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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:39:11 +0200
According to Micheal Feeney, at 15:00 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> I think it has to do with a psychological thing. Since its a fantasy game
> they want to play something fantastic, rather than just another 'mundane'
> human. Elves would be the first choice because of their close apperance to
> humans (being near the same hight, etc, but their skinny... who wouldnt want
> to be skinny, given the current facination with physical fitness that has gone
> on for the last 15 years or so?

Hey, I _am_ skinny (right, Jett? :) but that doesn't mean I want to be.
(Or don't want to be, for that matter -- I'm actually completely
indifferent to it.)

> and you tend to hear about elves more often
> than other "non-humans". Personally, though, I got out of playing
non-humans
> back in my D&D days because they were limited in the upper level they could
> achieve, while humans were not.

One of the stupid little rules in AD&D, IMHO. In SR, though, there are no
such limits, with the possible exception of the new Karma Pool rules.

> The same thing applys to when everyone wants to play a street sam. Everyone
> remembers Ahhhhnold as the Terminator from those movies as the same name, and
> Street Sam's are the closest thing to him in the game.

Yep. Although I've seen quite a lot of gamers immediately choose elf
magicians. Actually I often recommend street sam types to new players,
because they're easy to play -- all you have to learn are the basic combat
rules, whereas for a mage, decker, or rigger you also have to know the
magic/decking/vehicle rules, which adds extra complexity to the game. Much
the same reason as why new players to AD&D usually play Fighters.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:39:12 +0200
According to Anjo Verde, at 23:32 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Perhaps, but elves have kind of been overdone, just like dragons,
> though in a different way. Even if you stop considering the SR-verse,
> where they are drop-dead gorgeous, have the coolest magicks, are
> filthy rich and sometimes even immortal, elves always come first.
> Tolkien made them into the coolest kids on the blocks and they've
> been on a roll since then. Taking this into account, who wouldn't want
> to be one.
> It's as simple as that.

I'm not saying I don't know why they do it, it's just that I would like to
meet someone wanting to play SR who _didn't_ show this behavior. That
hasn't really happened in recent years, with the exception of one or two
players who were (almost) completely new to RPGs in general. Most people
who have played RPGs in my area seem to go for elves without giving th
choice a second thought.

So I make it a point to explain that elves aren't like they are in AD&D or
Tolkien's stories -- they're just like everyone else but with pointed
ears.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:49:36 -0500
----------
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>
> So I make it a point to explain that elves aren't like they are in AD&D
or
> Tolkien's stories -- they're just like everyone else but with pointed
> ears.

For now. I think its going to come as a shock to most of the world once
the first elf dies of old age (some 300 years down the line... to put that
in perspective, that's longer than there has been a USA, and only a few
decades less than we've had a settlement at Jamestown).
Message no. 4
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:02:21 -0400
At 11:39 AM 9/18/98 +0200, you wrote:
>
>So I make it a point to explain that elves aren't like they are in AD&D or
>Tolkien's stories -- they're just like everyone else but with pointed
>ears.
>--
>Gurth@******.nl

... Yeah, I like to go out at night an exercise my just-like-everyone-else
natural low-light vision while sneaking about with my
just-like-everyone-else inhuman dexterity. :)


(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 5
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:29:56 -0400
Gurth didst sayeth:

>I'm not saying I don't know why they do it, it's just that I would like to
>meet someone wanting to play SR who _didn't_ show this behavior. That
>hasn't really happened in recent years, with the exception of one or two
>players who were (almost) completely new to RPGs in general. Most people
>who have played RPGs in my area seem to go for elves without giving th
>choice a second thought.


After reading much of this thread, I think I'm firmly in the minority here.
It's true that my current primary character is an elf, but my first
experience with SR, way back in 1st Ed in high school, was playing a human
mage with a little bit of chrome. The weird part was that the entire group
were human. Part of this was the large number of human archetypes, but most
of it was just that none of us wanted to play a metahuman. We were also
running a Rifts campaign, and that was where we got out our weirdness and
destructive impulses.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 6
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:54:40 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Duncan McNeill-Burton wrote:

(snip)

>
> After reading much of this thread, I think I'm firmly in the minority here.
> It's true that my current primary character is an elf, but my first
> experience with SR, way back in 1st Ed in high school, was playing a human
> mage with a little bit of chrome. The weird part was that the entire group
> were human. Part of this was the large number of human archetypes, but most
> of it was just that none of us wanted to play a metahuman. We were also
> running a Rifts campaign, and that was where we got out our weirdness and
> destructive impulses.
>

Oh good. I was feeling distinctly out-numbered in my preference for
humans. I've never played an elf in Shadowrun. All my characters have been
human with one exception (we tried out a free spirit as a PC, but that
didn't last too long - however, even she was pretending to be human). In
my current group, every one is human. In fact other than a few very short
lived characters (my regular PC is in the hospital, can I play a dwarf
enchantor/ shapechanger for the next session until he heals?) I son't
think we have had any non-human characters other than one munchy troll
named Runner (you may remember him from the DUMB THINGS thread).

I just feel that humans are inherently more flexable and easier to play
well, so while I may eventually get around to playing with the other
races, I think humans will remain the strong frontrunner for race among
our group.


- Kama
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:36:41 +0200
According to Nexx, at 8:49 on 18 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> > So I make it a point to explain that elves aren't like they are in AD&D or
> > Tolkien's stories -- they're just like everyone else but with pointed
> > ears.
>
> For now. I think its going to come as a shock to most of the world once
> the first elf dies of old age (some 300 years down the line...

Yes, but that still only makes them humans with pointed ears and an
exceptionally long lifespan. What I really meant was that your average
typical elf in SR _behaves_ just like humans do -- they want a well-paid
job, a nice house, a family, and all that other crap everyone else wants.
They don't dance around the woods playing harps and shooting arrows at
intruders. They also don't all go around seeing themselves as the bestest
race on the planet.

(That's IMHO where most fantasy RPGs become unrealistic -- every member of
a given race tends to behave in much the same way, whereas IRL where
cultures meet you end up with a mix of thoe cultures.)

> to put that
> in perspective, that's longer than there has been a USA, and only a few
> decades less than we've had a settlement at Jamestown).

So? I would be able see a 14th-century church from my window if those
houses weren't in the way... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:27:04 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Micheal Feeney, at 15:00 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street was...
>
> > I think it has to do with a psychological thing. Since its a fantasy game
> > they want to play something fantastic, rather than just another 'mundane'
> > human. Elves would be the first choice because of their close apperance to
> > humans (being near the same hight, etc, but their skinny... who wouldnt want
> > to be skinny, given the current facination with physical fitness that has gone
> > on for the last 15 years or so?
>
> Hey, I _am_ skinny (right, Jett? :) but that doesn't mean I want to be.
> (Or don't want to be, for that matter -- I'm actually completely
> indifferent to it.)

Hehe...Gurth is quite skinny. Reminds me of my friend Dave (Dave's 6'0"
and MAYBE 130lbs. And that's soaking wet). Except I think Gurth is even
thinner.

I don't tend to play elves because of a fascination with being thin
(which I don't have: I'm pretty heavy, and like Gurth am fairly
indifferent about it), nor do I play a lot of trolls and dwarves because
they're closer my body type. I play whichever metatype seems to best
suit the character's background and tendancies.
Although Gurth is right: it is fantasy. I do enjoy characters with
superhuman strength. If I could have some sort of "superpower" (this
going back to my superhero comic-book days), it would probably be super
strength. For some reason, that fascinates me more than being really
tough or fast. I guess because of the interesting RP involved...I mean,
if you're strong enough to bend steel bars, think of the awkwardness of
turning faucets and having them break off in your hand, trying to shake
someone's hand without crushing it, etc. And also, some cool stuff like
being able to lift on end of a car to prove a point, or carrying your
Harley under your arm...


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm
Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:28:29 +0200
According to Jett, at 16:27 on 19 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Hehe...Gurth is quite skinny. Reminds me of my friend Dave (Dave's 6'0"
> and MAYBE 130lbs. And that's soaking wet). Except I think Gurth is even
> thinner.

I'm about 1.78 and slightly over 50 kilos, IIRC.

> I don't tend to play elves because of a fascination with being thin

I think it more has to do with wanting to play a beautiful person (as
elves are generally perceived to be) than with being thin per se. Often,
thin = beautiful in our culture, though, so elves are usually thought of
as thin. OTOH these same players then assign 1 point to Charisma even
though they want a beautiful character. IMHO you likely end up with a
character like these "supermodels" who are everywhere on TV nowadays
(about half of whom I keep wondering why everybody seems to think they're
so pretty, but that's beside the point).

> (which I don't have: I'm pretty heavy, and like Gurth am fairly
> indifferent about it)

The best way, IMHO.

> Although Gurth is right: it is fantasy. I do enjoy characters with
> superhuman strength. If I could have some sort of "superpower" (this
> going back to my superhero comic-book days), it would probably be super
> strength. For some reason, that fascinates me more than being really
> tough or fast. I guess because of the interesting RP involved...I mean,
> if you're strong enough to bend steel bars, think of the awkwardness of
> turning faucets and having them break off in your hand, trying to shake
> someone's hand without crushing it, etc. And also, some cool stuff like
> being able to lift on end of a car to prove a point, or carrying your
> Harley under your arm...

I like my characters to be able to do things I can't do IRL -- that's half
the point of roleplaying, IMO -- but I don't try to stick to any
particular "theme" for my characters, except some things I want to try to
suppress because they tend to pop up with every PC I play.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:20:45 -0400
Gurth wrote:

> I think it more has to do with wanting to play a beautiful person (as
> elves are generally perceived to be) than with being thin per se. Often,
> thin = beautiful in our culture, though, so elves are usually thought of
> as thin. OTOH these same players then assign 1 point to Charisma even
> though they want a beautiful character. IMHO you likely end up with a
> character like these "supermodels" who are everywhere on TV nowadays
> (about half of whom I keep wondering why everybody seems to think they're
> so pretty, but that's beside the point).

As was pointed out in another post, also, beauty<>charisma. I have a
dwarf mechanic with a charisma of 5. is he attractive? Does he radiate
sex appeal? Hell no. But everyone likes "Uncle Murray" cause he's just
such a gosh darn neat guy to be around. :)
I wonder just how pleasant some of these supermodels are. Geez...they're
half-starved, on their feet all day, have to wear 6-inch high heels...I
bet they're real cranky all the time.


> I like my characters to be able to do things I can't do IRL -- that's half
> the point of roleplaying, IMO -- but I don't try to stick to any
> particular "theme" for my characters, except some things I want to try to
> suppress because they tend to pop up with every PC I play.
>
True. Variety being the spice of life and all. I have a few tendancies
that show up in most of my characters that I attempt to curb. Just
pointing out one particular preference. But roleplaying is fantasy and
escapism. So why debate it? Just enjoy it! :P

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Further Reading

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