Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:40:35 +1000

Message no. 1 S.F. Eley asked:

> How many people think
> they'd benefit from a "plotline" mailing list? The purpose would be to
> provide a forum where GM's could post information about their current
> campaigns and recent runs, and generally fill each other in on the states
> of their game worlds. This would: A.) provide folks with adventure ideas
> when they're pressed to come up with a good run; B.) create a sort of
> "world continuity" where the events in one GM's game world could be
affected
> by runs in another's; and C.) give GM's a sense of perspective in how other
> people run their games.

We would have loved this when our campaign was still running. News stories
were the start of many plots, in that wonderful campaign...

Doing this also gives the game an extra depth, obviously.

luke

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:05:04 -0500

Message no. 2 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Originally, that's what the ShadowTalk mailing list was for.

Don't make a seventh list for it. Either put it into the fictional story
of ShadowTK or put it here for commentary.

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From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 01:41:28 -0400

Message no. 3 Fearless Leader fearlessly leads:

> Originally, that's what the ShadowTalk mailing list was for.

I was under the impression that the ShadowTalk list has its own independent
storyline, constructed by characters and following its own plotlines.
That IS a useful inspiration device, and I don't wish to duplicate or
obviate that function.

(I was subscribed to ShadowTK for a short while a long time ago, but
couldn't deal with both that and the ShadowRN traffic at the same time,
so it's possible I misunderstand that list.. If so, please correct me.)

> Don't make a seventh list for it. Either put it into the fictional story
> of ShadowTK or put it here for commentary.

I think there's room for this. What I'm talking about is a list where
Gamemasters can relate their own campaigns, adventures and experiences,
without having to transmute them into ShadowTK or bog down the already-
swamped ShadowRN. Another reason for not putting it here is because some
GMs' players also read this list, and adventure information is ruined if
distributed to players prematurely.

I'm not trying to be separatist, or take over any existing functions of
any of these lists.. I just feel a more specialized forum for this sort
of thing would be useful.

(Incidentally, where did you come up with the "seventh" list figure?
Counting PLOT-D and NERPS, I thought there were only four.)

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "Theory and practice are the same in
My opinions are my opinions. | theory, but different in practice."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Jim Greenlee

From:	Justin Elliott <justin.elliott@*******.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:20:36 +1200

Message no. 4 >Originally, that's what the ShadowTalk mailing list was for.
>
>Don't make a seventh list for it. Either put it into the fictional story
>of ShadowTK or put it here for commentary.
>

I feel the ShadowTalk list has moved away from this ideal. And that this
list is busy enough as it is without widening its "subject area". I would
still be very interested if a new list was set up along the lines suggested
in the original post.

Justin Elliott
(justin.elliott@*******.otago.ac.nz)

"To know nothing of history, is to remain perpetually a child"

---Cicero

"Time is a great teacher, but unfortuneately it kills all its pupils."

---Hector Berlioz

From:	"J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 09:24:05 -0400

Message no. 5 On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Justin Elliott wrote:

> I feel the ShadowTalk list has moved away from this ideal. And that this
> list is busy enough as it is without widening its "subject area". I would
> still be very interested if a new list was set up along the lines suggested
> in the original post.

Why not use plot-d?

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@************.org> =========---------
| "They accused us of suppressing freedom of expression. |
| This was a lie and we could not let them publish it." |
| -- Nelba Blandon, Interior Ministry Director of Censorship |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 10:45:46 -0400

Message no. 6 J.F. Falk writes:

> On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, Justin Elliott wrote:
>
> > I feel the ShadowTalk list has moved away from this ideal. And that this
> > list is busy enough as it is without widening its "subject area". I
would
> > still be very interested if a new list was set up along the lines suggested
> > in the original post.
>
> Why not use plot-d?

From the ShadowTK/PLOT-D FAQ:

"7.) A. What is PLOT-D
PLOT-D is a supplemental discussion list for ShadowTalk..."

Sounds to me like PLOT-D is geared specifically toward the ShadowTK
universe, which once again is a useful resource, but isn't what I'm
talking about.

Since you and Robert are making these suggestions, I'm subscribing now to
ShadowTK and PLOT-D to see if their purposes really do match my current
intentions. I'm also examining their FAQ's. If you're right, and these
lists already serve this function and are actively being used for it, I'll
post here to recommend that everyone subscribe to PLOT-D or ShadowTK.
Otherwise, I'm inclined to favor starting a new list over extending existing
ones. People who are interested will still get the same amount of mail, and
the people who aren't interested, won't.

(Incidentally, the list home page at www.ip.net is screwed up. Both the
ShadowTK FAQ pointers point only to Part 1. I Had to enter the URL manually
to get to the second part.)

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "God is a polytheist."
Please don't blame anyone else. |

From:	"J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:04:00 -0400

Message no. 7 On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> Sounds to me like PLOT-D is geared specifically toward the ShadowTK
> universe, which once again is a useful resource, but isn't what I'm
> talking about.

Since plot-d has so little traffic, I was thinking that it could
easily be given a new purpose -- that'd also ensure that all the
Shadowrun-related mailing lists still use the same software, which helps
new people quite a bit.

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@************.org> =========---------
| "All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. |
| Therefore, all men are Socrates." -Woody Allen |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 12:22:53 -0400

Message no. 8 > On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> > Sounds to me like PLOT-D is geared specifically toward the ShadowTK
> > universe, which once again is a useful resource, but isn't what I'm
> > talking about.
>
> Since plot-d has so little traffic, I was thinking that it could
> easily be given a new purpose -- that'd also ensure that all the
> Shadowrun-related mailing lists still use the same software, which helps
> new people quite a bit.

Now THAT'S a valid point.. I'm using SmartList, which is the easiest list
server on the planet and has some other nifty features (I've customized it
to identify the list on the Subject: line), but it falls short on
sophisticated command processing and archiving. (Does anyone actually use
archives extensively?)

Question is, CAN the PLOT-D list be revamped so extensively without
bothering people? Basically what I'm talking about is giving it a whole
new direction, separate from ShadowTK. Since it can't be assumed afterwards
that the people subscribed to it will also be subscribed to ShadowTK, it
might then be much less useful (or more confusing) for THAT purpose.

Oh well. Here's what I'll do.. I think I'll create the new list, on an
experimental basis, and see if anyone actually bothers to subscribe to it
and get it moving. If so, we'll see what direction the list decides to
take.. If it's successful, I'll probably have to move it anyway, so we'll
start discussion on PLOT-D about integrating the new traffic and decide if
PLOT-D wants to do so. At that point, we'd have a much better idea of what
we're talking about than we do now.

Does that make sense? If there's an objection somebody speak up, otherwise
I'll start drawing out some guidelines.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "I wish those who unsettle you
My opinions are my opinions. | would mutilate themselves!"
Please don't blame anyone else. | - Galatians 5:12, RSV

From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 15:26:44 -0500

Message no. 9 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> Oh well. Here's what I'll do.. I think I'll create the new list, on an
> experimental basis, and see if anyone actually bothers to subscribe to it
> and get it moving. If so, we'll see what direction the list decides to
> take.. If it's successful, I'll probably have to move it anyway, so we'll
> start discussion on PLOT-D about integrating the new traffic and decide if
> PLOT-D wants to do so. At that point, we'd have a much better idea of what
> we're talking about than we do now.
>
> Does that make sense? If there's an objection somebody speak up, otherwise
> I'll start drawing out some guidelines.

I object.

Right now, there are SIX shadowrun related mailing lists. One of the few
good things about having this many lists is that all of them operate from
a central server, all with nearly the same addresses and the same
commands.

Now, you want to create a seventh list. This list will use a different
command structure, and really won't be as useable as these ones.

And you want to do this for what I see as a poor reason. If you want to
discuss plots to send your runners on, THIS is the list to do it on (and
that is defined in its original charter). Another list will just
factionalize and fractionalize the community we have here.

And if you want to collect plots together for a publication, that's what
the NERPS list is for (by charter).

And if your reason for not publishing here is so you can "surprise" your
players, what's to stop them from joinging the other list? Are you going
to censor it from certain people? It's only a freakin' game for crying
out loud. If you can't trust your players to not read your messages
relating to your plans, then you can't trust them at all and you
shouldn't be playing with them.

I can't stop you from forming a list, but I will say that I'm not going
to join another one. I have enough problems keeping up with my mail
without having to write more sorting rules for another list. The forums
exists for what you want to discuss.

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From:	"Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 15:27:47 -0500

Message no. 10 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 1 Aug 1995, J.D. Falk wrote:

> Since plot-d has so little traffic, I was thinking that it could
> easily be given a new purpose -- that'd also ensure that all the
> Shadowrun-related mailing lists still use the same software, which helps
> new people quite a bit.

Plot-D has a specific purpose, as a plot and administrative list for
Shadowtalk. That is it's only purpose.

NERPS woudl even work if the goal is to collect the plot writeups.

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\ /__ Finger for Geek Code Info <=> Finger for PGP Public Key
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\/ http://krypton.mankato.msus.edu/~hayden/Welcome.html

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From:	"Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 14:09:08 -0700

Message no. 11 Stephen writes:

>Here's what I'll do.. I think I'll create the new list, on an
>experimental basis, and see if anyone actually bothers to subscribe >to it
and get it moving. If so, we'll see what direction the list >decides to
take.. If it's successful, I'll probably have to move it >anyway, so we'll
start discussion on PLOT-D about integrating the >new traffic and decide if
PLOT-D wants to do so. At that point, )we'd have a much better idea of what
we're talking about than we do )now. Does that make sense? If there's an
objection somebody speak )up, otherwise I'll start drawing out some guidelines.
>
------
I think this is a good compromise. Establishing a list to see if there is
intrest, then modify it and Plot-D as necessary. Thank yo for your effort.

Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Breakdowns come and breakdowns go---
What are you going to do about it-
that's what I'd like to know.

-Paul Simon
*****************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet": bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
or brian-stewart@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************

From:	Paul Cummings <100532.621@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 18:53:16 EDT

Message no. 12 I think this would be a great idea. I'm starting a new campaign set in
Bug City. It would be great to have some 'live' rumours about what's
happening inside there while I'm running it.

I have limited time to bring the rest of the SR world to life. And as a
result things tend to only happen when the PCs get involved. Making it
seem that the world revolves around them.

Paul Cummings [Fife, Scotland]

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 1 Aug 1995 20:08:01 -0400

Message no. 13 In response to the new GM list proposal, Robert Hayden writes:
>
> I object.

Fair enough. Let's talk this out.

> Right now, there are SIX shadowrun related mailing lists. One of the few
> good things about having this many lists is that all of them operate from
> a central server, all with nearly the same addresses and the same
> commands.

Six? I'm only aware of four -- ShadowRN, ShadowTK, PLOT-D, and NERPS.
Which two don't I know about? I've read most of the widely advertised
FAQ's and resource lists, so if there are two other lists that are supposed
to be public resources, they're not effectively publicized.

But that's beside the point. Let's look at the four lists that are known
to be available, and which have each been recommended for my purpose at
different points (you yourself have separately recommended three of them):

SHADOWRN -- General discussion about anything having to do with Shadowrun.
This is the easiest one to extend, of course. It also carries dozens
of messages on a slow day, and is already diverse enough to drive some
people crazy. If we each started posting our campaign descriptions and
game background here, it would be a strong message thread for a few weeks,
spike traffic to 150% of average, then die down. I want more than that;
I want to create a new information resource. If we tried this on ShadowRN
people would soon be clamoring for a new list. They already are, just on
mention of the idea.
SHADOWTK -- Character dialogue in an interactive shared campaign.
Off topic. Sure, people could share their own experiences here -- if
they transmogrified them to a new fictional setting and essentially
allowed them to be rewritten. Good source of inspiration, but not the
one I'm talking about. Besides, not everyone wants to deal with the
character registration and strict posting rules on that list.
PLOT-D -- Discussion _about_ plots and intrigue in the SHADOWTK campaign.
Off topic. You said so yourself -- this list stays limited to SHADOWTK
discussion. As listowner, you have the right to make that decision.
NERPS -- Sourcebook compilation for eventual editing and publication.
Off topic. Explanation below, in response to your argument for it.

> Now, you want to create a seventh list. This list will use a different
> command structure, and really won't be as useable as these ones.

If you feel this is a problem, you're welcome to create the list yourself
and run it off the same server, or give me details about how to do so. I
would have mailed you about it, but you shot down the idea too quickly.

As it stands now, the list will be running on Majordomo, which is MUCH less
formal than Listserv and much more forgiving of user errors. Why you feel
the new list will be less usable is beyond me, as is your stand that more
lists is a Bad Thing(TM).

> And you want to do this for what I see as a poor reason. If you want to
> discuss plots to send your runners on, THIS is the list to do it on (and
> that is defined in its original charter). Another list will just
> factionalize and fractionalize the community we have here.

I don't think so.. Nobody's asking people to unsubscribe from ShadowRN, and
if they do so it'll be a mistake. The new list will NOT be carrying rules
discussions, "how does this work" questions, issues of general interest, or
anything else that currently makes this list what it is. It will be
carrying discussions of individual GMs' campaign background, descriptions of
runs or plots, modules or module reviews if anyone posts them, and other
information of relevance specifically to GM's. All without boring the
people on ShadowRN, unless they choose to subscribe to it.

Having not seen the charter, I can't comment on it. If you tell me how to
retrieve it, I will do so and read it, but I don't think the list's
subscribers should consider themselves bound by a document that isn't even
mentioned in the FAQ, except in J.D. Falk's biography.

> And if you want to collect plots together for a publication, that's what
> the NERPS list is for (by charter).

For publication.. Different purpose. I've read Foundations, and most of
the stuff in there is good stuff. But those three-paragraph adventure hooks
aren't the only things GM's want to distribute from their campaign, and once
again the bureaucracy of the NERPS lists prohibits free-flowing discussion
and easy sharing. Whether any of the stuff on the new list makes it to
NERPS is entirely at the authors' discretion.

> And if your reason for not publishing here is so you can "surprise" your
> players, what's to stop them from joinging the other list? Are you going
> to censor it from certain people? It's only a freakin' game for crying
> out loud. If you can't trust your players to not read your messages
> relating to your plans, then you can't trust them at all and you
> shouldn't be playing with them.

Of COURSE no censorship. And of course, like all games, Shadowrun is a game
built on trust. But on a list where GM's and players participate in free-
wheeling discussion, is it FAIR to expect certain people not to read bits of
campaign background that they may later be playing in? Shall we have
subject lines in ShadowRN starting with "PLAYERS DON'T READ THIS"? I don't
think so.. I think it's more appropriate to move such background discussion
to a separate forum, and then if multiple people in the same playing group
are going to read it and incorporate it into their game world, it's for them
to resolve.

Regardless of who subscribes, the new list will be very much centered on
GM's, and its name reflects it.

> I can't stop you from forming a list, but I will say that I'm not going
> to join another one. I have enough problems keeping up with my mail
> without having to write more sorting rules for another list. The forums
> exists for what you want to discuss.

I'm sorry that you do not feel inclined to participate, but that is your
business. Your mail-sorting difficulties are your problem, and not an
argument against forming the list. (Majordomo can tag subject lines anyway;
mail from the list is instantly recognizable from any mail reader.) Forums
exist for _related_ discussion to what I want to discuss, but I don't feel
any of them are completely appropriate.

ANYWAY.

The Gamemaster list, ShadowGM, is now up and running. To subscribe, send
mail to majordomo@****.residence.gatech.edu with "subscribe shadowgm" in the
message body. I will have a purpose statement and FAQ ready within a day or
two; when I finish it, I will post it to both lists.

(Apologies to all if the name seems pretentious, but I didn't know what else
to call it.. Anything with "plot" in the name would get confused with the
existing PLOT-D.)

More details to follow; in the meantime, feel free to subscribe and get the
ball rolling.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| Gray's Corollary to Clarke's Theorem:
My opinions are my opinions. | "Any technology that is distinguishable
Please don't blame anyone else. | from magic is insufficiently advanced."

From:	Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Wed, 2 Aug 1995 01:13:16 GMT

Message no. 14 In message <950801225315_100532.621_HHN41-1@**********.COM>
SHADOWRN@*****.nic.surfnet.nl writes:
> I think this would be a great idea. I'm starting a new campaign set in
> Bug City. It would be great to have some 'live' rumours about what's
> happening inside there while I'm running it.
>
> I have limited time to bring the rest of the SR world to life. And as a
> result things tend to only happen when the PCs get involved. Making it
> seem that the world revolves around them.

SPOILER SPACE FOLLOWS FOR ANY OF PAUL CUMMINGS' PLAYERS

Thank you. Sorry, for everyone else who is still with me.

I forget the title, but there was an excellent BBC drama a few months ago
set in a future Germany plagued by illegal immigration from a massive
civil war in Europe.

There was "EUPol", a big-budget high-ticket police force, keeping the
immigrants at bay in a containment zone against the border. The hero,
investigating a gruesome murder (the only clue was the victim had a
bundle of postcards from various unknown people, saying "We made it, we're
fine") ended up following a "Russian Mafia" (insert evil criminal of
choice,
in my game Seoulpa) escape route.

All seemed well until they reached a rest stop...where they were told to
fill out postcards for their relatives to say they had arrived.

Shades of Auschwitz, anyone? Of course the criminals were simply killing the
immigrants and stealing everything of value they had. Whether EUPol were in
on it, passively glad the immigration problem was less severe, or horrified
at this mass murder (a shot of a vast cave full of corpses still haunts me,
and it was only a TV drama) was left to the viewer.

The possibilities for either Denver or Chicago are left for the GM to explore.
Further details by E-mail if necessary.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:17:45 +1000

Message no. 15 On the topic of this new list that's recently started, I don't think it's
such a good idea. Sure, it's not such a bad idea either, but I don't think
it's neccessary. I feel that much of what you propose for the new list to
cover is already quite adequately covered by this list.

> It will be carrying discussions of individual GMs' campaign
> background, descriptions of runs or plots, modules or module reviews
> if anyone posts them, and other information of relevance
> specifically to GM's.

I've been on ShadowRN for around a year and a half now, and I've seen plenty
of this type of discussion going on. Not continuously, sure, but there's
been a significant amount of it. I also highly appreciate the players input
on these exact same topics that we get here too. Many a time the input of
other players helps me more than other GM's, as it lets me know what players
want. I think by limiting (or near so) the list to GM's, one loses a lot of
valuable input that would otherwise be gleaned from experienced players.

> The new list will NOT be carrying rules discussions, "how does this work"
> questions, issues of general interest, or anything else that currently makes
> this list what it is.

I would think that things such as rules questions are quite pertinent to
GM's. My personal view is that such a list will be unsuccessful, that it'll
start off and then die off. I'd say that quite a few people will think
"cool, a mailing list devoted to runs and stuff. Sounds like a good thing to
subscribe to to get ideas for my campaign." And that you'll end up with many
people subscribed who never have any intention of posting anything, and just
plan to parasite things others post. I really don't think a mailing list
which is only going to duplicate something already in existance is valid.
About the only reason for creating it that I can see is to reduce the load
of the specified topics from ShadowRN (which does, admittedly, have a high
throughput of messages). And I don't think that's a good enough reason.

However, I sincerly hope to be proved wrong, and only time shall tell.

PS I've subscribed, but I'll be pushing it to get the time to post anything
(I don't reply to half of what I'd like to on ShadowRN as it is) [guess I'm
one of the aforementioned 'parasites' eh? <grin>]. I hope you'll keep us
(ShadowRN) posted on the events of the new list though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

From:	"S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Fri, 4 Aug 1995 12:00:41 -0400

Message no. 16 Damion Milliken writes:

> On the topic of this new list that's recently started, I don't think it's
> such a good idea. Sure, it's not such a bad idea either, but I don't think
> it's neccessary. I feel that much of what you propose for the new list to
> cover is already quite adequately covered by this list.

In the few days since it's been created, I've been watching both lists, and
I'm starting to see what you mean. A lot of the new threads that have
started here in the past few days have been discussions of the sort that I
wanted the new list for. (What makes a good 'snap run?' How do people play
Harlequin? Which published adventures do you need sourcebooks for, and does
Double Eclipse suck, or what?)

I still think these topics would be very appropriate on the ShadowGM list,
and I'd love to see them there. Of course, Robert would slam me if I
proposed moving them, and rightfully so. They're NOT off-topic here, and
more people read ShadowRN. I'd prefer to see it on ShadowGM because it's
tailor-made for such stuff, but other people need to decide to use the list
for it.

> [...] I think by limiting (or near so) the list to GM's, one loses a lot of
> valuable input that would otherwise be gleaned from experienced players.

True, BUT. The purpose statement for the new list specifically states that
players are welcome to join.. They just do it with conscious knowledge that
they're joining a list full of spoilers, and accordingly should talk about
it with their GM, if he/she reads it. It's _intended_ for Gamemasters, but
I hold no illusions that it will be limited to GM's, and besides, I think
most GM's have also been (or still are) players as well.

> I would think that things such as rules questions are quite pertinent to
> GM's. My personal view is that such a list will be unsuccessful, that it'll
> start off and then die off.

Maybe.. It depends on how people use it, and how often. If it turns out
not to have traffic after a few weeks, I'll consider the experiment a
failure and reincorporate any leftover threads into ShadowRN. I don't have
a high personal stake in this; I just did it to see if it would work.

> I'd say that quite a few people will think
> "cool, a mailing list devoted to runs and stuff. Sounds like a good thing to
> subscribe to to get ideas for my campaign." And that you'll end up with many
> people subscribed who never have any intention of posting anything, and just
> plan to parasite things others post.

I grabbed the subscriber listing for ShadowRN the other day.. There are
just over 240 non-concealed subscribers. How many people post? Several
dozen. How many post on a regular basis? Maybe twenty. It's an effect
you'll find on any communication forum anywhere on the Internet.. Lurkers
ALWAYS outnumber loudmouths. I wouldn't call it "parasitism," and I don't
think it's highly negative if some people DON'T post. If nobody does, it's
a dead list; if everyone does all the time, it's total chaos.

> However, I sincerly hope to be proved wrong, and only time shall tell.

As I said, I see it as an experiment. If it works, I'll feel good about it.
If it doesn't, I won't feel bad; we'll know, and that's useful.

> PS I've subscribed, but I'll be pushing it to get the time to post anything
> (I don't reply to half of what I'd like to on ShadowRN as it is) [guess I'm
> one of the aforementioned 'parasites' eh? <grin>]. I hope you'll keep us
> (ShadowRN) posted on the events of the new list though.

There's a digest version now ('subscribe shadowgm-digest' instead of
'subscribe shadowgm') and I'm working on archiving it to a Web page.
So far we've had a Seattle newsfax and some NPC descriptions posted.. I've
got a review of _Bottled Demon_ being written in the other window, which
I'll be posting shortly. There are 23 subscribers right now.. Mostly I
think everyone's just waiting to see who else will start the discussions.
>8->

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "I think, therefore I am.
Please don't blame anyone else. | Worse things could happen."

From:	Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Mon, 7 Aug 1995 18:31:52 -0400

Message no. 17 From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
>I grabbed the subscriber listing for ShadowRN the other day.. There are
>just over 240 non-concealed subscribers. How many people post? Several
>dozen. How many post on a regular basis? Maybe twenty. It's an effect
>you'll find on any communication forum anywhere on the Internet.. Lurkers
>ALWAYS outnumber loudmouths. I wouldn't call it "parasitism," and I don't
>think it's highly negative if some people DON'T post. If nobody does, it's
>a dead list; if everyone does all the time, it's total chaos.

Well, I might be a little late on this, but I was away all week and have
been working for probably four hours today cleaning up my E-mail.

Alot more people post regularly than you would think, I have just read my
mail for a week, and it seems to me that there are probably 50 or so people
who post on this list regularly.

As far as lurking goes, I am what you would call a lurker. Most of the
reason I don't post is that I have nothing important to say. I was
introduced to shadowrun recently, and haven't even played the game yet.
But, eventually I will get a game running, and when I do, I will get more
experience and be able to share my ideas and thoughts as much as the rest of
you "loudmouths" :-)

But until then, I like getting ideas and thoughts from this list and
occasionaly I do post something, when I feel I have something worthwhile
to contribute. However, when I do write, it always seems to end up being
a long post, as this one seems to be now....oh, well :)

Also, some people I have noticed SHOULD keep their mouths closed sometimes,
since they can't keep control of what is coming out of it.

My .02
>>>>>>> Nate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
| Geek Code: GCS d- H s:-(+:-) a-->? C++++ U->++++ P+>++++ L>++ E--- |
| W+ N? K? W--- O? M-- V+>- PS Y+ PGP? t+++(-) 5++ X+ R++ tv+ DI? D++ |
| G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| Never underestimate the power of the Dork side. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
...At least, I think there are other people here...

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:33:23 +0200

Message no. 18 >Alot more people post regularly than you would think, I have just read my
>mail for a week, and it seems to me that there are probably 50 or so people
>who post on this list regularly.

One thing I've found hard is estimating how many people regularly post... Of
course you start recognizing names and all, but how many is very hard to tell :)

>As far as lurking goes, I am what you would call a lurker. Most of the
>reason I don't post is that I have nothing important to say.

Neither do I, but that doesn't stop me from posting ;)

Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Wicked mental dope
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)

From:	Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:12:13 -0400

Message no. 19 From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>>As far as lurking goes, I am what you would call a lurker. Most of the
>>reason I don't post is that I have nothing important to say.
>
>Neither do I, but that doesn't stop me from posting ;)
>

Yeah, but I feel like that if I don't say something that is important to
everyone on this list, I will get my butt flamed off. I know that this is
probably not true, but it does keep me quiet most of the time (and that's
unusual!)

Oh, and with the smartlink on FA, you don't hit people between where you
are walking. No stray shots at all. (SRII, pg. 93 :)

>>>>>> Nate, the infamous Lurker
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| |
| Geek Code: GCS d- H s:-(+:-) a-->? C++++ U->++++ P+>++++ L>++ E--- |
| W+ N? K? W--- O? M-- V+>- PS Y+ PGP? t+++(-) 5++ X+ R++ tv+ DI? D++ |
| G++ e>++ h!>++ !r y? Vax/VMS Guru (sad, but true) |
| |
| Never underestimate the power of the Dork side. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, my opinions are the same as most of the other people here...
...At least, I think there are other people here...

From:	"Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New list?
Date:	Tue, 8 Aug 1995 09:36:28 -0700

Message no. 20 >
> One thing I've found hard is estimating how many people regularly post... Of
> course you start recognizing names and all, but how many is very hard to tell :)
>
> >As far as lurking goes, I am what you would call a lurker. Most of the
> >reason I don't post is that I have nothing important to say.
>
> Neither do I, but that doesn't stop me from posting ;)
>

I agree, all of you out there who don't post regularly speak up! If you
don't have anything important to say, say something funny, if not that go
ahead post something unimportant. If you are afraid to post to the list
Email me personally <bugge@********.edu> and I'll post it for you.

lets hear from the lurkers, if for no better reason than I want to read
someone's mindless blather besides my own.

-hey it Stopped raining!-
Steve

From:	Nathan Saunders <nsaunders@***************.CO.UK>
Subject:	New List
Date:	Fri, 20 Oct 1995 20:31:23 +0100

Message no. 21 Hi Guys

Can someone please post the new list address we are gonna have to subscribe
to before we lose this one.

Thanks.
Nathan nsaunders@***************.co.uk

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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PGP- t++@ 5+++ X+++ R++ tv++ b++++>$ DI+ D++ G++ e+ h(+) !r y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.NB.CA>
Subject:	New list
Date:	Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:02:22 -0400

Message no. 22 Hmmm....I can't send to the new list. I get "Undeliverable Mail"
and then this message:

Your message was not delivered because the DNS records for the
destination computer could not be found. Carefully check that
the address was spelled correctly, and try sending it again if
there were any mistakes.

It is also possible that a network problem caused this situation,
so if you are sure the address is correct you might want to try to
send it again. If the problem continues, contact your friendly
system administrator.

Host lists.html.com not found

The following recipients did not receive this message:

<shadowrn@*****.html.com>

What's the problem? I'm not unsubscribed, 'cause I still get
what others write (I think).

Thanks ahead of time,
Scott
-----------------------------------------------------
"Fragile, timid, with natural good manners,
he was, however, better suited for war than
for government."
_One Hundred Years Of Solitude_
Gabriel Garcia Marquez

From:	David Hayes <rook@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: New list
Date:	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 03:06:21 -0800

Message no. 23 > Host lists.html.com not found
>
>The following recipients did not receive this message:
>
> <shadowrn@*****.html.com>
> What's the problem? I'm not unsubscribed, 'cause I still get
>what others write (I think).
>
>Thanks ahead of time,
>Scott

scott, i am having the same problem, but up until now i was recieving
mail ifne.
-----------------------------------------------
rook aka
k. david hayes
rook@***.net
-----------------------------------------------
managing editor
ouc phoenix, kelowna b.c.
phoenix@******.okanagan.bc.ca
-----------------------------------------------
"ok, i luv you buh-bye"
mindy-animaniacs
-----------------------------------------------

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: New list
Date:	Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:59:07 -0500

Message no. 24 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:02 AM 2/1/99 -0400, Scott wrote:
> Hmmm....I can't send to the new list. I get "Undeliverable Mail"
>and then this message:
>
>Your message was not delivered because the DNS records for the
>destination computer could not be found.

<<Snip>>

> What's the problem? I'm not unsubscribed, 'cause I still get
>what others write (I think).

Alright. How did you subscribe in the first place? Did you send in an
email from the same place that you're using now? Or did you use the
website form?

And the big question: Did you follow that set of instructons that
someone had posted, about changing certain settings on your computer,
in order to subscribe, and have you since changed those settings back?

Today's internet lesson: internet routers don't give a damn about
human readable addresses, like lists.html.com. To the computers, the
only things that count as an "internet address" are a long sequence of
numbers.

To keep things simple for the users, a system of "Domain Names" was
put in place. Whenever you put in a human readable domain name into
the computer, no matter if it's in an email or into a web browser or
anything else, that name has to be looked up in the DNS tables to find
the corisponding numerical address, much the same way someone would
look up a pizza joint in the phone book.

What the problem is, is that "lists.html.com" is a newly opened pizza
joint, and because of that, the listing isn't in everybody's "phone
book" yet. The "new phone books" are delivered across the net
automatically, however this process takes a few days to reach
everyone.

In your particular case Scott, somewhere along the chain of
mailservers between you and the list, someone's "phone book" doesn't
have a listing for "lists.html.com". However, everyone's "phone book"
has a listing for nbnet.nb.ca, which is why the listmail can find it's
way to you just fine.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Scott Wheelock <iscottw@*****.NB.CA>
Subject:	Re: New list
Date:	Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:51:31 -0400

Message no. 25 At 10:59 AM 2/2/1999 -0500, Paul Gettle wrote:

<Snip!>

>In your particular case Scott, somewhere along the chain of
>mailservers between you and the list, someone's "phone book" doesn't
>have a listing for "lists.html.com". However, everyone's "phone
book"
>has a listing for nbnet.nb.ca, which is why the listmail can find it's
>way to you just fine.

That was a heck of an explanation. Thank you very much, you've
pretty much cleared that up for me. Now, if only this gets through...

Scott
-----------------------------------------------------
"Fragile, timid, with natural good manners,
he was, however, better suited for war than
for government."
_One Hundred Years Of Solitude_
Gabriel Garcia Marquez

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