much they'll give. Look at the colony insect point of view.
>They're doing their thing so that the queen can eat, have young, etc.
>There is no "lone wolf" thing going on.
> No look at the actual people doing this. Shadowrunners are NOT colony
>people. They're usually there completely for themselves, they support
>anarchy, etc. This is definetely not colony thinking. For insect
>shamans, remember the Grimthingy said that they're psycotic and deranged.
>It's fairly easy to see why.
>
>
>
>===========
>Jean-Paul Sartre's answering machine:
> I'm not here. You're not here. There is no message. There is no beep.
>
>
>----------End of Original Message----------
>There is one issue, that seems to be missing from this discussion. FASA did
>not make up the existence of totems. FASA has researched totemistic beliefs
>structures and built them into their game structure. So, consider that the
>beliefs that were used to construct these totems are not 20th century
>scientific beliefs and therefore can not be considered on that criteria.
>
>-------------------------------------
>E-mail: Patrick
>Date: 03/23/95
>Time: 19:56:31
>
>
>-------------------------------------
>
>
Message no. 16
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:05:28 +0930
Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:
>
> Actually, Butterflies are a totem for shamanistic tribes in the Amazons
> in real life. They help lead the seeker to the 'dreamtime' or to other worlds.
> Some are good butterfly spirits, some are bad, depends on the color. Also
> in South America, butterflies gather on the blood after a kill, so can
> also represent death. Again, this is from REAL life, not SR
>
> Also anyone from Australia ever read up on whether the termites there are
> important in 'dreamtime' stories? Bet they are :)
> Kay

I think you'd bet wrong... the Dreamtime animals I know of (universal to
all tribes) are Snake, Kangaroo, and Frog. Depending on where you are,
there's also Koala (on the east coast), Bunyip (mainly south and central
areas), the Lightning Man (Northern regions), the 12 Sons (the first
people), and the Rainbow Snake (more specialised version of Snake).

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:47:25 +0200
>Actually I've always thought the whole "Insect Spirit" part of SR to
>be kinda lame. Speaking from a purely simple standpoint, insects are
>just as natural, just as vital to the planet, and have been here just
>as long, if not longer, than all the cute fuzzy animals. Why they should
>have to be the bad guys is beyond me. I know about all the Invae stuff,
>predecessors to Horrors, etc, but why can't they look like generic
>creepy things, instead of insects?

Every game needs bad guys, and I think FASA made them insect spirits is
because a good many people are scared by them -- lots of people duck or wave
their arms when a bee or wasp buzzes over their heads, totally forgetting
that that is what makes the wasp think it's under attack... and then they
blame the insect for attacking them. Strange, but true...
I personally like putting insect spirits into my adventures, and will
continue to do so. Hell, I know where my players will be late in August 2055...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Is it?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 18
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:42:29 +0200
> If you want to get real, we've all got genetic connections with everything,
> including insects, back to various primordial slime.
> Lot of people wouldn't have a problem with having snakes be the generic
> evil bad guys, but I happen to be very fond of snakes and I can recognize
> and value their role in the environment, even though I don't have any
> direct species link with them. Same goes for insects.
> Now, this isn't to say I won't swat flies, or kill rats, or even snakes
> if they threaten my health or existence. But I don't think they're evil.
> Calling any species of living thing "evil" is just bad news, IMHO.

I guess this flame is headed myway so I might as well respond :)
Well I think you got me wrong, as other listmembers already pointed out
the concept of "good vs evil" has absolutely nothing to do with
nature. By claiming that insects are not evil you anthropomorphise :)
them - this is just a match between two teams as I see it and I
definitely choose to support my home team.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 19
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:45:01 +0200
> I just don't like seeing animals be portrayed as the bad guys, when
> if you really want to see a species that's f*cked up the planet, take
> a look in a mirror.

No lets not get sentimental here, the world is not all bad after all.
I mean look at all the cool stuff man has managed to practically conjure
out of nothing. Sure any experiment can go awry, but that is the price
ones pays for trying - or would you rather stay ignorant just because
you fear the consequences of your actions ?

PS: Please dont let this degenerate into a Magic(k) thread .....

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 20
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 16:49:40 +0200
> > Feanor wrote this one:
> > > Well horrors are your generic creepy things, so they had to think up
> > >something different. Anyway I really do think that its a good idea
> > >considering that insects have no "genetic" connection whatsoever
with
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >mankind and mammals in general.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Bulldrek. The vast majority of the 3-billion pair DNA chain is the same
> from species to species. Only a VERY small amount of DNA is actually used
> in each species, and less is varied between them. (Introns and extrons,
> anyone?) You share roughly 90% of your DNA with the average eukaryotic
> bacterium or protist; and somewhere between 99.5 and 99.9% with a chimp.

I concur, the term I used was highly inapropriate - please forgive my
ignorance and try to understand what I am trying to communicate here.
Mamals and insects are two totally different branches of the evolutionary
process - two "branches" (for lack of a more apropriate term) that have
totally different "philosophies" and different goals.

> > This part's me:
> > Bugs were an acceptable choice for the simple fact that they are ALIEN.
>
> Exactly. Even reptiles are alien to mammalian thinking. (something, I
> think FASA conveniently forgot when concocting totems.) But on the
> subject of insects, note something. The species used as totems are all
> colony insects. You have to gloss over this bit. From an
> mammal/bird/reptile point of view, the self is most important. They're
> out there hunting, doing their thing, etc. for themselves, so THEY can
> live, THEY can have young, etc. Even is pack oriented society, there are
> limits to how much they'll give. Look at the colony insect point of view.
> They're doing their thing so that the queen can eat, have young, etc.
> There is no "lone wolf" thing going on.

Exactly that is what I am talking about.

> No look at the actual people doing this. Shadowrunners are NOT colony
> people. They're usually there completely for themselves, they support
> anarchy, etc. This is definetely not colony thinking. For insect
> shamans, remember the Grimthingy said that they're psycotic and deranged.
> It's fairly easy to see why.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 21
From: G'Koth of the Narn Empire <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:11:42 -0700
Actually Eve, you wanted some cultural refernces to insects being "bad,
wicked things" to humans? Here's a few off the top of my head...

Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
The Spider has never been a friend to humanity. It has been
portrayed as evil, wicked, and conniving, with plans far above and
stranger than most mortals. All kinds of literature and myth refer to
Spider this way. I mean, good god, humanity _does_ have reason to fear
the Spider; a small, easily hidden creature that can kill with relative
ease (or at minimum ruin your day). Check out "Arachnaphobia" to see how
deeply seated the fear of spiders is. In fact, that is the scariest
movie _I_ have ever seen (gave me nightmares for a week).

Ant
Now, Ant has never really been feared. People just don't
understand them. What makes them move as they do? Why do they follow
each other like they do? Why do they build their nests? How do they
build they nests? How to they communicate? For a vast majority of
people, Ant is a subject of wonder/fascination. And where they have been
mentioned in literature and myth, this is typically the case.

Roach
Never found a place in literature that I know of, but what is the
prevailing opinion of roaches? Dirty little bastards that are difficult
to kill. Most people are aware of the fact/myth that roaches will
survive a nuclear war (while we don't). People just don't like Roach.

Fly
The same thing with Fly (as with Roach). I do believe Fly has
popped up in a couple of myth and stories, but I can't exactly recall.
If my fuzzy, stressed out memory serves me, Fly hasn't been treated very
well in literature.

The same sorts of attitudes and beliefs will hold true for the rest of
the given Insect totems. We just don't understand insects; on one hand,
they fascinate us, but on the other hand, they confuse and scare us.

Now I admit I haven't given any specifics, but this is off the top of my
head and my brain isn't what it used to be (too much stress). But I
think my generalities are pretty much right on; they usually are.

While mundane insects may be ecologically sound and custom fitted to
their environment and maybe deserve more respect (not from me though),
you also have to remember that mundane insects are not direct analogues
to Insect Spirits. The Insects are, in part, determined and shaped by
our world view of insects, and so Insects are the Jungian, cultural
archetypes we belive them to be. We believe mundane insects are a
certain way (which may or may not be true) and so Insect Spirits reflect
to a certain extent that belief.

In any case, I hope this helps some.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
list.member.grumpy

"Weep for the future Na'Toth,
weep for us all"
-G'Kar
Message no. 22
From: Sean Sheridan <spsherid@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:15:05 -0600
>Lot of people wouldn't have a problem with having snakes be the generic
>evil bad guys, but I happen to be very fond of snakes and I can recognize
>and value their role in the environment, even though I don't have any
>direct species link with them. Same goes for insects.

I don't think that the FASA people actuallt meant that Insect Spirits were
evil, just alien.
I mean, An animal like a bear is rather similar to a human. They're social,
they breed similarly, they eat similar foods. I mean, I can relate to a
bear. Or a horse. Or a dog or a cat. They really seem like people sometimes.
Now FASA needed HORROR. Bears aren't horrific. They Fly is. Look at that
movie. Your nor a werewolf, your part FLY. YUCH. Insects have a totally
alien view of the world. Their social structure is the antithesis of human
society. You could liken the hive to the Body Snatchers world. All the
same, all for the hive, no individuality. That is a horrific thought that
is fairly common in western thought. AKA Heinleins Pupet Masters. Or any
other of amyriad of parasites that control the human spirit.
Now add the mutation of the body. The impregnation of a human body with a
spirit egg. Similar to the Vampire and Werewolf folktales, a ery horrific
concept is that evil can TAKE you. A common conceit of the middle ages was
that disease was a punishment of the gods because they refused to believe
that such a wretched thing like leprosy could be inflicted on the innocent.

This all ties together in the horrific elements of the Insect Spirits. They
can posses you body and soul. They are brought on us by our own kind. They
look icky. Big Bugs are SCARY. Ever seen THEM, a movie about fifty foot
tall ants, or Steven Kings short story The Fog? Not to be confused with his
short story The Mist. Or did I confuse them? well, the one I'm talking
about is where thi research lab opens a rift into another dimension and
causes these huge man hunting spiders with really sharp webs to invade a
small town i New England. What I'm trying to get at is that the qualities
of insects make them different enough from us to make them scary, and y
adapting a few common horrioc elements together you get a great bad guy.
And I think that it's also true that it was pointed out several times in the
FASA books that Insects were just so alien that they were impossible to
understand. That makes them necesarrily eveil, There is not coexistence
with them. Thats not a judgement of them, it's just a fact of life.
Just a little defense on my favorite bad guys.
Sean
Message no. 23
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:24:08 -0500
Also eve, just to give yourself an understanding of how humanity would
view insect spirits, read Metamorphisis by Franz Kafka
Maybe not terrified as long as they stay in their own area, but when
they start to invade our territory we instictually fear them...and
want to destroy them...
Message no. 24
From: Mike Ruane <Nethicus@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 17:29:08 -0500
>I just don't like seeing animals be portrayed as the bad guys, when
>if you really want to see a species that's f*cked up the planet, take
>a look in a mirror.

Mirrors screwed up the planet? Now I know why there's the downhill slide!

Mike, TGC
Message no. 25
From: FireFly <mskarina@*****.MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:54:13 +0200
Gurth wrote:

> I personally like putting insect spirits into my adventures, and will
> continue to do so.

Forewarned is forarmed :)
And knowing Gurth, it wil doubtlessly be a BAD guy spirit, So - any
suggestions on fighting them?

....And what was that about fireflies being nasty!?

>Hell, I know where my players will be late in August 2055...

Ah! So _that's_ what you mean by being SR Guru....?
Ok, Gurth: I give up: where WILL we be late in August 2055?
(Hey, I'm ALWAYS late, so why should August 2055 be any different?)


FireFly (Nasty, am I?)
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:34:09 +0930
G'Koth of the Narn Empire wrote:
>
> Actually Eve, you wanted some cultural refernces to insects being "bad,
> wicked things" to humans? Here's a few off the top of my head...
>
> Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
> The Spider has never been a friend to humanity. It has been

In some Amerindian tribes, Spider gave fire to Man (with the help of
Coyote). (The story goes that Coyote found fire, but couldn't carry it, so
Spider spun a ball of silk, along with a handle.)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 27
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:37:32 +0930
Mike Ruane wrote:
>
> >I just don't like seeing animals be portrayed as the bad guys, when
> >if you really want to see a species that's f*cked up the planet, take
> >a look in a mirror.
>
> Mirrors screwed up the planet? Now I know why there's the downhill slide!

Well, you break enough of them, and those seven years of bad luck start
accumulating. And what with all the wars and bombing going off, I'd say a
couple of hundred mirrors are broken each day.

(Furthermore, to the poster before TGC, mankind may have screwed up the
planet (okay, we have), but we may also have prevented a new ice age that
would be more catastrophic than what we've done. Take it up privately if
you want the facts)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:24:58 +0200
> No lets not get sentimental here, the world is not all bad after all.

Nature, IM(H)O, does not have good and evil. AFAIC, that's a human invention
made up by various religious groups to keep people believe in their religion.
I don;t view insect spirits as evil or good, at least not more than humans.
As Eve pointed out, the only ones who fucked up this planet are we; but that
doesn't stop me from using (meta)humans as the bad guys in adventures, as a
matter of fact, that only makes for good bad guys...

>I mean look at all the cool stuff man has managed to practically conjure
>out of nothing.

Jani does computer science or something like that. Can you tell? :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Mr. Buzzcut sent us over to say hi to someone named Gene
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:25:04 +0200
>Forewarned is forarmed :)
>And knowing Gurth, it wil doubtlessly be a BAD guy spirit, So - any
>suggestions on fighting them?

The others should be able to tell you that... Using your brain beforehand
also helps :)

>....And what was that about fireflies being nasty!?

Bug City describes them as being pretty (don't know if that extends to you
:) *seeks cover underneath desk*), but dangerous as well.

>Ah! So _that's_ what you mean by being SR Guru....?

Insect guru :)

>Ok, Gurth: I give up: where WILL we be late in August 2055?
>(Hey, I'm ALWAYS late, so why should August 2055 be any different?)

I actually wasn't referring to you guys, I was referring to the players
(well, player_r_ actually) for whom I GM here at home. A couple months (game
time) to go before I will try to send him on a run across North America,
that will hopefully end in a certain, large city on a lake :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Mr. Buzzcut sent us over to say hi to someone named Gene
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 30
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 19:38:10 +1000
Eve Forward writes:

> Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits? Actually,
> that's not a bad idea.

FL has always wanted a Yeast totem, but everyone Thwaps him everytime he
suggests it :-)

--
Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 31
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:51:29 +0200
> > I personally like putting insect spirits into my adventures, and will
> > continue to do so.
>
> Forewarned is forarmed :)
> And knowing Gurth, it wil doubtlessly be a BAD guy spirit, So - any
> suggestions on fighting them?

How about a troll-size can of insectiside (sp?) :)

> ....And what was that about fireflies being nasty!?
>
> >Hell, I know where my players will be late in August 2055...
>
> Ah! So _that's_ what you mean by being SR Guru....?
> Ok, Gurth: I give up: where WILL we be late in August 2055?
> (Hey, I'm ALWAYS late, so why should August 2055 be any different?)

Can you say BC ? (Bug City aka Chikago)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 32
From: NIGHTFOX <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:50:44 -0700
>FL has always wanted a Yeast totem, but everyone Thwaps him everytime he
>suggests it :-)


Yeast Totem - Its the Greatest Thing since the slice of bread.

Nightfox
Message no. 33
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:25:55 -0500
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Eve Forward writes:
>
> > Sheesh.... what next? Anthrax spirits? Bubonic Plague Spirits? Actually,
> > that's not a bad idea.
>
> FL has always wanted a Yeast totem, but everyone Thwaps him everytime he
> suggests it :-)
>
> --
> Damion Milliken Nominee for the title of _Shadowrun Guru_ adm82@***.edu.au
>
> (GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
> E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
> b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
>


Does FL want to rise to the occasion *catches a flying carp between his
teeth*
Message no. 34
From: THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM <MKNABUSCH@****.ALBION.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:35:34 -0500
>Yeast Totem - Its the Greatest Thing since the slice of bread.

*argh*

I already know the first Yeast Shaman (dare I say it?) Talky the Toaster.
Ooooh. What interesting (and warped) ideas I'm now having.

Surely my players will get a rise out of this.
After all, its an honest way to make some dough, no matter how you slice it.
That is, if they aren't loaffing around.
Most likely they'll take it with the proverbial grain....
Ok, ok, enough. Just please don't wheat me for these puns.

*argh* I can't stop....


Michael
aka Harlequin
Message no. 35
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:33:26 -0600
snip
>Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler said:
>list.member.grumpy

>Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
> The Spider has never been a friend to humanity.
Actually She has been long consider Woman's friend :) Arichne the weaver
who taught man to weave, Grand Mother Spider from North American Mythos.
She's found in many of the tribes creation myth's and helps in protecting
favored warriors. She helped the Hopi by inviting them to this world. (Fly
buzzed through first to show them the way,) (The Sacred Book of the Hopi)
Spider is considered sacred to some cultures as a symbol of those who are
craftsmen.

> It has been
>portrayed as evil, wicked, and conniving, with plans far above and
>stranger than most mortals. All kinds of literature and myth refer to
>Spider this way.
Yes European history does portray spider this way.

snip

>
>Ant
> Now, Ant has never really been feared. People just don't
>understand them. What makes them move as they do? Why do they follow
>each other like they do? Why do they build their nests? How do they
>build they nests? How to they communicate? For a vast majority of
>people, Ant is a subject of wonder/fascination. And where they have been
>mentioned in literature and myth, this is typically the case.

Ant is seen in proverbs, and folktales as the common worker, the everyday man.
Remember Aesop's tales? Ants got there bad name in B-rated SFiction movies
from the 1950's. In some cultures it is ant's who are used to represent the
earth and used to help remind people who are'spirit-traveling' to come back
to there bodies. In Native American belief, ants are hard workers and help
man by telling him a day before when it will rain. (ants are sensitive to
changes in air-pressure and buld up the sand around there holes when there is
a drop in air pressure...what happens before it rains:))

>
>Roach
>
Got me on the roach, YUCKY. ICKY

>Fly
> The same thing with Fly (as with Roach). I do believe Fly has
>popped up in a couple of myth and stories, but I can't exactly recall.
>If my fuzzy, stressed out memory serves me, Fly hasn't been treated very
>well in literature.

Fly is a messanger sometimes. Some Native American and in Euro-Asian
Shamanistic belief, a fly can be a person's soul. It is either released
(the person dies) or caught and breathed back into the body. Again Fly led the
Hopi into this world through a sacred kiva.)
>
>The same sorts of attitudes and beliefs will hold true for the rest of
>the given Insect totems. We just don't understand insects; on one hand,
>they fascinate us, but on the other hand, they confuse and scare us.

butterflies are seen as souls also in both Shinto (Japanese) and several
other cultures. They are also sacred to several Goddesses. See my earlier
post on butterflies :)
snip
>While mundane insects may be ecologically sound and custom fitted to
>their environment and maybe deserve more respect (not from me though),
>you also have to remember that mundane insects are not direct analogues
>to Insect Spirits. The Insects are, in part, determined and shaped by
>our world view of insects, and so Insects are the Jungian, cultural
>archetypes we belive them to be. We believe mundane insects are a
>certain way (which may or may not be true) and so Insect Spirits reflect
>to a certain extent that belief.

Again, you are correct. It is a European-American point of view. However
I hope I pointed out that there are other beliefs. They are not beliefs
held by everyone. In one campaign we had runners trying to kill Grandma Spider.
One group of evil shaman would help, one tribe declared them (the runners)
enemies of mankind, and an enraged group of neo-pagans hindered their
progress. in the end spider helped them 'catch' several fly spirits.

We have also had a mantis-shaman in a campaign as an NPC. She was also a
kung-fu practisioner of Mantis form. Seemed perfectly natural. :)

Kay
Message no. 36
From: Kay and Pete Hanson <kidkaos@******.NET>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 1995 11:33:19 -0600
>Kay and Pete Hanson wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Butterflies are a totem for shamanistic tribes in the Amazons
>> in real life. They help lead the seeker to the 'dreamtime' or to other
worlds.
>> Some are good butterfly spirits, some are bad, depends on the color. Also
>> in South America, butterflies gather on the blood after a kill, so can
>> also represent death. Again, this is from REAL life, not SR
>>
>> Also anyone from Australia ever read up on whether the termites there are
>> important in 'dreamtime' stories? Bet they are :)
>> Kay
>
>I think you'd bet wrong... the Dreamtime animals I know of (universal to
>all tribes) are Snake, Kangaroo, and Frog. Depending on where you are,
>there's also Koala (on the east coast), Bunyip (mainly south and central
>areas), the Lightning Man (Northern regions), the 12 Sons (the first
>people), and the Rainbow Snake (more specialised version of Snake).
>
>--
> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
> are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
> Finger me for my geek code
>
>

According to The New Golden Bough By Sir James Frazer: pg.43-44
Nowhere is the theory of sympathetic magic more systematically
carried into practice for the maintenance of the food suply than in the
barren regions of Central Australia. Here tribes are divided into a number
of totem clans, each of which charged with the duty of propagating and
multiplying their totem for the good of the community by means of magical
ceremonies and incantations. The great majority of the totems are edible
animals and plants.....Thus among the Arunta the men of the witchetty grub
totem perform a series of elaborate ceremonies for multiplying the grub
which the members of the tribe use for food....(the next page describes the
ceremony if anyone is interested in reading
this e-mail and Ill type it out.)

I can't confirm with exact quotes to the termites, but I heard from on a
tape from the Winnipeg Folk Festival that there is indeed a ceremony used by
Aboriginies in finding the correct wood (hollowed by termites) for a digerydo.
They told a tale about how the first digerydo was found and a little about the
search each player must make in Dream time to find the correct piece of
wood. Again that was a few years ago, but it was told by one of the players.

As for the butterfly totem, read Carlos Castanda and/or Michael Harner's Way
of the Shaman. The other interesting folk tales and stories that can be used to
create some wonderful Magical journies and tests for shaman and mages.

Mircea Eliade, the authority on European-Asian and Northern-American
Shamanism, in his book Shamanism, published 1951, recognized the following
animals as totems or helpers: antelope, ants, bat, bear, bee, bird, boa
constrictor, bear, buffaloes, bull, cat, centaurs, chicken, cock, colt,
coyote, crow, cuckoo, deer, dog, duck, eagle, elk, emu, ermine, falcon,
fish, fly, fox, gander, goat, goose, grebe, gull, hare, hens, heron, horse,
jaguars, kingfisher, lambs, leopard, lions, lizard, mouse, osterich, otter,
owl, panther, parrots, pig, pigeon, ram, reindeer, roebuck, sea serpents,
serpents, shark, sheep, snake, sparrow, sparrow-hawk, spider, squirrel,
stag, swan, thunder bird,tiger, vulture, walrus, wildcat, wolf, worms.

It should be noted that shaman can have more than one 'totem' and many also
have plant helpers or plant 'totems.' Plants are especilly helpful for
healing, and seeking hidden knowledge...One North American Healer used one
plant which
was his totem, to heal everything, from children's illnesses to broken legs, to
figuring out what to do for his people. He said it talked to him and he
could find it blooming even in the middle of winter. To this day the 'weed'
which
has no known modern healing properties is called Joe Pye Weed. Because Joe Pye
used it for everything :)

Kay
who in real life writes for several 'folk' 'zines and magical zines. And
does storytelling, Native American History and Mythology, and 'stuff' as a
volunteer at the local schools, and with the scouts.
Message no. 37
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 17:59:51 +0200
> I already know the first Yeast Shaman (dare I say it?) Talky the Toaster.
> Ooooh. What interesting (and warped) ideas I'm now having.
>
> Surely my players will get a rise out of this.
> After all, its an honest way to make some dough, no matter how you slice it.
> That is, if they aren't loaffing around.
> Most likely they'll take it with the proverbial grain....
> Ok, ok, enough. Just please don't wheat me for these puns.

Please dont start with this crummy thread again :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 38
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 11:27:07 -0500
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, THEY ONLY WIN IF WE LET THEM wrote:

> I already know the first Yeast Shaman (dare I say it?) Talky the Toaster.
> Ooooh. What interesting (and warped) ideas I'm now having.
>
> Surely my players will get a rise out of this.
> After all, its an honest way to make some dough, no matter how you slice it.
> That is, if they aren't loaffing around.
> Most likely they'll take it with the proverbial grain....
> Ok, ok, enough. Just please don't wheat me for these puns.
>
> *argh* I can't stop....

/~~~\~~~\ \ \ \ \ /\ \~~~\ \~~~\ \ \ *
/ / / / / / / / / / / /
\ \~~~\ \ \ \~~\ \~~~ \~~~ \ \
/ / / \/\/ / / / / . .

* This modification on the "thwap" goes beyond the normal act of
hitting one with a wet carp, and instead involves a wet carp which has
been rolled in (yeah, you guessed it) bread crumbs. *grin*

-------------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@****.com> =========-------------
| "Beyond your tunnel vision reality fades |
| Like shadows into the night." -Pink Floyd |
--------========== http://www.cais.com/jdfalk/home.html ==========--------
Message no. 39
From: Keith Johnson <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 12:10:17 -0600
>> I already know the first Yeast Shaman (dare I say it?) Talky the Toaster.
>> Ooooh. What interesting (and warped) ideas I'm now having.
>>
>> Surely my players will get a rise out of this.
>> After all, its an honest way to make some dough, no matter how you slice it.
>> That is, if they aren't loaffing around.
>> Most likely they'll take it with the proverbial grain....
>> Ok, ok, enough. Just please don't wheat me for these puns.
>
> Please dont start with this crummy thread again :)
>
Why, do you find it half baked?

Keith
Message no. 40
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 13:48:57 -0500
On Fri, 31 Mar 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote: [on the subject of yeast
shamans...]

> Please dont start with this crummy thread again :)

Relax, Jani. He's just trying to get a rise out of you. :P

Marc (ducking carp)
Message no. 41
From: "<Great Czar>" <GreatCzar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit! -Reply
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 19:38:57 -0500
On march 28 Todd James Gillespie wrote:

>Even reptiles are alien to mammalian thinking. (something, I
>think FASA conveniently forgot when concocting totems.)

You really can't blame that on FASA. Blame that on Shamens and tradition. For
example, snake has a long history as healer. Note that FASA gives it a +2 to
healing spells, in additon to a few other bonuses. The others are more
obvious, just most either forget or do not know that snake has tradionally
been a healer in many societies. I don't know why, though.

In addition, in central america, I beleive it was the mayas, reptiles were a
common theme in religion. It's all a matter of familiararity. In places where
there were a large number of reptiles, they were not considered nearly as
alien as you and I would consider them.
Great Czar
Message no. 42
From: G'Koth of the Narn Regime <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 20:55:23 -0700
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> In some Amerindian tribes, Spider gave fire to Man (with the help of
> Coyote). (The story goes that Coyote found fire, but couldn't carry it, so
> Spider spun a ball of silk, along with a handle.)
>
Ah yes, I had forgotten. However, I was also focusing on Western
Culture, which is what I can claim to know a little about. And as far
as Western Culture is concerned, I still think I'm right. It obviously
differs in this instance, and may also differ in the Asian cultures, but
I really don't know.

As a matter of fact, take all my examples with the intent that I was only
refering to Western Culture.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
list.member.grumpy
Message no. 43
From: G'Koth of the Narn Regime <esj@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 21:24:56 -0700
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> FL has always wanted a Yeast totem, but everyone Thwaps him everytime he
> suggests it :-)
>
Yeah, it may be half-baked, but what I want to know about is BEER YEAST
SPIRITS!!!! Yeah, a Force 10 Carlsbergensis Lager Yeast Spirit!! The
Friend of Home Brewers everywhere!!! Yeah!!! Make your Home Brewed Beer
quicker, better, and with less hassle!! Never worry about yeast bite
again...or wait, yeast bite could be the attack. "You drink your beer
and then notice a strange aftertaste which you find rather
unappealing..." HaHa!! The Yeast Spirit strikes again!!

Oh, uh, sorry. Got a little carried away there.

Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler
list.member.grumpy

"Relax, have a homebrew!"


PS In case you are wondering, yes, I do brew my own beer. I'm something
of the BrewMaster around KAMP Student Radio...
Message no. 44
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 23:16:43 +0930
G'Koth of the Narn Regime wrote:
>
> As a matter of fact, take all my examples with the intent that I was only
> refering to Western Culture.

No worries... except, to a large degree, Shadowrun magic is cultural based.
Western magic tends to be hermetic, with some exceptions (shamanic druids
being the biggest), while shamanic magic is based on the North American
Indian culture. So when you talk about how totems (which are shamanic) are
perceived, you either talk about North Amerindian perceptions, or you
really should define the point of view.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 45
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 10:30:47 -0700
On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, G'Koth of the Narn Empire wrote:

> Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
> The Spider has never been a friend to humanity. It has been

Disagree. Lachesis/Clotho/The Weaver in Greek mythology has helped
heroes from time to time by altering their measure. A "spider" reference
from basic Western mythology, thank you.

> Erik, a.k.a. the Whistler

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 46
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:40:39 -0700
On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:

> (Furthermore, to the poster before TGC, mankind may have screwed up the
> planet (okay, we have), but we may also have prevented a new ice age that
> would be more catastrophic than what we've done. Take it up privately if
> you want the facts)

The Larry Nivens/Steven Barnes novel "Fallen Angels"? As is
anything else in Atmospheric physics, completely debatable.

> Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au

========================================================================
Adam Getchell "Invincibility is in oneself,
acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu vulnerability in the opponent."
http://instruction.ucdavis.edu/html/getchell.html
Message no. 47
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 20:59:29 -0700
Re: Ice age prevention

Uh-huh. And no doubt we've prevented lots of icky new creatures from
evolving by causing their ancestors to go extinct, and gotten rid of
some nasty potential diseases by eliminating tons of rainforest, and...
Well, I could go on. Ice ages happen. They've been happening for
a long time. But I don't recall any other incidence of a single species
managing the wholesale carnage we've acomplished. I personally don't think
that the possibility of preventing and Ice Age justifies us.
And to tie this into Shadowrun, I think the VITAS plague is
FASA's way of justifying that their game universe can still exist
and be playable that far in the future. Cutting out a sizeable portion
of the population is a good start, anyway. I approve of the game concept.

By the way, apologies to all the nice people who have, I am told, been
replying to me regarding Insect Spirits on the list; I haven't been
reading the list for several days, actually, so I missed it. Sorry.

-E
Message no. 48
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:52:24 +0930
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> > (Furthermore, to the poster before TGC, mankind may have screwed up the
> > planet (okay, we have), but we may also have prevented a new ice age that
> > would be more catastrophic than what we've done. Take it up privately if
> > you want the facts)
>
> The Larry Nivens/Steven Barnes novel "Fallen Angels"? As is
> anything else in Atmospheric physics, completely debatable.

Not atmospheric physics... nuclear physics. The Sun doesn't put out enough
neutrinos for it to be burning at full power. It is known that this happens
in cycles corresponding to the Ice Ages. The link is implied, but probably
strong.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 49
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:48:09 +0930
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 Mar 1995, G'Koth of the Narn Empire wrote:
>
> > Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
> > The Spider has never been a friend to humanity. It has been
>
> Disagree. Lachesis/Clotho/The Weaver in Greek mythology has helped
> heroes from time to time by altering their measure. A "spider" reference
> from basic Western mythology, thank you.

Fate is not a friend of Man, though... She altered things only to restore
the pattern of her web, never out of plain generousity.. Fate as depicted
by Piers Anthony isn't too much like the Greek Fate.


--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 50
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:20:18 +0200
> > Spider (despite the fact it is available to PC's [which I don't understand])
> > The Spider has never been a friend to humanity. It has been
>
> Disagree. Lachesis/Clotho/The Weaver in Greek mythology has helped
> heroes from time to time by altering their measure. A "spider" reference
> from basic Western mythology, thank you.

Only problem with that is that thge 3 fates were no spiders :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 51
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New Insect Spirit!
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:02:42 +0200
> Re: Ice age prevention
>
> Uh-huh. And no doubt we've prevented lots of icky new creatures from
> evolving by causing their ancestors to go extinct, and gotten rid of
> some nasty potential diseases by eliminating tons of rainforest, and...
> Well, I could go on. Ice ages happen. They've been happening for
> a long time. But I don't recall any other incidence of a single species
> managing the wholesale carnage we've acomplished.

I remember reading in the National Geographic about the comet theory
about the extinction of the dinosaurs, you know the one about a comet hiting
the earth and causing so much havoc with the food chain that the great
big dinos had suddenly nothing to eat. Well anyway I remember reading that
it has been estimated that this comet wiped out about 90% of all the
plant/wildlife species on earth!!! Hows that for destruction? And nature
still managed to bounce back and give us the variety we enjoy today...
I dont mean to say that its ok to make whole species extinct just because
more will evolve, what I wanted to say is that shit happens thats the
way nature works - I feel sorry for the dodo bird, but I sure wont
loose any sleep over it.

> I personally don't think
> that the possibility of preventing and Ice Age justifies us.
> And to tie this into Shadowrun, I think the VITAS plague is
> FASA's way of justifying that their game universe can still exist
> and be playable that far in the future. Cutting out a sizeable portion
> of the population is a good start, anyway. I approve of the game concept.

But who said anything about justifying us? We dont need to justify
anything ...

> By the way, apologies to all the nice people who have, I am told, been
> replying to me regarding Insect Spirits on the list; I haven't been
> reading the list for several days, actually, so I missed it. Sorry.

Does that mean I have to re-post all those flames ? :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+>++++ L+>+++ E--- N++ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about New Insect Spirit!, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!