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Message no. 1
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:22:38 EST
Mike, Steve, you are both getting this just for you own generic information...


In a message dated 2/6/1999 3:46:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
anders@**********.COM writes:

>
> I just picked up the Seattle II book. No review yet, but NO map of
> downtown
> Seattle, and NO real street address for the Renraku Archology (1 Renaku
Ave,
> or whatever, indeed). Some selected shorts from the old Lone Star book, and
> out. Not even as exhaustive as the old Seattle book. --Anders

Okay, I'm doing the no-no of reading/reviewing. Reading it backwards (not
literally, but you probably know what I mean). I really enjoy the tidbits of
the political information, as well as the expansion/update concerning the
criminal information about the Mafia, Yaks, Gangs, Rings...etc...

I also like the list of the megacorporations that are involved in the United
Corporate Council for Seattle, as well as the tidbit information concerning
each members immediate, Seattle, concerns.

I think I'm agreeing, in that a fair portion of the book is updating the
information that has existed in the previous books (Lone Star, Seattle,
Aztlan, Tir Tairngire(sp?), Bug City, Super Tuesday, Threats, etc....). And
yes, I've found stuff that is referenciable to all of those (Empowerment
Coalition??!!?? Gack!!!). Sure, it would have been nice to have maps and
such, but after I thought about it, it occurred to me that due to the events
of "the Awakening", the cities that make the Seattle Sprawl haven't really
been able to expand into their outward regions very much. Hence, a map of
Seattle and it's surrounding "suburbs" is more than adequate for the purposes,
and even gets a group to think/plan more IMO.

As for addresses Anders, I don't know, I really think that having that kind of
stuff in the index form in the back is nice. I personally at least, do not
give a $hit what the address for the Arc is. Any pilot-capable character (up
to and including rollerbladers ;) don't have a negative intelligence, and
hence won't be able to miss it when they visit... 8-P

Admittedly, I am still seeing a loose variation on "leading the clients" with
the FASA books format. It's cool that you, and the apparently others at FASA
Corp, believe your players are more intelligent than other game universe
players (simply because the material presented is nicely written (even if I
did find at least 7 editing errors just by skimming so far), but you are as
yet NOT giving to the fact that several players need to be damn near hand
fed/led into doing something.

Come on folks, adventure hooks are nice, but they are not NICE! They lead us,
as players/GMs into giving or creating stuff that eventually gets changed or
altered by FASA further down the road. It would be nice, just once in a
while, to have *something* defined as more than a tidbit. Sure, the infights
between the O'Malley's and the Bigio's is cool (and may effect certain games
here at HHH ;), but something I didn't find beyond Underworld (and even this
I'm not certain yet) is where "Uncle Al" came from. Information on him (this
is an example btw) is lacking, but what he gives us in New Seattle is
*AWESOME* IMNSFHO, and is just the kind of "hand leading" for some player/gm
types that I am referring to. More than a tidbit, but not every detail.

I am going to be going through the City/District stuff over the next couple of
days, so you're all likely to hear more about my rantings after that point...

-K

(Padre' is *still* going to hunt and kill someone, something, *ANYTHING*....to
get what he wants... ;-)
Message no. 2
From: Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:17:54 -0800
-----Original Message-----
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:24 AM
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)


>Mike, Steve, you are both getting this just for you own generic
information...
>
>
>In a message dated 2/6/1999 3:46:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>anders@**********.COM writes:
>
>>
>> I just picked up the Seattle II book. No review yet, but NO map of
>> downtown
>> Seattle, and NO real street address for the Renraku Archology (1 Renaku
>Ave,
>> or whatever, indeed). Some selected shorts from the old Lone Star book,
and
>> out. Not even as exhaustive as the old Seattle book. --Anders
>
...
>As for addresses Anders, I don't know, I really think that having that kind
of
>stuff in the index form in the back is nice. I personally at least, do not
>give a $hit what the address for the Arc is. Any pilot-capable character
(up
>to and including rollerbladers ;) don't have a negative intelligence, and
>hence won't be able to miss it when they visit... 8-P
...
My point is this: I'm a map freak, and I'm a get-it-right freak. I
downloaded a sattelite image of downtown Seattle with the purpose of taking
my handy art program and faking in the various "improvements" made by the
asembled megacorps, notably the various towers and pyramids. This is
complicated by the fact that I still haven't got a handle on where in the
#$(& the Arc's fat footprint is. I can't find my 1st ed SR for the map. I
was HOPING that along with the recycled AAA maps, FASA could have stretched
their art budget to give a little downtown sketch map so that 'runners
commuting between the Arc and the Pyramid would know the hazards while they
play dodgem cars with Lonestar, and so the EGM could trip them via the
map. --Anders
Message no. 3
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:54:50 -0600
On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:17:54 -0800 Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>This is
>complicated by the fact that I still haven't got a handle on where in
the
>#$(& the Arc's fat footprint is. I can't find my 1st ed SR for the map.
I
>was HOPING that along with the recycled AAA maps, FASA could have
stretched
>their art budget to give a little downtown sketch map so that 'runners
>commuting between the Arc and the Pyramid would know the hazards while
they
>play dodgem cars with Lonestar, and so the EGM could trip them via the
>map. --Anders

Try tracking down a copy of the original Seatle Sourcebook. It's map
shows the Arcology as well as the Aztechnology pyramid.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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Message no. 4
From: Andy Mathews <AndMat3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:47:24 EST
In a message dated 2/7/99 11:24:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ereskanti@***.COM
writes:

<<SNIPAGE... it was a review and then comment... they were both
interesting... you all read them (i hope).>>

My point is this - (1) they cut most of the maps (there are TWO whole
maps in the book); (2) they cut ALL the atmosphere building color
plates and (3) they cut 45 pages (not including the aforementioned
pages).

how do you have a location that is called (in the book) the "crown jewel
of the shadowrun universe"; have TEN years of stories, plots and play-
testing about that location and CUT the size of your sourcebook.

i'm not totally through the book - i do like what i have read so far. I really
like the section of "gangs of <insert area>" and i like the "index of
places
in the back. I was just looking for more. and i miss the maps and the color
plates - they added feel to the game.

my solution - photocopy the maps (from your own Old Seattle book) and keep
them with your New Seattle book. But DON'T photocopy someone else's
Old Seattle Maps.

later,
andy
Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:22:38 EST
Mike, Steve, you are both getting this just for you own generic information...


In a message dated 2/6/1999 3:46:41 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
anders@**********.COM writes:

>
> I just picked up the Seattle II book. No review yet, but NO map of
> downtown
> Seattle, and NO real street address for the Renraku Archology (1 Renaku
Ave,
> or whatever, indeed). Some selected shorts from the old Lone Star book, and
> out. Not even as exhaustive as the old Seattle book. --Anders

Okay, I'm doing the no-no of reading/reviewing. Reading it backwards (not
literally, but you probably know what I mean). I really enjoy the tidbits of
the political information, as well as the expansion/update concerning the
criminal information about the Mafia, Yaks, Gangs, Rings...etc...

I also like the list of the megacorporations that are involved in the United
Corporate Council for Seattle, as well as the tidbit information concerning
each members immediate, Seattle, concerns.

I think I'm agreeing, in that a fair portion of the book is updating the
information that has existed in the previous books (Lone Star, Seattle,
Aztlan, Tir Tairngire(sp?), Bug City, Super Tuesday, Threats, etc....). And
yes, I've found stuff that is referenciable to all of those (Empowerment
Coalition??!!?? Gack!!!). Sure, it would have been nice to have maps and
such, but after I thought about it, it occurred to me that due to the events
of "the Awakening", the cities that make the Seattle Sprawl haven't really
been able to expand into their outward regions very much. Hence, a map of
Seattle and it's surrounding "suburbs" is more than adequate for the purposes,
and even gets a group to think/plan more IMO.

As for addresses Anders, I don't know, I really think that having that kind of
stuff in the index form in the back is nice. I personally at least, do not
give a $hit what the address for the Arc is. Any pilot-capable character (up
to and including rollerbladers ;) don't have a negative intelligence, and
hence won't be able to miss it when they visit... 8-P

Admittedly, I am still seeing a loose variation on "leading the clients" with
the FASA books format. It's cool that you, and the apparently others at FASA
Corp, believe your players are more intelligent than other game universe
players (simply because the material presented is nicely written (even if I
did find at least 7 editing errors just by skimming so far), but you are as
yet NOT giving to the fact that several players need to be damn near hand
fed/led into doing something.

Come on folks, adventure hooks are nice, but they are not NICE! They lead us,
as players/GMs into giving or creating stuff that eventually gets changed or
altered by FASA further down the road. It would be nice, just once in a
while, to have *something* defined as more than a tidbit. Sure, the infights
between the O'Malley's and the Bigio's is cool (and may effect certain games
here at HHH ;), but something I didn't find beyond Underworld (and even this
I'm not certain yet) is where "Uncle Al" came from. Information on him (this
is an example btw) is lacking, but what he gives us in New Seattle is
*AWESOME* IMNSFHO, and is just the kind of "hand leading" for some player/gm
types that I am referring to. More than a tidbit, but not every detail.

I am going to be going through the City/District stuff over the next couple of
days, so you're all likely to hear more about my rantings after that point...

-K

(Padre' is *still* going to hunt and kill someone, something, *ANYTHING*....to
get what he wants... ;-)
Message no. 6
From: Bill Thompson BillT@*********.com
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:21:05 -0800
On 2/7/99 K in the Shadows wrote:

<Long New Seattle review from old list deleted>

I pretty much agree with K on the book. It is laid out very nicely and has
some new info, but the bulk seems to be reprinted from other OOP books. The
layout and convenience of New Seattle makes up for this, as long as FASA
doesn't go the way of Paladium books where 3/4 of each sourcebook has
reprinted info from other sourcebooks.

Unlike K I rather liked the adventure hooks. It gives specific ideas for each
neighborhood that I wouldn't have thought of on my own. As far as FASA
changing or altering these events down the road, that's the risk of playing
Shadowrun strictly according to the timeline.

K said:
> I am going to be going through the City/District stuff over the next couple
>of
> days, so you're all likely to hear more about my rantings after that point...

I'll beat you to the punch here: Ballard is a upper middle class neighborhood?
BWAHAHAHAHA! For those of you who are not familiar with the Ballard district,
it is famous for it's population of white trash punks, retired fishermen, and
bad drivers. There must have been some serious renovation done in the next 60
years.

Bill Thompson - Mahagonny.com
On the Internet there are no independent agents.
Message no. 7
From: NEWSHADOW@***.com NEWSHADOW@***.com
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:35:37 EST
In a message dated 2/8/99 3:21:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
BillT@*********.com writes:

> I'll beat you to the punch here: Ballard is a upper middle class
neighborhood?
>
> BWAHAHAHAHA! For those of you who are not familiar with the Ballard
district,
>
> it is famous for it's population of white trash punks, retired fishermen,
> and
> bad drivers. There must have been some serious renovation done in the next
> 60
> years.

Don't forget the fact that they are norwegian and all old.

NewShadow
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/6852/index.html
Message no. 8
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:10:42 EST
In a message dated 2/8/1999 6:21:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
BillT@*********.com writes:

>
> I'll beat you to the punch here: Ballard is a upper middle class
> neighborhood?
> BWAHAHAHAHA! For those of you who are not familiar with the Ballard
district,
>
> it is famous for it's population of white trash punks, retired fishermen,
> and
> bad drivers. There must have been some serious renovation done in the next
> 60
> years.

Ah, well that is something I wouldn't have known, so you can have that punch
line...
;-P

-K
Message no. 9
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: New Seattle (Review?)
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:06:05 -0600
:> BWAHAHAHAHA! For those of you who are not familiar with the Ballard
:district,
:>
:> it is famous for it's population of white trash punks, retired
fishermen,
:> and
:> bad drivers. There must have been some serious renovation done in the
next
:> 60
:> years.


Well, in fact, I and Rob Boyle live in Chicago's "Wicker Park".
(That's "Wicked Park" in SR/ bug city parlance). 10 years ago, this
neighborhood was nothing but Polish furniture shops, Mexican immigrants,
white trash, and punk rock junkies (Skinny Puppies "to dark park" is about
scoring smack in WP).
Today, you can't walk a 100 feet without finding a swank restaurant or
new condo. Rents regularly exceed $1200 a month for a 2 bedroom. Its
still mixed income, and there are still gang shootings, but might not be
in another ten years. Hell, my new roommate works at the mercantile
exchange... and my upstairs neighbor was shot in thew street 4 months
ago... The old anarchist book store is now a wine bar... I didn't
recognize half the building on a street I walked down yesterday, because I
hadn't been there for a year...
My point- "Seroius renovation" takes nothing LIKE 60 years. It just
takes a bunch or real-estate companies getting together and deciding an
area is now "trendy" and intentionally courting the proper businesses.

Mongoose

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