Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:03:21 -0700 (PDT)
Is it my imagination or has the production of
new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
it came out. Lately there has been nothing
new except the rewriting of older books.

Example:

Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
Grimoire - Grimoire 2
Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows
Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2
Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2
Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download

I know the need to update the material, but
there seems to be a lack of new material. So
what are other opinions on this topic?


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: Bull bull@*******.net
Subject: New Products
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 19:33:31 -0400 (EDT)
At 04:03 PM 7/8/99 -0700, Jyster Cap wrote these timeless words:
>Is it my imagination or has the production of
>new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
>it came out. Lately there has been nothing
>new except the rewriting of older books.
>
Well, part of this is because of SR3. And this simply takes up the bulk of
new products.

Part of this is possibly because of the various other games FASA is working
on, especially the new stuff. SR3 slowed down FASA's other product lines
when it came out, and now it's taking it's turn to step back slightly as
Vor, Crimson Skies, and MachWarrior 3rd Ed. step up to the plate.

>Example:
>
Just as a note... Some of your examples here are 5-7 years old...

>Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
>Grimoire - Grimoire 2
>
Were minor overhauls that came out shortly after SR2, in late 1992, early
1993. They simply converted stats and such to 2nd edition.

>Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows
>
MITS was one of the reason SR3 came about in the first place. Magic got a
major overhaul in 3rd Ed., and MITS compiles both Grimoire and Awakenings.

>Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2
>
Despite the (well known) feelings of some players, Rigging sucked, in many
players opinions (No, let's NOT get into this. It's an opinion :)).
Rigger 2 was necessary, IMO.

>Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2
>
This kinda follows the idea above for R2, except that the writing for VR2
sucks :( It's an unfinished book, IMO, but the core mechanics are good.

>Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
>
We've had 10 years of plot and major changes to the city. personally, I
look at this as a Story update book, rather than a simple "new edition".
You want to get a feel for all the major storylines that have happened in
SR over the last few years (Corp War, Mob War, Election, Renraku), this
book can give you the basics, and how they relate to the "Core" city
setting for Shadowrun, Seattle. Once again, an update book that was badly
needed. I haven;t even looked at the old Seattle Sourcebook in 3 or 4
years, it was so out of date.

>Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download
>
These are two VERY different books. No comparison. (BTW, Corporate
Shadowfiles is what you were thinking of). One was a book about how corps
ran (Corp Shadowfiles), one is abook about what corps are and do and who
they are (Corp D'load).

>I know the need to update the material, but
>there seems to be a lack of new material. So
>what are other opinions on this topic?
>
Please, don't take this the wrong way. It's hard to be sarcastic in a
friendly, teasing way through e-mail, and this is meant more as a jest than
anything else, but you don't read much, do you?

Most of the Shadowrun products to date have furthered the storyline for
Shadowrun in some way, while still providing useful material. The update
books are all that way, talking about new advances in technology, or new
threads or threats that are cropping up.

As for "New" material, we have the two Target Books, Threats, Portffolio of
a Dragon, at least one adventure/module type book every year, Reraku:
Shutdown, and probably a couple others that I'm forgetting.

I don't know what else you could ask for, really... Shadowrun has one of
those few game worlds that is constantly evolving, that has a moving and
dynamic storyline, and that has a game system that is always working to
impore itself (Through its writers, at least :)).

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible slothman@*********.org
Subject: New Products
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 16:29:18 -0700
At 16:03 7/8/99 -0700, Jyster Cap wrote:
>Is it my imagination or has the production of
>new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
>it came out. Lately there has been nothing
>new except the rewriting of older books.

Let's see: in the timespan of the books that you list, they've come
out with Blood in the Boardroom, Cyberpirates, Dunkelzahn's Secrets,
Mob War, the Shadowrun Companion, Renraku Arcology: Shutdown, and many
more books. That doens't sound like "nothing new" to me; you're probably
just imagining things.

>Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
>Grimoire - Grimoire 2

These two were just updates of SR1 books for SR2; those were closer
to being reprints than new editions.

>Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows

Magic in the Shadows is an SR3 recap and update of the Grimoire and
Awakenings. If you have MITS, you don't need the other two books.
There is plenty of new material in there, too.

>Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2

More goodies for riggers, with lots of rules expansions and an entire
vehicle design system. How many years passed between the publication
of the first book and the second one? Rigger 2 isn't really a rewrite
of Rigger 1-- some of its material supercedes Rigger 1's system, but
the relationship is much more like that of Awakenings to the Grimoire:
extra goodies to make things more interesting. Rigger 1 is mainly
a vehicle catalogue, anyway, and that's still useful with the new rules.

>Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2

An overly complicated system to make deckers into NPCs, which replaces
an overly complicated system to make deckers into NPCs. :-)

>Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle

An SR3 update of an SR1 book, with lots of new material.

>Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download

The first book focussed on the economics of corporations; the second one
focusses more on the megas themselves. I see them as complementary, not
one as the rewrite of another.

>I know the need to update the material, but
>there seems to be a lack of new material. So
>what are other opinions on this topic?

I find there to be plenty of new material in the new FASA books.
You might want to try re-reading the old and new ones at one sitting
to pay attention to the differences.

--
%% Max Rible % slothman@*********.org % http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "This episode of Sorcery Street was brought to you by the letter Omega, %%
%% the number 13, and the element of Air." - me %%
Message no. 4
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 17:50:53 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> >Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
> >
> We've had 10 years of plot and major changes to the city.
personally, I look at this as a Story update book, rather than a simple
"new edition". You want to get a feel for all the major storylines that
have happened in SR over the last few years (Corp War, Mob War,
Election, Renraku), this book can give you the basics, and how they
relate to the "Core" city setting for Shadowrun, Seattle. Once again,
an update book that was badly needed. I haven;t even looked at the old
Seattle Sourcebook in 3 or 4 years, it was so out of date.
<Snippage(TM)>
> Bull

Bravo, Bull!

I don't care to comment on the rest of what was said here - at this
time - as I haven't read the previous posts yet (silly Yahoo mailer,
y'know). But I've seen a lot of people bagging New Seattle because it
"doesn't have the maps" and it "doesn't have the detail" of the old
one. What Bull said is what I've been trying to tell them for ages. New
Seattle is NOT meant to replace the Seattle Sourcebook. It's NOT a
place setting in the vein of Tir Tairngire or London or Germany. It's
designed to UPDATE a current setting, covering all the different
happenings that've gone on over the last ten years. You can't look at
it in the same way as you do the Seattle Sourcebook. If you have any
experience with BattleTech, look at the "Thirty Year Sourcebook" (I
believe that's what it was called). That book compiled all the major
changes to the BattleTech setting in the last thirty years into one
place. THAT'S what New Seattle is trying to do for the most part. And
it does it well.

Meanwhile, it includes enough details on the different parts of the
city and how the different players operate and, for that matter,
certain individual, interesting sites, that's its easy for a starting
SR GM to pick it up and make Seattle come alive. If you really need
more details, there's always the Place Index in the back. Not as much
detail as the Seattle Sourcebook, sure, but how many times do I have to
say this? That's NOT what New Seattle was intended to provide in the
first place!

Think I'll stop now.

*Doc' presses the <end rant> button. After a moment his face stiffens
in horror and he punches it again and again. "God, no! It won't turn
off! NnNNNNnnnnNnNOOOOoooOOooooOOOOOOoOoOoOOOoooOOOOoooooOOOOOO!!!!!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 5
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 00:41:40 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Bull."
] I don't know what else you could ask for, really... Shadowrun has one of
] those few game worlds that is constantly evolving, that has a moving and
] dynamic storyline, and that has a game system that is always working to
] impore itself (Through its writers, at least :)).

Damn right...I collect these books just to read the darn things
('course, I'd play if I could). Shadowrun is anything but stagnant...

-Murder of One
Message no. 6
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:58:09 EDT
In a message dated 7/8/99 8:48:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> If you have any
> experience with BattleTech, look at the "Thirty Year Sourcebook" (I
> believe that's what it was called).


It was the 20 Year Update. Close enough. :-)



-Twist
Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:11:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > If you have any experience with BattleTech, look at the "Thirty
Year Sourcebook" (I believe that's what it was called).
>
>
> It was the 20 Year Update. Close enough. :-)
>
> -Twist

Just about.

Well, I think it was pretty good, considering I've only seen and
glanced over the damn thing once before, in a dimly lit second-hand
bookstore, quite a few years ago now. :)

*Doc's brain is all mushy, so you'll have to forgive the lack of
originality here. The only thing he can think of is a bunch of dragons
and elves singing "Happy Birthday". Weird...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 8
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 09:02:52 -0500
> Is it my imagination or has the production of
> new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
> it came out. Lately there has been nothing
> new except the rewriting of older books.
>
> Example:
>
> Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
> Grimoire - Grimoire 2
> Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows
> Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2
> Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2
> Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
> Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download
>
> I know the need to update the material, but
> there seems to be a lack of new material. So
> what are other opinions on this topic?
>
Get ready for everyone to hate you ;) I tried bringing this up a couple
months back and got jumped. Not to mention lots of people told me, "If you
don't like it, don't play." Like you'd mention it if you didn't want to
play.

Get your hard hat, the trenches are about to fill with blood.
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 03:29:31 -0500
:Is it my imagination or has the production of
:new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
:it came out. Lately there has been nothing
:new except the rewriting of older books.

It is your imagination- or rather, its your lack of attention. In fact,
over the years, production has picked up (slightly?) frequency-of-release
wise, I think- if just because products are not usually released quite as
late as they used to be.

:Example:
:
:Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
:Grimoire - Grimoire 2

old, Old, OLD news... those are Sr1 > Sr2 products!

:Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows

Awakenings is not comparable to MiTS. Awakenings and G2, almost, but still
not quite, cover the same amount of rules as MiTS. Admitedly, its not all
new (conceptually) if you have the old stuff, but its a damn nice package,
and a great addition to Sr3. And some of it IS brand new- I just started
playing a wu-jen character, for example.

:Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2
:Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2

Both are so amazingly overhauled as to be unrecognizable except as books
with similar topics, and contain large amounts of new info.

:Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
:Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download


Corp Download is nothing like Corp Shadowfiles, again, except in genral
topic.

You also forgot, just in the past few years, PoAD, Underworld Sourcebook,
T:UCAS, T:SH, Cyberpirates, Threats, Cybertechnolgy, and a decent number of
adventures. Among those were R:AS, Mob War, and Blood in the Boardroom-
like them or not, both conatined a fair bit of "new material" as far as
world events go. "Bug City" comes somwhere early in there, too...
Going back further, there's Lone Star, Corporate Security Handbook, Germany
Sourcebook, London Sourcebook, Tir xxxxxx, and more, plus LOADS of
adventures.
I think if you looked at every SR product released in the past 5 years,
you'd not find that the majority were "re-hash".

:I know the need to update the material, but
:there seems to be a lack of new material. So
:what are other opinions on this topic?

Very few sourcebooks and no adventures have gone through "re-write", and
those have fairly constistanly composed about 1/2 of the SR line each year.
For any gameline, In a year where a new edition comes out, there's obviously
going to be revised versions of other books. I think FASA has done a good
job of keeping the ball rolling on totally new products in the past few
years, and will pick that up with renewed vigor as soon as they have thier
"core" sourcebooks (which, if MiTS is a indicator, are very good) lined up.

Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 16:04:19 -0700 (PDT)
Well I usually dont buy any modules just the
sourcebooks, and I understand about updating
timeline and material. But this year the
products are mostly updates to existing material.

MITS - Grimoire 2, Awakenings. A little extra
Man & Machine - Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, who
knows?
The Cannon Companion - SS2, FoF, who knows?

The production in the bringing compared today
has slowed down.

PS This is not attack on FASA so calm down.
Just an opinion.

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 11
From: Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 17:31:37 -0600
At 16:04 7/9/99 -0700, Jyster Cap wrote:
>
>Well I usually dont buy any modules just the
>sourcebooks, and I understand about updating
>timeline and material. But this year the
>products are mostly updates to existing material.
>
>MITS - Grimoire 2, Awakenings. A little extra
>Man & Machine - Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, who
> knows?
>The Cannon Companion - SS2, FoF, who knows?

You've conveniently forgotten the upcoming Corporate adventure, based on
Corporate Download, as well as Year of a Comet (If it makes it out this
year), and New Seattle. Not to mention First Run, and the upcoming Quick
Start rules (Which are likely not something you'll want to game with, but I
know I'll feel happy pointing someone towards a $8 book as opposed to a $30
book, when they're curious about SR.)

I understand that you don't buy adventures, but IMO they're more necessary
products to have around during a "growth cycle" than the more typical
books. Too much change in the game world while players are still getting
acquainted with it is NOT a good thing, and that's what a typical FASA
"Plot of the year" book does.

Yeah, there's been repeated material this year. It's a year of expanding
growth and consolidating material for FASA, they've admitted that much
already. It's rather hard to get new people to play your game when some of
the *core* sourcebooks were made 7 years ago, for first edition.

>The production in the bringing compared today
>has slowed down.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this, but the Shadowrun end of FASA
has put out a product every month since last December, as August will be
the first month they don't put out a product. They're heading towards
putting out more SR books than they ever have had in a year, and that's
including handling the increased demand and work that SR3 has created.

By the end of this year, the SR2 -> SR3 updating will be finished, and then
things will be back to normal, with the increased confidence of the FASA
team, plus more people playing the game. Then people will be bitching if
FASA puts out 10 new books, because "There's just too much stuff coming
out!". With the way the industry has been lately, we should all be damned
thankful for FASAs success.

>PS This is not attack on FASA so calm down.
>Just an opinion.

Well, when you state your opinion, people who have a different opinion than
you are generally going to tell you what they think, especially when you
ask for their opinions as you did in your original post.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
Message no. 12
From: Bahamut Mighty Dragon Lord bahamut@**.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:11:56 -0400
On Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:03 PM, Jyster Cap [SMTP:jyster007@*****.com]
wrote:
> Is it my imagination or has the production of
> new products for Shadowrun slowed down since
> it came out. Lately there has been nothing
> new except the rewriting of older books.
>
> Example:
>
> Street Samurai - Street Samurai 2
> Grimoire - Grimoire 2
> Awakenings - Magic in the Shadows
> Rigger Black Book - Rigger 2
> Virtual Realities - Virtual Realites 2
> Seatle Sourcebook - New Seatle
> Corporate Book (?) - Corporate Download

Since they are in the middle of converting from SR2 rules to SR3 their is
going to be a lot of time to wramp up the accessorie books so they can be
used in SR3 world.

This would be the same as saying I use windows 3.1 why dont you write any
new programs for it, why is everythjing your writing newer versions of
office for the new platform. It just takes a little time to complete the
cut over their are several new books looming on the future with great
promise.

>
> I know the need to update the material, but
> there seems to be a lack of new material. So
> what are other opinions on this topic?
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
Message no. 13
From: The Phantom phantom023@*******.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 03:32:46 GMT
OK chummers. We are truly missing the blessing in all of this discussion
about new Shadowrun books just being rehashed.

At least they never put out another Shadowbeat.

Count blessings...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Phantom~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A decker with a shotgun beats four aces anyday."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~Evil Geniuses for a Better Tomorrow~~~~~~~~~~~~~


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Message no. 14
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 23:39:22 EDT
In a message dated 7/11/99 11:34:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
phantom023@*******.com writes:

> OK chummers. We are truly missing the blessing in all of this discussion
> about new Shadowrun books just being rehashed.
>
> At least they never put out another Shadowbeat.
>
> Count blessings...


Man, if you could hear Mulvihill's opinion on Shadowbeat.....Ouch.
Personally, I liked the view of the media and the brainwashing technique, but
the rules for playing muscians and all the sim/recording/stereo gear seemed
excessive, if not brainnumbing. Only Hume's skill as a writer saved it from
being as difficult to slog through as all the Seattle Sourcebook
descriptions, and even then Shadowbeat strained tolerance. It was a good
idea for a sourcebook, though, and about half of it was truly fun. I have
never seen nor heard of a player using a media/musician/reporter character,
though, so I tend to think of those early alternate campaign ideas as kinda
useless. (Not to say that the SRComp alternates were any better, other than
for background.)





-Twist
Message no. 15
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: New Products
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:42:15 +1000
On shadowrn@*********.org, The Phantom[SMTP:phantom023@*******.com]
wrote:
> OK chummers. We are truly missing the blessing in all of this
discussion
> about new Shadowrun books just being rehashed.
> At least they never put out another Shadowbeat.
> Count blessings...

Quick! Burn the heretic! :) (joke :)

Most people around here have realised (years later) that Shadowbeat is
one of the best books in terms of game background. It may not give you
any ideas for PCs, but it adds a LOT of colour to the game universe, and
for that, it has become one of the most sort after books here on RN.
I've even seen it referred to as the Uberbook :)

I think that a lot of people here would be delighted if FASA updated and
reprinted Shadowbeat, or something of a similar nature.

cheers
G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 16
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: New Products
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:48:39 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Geoff Skellams."
] Quick! Burn the heretic! :) (joke :)
]
] Most people around here have realised (years later) that Shadowbeat is
] one of the best books in terms of game background. It may not give you
] any ideas for PCs, but it adds a LOT of colour to the game universe, and
] for that, it has become one of the most sort after books here on RN.
] I've even seen it referred to as the Uberbook :)
]
] I think that a lot of people here would be delighted if FASA updated and
] reprinted Shadowbeat, or something of a similar nature.

It hardly needs to be...if what everyone likes it for is the
background and atmosphere, then why update it for 3rd Ed.? Just
reprint it...that'd be cheaper, right, so it might happen (OR PUT IT ON
CD!!! CEEEE DEEEEE!!!!!!!).

-Murder of One
Message no. 17
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:54:01 +1000
Geoff Skellams writes:
> I think that a lot of people here would be delighted if FASA updated and
> reprinted Shadowbeat, or something of a similar nature.

But then we couldn't turn around and say that the answer to any given
question is in ShadowBeat, and snigger.

Seriously, though... do a keyword search in the archives for the word
"Shadowbeat", and you'd be surprised at how often people ask questions about
stuff covered in that book. Nearly everytime the question is answered, the
person asking slinks away mumbling "I thought it was only about rockers and
stuff..." :)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 18
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: New Products
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:04:06 +1000
Scott Wheelcock writes:
> It hardly needs to be...if what everyone likes it for is the
> background and atmosphere, then why update it for 3rd Ed.? Just
> reprint it...that'd be cheaper, right, so it might happen (OR PUT IT ON
> CD!!! CEEEE DEEEEE!!!!!!!).

They had a bunch of equipment that needs Availability and Street Index, and
they had some weapons and armour (for Urban Brawl/Combat Biker) that needs
to be updated.

They'd also want to change the cover art... hands down the worst cover of
any FASA product.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about New Products, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!