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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 06:22:41 -0500
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:20:04 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
<SNIP>
>Not related to cons, but does anyone else experience the situation where
>they can predict at least half the choices new players make when
designing
>their first character? Elf, good combat skills, elf, sword, elf, magic
>user, elf, high "necessary" attributes, elf... Even people with RPG
>experience seem to do this a lot :/
>
>I've got a bunch of ready-made characters in the folder with my players'
>characters, which I use for a quick start when someone new joins the
game.
>I attempt to make them a bit different than what they would create, just
>to try and get rid of the attitude before they get a chance to express
it.
>(Changes are allowed, but not changes to elf "just because.")
>
>Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against elven PCs, but I do
have
>something against playing elves and nothing else.
<SNIP Sig>

Well, I like playing elves. In any RPG system that allows elves, I try
to play some. That's not to say that I play nothing except elves. My
current "stable" of Shadowrun characters includes 2 elves, an ork, and a
dwarf (PhysMage, Otaku, Rigger, and Moon Druid respectively.).

Let's my groups players' characters include (not counting mine) an elf, 3
humans, and a troll (Street sam, Sniper,
really-useful-guy-with-social-skills, mage, and street muscle,
respectively.).

Does that count as nice variety?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 2
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:48:49 -0400
D. Ghost wrote:
> Well, I like playing elves. In any RPG system that allows elves, I try
> to play some. That's not to say that I play nothing except elves. My
> current "stable" of Shadowrun characters includes 2 elves, an ork, and a
> dwarf (PhysMage, Otaku, Rigger, and Moon Druid respectively.).
>

Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in, but
have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what percentage
of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.

--Sean
Message no. 3
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:01:25 -0400
At 08:48 AM 9/17/98 -0400, Sean McCrohan wrote:

> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in,
but
>have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what percentage
>of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
>common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
>'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
>playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
>for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
>physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
>name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
>(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
>'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.

I generally see a 50% meta-human ratio, sometimes leaning more towards
humans. I think that's not too bad, what's the meta-human ratio in the
world? Isn't it 25% (1 meta in group of 4)? In the SR2 book for the
reasoning behind more metas was some statement that meta's are more likely
to be in the shadows because of racism and such. So, I think my ratio is
ok. I never require any sort of quata. It just happens to work out almost
all the time.
I haven't had any being anything "special" in my group, including
meta-varients. I would allow them, ONLY under specific circumstances. I'd
really have to make sure that the person playing that character could
really do it. For example, the "flaw" of most of the meta-varients is that
they are weird and people will not like them...they'd better play this
or...well...they just better play it. (:
I'd probably let people play, Otaku, meta-varients, and a physical mage (if
I had the awakenings book), but I generally have my games low key. I
encourange non-power characters I guess, and allowing someone to play a
shape changer would probably just unbalance my game.


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 4
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:07:50 +1000
Sean McCrohan said:
> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in,
but
>have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what
percentage
>of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
>common)?

Hmmm... About half of ours are human, perhaps more, especially in the past
few months. Maybe as many as 80%. Of the most popular metatypes, elves are
easily #1. There's been a few dwarves and trolls mixed in as well, but
almost no orcs. (orks? I forget.)

>Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
>'the weird stuff'?

Almost all of ours are open to wierd stuff, but only one or maybe two per
grfoup of characters is allowed, and usually there's less. (Weird, once-off
campaigns aside, however. We generally go wild and have vampires, free
spirits, otaku, shape changers, cyberzombies etc according to what each
player feels like playing in those games, which don't happen very often -
they usually come down to some huge combat slugfest, and while I don't mind
them sometimes, they get a little repetitive and others in the group hate
combat on the whole.)

[snip]

>name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
>(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
>'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.


A 'bit'??? More like lots and lots and lots... :) I'm an avid fan of AD&D
(don't bother, I don't care), but a Shadowrun game with heaps of weird
things in it reminds me of AD&D in the 21st century, and it's not the place
for it.

Slipspeed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:15:49 -0400
Slipspeed wrote:
> Sean wrote:
> >name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
> >(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
> >'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.
>
> A 'bit'??? More like lots and lots and lots... :) I'm an avid fan of AD&D
> (don't bother, I don't care), but a Shadowrun game with heaps of weird
> things in it reminds me of AD&D in the 21st century, and it's not the place
> for it.

Yes, well. I was trying to be diplomatic :)

--Sean
Message no. 6
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:42:08 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

->On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:20:04 +0200 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
-><SNIP>
->>Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against elven PCs, but I do
->>have something against playing elves and nothing else.
-><SNIP Sig>
->
->Well, I like playing elves. In any RPG system that allows elves, I try
->to play some. That's not to say that I play nothing except elves. My
->current "stable" of Shadowrun characters includes 2 elves, an ork, and a
->dwarf (PhysMage, Otaku, Rigger, and Moon Druid respectively.).

Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman, and
Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.

->Let's my groups players' characters include (not counting mine) an elf, 3
->humans, and a troll (Street sam, Sniper,
->really-useful-guy-with-social-skills, mage, and street muscle,
->respectively.).
->
->Does that count as nice variety?

More than I usually put together. I've played all the PC races
but a Dwarf (6'5", hard to get into character) and the ones from SRComp.
I predominantly play humans, nearly exclusively. I'll occasionally play
an Ork or Troll, an Elf if the whole party is Street Sammies (because
they'll need a social individual).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 7
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:51:46 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

-> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in, but
->have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what percentage
->of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
->common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
->'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
->playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
->for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
->physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
->name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
->(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
->'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.

For demographics purposes, I create PCs who are:
89% Human
1% Dwarf (I make them for friends)
2% Ork
5% Trolls (Mostly for friends, occasionally for me)
2% Elf (Also, mostly for friends)
1% Other (Usually Night ones for a particular friend of mine who loves
Drow in AD&D)

Please note, this is not ONE PC who is these percentages but
several characters... (To head off the smart-asses before they try) ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 8
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:06:46 -0400
At 08:48 AM 9/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in,
but
>have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what=
percentage
>of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
>common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up=
to
>'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
>playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
>for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
>physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
>name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
>(campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
>'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.
>
> --Sean

When I GM the Metatype is (generally as follows):
88% Human
5% Ork
5% Troll
1% Elf
1% Dwarf

Players just (even under SR3, though a little less so) tend to gravitate
toward playing humans. When it comes to PCs, metahumans aren't all that
popular (unless they're a contact -- then they're all dwarves). As a GM I
try to slate the NPCs as close to the published census report ratios as
possible.

When I play, the metatypes I use come in this order of Preference (also
greatly depends on what the last PC I made was -- I try to play something
different):
1- Elf (70% of my characters)
2- Human (24% of my characters)
3- Dwarf (5% of my characters
4- Troll (1% of my characters)
5- Ork (none at this point)


(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:53:25 -0500
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 8:33 AM

>Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
>use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
>and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.

Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans under the
game rules.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:25:37 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
->Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 8:33 AM
->
->>Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
->>use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
->>and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.
->
->Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans under the
->game rules.

Druids: Predominantly of English origin, magic tied strongly to
magical stone circles, limited fetishes (sickle & mistletoe), enchanting
tied to only one kind of kit, which must be made by the druid, and then
only at initiation, summoned spirits last for almost 24 hours (instead of
almost 12 hours).... I believe there's more but I can't recall off the top
of my head.
Shamans: The friendly Native Americans (predominantly) we all
know and love

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 11
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:30:07 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:53 AM 9/17/98 -0500, Patrick wrote:
>>Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
>>use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
>>and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.
>
>Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans
under the
>game rules.

The functional differences between druids and shamans take up two
whole pages of Grimoire (2ed)... page 30, and page 32.

To fully requote those rules here would make for a lengthy post. To
sum up though, Druids are very shaman-like, yes, but there are enough
different rules for Druids to safely say there's a signifigant
difference between them.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:44:36 +0200
According to D. Ghost, at 6:22 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

[group details snipped]
> Does that count as nice variety?

Looks good enough to me. What I was referring to is what happens when you
ask some players about what kind of character they want to play, and they
immediately reply with, "An elf," as if those are the only characters in
existence worth playing.

Hey, I play elves myself too; my current character is an elf, evem. But I
also play orks, dwarfs, humans, or what have you when I feel like it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:00:15 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-17 13:46:45 EDT, you write:

<< Looks good enough to me. What I was referring to is what happens when you
ask some players about what kind of character they want to play, and they
immediately reply with, "An elf," as if those are the only characters in
existence worth playing. >>

I think it has to do with a psychological thing. Since its a fantasy game
they want to play something fantastic, rather than just another 'mundane'
human. Elves would be the first choice because of their close apperance to
humans (being near the same hight, etc, but their skinny... who wouldnt want
to be skinny, given the current facination with physical fitness that has gone
on for the last 15 years or so?) and you tend to hear about elves more often
than other "non-humans". Personally, though, I got out of playing non-humans
back in my D&D days because they were limited in the upper level they could
achieve, while humans were not.

The same thing applys to when everyone wants to play a street sam. Everyone
remembers Ahhhhnold as the Terminator from those movies as the same name, and
Street Sam's are the closest thing to him in the game. Myself, being a
computer type, have more of a Decker fixation myself. But I think that was
more because I understood the matrix section more readily than the magic
section.

This next game I'm geting into I'm going to be a Rigger though.
Message no. 14
From: Rick J Federle <rfederle@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:23:26 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:00:15 EDT Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 98-09-17 13:46:45 EDT, you write:
>
><< Looks good enough to me. What I was referring to is what happens
>when you
> ask some players about what kind of character they want to play, and
>they
> immediately reply with, "An elf," as if those are the only characters
>in
> existence worth playing. >>
>
Actually, it depends on the player type you are. Personally, I prefer
mages in SR and elves make very good mages. The last elf I played was an
exotic, a Night One to be specific. My first exotic and a blast to play.

[snippity, snippity, snip]

>
>The same thing applys to when everyone wants to play a street sam.
>Everyone
>remembers Ahhhhnold as the Terminator from those movies as the same
>name, and
>Street Sam's are the closest thing to him in the game. Myself, being
>a
>computer type, have more of a Decker fixation myself. But I think
>that was
>more because I understood the matrix section more readily than the
>magic
>section.
>
And I understand the magic section better than the matrix (or rigger)
section, but that's because my first couple of characters were mages.
I'm struggling my way through VR2.0 right now because I'm playing a
decker in a game.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 15
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:42:31 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/1998 7:52:15 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

> Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
> 'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
> playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
> for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
> physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
> name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
> (campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
> 'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.
>
I'll go the distance on this one. I've had anything from Humans (as my fave
character is), to several of the SRComp metavariants (Dark Elves, Oni, Nordic
Giants, and Shapers seems to be the desire, though I outlawed all shapers
actually), and have gone as far as to have had in the past Sasquoi-turned-
Bandersnatch (made dinner at the family restaurants different), Decker's-
turned-Ghosts, and of course the *ONE* guy who I let play a dragon (who hasn't
been in the game now for more than 3 years).

Right now however, Human, Troll and Elf seem to be bigger choices, though
we've got a guy playing a female dwarf who is a cybertechnician-type with a
penchant for sex (Angel says "HI" there Gurth).

Actually, now that I think about it, with the invention of the nasty potion
we've got running loose, one of the Human's is trying to convince the maker of
the potion to help him shove it down the throat of a few of the "elven
characters" that are running around.

Tempting....

-K
Message no. 16
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:04:39 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/1998 12:13:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
remo@***.NET writes:

>
> >Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
> >use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
> >and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.
>
> Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans under
the
> game rules.
>
> --
Shamanic Druids have different rules concerning the summoning of Nature
Spirits and restrictions on Enchantment. Most of this is in either the London
Sourcebook (orig) or in the Grimoire II.

-K
Message no. 17
From: Anjo Verde <Chant_Obscur@*******.FR>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:32:55 +0200
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Date : jeudi 17 septembre 1998 19:46
Objet : Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)

<Snip>
>What I was referring to is what happens when you ask some players
>about what kind of character they want to play, and they immediately
>reply with, "An elf," as if those are the only characters in existence
>worth playing.
<Snip>

Perhaps, but elves have kind of been overdone, just like dragons,
though in a different way. Even if you stop considering the SR-verse,
where they are drop-dead gorgeous, have the coolest magicks, are
filthy rich and sometimes even immortal, elves always come first.
Tolkien made them into the coolest kids on the blocks and they've
been on a roll since then. Taking this into account, who wouldn't want
to be one.
It's as simple as that. It's fun to play another race, but usually
people who want to see their character grow in his power, will play
an elf. Though they don't have the best physical modifiers, munchkins
are almost always elves: I once saw on the net a grade 15 elf physad 8-( .
You also have to consider the modifiers of each race. Goblins rock
when it comes to physical conflict but their mental stats seriously impair
them when it comes to magic or decking. If you play a magic user you'll
drift to dwarves if you rely on spells (+1 Willpower comes in handy) or
elves if you use spirits a lot. That why I chose that my green Angel
character would be an elf. Being a shaman, the 2 extra points in
Charisma made one big difference. Had I decided to play a physad,
you can bet my character would be an ork.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

Anjo Verde
Message no. 18
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:36:51 -0500
----------
> From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
> >Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
> >use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
> >and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.
>
> Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans under
the
> game rules.

Functional difference? Druids are limited to two kinds of fetishes (a
stupid rule I hope they drop), the golden sickle and, in SR1&2, mistletoe.
Druids must have a sacred site (which is substantially different than a
medicine lodge)/ Druids of animal totems may not summon spirits of Man.
Druids have bonuses to conjuring based on proximity to their sacred
circle, get more services, and their spirits last until the first dawn
following the summoning, rather than sunset or sunrise, and are less
likely to be attacked by spirits who go uncontrolled. (pg 30, Grimmy 2)

Personally, I disagree with how they did Druids, but as the Awakened
Papacy thread proves, so did a lot of Catholics about FASA's treatment of
the Church.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'
Message no. 19
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:40:44 -0500
----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>
> Druids: Predominantly of English origin,

Correction: Predominantly of Celtic origin. You'll find "shamanic druids"
in Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and Cornwall, mostly, while the English
(different than Welsh, Scottish, Irish or Cornish, and you'll get told
that) mostly have "hermetic druids" (hermetic magicians who call
themselves druids).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'
Message no. 20
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:36:22 EDT
All I can say personally is that...The two most childish players I've
encountered were both playing Elf physads.

AND

All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory street-
name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is. Hey. What's
Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?
Message no. 21
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:46:51 -0500
----------
> From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
>
> All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory
street-
> name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is. Hey.
What's
> Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?

Difficult to pronounce <g>
Message no. 22
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:51:16 -0500
Sean McCrohan wrote:
> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in, but
> have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what percentage
> of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
> common)?

Well, the last game I played in, I think there were... six? (so it's been a
while. So sue me:P) characters, three of which were human, one was an elf, and
I've mostly forgotten what the other two (not sure there were that many more,
which might be part of the problem:) were, though I think one was a shaper.

> Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
> 'the weird stuff'? ("Sure, you can play an Otaku, Joe. Sally, you're still
> playing the giant were-sloth, right? John, I have your character sheet
> for the cyber-zombie, and Tim, you're looking pretty tame with just a
> physical mage. Oh, hey, and whose is this Sasquatch? It doesn't have a
> name on it.") Not to cast aspersions upon any of those character types,
> (campaigns differe widely in feel and focus) but they are a bit further
> 'out there' from the core than your typical archetypes.

<g> I think I answered that question already. But, when last I GM'd, it was
nearly open season. Nearly. Were I to start a new game, I'd certainly do about
the same, which is allow just about anything, provided the player can provide an
adequate background and explanation, etc. Truthfully, I don't think that the
meta-variants are too bad on the game balance end (well, once 'fixed' :).
Shapers in general are a tad bit overpowerful, yes. Phys. Mages don't bother me
in the least (well, they don't bother me much:), cyber-zombies won't happen in
any campaign I run:), and Sasquatches, vampires, etc? Well, been there, did
that, shoulda got a t-shirt. Otaku and decking will happen about the time hell
freezes over or I manage to read and get something out of the decking rules
(which are only slightly harder to dig through than the rigging rules:/). A lot
of that isn't anything new, and *none* of it will wreck game balance, *if* the
players and the GM are willing to run the game 'right'. IMHO. YMMV. "And that's
all I've got to say about that..."
:)

Remember, everyone: Play nice;)

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:28:59 -0400
At 07:36 PM 9/17/98 EDT, you wrote:

>All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory street-
>name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is. Hey.
What's
>Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?

Heh heh. Be nice Ted...

That incident, specifically, happened in my game a few weeks back. Couple
of innocents were trying to escape the gun fight that had happened. Adept,
if I remember right, rolled an ungodly high number on his perception test,
so he noticed this. BTW, the gun fight is now over when he sees this. So
what does he do? He assumes that anyone trying to escape must be a bad
guy, shoots the driver of the car in the head, which causes it to slam into
a wall, killing the female passenger...who happened to be the daughter of
Leonard Aurelius (I was running "Knight's Gambit" from Blood in the
Boardroom).

So now all the PC's involved are being actively hunted by Cross Applied
Technologies, with a vengeance. Ted's not the only PC that's a bit bitter
towards the elf adept in question...

Damn thing is, I ran the same adventure at the Comicon and one schmuk did
the same bloody thing. And especially in the case at the Comicon, the rest
of the table (I think Craig in particular) was horrified at what was
happening but was powerless to do anything about it...

I think this adept also killed some helpless (bound and gagged) bad guys
the following session. I think that was him anyway.

This weekend I'm going to sit down with the guy and have a little chat
(assuming he shows that is) about what I'd like the game to be like, i.e.,
not so brutal.

But that's the background story.

I suppose it may fit into the "Dumb Things" thread too...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 24
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:41:54 -0500
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 11:53:25 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 8:33 AM

>>Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
>>use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman,
>>and Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.

>Explain to me the functional difference between druids and shamans under
the
>game rules.
<SNIP Sig>

Druids are more limited than Shamans but have some bonuses to offset
those limitations.

Their main limitation is that they summon fewer spirits than Shamans.
Only the non-animal totems can summon spirits of man. (and yes, Druids
following non-animal totem still summon fewer spirits than Shamans.)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 25
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:25:21 -0500
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:48:49 -0400 Sean McCrohan
<mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU> writes:
<SNIP>
> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested
in, but
>have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what
percentage
>of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
>common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns
up to
>'the weird stuff'?
<SNIP>

About 66% are metahumans in my game with elves coming in first. I
stopped allowing shapeshifters in the game unless the player can prove
that s/he can roleplay the part consistently (I tried but couldn't,
really.). We do have a Free Ally Spirit in the group with amnesia that
THINKS he is a shapeshifter (but he hasn't played in a while and probably
won't play so I didn't include his character in the demographics.). I've
also made up a Free Fire Elemental character that I'm most likely not
going to play. (The charcter is primarily a guinea pig for the Free
Spirit PC rules I'm working on. [I currently use some net rules.]) I've
thought about allowing Dragon PCs by varying the Free Spirits PC rules.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 26
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:27:39 +1000
<Snipety snip snip>
>What I was referring to is what happens when you ask some players
>about what kind of character they want to play, and they immediately
>reply with, "An elf," as if those are the only characters in existence
>worth playing.
<Snipety snip snip>

You know what's worse - players who will only play the Night One
metavariant (that extra +1 Quickness allows you a natural Reaction of 7,
doncha know - and that's _all_ that's important), only magical characters,
or who always play Trolls as exceptionally big, exceptionally stupid, and
exceptionally violent. Why can't we all just live in a world where
roleplaying rather than munchkinism is valued by the majority of players...
Yeah, like that'll happen without some carefully planned explosives...

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 27
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:49:40 -0700
>I think this adept also killed some helpless (bound and gagged) bad guys
>the following session. I think that was him anyway.

I'd just make sure that whenever the group is captured, bound and gagged,
that the bad guys decide to cap him in the head. Everyone else can get
rescued.

Mercenary rules. Or if you prefer, karma ...

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 28
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:55:20 -0500
----------
> From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
>
> You know what's worse - players who will only play only magical
characters,

I made a snip in there so only what I was talking about got in.

I only play magical characters. Why? A) Because I really like magical
characters. B) Because I'm good at it. However, my characters are all
different, ranging from a blind ex-Jesuit Human Hermetic, to a Dwarven
Bear Druid with a penchant for nudity, to a shapeshifter adept with a
near-complete lack of ability to understand human nature. Those three
characters are all magic-users, two are magicians. Its not necessarily a
lack of ability, but a lack of interest. I don't like street meat...
they're nothing like me, and I never liked guns all that much. I don't
understand the rules for deckers (because he never bothers to read them.
-Ed), and I've not yet played a rigger, though I've had some ideas for
one.

There's a difference between only playing one type of character because it
gets the best bonuses, or because its all you're capable of. Its an
entirely different thing to do it because you like doing what you're good
at.

Nexx
Message no. 29
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:58:19 +1000
> All I can say personally is that...The two most childish players I've
> encountered were both playing Elf physads.
>
> AND
>
> All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory
> street-
> name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is.
> Hey. What's
> Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?
>
Gee...guess you haven't played with me yet.

One of my favourite characters is an elf physad by the name of Rabid.
He's tough, he's nasty, he slices and dices - but his pet phrase so far
would be, "We aren't here to make corpses." Believe it or not, in a
previous life he used to be a KE Executive Protection Adept.

Sorry, guess I don't qualify for your Sperethiel tag. Seems to me you've
got bad players, not that elf characters all have to be munchkins.

Doc'
Message no. 30
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:10:03 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/98 6:39:41 PM, Doc' wrote:

>> All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory
>> street-
>> name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is.
>> Hey. What's
>> Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?
>>
>Gee...guess you haven't played with me yet.
>
>One of my favourite characters is an elf physad by the name of Rabid.
>He's tough, he's nasty, he slices and dices - but his pet phrase so far
>would be, "We aren't here to make corpses." Believe it or not, in a
>previous life he used to be a KE Executive Protection Adept.
>
>Sorry, guess I don't qualify for your Sperethiel tag. Seems to me you've
>got bad players, not that elf characters all have to be munchkins.

Like I said, all the Elf Physad players I've met so far.
Message no. 31
From: Smilin' Ted <Tuvyah@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 23:19:32 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/98 4:29:47 PM, you wrote:

>>All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory street-
>>name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is. Hey.
>What's
>>Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?
>
>Heh heh. Be nice Ted...
>
>That incident, specifically, happened in my game a few weeks back

I *was* being nice! Honest! I didn't say he was the *only* Elf Physad I've met
like that. There have been others. (He's just the only one who's forced my
formerly SINned character to go deep underground and lose his legit identity
possibly forever to hide from CAT's vengeance. Anyone priced one-way tickets
to Kazakhstan recently?)
Message no. 32
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:07:41 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/98 8:50:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU writes:

> First, what percentage of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and
> which races are most common)?

In my oldest shadowrun game, out of 5 players, 4 of them are metahumans. Only
1/2 of the metas are elves. We have an ork and a dwarf as well.

The dwarf is the NPC.

In the new game I am running at USC campus, of the 6 players only two of them
are metahumans. One is an elf and one is a troll. The troll will be leaving
soon, since the player has a habit of throw fits that almost ribval that of my
5 year old daughter.

> Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
> 'the weird stuff'?

Other than the GM tormenting the players with vampire physadepts named
callisto, I have no wierd things that the players do.

-Bandit
Message no. 33
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:32:56 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Ratinac, Rand (NSW) wrote:

->> All I can say personally is that...The two most childish players I've
->> encountered were both playing Elf physads.
->>
->> AND
->>
->> All the Elf physad players I've met so far have merited a derogatory
->> street-
->> name for some pointless act of violence. I don't know why that is.
->> Hey. What's
->> Sperethiel for "Killer of Bystanders"?
->>
<snip>
->
->Sorry, guess I don't qualify for your Sperethiel tag. Seems to me you've
->got bad players, not that elf characters all have to be munchkins.

I don't believe that was ever the point. I believe the point was
more that munchkins usually choose to be elves, not the other way around.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 34
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:29:46 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998, Nexx wrote:

->> You know what's worse - players who will only play only magical
->characters,
->
->I made a snip in there so only what I was talking about got in.

Ditto.

->I only play magical characters. Why? A) Because I really like magical
->characters. B) Because I'm good at it. However, my characters are all
->different, ranging from a blind ex-Jesuit Human Hermetic, to a Dwarven
->Bear Druid with a penchant for nudity, to a shapeshifter adept with a
->near-complete lack of ability to understand human nature. Those three
->characters are all magic-users, two are magicians. Its not necessarily a
->lack of ability, but a lack of interest. I don't like street meat...
->they're nothing like me, and I never liked guns all that much. I don't
->understand the rules for deckers (because he never bothers to read them.
->-Ed), and I've not yet played a rigger, though I've had some ideas for
->one.

I'm about the same, although more PhysAds than Mages (My GMs don't
like me playing mages, I tend to be WAY to creative). I have played
Riggers (Nexx, if you like using spirirts, you can enjoy playing a
rigger), Street Samurai (Usualy ungodly fast ones, too..) and Deckers (who
are also usually a physad, does that count?).

->There's a difference between only playing one type of character because it
->gets the best bonuses, or because its all you're capable of. Its an
->entirely different thing to do it because you like doing what you're good
->at.

I play magic predominant because I'd really like magic to work
IRL. Best I've been able to do (yeah, a true amateur magican) is make it
rain, occasionally, when I want it to. Then again, I'm in Florida, so
it's probably just statistically likely it happens naturally, but when I
do the dance (my style is Shamanic), it rains within 24 hours 90% of the
time. My mother used to tell me to go outside and dance when her garden
was drying out (often during the summer), and I'd do it and it rained, go
figger.
I still don't believe it's 'magic' the way that Shadowrun
describes it, but it's some form of science I don't understand but can
use, so that's magic to me.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 35
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:33:40 EDT
It has been said that:

>You know what's worse - players who will only play only magical
>characters,

I don't have this problem in any of my Shadowrun games that I run, since I
limit how many mages and adepts can be in the party. I think the limit now is
1 full page and upto 2 adepts so long as only one of them is a physical adept.

-Bandit
Message no. 36
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:58:07 -0400
At 11:32 PM 9/17/98 +0200, Anjo Verde wrote:
> You also have to consider the modifiers of each race. Goblins rock
>when it comes to physical conflict but their mental stats seriously impair
>them when it comes to magic or decking. If you play a magic user you'll
>drift to dwarves if you rely on spells (+1 Willpower comes in handy) or
>elves if you use spirits a lot. That why I chose that my green Angel
>character would be an elf. Being a shaman, the 2 extra points in
>Charisma made one big difference. Had I decided to play a physad,
>you can bet my character would be an ork.

Ugh, you have to be kidding me? I'd hate to stick to that reasoning.
Here are some of my characters I've made up (I always GM, so I've never
actually played them)
Dwarf Physad...no increased reaction...he always went last but when he
went...*bam*...done.
Elf Rat Shaman, kept his charisma at 2...not a pleasant individual.
Ork Elemental Adept...inspired from the picture in the grim.
Troll Decker

Well, those are my meta's at least...most others being human. Anyway,
being the GM...I tend to try to make different NPC's and such for example
to my gamers and to help them not stereotype meta humans...so far so good,
not had one Dwarf Technician. (:


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 37
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:01:42 -0500
----------
> From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
>
> I play magic predominant because I'd really like magic to work
> IRL.

That's part of it, too <g> I'd be willing that many people who primarily
role-play mages (as opposed to roll-play), would really like it if magic
was a bit more visible in the real world. <g>

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
*
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
Caught in a landslide,
No escape from reality.
Open your eyes, Look up to the skies and see,
I'm just a poor boy, I need no sympathy,
Because I'm easy come, easy go, Little high, little low,
Any way the wind blows doesn't really matter to me, to me
-Queen "Bohemian Rhapsody"
*
Heston: 'We Must Arm Ourselves If We Are To Defeat The Apes'
Message no. 38
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:02:05 -0400
On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:55:20 -0500 Nexx <nexx@********.NET> writes:

>There's a difference between only playing one type of character because
it
>gets the best bonuses, or because its all you're capable of. Its an
>entirely different thing to do it because you like doing what you're
good
>at.

This is something that's taken shape in the campaign I'm running. One
guy's played the same character in every campaign he's been in, near as I
can figure. The cocky, dick-swinging (or is that dicky, coc-- nevermind)
mercenary. He's the type to waste somebody because that person might,
sometime in the future, be a threat. This includes most law enforcement
officials and military types. Another is a girl who hasn't really
grasped the concept of "role-playing," other than she likes to be the
"healer." She actually once said "I lie to the guard."

(Response: "Okay. He's wondering how much you charge by the hour. It's
been a while since someone's been this forward with him.")

Then, there's another fellah who likes to play the "strong guy." Ork,
Troll, et al. But, he's good at it (in fact has been the voice of
reason, not to mention sanity, on several occasions). He just doesn't
have much interest in trying something new, and I don't feel the need to
push him otherwise.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Stop! We have reached the limits of what rectal probing can teach us."
-Kang, 'The Simpsons'

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Message no. 39
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:22:54 -0500
>> You know what's worse - players who will only play only magical
>characters,

<snip>

>There's a difference between only playing one type of character because it
>gets the best bonuses, or because its all you're capable of. Its an
>entirely different thing to do it because you like doing what you're good
>at.

Hear, hear!!

There's still another difference between playing for the bonuses or because
you're not capable of something else, and doing something because, not only
are you good at it, you happen to like it, as well.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 40
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:01:07 -0400
You know, after I asked that question about what metahumans people
see in their campaigns, I realized that I've never actually played one.
All of my PCs have been human (well, okay. So that's only two characters -
I'm fairly new to SR. But still). Unfortunately, I don't think I can make
my upcoming character meta without breaking his concept. Except maybe
a dwarf, and then the iron will that's one of his primary character traits
just becomes part of a racial stereotype. I think I'll have to just keep
playing a boring sapiens. :)

--Sean
Message no. 41
From: Alex Yang <gt0697b@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:28:27 -0700
00DNA wrote, in reply to Sean McCrohan:

I haven't had any being anything "special" in my group, including
meta-varients. I would allow them, ONLY under specific circumstances.
I'd really have to make sure that the person playing that character
could really do it. For example, the "flaw" of most of the
meta-varients is that they are weird and people will not like
them...they'd better play this or...well...they just better play it. (:
--------
I've received comments about how my PCs (in any genre) are never
_quite_ normal. So, for those interested in a new sub-variant, here's
the template for my last SR character:

Ahtalik (Elf Sub-Variant)

Inuit stories tell of those who have died and returned to life. When
UGE manifested itself in the North, these stories surfaced again.

An average ahtalik stands 1.8m in height and weighs 80 kg. They are
thickly furred (as opposed to Night Ones, who are pathetically
furred), enjoy low-light vision, are somewhat more dextrous (+1 QUI),
and are very stealthy (+2 dice to Stealth).

Some RP notes: Ahtalik look human beneath their fur, but shaving is
quite a pain. As winter approaches, they tend to fatten up and their
fur lightens in color (my PC has white fur in winter, black fur in
summer).

Flaws & Weirdness:
My PC grew fur really quickly. After emerging from a two-week sojourn
in the wilderness, he looked more animal than man (that fact was not
lost on the gas-station attendant who threatened to blow my head off
when I asked to borrow his phone). On the other hand, it's really easy
to change hair styles every other day.

What prompted an ahtalik, when I wanted an albino night one whose fur
changed color? We decided that Svarthelheim (I'm sure I mangled that
spelling) would manifest in Norway rather than Greenland, and the
background of tribal shaman fit better in Inuit culture than Norse.

Just thought I would add smoke to the fire.

-- Alex
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Message no. 42
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:47:59 -0400
At 10:58 AM 9/18/98 +1000, you wrote:

>Sorry, guess I don't qualify for your Sperethiel tag. Seems to me you've
>got bad players, not that elf characters all have to be munchkins.

He did say all those that he had *met*, not all of them in creation.

And the player in question is relatively new to my game and unless I'm
mistaken, switches weekends playing SR with us then AD&D the next weekend
and so forth, so it'll take a bit of time for him to adjust to my less
lethal style of gaming.

As Ted mentioned, the actions of this PC are having drastic consequences
(and really only the logical ones, I'm not being vicious) and may require
existing PCs go into hiding or fake their deaths and have cosmetic surgery
and such.

But as I said before, I'm going to have a chat with the player and make it
clear that in my game, not every NPC is an enemy or even a potential threat.

If he still doesn't get it after a session or two, then I'll let natural
processes take their course and the PC will be killed. Generate a new
character.

And while my players may not have real in-depth rules knowledge, they are
pretty good role-players and we all have a good time.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 43
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:48:26 -0400
At 08:07 AM 9/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Other than the GM tormenting the players with vampire physadepts named
>callisto, I have no wierd things that the players do.

So THAT'S what that means...I've been wondering what "and now with cool
Callisto action figure!" meant in your .sig...

This Callisto wouldn't bear any similarities to the character on Xena would
it? If so, I feel sorry for your players... ;-)

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 44
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:00:42 EDT
In a message dated 9/18/98 12:49:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> So THAT'S what that means...I've been wondering what "and now with cool
> Callisto action figure!" meant in your .sig...

Yep! I bought the callisto action figure when I saw it on one of my midnight
trips to Wal-mart :)

> This Callisto wouldn't bear any similarities to the character on Xena would
> it? If so, I feel sorry for your players... ;-)

Actually, the NPC was based on the TV show's character. It was a really evil
module that involved intrigue, murder, incest and cannibalism! One day I will
post it to my web site.

-Bandit
Message no. 45
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:35:35 -0400
Alex Yang wrote:
> I've received comments about how my PCs (in any genre) are never
> _quite_ normal. So, for those interested in a new sub-variant, here's
> the template for my last SR character:
>
> Ahtalik (Elf Sub-Variant)
[snip]
> What prompted an ahtalik, when I wanted an albino night one whose fur
> changed color? We decided that Svarthelheim (I'm sure I mangled that
> spelling) would manifest in Norway rather than Greenland, and the
> background of tribal shaman fit better in Inuit culture than Norse.
>
"Svartalfheim", literally "Dark Elf Home", more commonly "Dwarf
Home"
(they were described as short, underground dwellers with a propensity
for metalworking). Yeah, Greenland isn't a great place for that sort
of thing - Norway's good, Sweden's OK, Finland is still better than
Greenland. Lappland might do better than Finland.

Norse magic is basically hermetic - they used what boils down to runic
magic (for which knowledge Odin hung on the world tree for a week or
so, giving the tree the name "Yggdrasil", literally "Odin's Horse",
commonly "Odin's Gallows").

I make sure to research my characters. ;-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 46
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:37:34 -0400
M. Sean Martinez wrote:
> > This Callisto wouldn't bear any similarities to the character on Xena
> would
> > it? If so, I feel sorry for your players... ;-)
>
> Actually, the NPC was based on the TV show's character. It was a really
> evil
> module that involved intrigue, murder, incest and cannibalism! One day I
> will
> post it to my web site.
>
Please do; there's nothing I like better than a twisted, cruel, but
above all - cheerful enemy. :-)

James Ojaste
Message no. 47
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:02:20 EDT
In a message dated 9/18/98 12:02:03 PM AST, mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU
writes:

> You know, after I asked that question about what metahumans people
> see in their campaigns, I realized that I've never actually played one.
> All of my PCs have been human (well, okay. So that's only two characters -
> I'm fairly new to SR. But still). Unfortunately, I don't think I can make
> my upcoming character meta without breaking his concept. Except maybe
> a dwarf, and then the iron will that's one of his primary character traits
> just becomes part of a racial stereotype. I think I'll have to just keep
> playing a boring sapiens. :)
>
> --Sean
>

I think it is in the way you approach gaming. For some people playing
something very different is appealing. For others their characters are a
projection of themselves. I fall into the latter category. I have been playing
Shadowrun for about 8 years. I have only played one non-human and I have never
played a caucasian character. All of my characters have been African-American
or Native American. Every character I make I get closer to taking former or
current Humanis member as a dark secret disad.
Message no. 48
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:12:45 -0400
At 01:00 PM 9/18/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> This Callisto wouldn't bear any similarities to the character on Xena
would
>> it? If so, I feel sorry for your players... ;-)
>
>Actually, the NPC was based on the TV show's character. It was a really evil
>module that involved intrigue, murder, incest and cannibalism! One day I will
>post it to my web site.

ARGH!! Tell me NOW!! It sounds too cool to wait!

Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 49
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:39:13 -0400
<SNIp Tell me also>
>Which brings up another point, another question. How many
>folks have
>recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do
>right, to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.
I've had several reoccuring NPC's and Villians. The most
notable was a Wolf-Toxic Shaman, who showed up several
times, sometimes behind the scenes, sometimes not, to plague
the characters. Come to think of it, they still don't know if he's
alive or dead. I also had a very nastly high level force Ant Queen
spirit, that was around for a few adventures, and could
have survived the building exploding.
I've also had a PA who liked to throw poison spikes, and
a psychotic blood mage who were around for 3 adventures.
The trick is to have things happen to the NPC Villians in
downtime, so their powers may have weakened or grown.
Space the adventures out, and keep the involvement subtle.
I never had a hard time keeping them alive, because most
had alot of henchmen to keep the players busy or spirit them
away if they were hurt.
As in all things YMMV, but in a long running campaign these
are the things that add true color.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 50
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:34:51 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

>
> ARGH!! Tell me NOW!! It sounds too cool to wait!

Ditto

>
> Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
> recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
> to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.
>

Other than Harlequin? :)

We have had three other recurring villans.

The first, well I can't remember his real name becuase we kept
deliberately mangling it to his face, was a professional merc. One PC ( a
mantid shaman) kidnapped a member of his team who was unconcious after
we came into conflict during a run and invested "Smiley" with a insect
spirit. So Smiley's team was after our hide for a while. Until we made
their leader an offer that was more profitable (We hired his team to help
us on a well-paid job).

The second just kept threatening us and sending hired guns against us,
until Speedy finally killed him at a christening party and stole his sword
(see the DUMB THINGS thread).

The final recurring villan was a Azatlaner blood mage. Blade and Warder
were hired to catch him and take him to jail. He escaped from jail. I
believe he then arranged for them to have a bad day. Then we were hired to
go recapture him in Denver (see the carmelized runner story in the DUMB
THINGS thread). Finally, we took him down for good in a run that took
place just inside the Azzie border.

I like recurring villans. It can be a lot of fun when things start looking
familar and when past actions come back to haunt or help you.

- Kama
Message no. 51
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:52:26 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
> recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
> to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.

I was actually using Darke as a recurring villain long before the PC's
went through _Harlequin's Back_. By the time they ran the module he'd
developed a very different personality than FASA's description, and I once
had to pull some *very* weird stuff to keep the PC's from killing him
prematurely, but he was fun to play. (And I think fun for the players to
hate.)

My *main* recurring villain, though, was a pumped-up wraith named the
Reaper. He'd set himself up as a crime boss in Seattle, gathering hidden
informants and political power. One of the PC's was actually a mole, an
initiate in the Reaper's magical group, and had some interesting problems
explaining to the other PC's why she was still on their side, despite her
sworn fealty to the Reaper and the wide-area cortex bomb in her head...
>8->

The Reaper's shown up in a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle ways in my
campaign. He's used the PC's indirectly to consolidate his Denver
operations. He's murdered their fixer and framed them for it, just to see
how they'd respond. Following _Divided Assets_ the PC's even sent the kid
to the Reaper for safekeeping, though only one of the PC's knew wthat's
where he was going. >8-> (After all, *she'd* been raised by the Reaper
since childhood, and *she'd* turned out just fine, right?)

Near the end of the campaign, it was actually the Reaper that coerced the
PC's to track down Darke and go along on the _Harlequin's Back_ schtick..
The Reaper was having a grand old time in the world and didn't want it
ruined by the arrival of bigger Horrors. When they got back from _HB_ the
PC's came up with an elaborate plan to kill him, with the assistance of
the Draco Foundation, but said plan was monkeywrenched with suspicion when
the Reaper sent conflicting messages using the Foundation's agents.
Eventually they figured out the Reaper's true name (actually they'd known
it for months, but hadn't recognized it as such) and destroyed him in a
conjuring ritual. -- Or so they were convinced. >8->


Anyway, the short answer is, "Yes, I've used recurring villains." What's
more, with the _Nowhere Man_-inspired campaign I'm starting up in three
weeks, I see even more opportunities to use them.

How many points is this worth on the EvilGM Test, anyway?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 52
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:44:57 -0400
At 02:34 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Kama wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>>
>> Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
>> recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
>> to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.
>>
>
>Other than Harlequin? :)
>
>We have had three other recurring villans.
>

<clipped account of three recurring villians>

Equally interesting are recurring characters that the PCs aren't quite sure
are a villain or a "hero." Earlier in my campaign the PCs had repeated
encounters with a combat mage highly placed in Aztechnology's security
organization. They did derive some advantages from the association but
were never quite sure if he had some master plan that would ultimately
result in their messy demise or if he just liked playing with their minds.
Hmmm...maybe it's time for Santiago to make a reappearance... <grin>

-- blair
------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/
Message no. 53
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:03:21 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Blair A. Monroe wrote:

> At 02:34 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Kama wrote:
> >On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
> >> recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
> >> to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.
> >>
> >
> >Other than Harlequin? :)
> >
> >We have had three other recurring villans.
> >
>
> <clipped account of three recurring villians>
>
> Equally interesting are recurring characters that the PCs aren't quite sure
> are a villain or a "hero." Earlier in my campaign the PCs had repeated
> encounters with a combat mage highly placed in Aztechnology's security
> organization. They did derive some advantages from the association but
> were never quite sure if he had some master plan that would ultimately
> result in their messy demise or if he just liked playing with their minds.
> Hmmm...maybe it's time for Santiago to make a reappearance... <grin>
>

Cool! I haven't seen him since his wedding!

Also, I forgot that *&$@@# Roach Shaman. You remember him. He turned
that poor kid Lena was guarding into an insect spirit. Then, he hired the
PCs (in disguise) to kill an ant shaman and then tried to finish them off
while they were injured. He's due to turn up again soon - Amber will love
it!

Errr, yes, general commentary: suffice it to say that we have had a large
number of recurring villans and each one of them holds a special piece of
the players' hearts. They have added greatly to the world and have helped
to tie the entire campaign together over a number of years and through a
number of changes in players and characters. Generally, we have not had
too much of a problem surviving since the GM always had an escape hatch
planned for the villans he wanted to use again.

- Kama
Message no. 54
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:05:36 -0500
>Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
>recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do
>right, to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.

You mean besides Aztech? <semi-grin> Yeah, though since the campaign is
young, Kethas hasn't recurred much. Yet.
Message no. 55
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:42:52 -0400
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, Kama wrote:

<snippage>
->> Equally interesting are recurring characters that the PCs aren't quite sure
->> are a villain or a "hero." Earlier in my campaign the PCs had
repeated
->> encounters with a combat mage highly placed in Aztechnology's security
->> organization. They did derive some advantages from the association but
->> were never quite sure if he had some master plan that would ultimately
->> result in their messy demise or if he just liked playing with their minds.
->> Hmmm...maybe it's time for Santiago to make a reappearance... <grin>
->
->Cool! I haven't seen him since his wedding!
->
->Also, I forgot that *&$@@# Roach Shaman. You remember him. He turned
->that poor kid Lena was guarding into an insect spirit. Then, he hired the
->PCs (in disguise) to kill an ant shaman and then tried to finish them off
->while they were injured. He's due to turn up again soon - Amber will love
->it!
->
->Errr, yes, general commentary: suffice it to say that we have had a large
->number of recurring villans and each one of them holds a special piece of
->the players' hearts. They have added greatly to the world and have helped
->to tie the entire campaign together over a number of years and through a
->number of changes in players and characters. Generally, we have not had
->too much of a problem surviving since the GM always had an escape hatch
->planned for the villans he wanted to use again.

Kama, Blair, am I supposed to act like I don't know these things?
]:-) Just checking.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 56
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:50:37 EDT
In a message dated 9/18/98 3:45:42 PM AST, bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU writes:

> Equally interesting are recurring characters that the PCs aren't quite sure
> are a villain or a "hero."

As a player these kinds of villians make me crazy. The GM I have played with
for years has a number of recurring NPCs that never seem to show their true
colors. He has done a great job with them and when one appears the tension
always goes to a different level.

As far as recurring NPCs I assumed all GMs used them.
Message no. 57
From: Slipspeed <atreloar@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:09:10 +1000
>I think it is in the way you approach gaming. For some people playing
>something very different is appealing. For others their characters are a
>projection of themselves. I fall into the latter category. I have been
playing


Personally, I think every character has at least part of the player in it.
Whether it's the ideals the player wants to be, or the dark side of their
psych that they can't/don't want to release.

Assuming they're ROLEplaying, that is, not rollplaying...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology. So
there."
Adam Treloar aka Guardian, Slipspeed
atreloar@*********.com
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Message no. 58
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:05:20 +0000
and thus did David Foster speak on 17 Sep 98 at 9:42:

> Slightly off topic but, who here allows shamans (not Druids) to
> use the Druid's totems? I always liked the idea of a Moon Shaman, and
> Moon Druids never seemed cool to me, I dunno.

Sure, I always figured that most shamans would be non-native
Americans so had no idea about what's a totem or what's possible or
not until the totem contacts them. I allow them to choose anything
they want, even if it's one that's not in the books
.

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 59
From: Martin Steffens <chimerae@***.IE>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:05:20 +0000
and thus did Sean McCrohan speak on 17 Sep 98 at 8:48:

> Actually, this brings up some questions I'm sort of interested in, but
> have only a tangential bearing on the original topic. First, what percentage
> of the PCs in peoples' campaigns are metahuman (and which races are most
> common)? Second, how many people out there have opened their campaigns up to
> 'the weird stuff'?

Roughly 50% human, 50% meta's.
Meta's: 45% elf; 35% troll; 10% ork and 10% dwarf.
Again guestimates.

No weird stuff, although I am considering meta-variants it if I ever
get around to starting up a new group (Anyone in Dublin playing?...
*sigh*). I don't think I'll ever allow anything like shifters or more
exotic stuff as a GM, but that's a personal preference.

Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie
Message no. 60
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:02:54 EDT
In a message dated 9/18/1998 1:15:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

>
> Which brings up another point, another question. How many folks have
> recurring villains in their games? It can be rather difficult to do right,
> to keep it fresh, to keep the NPC alive sometimes.
>
> Erik J.

I can simply say, Yes, we have had our share of recurring *opponents* ;)

-K
Message no. 61
From: Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: New players and elves (Was: tournaments help)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 16:18:02 -0400
Kama wrote:
<snip>
> Also, I forgot that *&$@@# Roach Shaman.
<snip>

Oh, yes. I have one of those as a semi-recurring villain hanging around,
tormenting my players in my IRC campaign...the so-called "Bug Man" has a
penchant for dream magic, and has been regularly sending my PCs
nightmares involving large quantities of cockroaches. I actually scared
one PC enough to give her a phobia of roaches (her dream involved laying
paralyzed in bed while thousands of roaches crawled over her- in her
ears, her mouth, her nose...) Needless to say, I'm rather infamous for
that particular incident.


--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>


"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

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