Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:38:07 -0500

Message no. 1 Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0 sourcebook,
and still ignore the rest of the world.

Great.............
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:52:34 +0000

Message no. 2 > Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0 sourcebook,
> and still ignore the rest of the world.
>
> Great.............

They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
something ...

A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
should be the center of the universe ?

/Stefan
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 15:03:21 -0500

Message no. 3 At 09:52 PM 8/13/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:

>They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
>the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
>something ...

Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia? I'm sure
that'd sell _really_ well. Maybe into the teans!

>A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
>should be the center of the universe ?

The original authors. Seattle was pretty much a blank city back in 88-89
when Sr first came out. Most other city's people already had preconcieved
notions off. But Seattle? WTF happens in Seattle? Well, now it's music,
but that wasn't big 8-9 years ago.

And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?

So the answer to place books becomes: if a publisher in a country wants to
make one, and they get permission from FASA, they can. And if FASA likes
it, then it'll get translated and published. If they don't like it, then
it just stays for that country. That's what happened with the Germany
sourcebook.

People who are complaining about place books (and I'd really like to see
something done with Australia, I'm behind you all on this one, even if I
see the logic behind _not_ doing it) are going to have to realize that FASA
won't write it if it's not going to make money. Place books don't sell.
Target books hopefully will. T:UCAS sold well (I think) and so, hopefully,
will the rest. If stuff on Australia (or anywhere else) can be fit into
one of those books, and FASA think's it'll sell, then it'll probably get
released.

Not that FASA is infallible on what'll sell or what's good. I mean, they
published Prime Runners, didn't they? :)

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	"Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:52:11 -0500

Message no. 4 You wrote:
> A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
> should be the center of the universe ?
I think Seattle was chosen for a couple of reasons: west-coast makes it easy to
involve Asian corps and the Yakuza, Seattle's status in the northwest makes it
something of a 'frontier', and an unusual place because of its status as an
outpost due to the Treaty of Denver... And it's a city that was not already
used in some other RPG, a bit out-of-the-way, and so didn't have any
connotations to overcome.

losthalo

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:45:07 +0100

Message no. 5 In article <01IMECHVBO5K9QUT48@******.acs.muohio.edu>, "Wendy Wanders,
Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> rambled on endlessly about
New Seattle Sourcebook?
>You wrote:
>> A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
>> should be the center of the universe ?
>I think Seattle was chosen for a couple of reasons: west-coast makes it easy to
>involve Asian corps and the Yakuza, Seattle's status in the northwest makes it
>something of a 'frontier', and an unusual place because of its status as an
>outpost due to the Treaty of Denver... And it's a city that was not already
>used in some other RPG, a bit out-of-the-way, and so didn't have any
>connotations to overcome.

*Slightly* wrong. Some Cyberpunk material is based in Seattle, Dark
Conspiracy linked Seattle and Vancouver into Seacouver, Conspiracy X
uses Seattle... so Shadowrun is not unique in this choice I'm afraid.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:43:27 +0100

Message no. 6 In article <3.0.32.19970813150320.00927880@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> rambled on about New Seattle Sourcebook?
>At 09:52 PM 8/13/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
>
>>They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
>>the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
>>something ...
>
>Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia? I'm sure
>that'd sell _really_ well. Maybe into the teans!

Not being funny Mike, but Shadowrun source material does state that some
of the best chop shops for cyberware are in Scandanavia, which means
there's a _lot_ of money there, plus the whole area is on the borders of
Europe and the Russian Federation (or whatever the hell FASA call it
now) and those _huge_ toxic and awakened zones ... :) I mean, I'd run
a campaign up there... but then I'm wierd anyway. :)

Shadowrun Safari anyone?

>And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
>Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
>it'll sell?

It'll sell, no doubt about that. Seattle has been horribly static with
nary a mention in any other book for several years now. I can't really
find an objection to this, and will look forward to it's release,

Hey now here's an idea... maybe a Denver 2.0 and Big City 2.0 and
California Free State 2.0, hell let's base Shadowrun on ST:TNG "To
boldly go where we've been before".... :)

>One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
>you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
>other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
>won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
>northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?

Not having heard as many objections as from others, I'm not sure they
noticed. <g>

Noted and agreed though, My and a couple of others views regarding the
London Sourcebook (why couldn't it have stayed a city sourcebook, it was
good until it left London)... and Gurths opinions of FASA's fate of the
Netherlands, and Germany. Oh yeah I agree with you. But I think I know
the answer to that problem, though it would never be accepted as a
viable solution of course, again because of costs.

>So the answer to place books becomes: if a publisher in a country wants to
>make one, and they get permission from FASA, they can.

Unfortunately, for some strange reason, the UK doesn't have a publisher,
so we over here, and I suspect other parts of the world, have to wait on
the US releases of material.

>And if FASA likes
>it, then it'll get translated and published. If they don't like it, then
>it just stays for that country. That's what happened with the Germany
>sourcebook.

And it looks like we'll never see the Japanese sourcebook from what the
Japanese fans have been saying about it. As for the Italian sourcebook,
hmmm... we can only wait and see.

>People who are complaining about place books (and I'd really like to see
>something done with Australia, I'm behind you all on this one, even if I
>see the logic behind _not_ doing it)

Although there are obviously logistical, financial and profit oriented
reasons for such decisions, it still rankles.

>are going to have to realize that FASA
>won't write it if it's not going to make money. Place books don't sell.
>Target books hopefully will. T:UCAS sold well (I think) and so, hopefully,
>will the rest. If stuff on Australia (or anywhere else) can be fit into
>one of those books, and FASA think's it'll sell, then it'll probably get
>released.

We shall see. I personally was disappointed with Target:UCAS, I didn't
feel it lived up to it's promises, but it was a first for this type of
thing, and I can forgive FASA for the mistakes they make with this new
concept. Improvements in future Target books, are expected. If they
end up detailing the rest of the world in a series of 60 books, covering
different topics, then fine. But please let's have value for money, and
sensible, well thought out "update" books. Not just a thin book that
comes across as a slightly rushed reference index.
>
>Not that FASA is infallible on what'll sell or what's good. I mean, they
>published Prime Runners, didn't they? :)

Snigger....

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

From:	Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 01:29:09 +0100

Message no. 7 In article <3.0.1.32.19970813143807.007b5a30@***.iquest.net>, Jaymz
<justin@******.NET> rambled on endlessly about New Seattle Sourcebook?
>Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0 sourcebook,
>and still ignore the rest of the world.
>
>Great.............

I'd not heard about the Seattle 2 sourcebook. But I'm afraid that we're
just going to have to accept that American self importance is going to
deny the existence of the rest of the world as a viable prospect for
anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

From:	John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:11:22 EDT

Message no. 8 On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:38:07 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0
>sourcebook,
>and still ignore the rest of the world.
>
>Great.............

Yeah, but Seattle is pretty much the default setting for this game. The
greater majority of the people really do play in Seattle, and the Seattle
sourcebook is probably one of the only place books that sold/sells at all
well. As such, it is long overdue for an overhaul and an update.

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:39:19 -0800

Message no. 9 >Yeah, but Seattle is pretty much the default setting for this game. The
>greater majority of the people really do play in Seattle, and the Seattle
>sourcebook is probably one of the only place books that sold/sells at all
>well. As such, it is long overdue for an overhaul and an update.

The Seattle Sourcebook was crappy as hell... It was more like Target:
Bars, Restaurants, and Businesses of the Seattle Sprawl. I would've
liked to see it done like Denver (boxed set or not). A good map
would have been nice, real information would have been nice, etc.

I can just get my phone book and find places, it's cheaper. ;)

-Skye

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:51:49 -0400

Message no. 10 Stefan once dared to write,

>A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
>should be the center of the universe ?

High suicide rate (Highest in the U.S.A.) and gloomy weather. What
could be better for a cyberpunk backdrop. Dark idea I say, not bright.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23

From:	Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:54:50 +1000

Message no. 11 > >Yeah, but Seattle is pretty much the default setting for this game. The
> >greater majority of the people really do play in Seattle, and the Seattle
> >sourcebook is probably one of the only place books that sold/sells at all
> >well. As such, it is long overdue for an overhaul and an update.
>
> The Seattle Sourcebook was crappy as hell... It was more like Target:
> Bars, Restaurants, and Businesses of the Seattle Sprawl. I would've
> liked to see it done like Denver (boxed set or not). A good map
> would have been nice, real information would have been nice, etc.

Really? Well, I guess you'd know, being a native and all - but Seattle
always got my vote as my favourite sourcebook of the lot...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Kim Christiansen <kimc@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:21:22 +0100

Message no. 12 earlier, Stefan wrote:
> >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
> >something ...
> >A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
> >should be the center of the universe ?

then, Michael Broadwater replied,
> The original authors. Seattle was pretty much a blank city back in 88-89
> when Sr first came out. Most other city's people already had preconcieved
> notions off. But Seattle? WTF happens in Seattle? Well, now it's music,
> but that wasn't big 8-9 years ago.

start rant task
...of course, you realize, I must respond to this inane remark :)
WTF happens in Seattle?
Well, try all of those airplanes you fly aropund on...
Try one of the largest import/export economies on the west coast...
Try the creator of the software I'd bet most of you have on your computers
(macs included)...
Try the earliest vestiges of VR outside of MIT at the Virtual Reality lab at
the UW...
Try the creators of internet cafes...
and all of that in gloomy weather (it hit 90 today, and there were the most
beautiful cloud stratus over the mountains this morining!)
Yes, I love Seattle, but even I have to admit that FASA needs to spend some
more time in Scandanavia, Russia, Africa, Australia and East Asia (Japan,
Thailand, Korea etc) rather than on a second version for Seattle.

As for Seattle being the center of the universe, you're close, but that
would clearly be the Ballard neighborhood within Seattle. Check out your
source book! :) (chuckles abound)

end rant task

one begins to wonder... do I ever do anything but rant?? oh yeah, I complain
too!

kim
aka Ardak Kumerian

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:22:45 -0500

Message no. 13 At 01:29 AM 8/14/97 +0100, you wrote:
#In article <3.0.1.32.19970813143807.007b5a30@***.iquest.net>, Jaymz
#<justin@******.NET> rambled on endlessly about New Seattle Sourcebook?
#>Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0 sourcebook,
#>and still ignore the rest of the world.
#>
#>Great.............
#
#I'd not heard about the Seattle 2 sourcebook. But I'm afraid that we're
#just going to have to accept that American self importance is going to
#deny the existence of the rest of the world as a viable prospect for
#anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
#volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
#not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.

Gotta love a country THAT ethnocentric!

It's like the world IS North America, unless there's something "cool" on
the outside, or some sort of war they can fight.
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:19:59 -0500

Message no. 14 At 01:43 AM 8/14/97 +0100, you wrote:
#
#Unfortunately, for some strange reason, the UK doesn't have a publisher,
#so we over here, and I suspect other parts of the world, have to wait on
#the US releases of material.
#

The Australian publisher seems to only print the BBB and import the rest.
so, I guess we'll never see a sourcebook based there.

Hmm, maybe someone could convince the publisher to publish one in
"Australian"!
;)
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:01:29 -0400

Message no. 15 Lady Jestyr once dared to write,

>Really? Well, I guess you'd know, being a native and all - but Seattle
>always got my vote as my favourite sourcebook of the lot...

It's got great ads! That helped give it a lot more real feel than
any of the other sourcebooks. Of course ads would be important to me. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:42:02 -0800

Message no. 16 >> The Seattle Sourcebook was crappy as hell... It was more like Target:
>> Bars, Restaurants, and Businesses of the Seattle Sprawl. I would've
>> liked to see it done like Denver (boxed set or not). A good map
>> would have been nice, real information would have been nice, etc.
>
>Really? Well, I guess you'd know, being a native and all - but Seattle
>always got my vote as my favourite sourcebook of the lot...

I don't get out much, you really shouldn't take my opinion as
Seattle native cannon. <g> I liked it the first time I read it,
then the pages started falling out (probably my fault...). I just
never found it all that useful game-wise. It's a good read and all,
just not something I use GM'ing or playing. I liked the section in
back of the BBB more... That's what compelled me to buy the thing
in the first place. "Hey cool, it's in Seattle!" The first story
deal was cool too. Read half the book in Barnes and Noble...

-Skye

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:39:44 -0800

Message no. 17 >Stefan once dared to write,
>
>>A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
>>should be the center of the universe ?
>
> High suicide rate (Highest in the U.S.A.) and gloomy weather. What
>could be better for a cyberpunk backdrop. Dark idea I say, not bright.

We have the highest suicide rate? Must be during the winter/fall
months... Weird... It's been sunny and hot as hell for the past
month, and I hate it. The house gets hots and stays hot until about
midnight, which makes sleeping a hard thing to do. So I sit
around and read SR and watch TV... Argh! Who wants to come up
here and help me raid an air conditioner factory?! ;)

-Skye

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Wed, 13 Aug 1997 22:46:59 -0800

Message no. 18 >start rant task

Yay... someone who can relate. <g>

>...of course, you realize, I must respond to this inane remark :)
>WTF happens in Seattle?

I wouldn't know, I don't get out much. Except to wash my car and
play Shadowrun...

>Try one of the largest import/export economies on the west coast...

We also have the shortest route to Japan, most people don't know that.
Hell, I didn't until a few years ago...

>Try the creator of the software I'd bet most of you have on your computers
>(macs included)...

They're just Microdeck in 205x... Poor IE (see.. Immortal Elf = Internet
Exploder, it even tries to take over you computer like an IE!)

>Try the creators of internet cafes...

I've never really been in one of those...

>and all of that in gloomy weather (it hit 90 today, and there were the most
>beautiful cloud stratus over the mountains this morining!)

We have great pink-orange sunsets, too. I took pictures of my car overlooking
that.

>As for Seattle being the center of the universe, you're close, but that
>would clearly be the Ballard neighborhood within Seattle. Check out your
>source book! :) (chuckles abound)

Ballard has a large Nordic community... They can talk about euro-people
in that section of SSB2. ;)

-Skye

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:02:38 +1000

Message no. 19 > Hey now here's an idea... maybe a Denver 2.0 and Big City 2.0 and
> California Free State 2.0, hell let's base Shadowrun on ST:TNG "To
> boldly go where we've been before".... :)
>

Rahter, Re-releasing sourcebooks seems a bit like Deep Space 9.

"To boldly stay where no man has stayed before".

> >People who are complaining about place books (and I'd really like to see
> >something done with Australia, I'm behind you all on this one, even if I
> >see the logic behind _not_ doing it)
>
> Although there are obviously logistical, financial and profit oriented
> reasons for such decisions, it still rankles.
>

And legal ones, too. There have been no shortage of offers to write
material, but FASA's had to stick to the orignal contract.

(I have to wonder how the author is feeling about the project after all
this time)

> >Not that FASA is infallible on what'll sell or what's good. I mean, they
> >published Prime Runners, didn't they? :)
>
> Snigger....
>

And Shadowbeat.

Marty

From:	"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:04:58 +1000

Message no. 20 > >Really? Well, I guess you'd know, being a native and all - but Seattle
> >always got my vote as my favourite sourcebook of the lot...
>
> I don't get out much, you really shouldn't take my opinion as
> Seattle native cannon. <g> I liked it the first time I read it,
> then the pages started falling out (probably my fault...). I just
> never found it all that useful game-wise. It's a good read and all,
> just not something I use GM'ing or playing. I liked the section in
> back of the BBB more... That's what compelled me to buy the thing
> in the first place. "Hey cool, it's in Seattle!" The first story
> deal was cool too. Read half the book in Barnes and Noble...
>

Best sorucebook ever?

Universal Brotherhood, without a doubt.

Marty

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:24:28 +0100

Message no. 21 Skye Comstock said on 22:39/13 Aug 97...

> Argh! Who wants to come up here and help me raid an air conditioner
> factory?! ;)

I do ! I volunteer! (As long as I can take one home with me, that is...)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...who hates heatwaves
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:24:28 +0100

Message no. 22 Michael Broadwater said on 15:03/13 Aug 97...

> The original authors. Seattle was pretty much a blank city back in 88-89
> when Sr first came out. Most other city's people already had preconcieved
> notions off. But Seattle? WTF happens in Seattle? Well, now it's music,
> but that wasn't big 8-9 years ago.

It was music five years ago, until Kurt Kobain shot himself, basically...

> And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
> Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
> it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
> you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
> other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
> won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
> northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?

Not to mention that people from the country the book is about are very
likely not to like the book either. Just look at all the cries like "The
England described in the London Sourcebook has nothing to do with the real
one!", "California isn't the way the CFS book says it is!", etc. etc. etc.

It seems it's virtually impossible to bring out a country sourcebook that
satisfies the natives, because for some reason everyone thinks nothing
would change in 60 years (despite the Awakening, the Crash of '29, and so
on). A good example is the mention of the "traditional rivalry" between
two universities. Someone pointed out that there isn't any rivalry at
all...

Not now, maybe, but who knows, maybe it'll begin in 2002? Americans have
this habit of calling a two-year-old habit a "tradition" ("The first
annual <whatever>" thing) so this can fit right in, can't it?

</rant>

I'll refrain myself from starting to talk about the way some writers feel
the need to almost kill off a country, though...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...who hates heatwaves
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:23:50 +0100

Message no. 23 |Try the creator of the software I'd bet most of you have on your computers
|(macs included)...

<Smug>

I don't.... And never will. They'll never take me alive!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

|As for Seattle being the center of the universe, you're close, but that
|would clearly be the Ballard neighborhood within Seattle. Check out your
|source book! :) (chuckles abound)

Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
happen to be sitting at the time.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:41:29 -0400

Message no. 24 Gurth once dared to write,

>Skye Comstock said on 22:39/13 Aug 97...
>
>> Argh! Who wants to come up here and help me raid an air conditioner
>> factory?! ;)
>
>I do ! I volunteer! (As long as I can take one home with me, that is...)

The air conditioner or the factory? B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:45:48 -0400

Message no. 25 Skye Comstock once dared to write,

>We have the highest suicide rate?

Yep, and Washington D.C. has the highest murder rate. I guess it
depends on how you want to do you self in, are you a self-starter or do
you need help.
Of course those rates are a few years old so someone might have been
dethroned by now but I think those numbers will stay with us for a while.
Ya gotta keep up a tradition ya know.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"Boy, I'm in a bad mood today! Everyone had better steer clear of me! I
hate EVERYBODY! As far as I'm concerned, everyone on the planet can just
drop dead. People are scum.
.....
WELL-L-L? DOESN'T ANYONE WANT TO CHEER ME UP?!?"
-Calvin, Calvin and Hobbes
I am MC23

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:52:48 -0500

Message no. 26 At 01:29 AM 8/14/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:

>I'd not heard about the Seattle 2 sourcebook. But I'm afraid that we're
>just going to have to accept that American self importance is going to
>deny the existence of the rest of the world as a viable prospect for
>anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
>volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
>not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.

Gee, you're not bitter, are you? Don't forget that if the whatever place
book about whatever non-american country seems boring to you, it's one of
your own natives faults, not FASA's. They take submissions from ppl living
in that country. And if it sucks, well, at least ppl will stop bitching
about wanting this place book, or that place book. Now they can bitch
about how it sucks, and is totally wrong about their country, and how come
they didn't talk about this neat little town _which_ is so damn interesting
and would be just great for Sr. You don't like what FASA is doing? Fine.
Write a book that'll sell or start your own company and make just books
about Europe. Not gonna bother me.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:50:41 -0500

Message no. 27 At 12:23 PM 8/14/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
#
#Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
#Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
#happen to be sitting at the time.....

what a coincidence, same here
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:03:30 -0500

Message no. 28 At 09:21 PM 8/13/97 +0100, Kim Christiansen wrote:
>earlier, Stefan wrote:
>> >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
>> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
>> >something ...
>> >A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
>> >should be the center of the universe ?
>
>then, Michael Broadwater replied,
>> The original authors. Seattle was pretty much a blank city back in 88-89
>> when Sr first came out. Most other city's people already had preconcieved
>> notions off. But Seattle? WTF happens in Seattle? Well, now it's music,
>> but that wasn't big 8-9 years ago.
>
>start rant task

You caught me on a bad goddamn morning, and you're gonna pay.

<snip of dumb fucking remarks.>

Yeah, but <yell>WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT ABOUT THOSE 8-9 YEARS AGO?!?!?!!?</yell>

You did? Other natives. Well whoopty-fragging-do.

None of that is what people think about Seattle when they first hear it.
It doesn't matter what a city actually does, it matters what people think
about it. At least, as far as the creators of Sr were concerned when they
decided on Seattle as Sr's main city. And the reason's aren't my own

Seattle was a big freakin' blank slate that FASA could use, and they did,
and it worked. Yeah, it's on the pacific rim (so you get yaks, and triads,
and seoul men) and it's got MS (so you get lots of neat tech) and a port
(so there's tons of trade) but there are other cities in the US that will
any of those just as well. You can have tech, organized crime, and trade
in the large cities of the US. Why not New York? That's a lot of trade.
Also, a large mix of cultures. So, why Seattle?

Because people didn't have an impression of it preformed in their minds.
This let FASA do what they wanted.

And get of your high goddamn horse. Seattle ain't the center of the
Universe by a stretch. Haven to corporate tyrants (MS, WotC) yes. Center,
no.

Try and figure out what sarcasm is, btw, before you reply to any of my
posts again. "WTF is Seattle?" Are you too dense to figure out what I was
trying to get across? From your post, I'd have to say so.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:09:53 -0500

Message no. 29 At 12:23 PM 8/14/97 +0100, Spike wrote:

>Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
>Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
>happen to be sitting at the time.....

Spike, you're getting "center" and "ass end" confused again.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:22:03 +0100

Message no. 30 |Spike, you're getting "center" and "ass end" confused again.

OOO look... Over there!!!

##### # # # # ## #####
# # # # # # # # #
# ###### # # # # # #
# # # # ## # ###### #####
# # # ## ## # # #
# # # # # # # #

Caught ya!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Fri, 15 Aug 1997 00:37:34 +1000

Message no. 31 At 20:39 13/08/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:
>The Seattle Sourcebook was crappy as hell... It was more like Target:
>Bars, Restaurants, and Businesses of the Seattle Sprawl. I would've
>liked to see it done like Denver (boxed set or not). A good map
>would have been nice, real information would have been nice, etc.

I, however, like it - my second copy is in pieces. I've also recently
ordered, from amazon.com, some present day references on Seattle bars,
restaurants and businesses just to further explore the flavour of the place.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:57:31 -0800

Message no. 32 >You caught me on a bad goddamn morning, and you're gonna pay.
>
><snip of dumb fucking remarks.>
>
>Yeah, but <yell>WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT ABOUT THOSE 8-9 YEARS
AGO?!?!?!!?</yell>

Boy, you're a dumbass, if I say so myself.

>You did? Other natives. Well whoopty-fragging-do.

Jesus... did someone take your coffee?

>None of that is what people think about Seattle when they first hear it.
>It doesn't matter what a city actually does, it matters what people think
>about it. At least, as far as the creators of Sr were concerned when they
>decided on Seattle as Sr's main city. And the reason's aren't my own

A lot of people think different things. Scientists could think, "Oh,
yes, Seattle, they have a lot of bio-engineering going on there." Etc,
etc. Very few think, "What the hell is in Seattle?" "They play
grunge, don't they?" :P

>Seattle was a big freakin' blank slate that FASA could use, and they did,
>and it worked. Yeah, it's on the pacific rim (so you get yaks, and triads,
>and seoul men) and it's got MS (so you get lots of neat tech) and a port
>(so there's tons of trade) but there are other cities in the US that will
>any of those just as well. You can have tech, organized crime, and trade
>in the large cities of the US. Why not New York? That's a lot of trade.
>Also, a large mix of cultures. So, why Seattle?

Yeah, sorry, it's a good setting for a game.

>Because people didn't have an impression of it preformed in their minds.
>This let FASA do what they wanted.

Oh... That MUST be the reason.

>And get of your high goddamn horse. Seattle ain't the center of the
>Universe by a stretch. Haven to corporate tyrants (MS, WotC) yes. Center,
>no.

Sorry, baby, you must live in Uppityville, the known center of your
little world.

>Try and figure out what sarcasm is, btw, before you reply to any of my
>posts again. "WTF is Seattle?" Are you too dense to figure out what I was
>trying to get across? From your post, I'd have to say so.

I hope you were being sarcastic in this post, or you're WAY too dense
yourself. Just shut up.

-Blah.

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:07:52 -0500

Message no. 33 At 07:57 AM 8/14/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:
>>Because people didn't have an impression of it preformed in their minds.
>>This let FASA do what they wanted.
>
>Oh... That MUST be the reason.

Considering when I asked Tom Dowd (he's the only person I've had the chance
to speak to about the beginning's of Sr who was actually there) and it was
his answer, yeah, it must be.

Of course, you can come up with any reason you want why they choose
Seattle. If it helps you sleep at night and forget for awhile how
insignificant you are, fine by me.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:14:26 -0500

Message no. 34 At 07:57 AM 8/14/97 -0800, you wrote:
#>None of that is what people think about Seattle when they first hear it.
#>It doesn't matter what a city actually does, it matters what people think
#>about it. At least, as far as the creators of Sr were concerned when they
#>decided on Seattle as Sr's main city. And the reason's aren't my own
#
#A lot of people think different things. Scientists could think, "Oh,
#yes, Seattle, they have a lot of bio-engineering going on there." Etc,
#etc. Very few think, "What the hell is in Seattle?" "They play
#grunge, don't they?" :P
Well, as Beavis & Butthead said: "They're not from America, they're
from Seattle"

#>And get of your high goddamn horse. Seattle ain't the center of the
#>Universe by a stretch. Haven to corporate tyrants (MS, WotC) yes. Center,
#>no.

Think about it, how many people really cared about Microsoft in the late 80's?
And also I believe that FASA was a Mac shop.
;)

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:25 +0000

Message no. 35 > > Hey now here's an idea... maybe a Denver 2.0 and Big City 2.0 and
> > California Free State 2.0, hell let's base Shadowrun on ST:TNG "To
> > boldly go where we've been before".... :)
> >
>
> Rahter, Re-releasing sourcebooks seems a bit like Deep Space 9.
>
> "To boldly stay where no man has stayed before".

If they started to release all them old books again it would make
FASA more like TSR:

"To boldly spend more than no man has spent before (on a rpg system)"

:)

Even thou I would like to see new prints of some of the books that
have gone out of print like the NAN books ...

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:24:25 +0000

Message no. 36 > >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
> >something ...
>
> Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia? I'm sure
> that'd sell _really_ well. Maybe into the teans!

Uhhh that hurt ... Do you think I'm like the only SR fan in
Scandinavia ? Atleast it would be exotic ...
And since the future is going to be so darn international don't you
think they really should start paying more attention to the rest of
the world ... America ain't everything ... Things actually happends
outside America too even thou you might not hear about it ..

> >A question ... Who exactly came up with the bright idea that Seattle
> >should be the center of the universe ?
>
> The original authors. Seattle was pretty much a blank city back in 88-89
> when Sr first came out. Most other city's people already had preconcieved
> notions off. But Seattle? WTF happens in Seattle? Well, now it's music,
> but that wasn't big 8-9 years ago.

Music ? Wasn't that like ages ago now .... ? What are the "hot"
Seattles bands today ? I can't think of any ...

Today Seattle is one thing and that is Microsoft ... A fun point
would be that the MS HQ is in REDMOND ! Gahahah! Makes me laugh
everytime I think about it ... Gotta make an adventure in the old MS
complex for my runners ...

> And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
> Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
> it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
> you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
> other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
> won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
> northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?

Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the US
is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
arn't you offended by that then ?

Do you really think that ? So you mean you would not buy a book that
said something bad about your country even if it was a really good
book ? I think people are smarter than that and they would get over
it since it is only Sci-Fi.

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:47:06 -0500

Message no. 37 At 06:24 PM 8/14/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
>> >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
>> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
>> >something ...
>>
>> Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia? I'm sure
>> that'd sell _really_ well. Maybe into the teans!
>
>Uhhh that hurt ... Do you think I'm like the only SR fan in
>Scandinavia ? Atleast it would be exotic ...

No, I think Scandanvia _could_ be interesting. _But_, it's main buyers
will be Scandanavians, and maybe one person in each group (one of which is
probably on this list ;) will buy it, and tell everyone else in their group
that it sucks, cause it's inaccurate or doesn't jive with how things would
really turn out, or they'll decide it's just fine and no one else will need
a copy.

>> And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
>> Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
>> it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
>> you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
>> other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
>> won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
>> northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?
>
>Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the US
>is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
>arn't you offended by that then ?

Cause I think it's damn appropriate

>>Do you really think that ? So you mean you would not buy a book that
>said something bad about your country even if it was a really good
>book ? I think people are smarter than that and they would get over
>it since it is only Sci-Fi.

The french refrence was made because it was something that Mike M. said at
GenCon. Apparently, the French weren't happy that half their country was
toxic. Didn't seem to bother anyone at the seminar though...

But many people don't want to think that they can't do something in their
country because someone else said it got all messed up. Look at the NO
thread right now. One person says it should be this way, and another says
that they made it this way. One person wouldn't spend money on the others
book because it doesn't work with how they think things should go. That's
the problem with place books. The reason that Aztlan and Bug City were
good was because they were more than a "this is this place in 60 years".
They had plots and story stuff that could be used, and not just "there's
this cozy little bar on 3rd and jersey..."

I'd like to see a "Target: Australia" by the end of '99. If I knew what
that year would be ('97 is crime, '98 is corps, '99 is ?????) then I'd
start throwing out ideas of my own. If I'd ever been there, I'd write a
'net supplement.

Any volunteers? :)

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:55:59 +0100

Message no. 38 In message <199708141022.MAA01158@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>It seems it's virtually impossible to bring out a country sourcebook that
>satisfies the natives, because for some reason everyone thinks nothing
>would change in 60 years (despite the Awakening, the Crash of '29, and so
>on).

It's not that, Gurth. It's blatantly obvious errors. A British
Conservative government that devolves power to the regions and sets up
assemblies in Scotland and Wales? We'll see that at about the same time
Newt Gingritch pushes through the "Cash Handouts For Unemployable Crack-
Smoking Single Mothers Act".

Looking at their map, Douneray - a smallish fast-breeder reactor -
managed to permanently contaminate most of the Scottish Highlands with
one accident. How? It just don't work that way, there aren't enough
curies in the core to achieve that. Similarly, 70,000 dead from a
chemical spill is not feasable. These guys were pulling numbers out of
their posteriors.

Some of their descriptions of London are seriously flawed, too. Yes,
areas might change, but not so fast nor so completely.

While things might change, they should do so within certain limits, and
it's possible to extrapolate what at least some of those changes would
be. The London Sourcebook gave the impression of having been written for
almost any country and then adapted for Britain.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:37:47 +0100

Message no. 39 In message <3.0.32.19970814085247.0093f710@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes
>Gee, you're not bitter, are you?

Considering how bad the London Sourcebook was, yeah; him and me both.

>Don't forget that if the whatever place
>book about whatever non-american country seems boring to you, it's one of
>your own natives faults, not FASA's. They take submissions from ppl living
>in that country.

So someone threatened to blow up FASA if they didn't publish London?
Yeah, whatever. You can submit anything you like to FASA, they decide
what to publish.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook? -Reply
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:17:43 -0500

Message no. 40 >Similarly, 70,000 dead from a chemical spill is
>not feasable.

Remember Bhopal? That was a SMALL facility,
located in a SMALL town. Admitedly, all the
snafus that led to the death toll being so high at
that one would probably never have happened in
a litigiuos society like USA or UK, but it could
happen...

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:38:44 EST

Message no. 41 > Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the
> US is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
> arn't you offended by that then ?

Because, unlike the French, Americans are PROUD our country is
F**ked. :)

"Hell yeah it's toxic. Just means I don't need a nightlight. You
gotta problem with that?"

American Hick, 2057

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:23:01 -0500

Message no. 42 At 05:37 PM 8/14/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

>>Don't forget that if the whatever place
>>book about whatever non-american country seems boring to you, it's one of
>>your own natives faults, not FASA's. They take submissions from ppl living
>>in that country.
>
>So someone threatened to blow up FASA if they didn't publish London?
>Yeah, whatever. You can submit anything you like to FASA, they decide
>what to publish.

Don't blame them for inaccuricies. Do you want books or money spent on
field research? They got a book, from a native, someone they thought would
know about the area, and it was a good book (well, it was an ok book, IMO)
and so it got published.

And the fact that London is inaccurate doesn't bother me. The fact that
New York is a walled city doesn't bother me, either, and that's, IMO, an
inaccurate future forcast. But why am I not upset? Cause it doesn't
matter. If I don't like something, I change it. My games don't have to be
canon. I don't write stuff for FASA, so it doesn't have to be canon. If I
ever did have to write something that was canon, I wouldn't do work on
something I didn't like because of it's inaccuricies (like NY). If it's
that big a deal to you, write a new one. Maybe FASA will do a London
Sourcebook 2.0 If the need is there and enough ppl want a new one, maybe
they'll even make radical changes to bring it back to what it should be.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:44:28 -0800

Message no. 43 >Considering when I asked Tom Dowd (he's the only person I've had the chance
>to speak to about the beginning's of Sr who was actually there) and it was
>his answer, yeah, it must be.

Darn, my fantasies are smashed in oblivion... Let me go off and cry now.

>Of course, you can come up with any reason you want why they choose
>Seattle. If it helps you sleep at night and forget for awhile how
>insignificant you are, fine by me.

Well... shoot, I'm insignificant and you're omnipotent. I'll excuse
this and let you go make a difference in this world, after all,
you've done something that's supposedly significant, haven't
you?

-Skye

From:	Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:30:15 -0500

Message no. 44 At 08:44 AM 8/14/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:

>Well... shoot, I'm insignificant and you're omnipotent. I'll excuse
>this and let you go make a difference in this world, after all,
>you've done something that's supposedly significant, haven't
>you?

Didn't say I had. But then, I didn't say me of my city were the center of
the universe, either.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

From:	"Steven A. Collins" <scollins@**.UML.EDU>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 14:43:26 -0400

Message no. 45 On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Broadwater wrote:

->At 08:44 AM 8/14/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:

}}snip "heated discussion"{{

->
->Didn't say I had. But then, I didn't say me of my city were the center of
->the universe, either.
->

Well My city is the Hub of the universe :) (see the Boston entry in
Target UCAS)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:46:08 +0100

Message no. 46 Paul J. Adam said on 16:55/14 Aug 97...

> It's not that, Gurth. It's blatantly obvious errors.

Those feature very high in the list of gripes with country sourcebooks,
yes, but they're not the only things everyone from the country in
question seems to find wrong with them.

> A British Conservative government that devolves power to the regions and
> sets up assemblies in Scotland and Wales?

Sounds unlikely, yeah...

> Looking at their map, Douneray - a smallish fast-breeder reactor -
> managed to permanently contaminate most of the Scottish Highlands with
> one accident. How? It just don't work that way, there aren't enough
> curies in the core to achieve that. Similarly, 70,000 dead from a
> chemical spill is not feasable. These guys were pulling numbers out of
> their posteriors.

Probably true for the chemical spill victims; for the reactor, I think
they looked at a RL map, noticed there's a reactor at Douneray (wherever
that may be), and picked that as a suitable place to have a meltdown.

> While things might change, they should do so within certain limits, and
> it's possible to extrapolate what at least some of those changes would
> be. The London Sourcebook gave the impression of having been written for
> almost any country and then adapted for Britain.

My main gripe is the senseless destruction that happens in European
sourcebooks. If you read the histories, it looks like at least 50% of the
continent is contaminated and uninhabitable somehow.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...who hates heatwaves
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:44:15 -0500

Message no. 47 At 02:43 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
#On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Michael Broadwater wrote:
#
#->At 08:44 AM 8/14/97 -0800, Skye Comstock wrote:
#
#}}snip "heated discussion"{{
#
#->
#->Didn't say I had. But then, I didn't say me of my city were the center of
#->the universe, either.
#->
#
#Well My city is the Hub of the universe :) (see the Boston entry in
#Target UCAS)

Actually, my city is, The USA is the Centre of the Universe (or so I am
being led to believe by Americans), Indiana is the crossroads of America,
and Bloomington is the crossroads of Indiana.
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:48:51 -0500

Message no. 48 At 08:46 PM 8/14/97 +0100, you wrote:
#Paul J. Adam said on 16:55/14 Aug 97...
#> A British Conservative government that devolves power to the regions and
#> sets up assemblies in Scotland and Wales?
#
#Sounds unlikely, yeah...
yeah, but at the time Thatcher was PM
;)

#Probably true for the chemical spill victims; for the reactor, I think
#they looked at a RL map, noticed there's a reactor at Douneray (wherever
#that may be), and picked that as a suitable place to have a meltdown.
who's to say that the reactor isn't "improved" in the next 60 years, or
whenever it melts down

#> While things might change, they should do so within certain limits, and
#> it's possible to extrapolate what at least some of those changes would
#> be. The London Sourcebook gave the impression of having been written for
#> almost any country and then adapted for Britain.
#
#My main gripe is the senseless destruction that happens in European
#sourcebooks. If you read the histories, it looks like at least 50% of the
#continent is contaminated and uninhabitable somehow.

Yeah, and that's different from now because?
;)

Seriously, I can see it, Europe has been the centre of the world for
millenia, creating some serious Karma for the place, a lot of BAD Karma due
to the way Europeans conquered the world, granted the UK should deserve
most of the bad rep, but there's France and Spain as well. What goes
around comes around.
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:46:08 +0100

Message no. 49 Michael Broadwater said on 9:03/14 Aug 97...

> And get of your high goddamn horse. Seattle ain't the center of the
> Universe by a stretch. Haven to corporate tyrants (MS, WotC) yes. Center,
> no.

Hey Butt-Head, where _is_ Seattle?

:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
...who hates heatwaves
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: New Seattle Sourcebook?
Date:	Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:37:42 +0100

Message no. 50 |
|> Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the
|> US is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
|> arn't you offended by that then ?
|
|Because, unlike the French, Americans are PROUD our country is
|F**ked. :)

Besides...

It's FRANCE!!!! No-one LIKES the French!

:)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 51 |Actually, my city is, The USA is the Centre of the Universe (or so I am
|being led to believe by Americans), Indiana is the crossroads of America,
|and Bloomington is the crossroads of Indiana.

Nahhh... The only think Indiana is the centre of in the universe is all
wierdness....

:)

Centred on a small town IN indiana....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 52 |who's to say that the reactor isn't "improved" in the next 60 years, or
|whenever it melts down

They don't "improve" reactors.
They decommision them and seal them in a big block of concrete...

Nothing's to stop them from building a new one next door though....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 53 > >> >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
> >> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
> >> >something ...

> >> Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia? I'm sure
> >> that'd sell _really_ well. Maybe into the teans!

> >Uhhh that hurt ... Do you think I'm like the only SR fan in
> >Scandinavia ? Atleast it would be exotic ...

> No, I think Scandanvia _could_ be interesting. _But_, it's main buyers
> will be Scandanavians, and maybe one person in each group (one of which is
> probably on this list ;) will buy it, and tell everyone else in their group
> that it sucks, cause it's inaccurate or doesn't jive with how things would
> really turn out, or they'll decide it's just fine and no one else will need
> a copy.

Well with the great norse mythology I think it would be great to ..
yes a new Tir :) Tir Thule :) Hahaha :)

> >> And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
> >> Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
> >> it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
> >> you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
> >> other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
> >> won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
> >> northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?
> >
> >Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the US
> >is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
> >arn't you offended by that then ?
>
> Cause I think it's damn appropriate

Well I can't but agree on that one ...

[SNIP TOXIC FRANCE and some other stuff]

/Stefan
____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

Message no. 54 > > Good point ... but so what if half of France is a toxic zone ? the
> > US is even more fu*ked up in the SR world than it is now ... So why
> > arn't you offended by that then ?

> Because, unlike the French, Americans are PROUD our country is
> F**ked. :)

Well atleast you can claim to be the best in another thing :)

> "Hell yeah it's toxic. Just means I don't need a nightlight. You
> gotta problem with that?"
>
> American Hick, 2057

Great ..: Redneck Rampage ... :)

/Stefan

____________________________________________
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!"

[Decker insult]
____________________________________________

E-MAiL ............ casanova@***.passagen.se
HoMEPAGE .. http://hem.passagen.se/casanova/
____________________________________________

Message no. 55 At 14-Aug-97 wrote MARTIN E. GOTTHARD:

>> >Not that FASA is infallible on what'll sell or what's good. I mean, they
>> >published Prime Runners, didn't they? :)
>>
>> Snigger....
>>

>And Shadowbeat.

Hey I like shadowbeat, it can be a very usefull book after all.
At last in my group.

And yes Primerunners is a little defect in the system.
--
Barbie

One lived hour is still living.

Message no. 56 At 14-Aug-97 wrote MC23:

> The air conditioner or the factory? B>]#

He will take both, just in case he needed some next year and is to
laszy to make another run.

BTW: I want one too, no better two:)

--
Barbie

One lived hour is still living.

Message no. 57 At 14-Aug-97 wrote Jaymz:

>#Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
>#Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
>#happen to be sitting at the time.....

>what a coincidence, same here

Who cares about the center of the universe?
You, silly mortals.
As the creator I can define it as I like.

:):):)

--
Barbie

One lived hour is still living.

Message no. 58 At 10:38 PM 8/14/97 -0500, Barbie wrote these timeless words:
>At 14-Aug-97 wrote MARTIN E. GOTTHARD:
>
>>> >Not that FASA is infallible on what'll sell or what's good. I mean, they
>>> >published Prime Runners, didn't they? :)
>>>
>>> Snigger....
>>>
>
>>And Shadowbeat.
>
>Hey I like shadowbeat, it can be a very usefull book after all.
>At last in my group.
>
>And yes Primerunners is a little defect in the system.
>
Shadowbeat was, in my NSHO a great sourcebook. Lots of fun... Just ask
Johnny Fever, lead singer for Psychadelic Phlem :]

Prime Runners wasn't so much a bad book, as it was a book that no one
really needed... It was completely useless for Non-GM's, and any
semi-decent GM can whip up a decent character with a good background in 15
or 20minutes (That's with a detailed background).

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"CrapGame, you bitch!"
-- R.C. during the Drive in the Country tournament

Message no. 59 In a message dated 97-08-14 09:59:13 EDT, you write:

> #Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
> #Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
> #happen to be sitting at the time.....
>
> what a coincidence, same here

Waitasec.... That's three..... is this a multi-universal Shadowrun Mailing
List? I was trying to join the one for MY universe!!! =)

Wolfstar

Message no. 60 In a message dated 97-08-14 09:18:53 EDT, you write:

> Nahhhh.... The centre of the Universe is nowhere NEAR Seattle....
> Actually, the actual centre of the, like, actual universe, is whereever I
> happen to be sitting at the time.....

POP!!! Goes the Ego! =) I'm gonna mail you an Emergency Ego Deflation Kit if
you keep that up. =)

Wolfstar

Message no. 61 In message <3.0.32.19970814132300.00940140@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes
>At 05:37 PM 8/14/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>So someone threatened to blow up FASA if they didn't publish London?
>>Yeah, whatever. You can submit anything you like to FASA, they decide
>>what to publish.
>
>Don't blame them for inaccuricies.

Why not? They bought it, copyrighted it, put the FASA logo on it,
printed it, shipped it, sold it.

> Do you want books or money spent on
>field research? They got a book, from a native, someone they thought would
>know about the area, and it was a good book (well, it was an ok book, IMO)

Uh, yeah...

It played to some decidedly American conceits about what "England" was
like. Sort of like taking the tourist zone of Miami and extrapolating
that to cover the entire United States.

It also demonstrated a breathtaking ignorance of British politics,
constitution (it endlessly confuses the US that we don't have a
_written_ constitution, yet it surely exists), public opinion...

Like I said, it gave the impression of being a generic Shadowrun setting
which had various "English" whistles and bells bolted on at the last
minute.

Sure, if you've never been outside the US then it's a usable sourcebook
and you could have fun playing there, but even casual study of the UK
shows the gaping holes in the logic the authors used. Too much
suspension of disbelief required, and too many blatant errors.

I mean, have you ever been to Covent Garden? The place is (a) historic,
(b) great for meeting people openly or covertly, (c) not amenable to
easy reconstruction, (d) a wonderful area for a firefight.

Does it even get mentioned in the book? Nope. The book's a travelogue of
bars and restaurants (could be anywhere), with an overview of politics
(could be anywhere) and corporations (could be anywhere).

No attempt to make any of it credible or convincing.

Not good.

>And the fact that London is inaccurate doesn't bother me. The fact that
>New York is a walled city doesn't bother me, either, and that's, IMO, an
>inaccurate future forcast. But why am I not upset? Cause it doesn't
>matter. If I don't like something, I change it.

Funny, the only time I open the London Sourcebook is answering posts
like this. What, you think I _use_ that piece of crap?

I just cite it as an example of why "place" sourcebooks have to be
constructed with a lot more care than FASA usually took. Aztlan, Bug
City and Denver were good examples, in my view; London wasn't.

>If it's
>that big a deal to you, write a new one. Maybe FASA will do a London
>Sourcebook 2.0

Somehow I doubt that Bobby's gonna step out of the shower and tell us it
was all a dream.

>If the need is there and enough ppl want a new one, maybe
>they'll even make radical changes to bring it back to what it should be.

The need is there... the market isn't. FASA fucked up and that's the end
of it as far as any official releases go. Unofficial is another story,
of course.

And since FASA's created this item, the best we can hope for is that
they avoid dealing with Britain in future and avoid making things
worse...

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 62 Michael Broadwater wrote:
> Gee, you're not bitter, are you? Don't forget that if the whatever place
> book about whatever non-american country seems boring to you, it's one of
> your own natives faults, not FASA's. They take submissions from ppl living
> in that country. And if it sucks, well, at least ppl will stop bitching
> about wanting this place book, or that place book. Now they can bitch
> about how it sucks, and is totally wrong about their country, and how come
> they didn't talk about this neat little town _which_ is so damn interesting
> and would be just great for Sr. You don't like what FASA is doing? Fine.
> Write a book that'll sell or start your own company and make just books
> about Europe. Not gonna bother me.

Not to be rude.. but umm.. the rest of the world pretty much has the
same opinion of your country. I live in Windsor Ontario.. for those
that don't know where that is, it's 1 mile, that's a bit more than a
kilometer, from DetRIOT michigan. I have one Canadian TV channel, about
10 american ones... I assure you, the opinion isn't from a bitter
person.
And what about my country??!! I didn't get a chance to write a source
book about it.. basically because it doesn't exist anymore! ACK!

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 63 Michael Broadwater wrote:
> And why a new Seattle Book, and ignore the rest of the world?
> Hmm...because it's Sr's main setting, and they can do a lot with it, and
> it'll sell? One problem with place books for foreign countries (Even if
> you let a native of the country do it) is that if it says something about
> other countries, and those other countries don't like it, people from there
> won't buy it. Example: How happy do you think the French were that the
> northern half of their county was turned into a toxic zone?

Ummm... they certainly didn't ask any Canadians on what should happen
to our country! Honestly, I completely disagree with anything that
happened with the natives but that's another question altogether. I
don't know how many Canadians are on this list, I know there are quite a
few however that are from other nations *OTHER* than the US... and not
to insult anyone, but why the hell would we want to join a country like
the United States? Granted the country was split all to hell in the SR
universe, but the Canadian provinces that _did_ join up to make the UCAS
have economies that are more than strong enough to make as their own
countries... and believe it or not, there are some rather large cultural
differences that would make such a marriage impossible.

One credit to the game designers... they did a good job on Quebec in
the NAGNA.. what a fucked up province :)
BTW, what about England? They wrecked havoc on the poor island... just
as an example to your post :)

> People who are complaining about place books (and I'd really like to see
> something done with Australia, I'm behind you all on this one, even if I
> see the logic behind _not_ doing it) are going to have to realize that FASA
> won't write it if it's not going to make money. Place books don't sell.
> Target books hopefully will. T:UCAS sold well (I think) and so, hopefully,
> will the rest. If stuff on Australia (or anywhere else) can be fit into
> one of those books, and FASA think's it'll sell, then it'll probably get
> released.

Let's just hope that FASA doesn't fall into the T$R problem and publish
a million books that individually are all worthless, but could have been
summed up in one awesome book. :) We don't want them to just publish
book after book because at a certain point people just give up... that's
the way it was with AD&D.. I stopped roleplaying for about 8 months and
find out I'm 43245 books behind <g> but I didn't really miss anything
vital with SR.

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 64 John E Pederson wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:38:07 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
> >Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0
> >sourcebook,
> >and still ignore the rest of the world.
> >
> >Great.............
>
> Yeah, but Seattle is pretty much the default setting for this game. The
> greater majority of the people really do play in Seattle, and the Seattle
> sourcebook is probably one of the only place books that sold/sells at all
> well. As such, it is long overdue for an overhaul and an update.

Actually I think the neoAnarchists Guide to NA should be updated... I
particularily like running in Washington DC and I think the pages they
put for the cites they do cover don't really do them justice.. I've
tried NY once, thought about a game there but it didn't fit with how the
players wanted to play. I thought about London, but I know north
america much better than those across the pond :)

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 65 Avenger wrote:
>
> In article <3.0.1.32.19970813143807.007b5a30@***.iquest.net>, Jaymz
> <justin@******.NET> rambled on endlessly about New Seattle Sourcebook?
> >Ok, so place books don't sell, but they're making a Seattle 2.0 sourcebook,
> >and still ignore the rest of the world.
> >
> >Great.............
>
> I'd not heard about the Seattle 2 sourcebook. But I'm afraid that we're
> just going to have to accept that American self importance is going to
> deny the existence of the rest of the world as a viable prospect for
> anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
> volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
> not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.

Well put.. but do try to remember that at least your country exists my
dear sir :) And that the majority of RPGers are Americans that get
hardons thinking about how awesome their country is. <BFG>

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 66 In message <s3f3043b.071@********.dragonsys.com>, Mike Elkins
<MikeE@*********.COM> writes
>>Similarly, 70,000 dead from a chemical spill is
>>not feasable.
>
>Remember Bhopal? That was a SMALL facility,
>located in a SMALL town. Admitedly, all the
>snafus that led to the death toll being so high at
>that one would probably never have happened in
>a litigiuos society like USA or UK, but it could
>happen...

Bullshit.

Bhopal was a worst-case accident, in an area with nonexistent
infrastructure and medical facilities, and it didn't manage anything
like this level of destruction.

Let's say that somehow, in violation of international convention, the
Health and Safety Executive, and a raft of other legislation, there's a
factory turning out organophosphorous derivatives ("nerve gas" in all
but name: cf. Rabta).

To kill 70,000 people with one gas cloud isn't 'accident', it's
"thorough planning by a terrorist group who prepositioned scores of
dispersal points". The gas is not uniformly fatal, countermeasures exist
(even the most basic of staying inside and closing the doors and windows
reduces your dosage by two orders of magnitude: the difference between
"dead" and "bad headache and dimmed vision") and treatment, thanks to
decades of work at Porton Down, is well understood and relatively
simple.

No, it's not completely impossible. But it's ludicrously implausible,
and certainly deserves more attention than "it just happened".

Even the Soviet RMBK reactor design needed operator intervention to
cause it to blow so catastrophically. With at least three major design
flaws, it still had to have its operators shut down several safety
mechanisms before the accident at Chernobyl was possible.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 67 Sir Philos Nex once dared to write,

> One credit to the game designers... they did a good job on Quebec in
>the NAGNA.. what a fucked up province :)

And like a true Neo-Anarchist he was from Montreal, not Quebec. IIRC
the story went that he was going to write up Quebec changed his mind to
do Montreal and changed his mind yet again and turned in Quebec.
NAGNA was also slated to have a section on Orlando written by Uncle
Walt's employee's themselves. I never heard the reason why it never came
to pass as at the time it was passing Mickey's scrutiny. I guess that
just goes to show you, you can't trust a rat in trousers.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 68 George Metz once dared to write,

> Waitasec.... That's three..... is this a multi-universal Shadowrun Mailing
>List? I was trying to join the one for MY universe!!! =)

All I know that I'm at the point farthest from the center. Much
better shadowrun backdrop if you ask me. B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"One can't complain. I have my friends.
Somebody spoke to me only yesterday."
-Eeyore, Winnie-the-Pooh

I am MC23

Message no. 69 > >We have the highest suicide rate?
>
> Yep, and Washington D.C. has the highest murder rate. I guess it
> depends on how you want to do you self in, are you a self-starter or do
> you need help.
> Of course those rates are a few years old so someone might have been
> dethroned by now but I think those numbers will stay with us for a while.
> Ya gotta keep up a tradition ya know.
>

Doubt that; AFAIK, Australia recently outstripped the rest of the world
(Japan included) in male youth (18-25) suicides per capita.

Tis' a lovely place to live *grin*

Marty

Message no. 70 You know guys, it's about time we all calmed down, and took this to
another thread.

Message no. 71 In article <3.0.32.19970814085247.0093f710@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> rambled on endlessly about New Seattle
Sourcebook?
>At 01:29 AM 8/14/97 +0100, Avenger wrote:
<snip>
>>anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
>>volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
>>not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.
>
>Gee, you're not bitter, are you?

Not particularly, no <g>

>Don't forget that if the whatever place
>book about whatever non-american country seems boring to you,

Not boring to me. Boring to Americans. Shadowrun is an American
product aimed at Americans. Americans are (I think) the largest buying
market for Shadowrun. As you should have noticed from my other posts, I
don't have a problem with sourcebooks about other nations, provided they
are done sensibly, and don't arbitrarily destroy half of that country
just for the sake of it. I do however, have a slight problem with an
endless string of American based modules/sourcebooks/updates.

The comment "boring" was a bit of sarcasm, aimed at the American
attitude towards the rest of the world. :)

>it's one of
>your own natives faults, not FASA's.

Agreed and disagreed. Fasa accepted, ratified, published, shipped and
sold the product, therefore they are responsible.

>They take submissions from ppl living
>in that country. And if it sucks, well, at least ppl will stop bitching
>about wanting this place book, or that place book. Now they can bitch
>about how it sucks, and is totally wrong about their country, and how come
>they didn't talk about this neat little town _which_ is so damn interesting
>and would be just great for Sr.

No, here I must disagree. I don't think "this town is really cool" is a
valid argument for a place book, however, the London sourcebook should
have remained the _London_ book, and left the rest of the country alone,
rather than the ludicrously unbelievable destruction that was brought
upon it.

As regards the other comments you make about bitching. I wouldn't bitch
about the London sourcebook if it wasn't so blatantly screwed up, with
geographical, logical, political and practical f***ups. I think the
same applies to people like Gurth. i mean, flooding the Netherlands,
the one nation that has centuries of experience fighting such events.
Toxic and nuclear zones in the UK and Europe totally beyond logical
scale.

>You don't like what FASA is doing?

Never said that. I don't like *some* of what FASA is doing, and dislike
intensely *some* of what they've done.

>Fine.
>Write a book that'll sell

Yeah right. I would. :-P But unfortunately it won't be accepted
because there's already one about the damn place. :)

>or start your own company and make just books
>about Europe.

OK, if I happen to win 20+ million on the lottery that's always a
posiibility. However, until such a thing or an act of god occurs, that
is blatantly a ridiculous comment beneath your usual skills at debate,
and will be ignored with the contempt it deserves.

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

Message no. 72 In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970814190421.14062E@*****.student.gu.edu.au>,
"MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU> rambled on about New
Seattle Sourcebook?
>
>Best sorucebook ever?
>
>Universal Brotherhood, without a doubt.

Agreed.

Pity the situation got so screwy so quick. There was a hell of a lot of
possibility in Brotherhood. At least finally, there is in print what
I've been arguing for years - The bugs are everywhere, something many
seem to have forgotten.

Now we have an (optional) awakened bacteria in Chicago that has
"destroyed" the bugs.... Hmm, I wonder what effect that little bacteria
will have on elementals, spirits, free spirits, astrally aware
creatures, spell chuckers, vampires (and other dual natured critters),
Dragons... etc etc. I wonder if it just sort of "hangs around" the
nests feeding off the bug spirits (and what it does when concentrations
are finally gone-moved), or if it's susceptible to astral tides.. or
even if it can move/be moved.

Oh I think I'll use some artistic licence and shift it around the world
a bit, maybe let some terrorists have it, and let it loose somewhere
like MIT&T. Awakened forests, "A new defoliant" <hehehe> Agent
Orange
on the astral.

Nice little germ, lots of fun with that, a new "anti magic" (well
astral) plague maybe, hmmm... <'orrid thoughts>

Pity Ares won't trade with the UK, it'll have to be a na'nOg terrorist
action I suppose... or maybe some silly "conversationist" <sigh> booboo.

Hey Paul. Fancy a quick run to the US to steal a few gallons of this
stuff for the Lord Protector?

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

Message no. 73 In a message dated 97-08-14 19:22:58 EDT, you write:

> Sure, if you've never been outside the US then it's a usable sourcebook
> and you could have fun playing there, but even casual study of the UK
> shows the gaping holes in the logic the authors used. Too much
> suspension of disbelief required, and too many blatant errors.

Umm, please give us "local yokel" Americans, specifically the American
roleplaying public, a bit more credit than that. Especially those of us in a
line of descent from the Isles. =) Although, for a REAL bad job, check out
Munchkin.... errr... I mean Rifts England. I doubt they could mutilate the
legends of the Isles any more thoroughly if they tried. I'll give you an idea
as soon as I borrow London Sourcebook from my friend.

> I mean, have you ever been to Covent Garden? The place is (a) historic,
> (b) great for meeting people openly or covertly, (c) not amenable to
> easy reconstruction, (d) a wonderful area for a firefight.
>
> Does it even get mentioned in the book? Nope. The book's a travelogue of
> bars and restaurants (could be anywhere), with an overview of politics
> (could be anywhere) and corporations (could be anywhere).

Seriously, then, why don't you write a Netbook? Project anyone? <Southern
Twang> This poor ol' American hick'd love ta help y'all out! </Southern
Twang> =)

Wolfstar

Message no. 74 | Waitasec.... That's three..... is this a multi-universal Shadowrun Mailing
|List? I was trying to join the one for MY universe!!! =)

Nahhh... Much better to have multi-dimentional subscription...
I mean, in this universe RONALD REAGAN was president!!!!

Can YOU get wierder ideas than that for your game? Dunky was nothing
compared to that!
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 75 |Sure, if you've never been outside the US then it's a usable sourcebook
|and you could have fun playing there, but even casual study of the UK
|shows the gaping holes in the logic the authors used. Too much
|suspension of disbelief required, and too many blatant errors.

And if you're in the mood for a READ giggle, look at the "Britspeak" think.

LOL! "Knickerbockers"???? NO-ONE, and I mean NO-ONE uses that word anymore!

|I mean, have you ever been to Covent Garden? The place is (a) historic,
|(b) great for meeting people openly or covertly, (c) not amenable to
|easy reconstruction, (d) a wonderful area for a firefight.
|
|Does it even get mentioned in the book? Nope. The book's a travelogue of
|bars and restaurants (could be anywhere), with an overview of politics
|(could be anywhere) and corporations (could be anywhere).

And the amount of space allocated to MAJOR cities is laughable!
London sourcebook? What about the REST of the UK????

Liverpool and Mancherster. Oh, so sorry, MERSEY SPRAWL only got 2
paragraphs. And most of the stuff about Merseyside is what's happening NOW,
not in 60 years time!

|No attempt to make any of it credible or convincing.
|
|Not good.

I'll agree. The word NAFF tends to spring to mind.

|>If it's
|>that big a deal to you, write a new one. Maybe FASA will do a London
|>Sourcebook 2.0
|
|Somehow I doubt that Bobby's gonna step out of the shower and tell us it
|was all a dream.

Hey, it doesn't have to be a dream.
Just a bit of Anti-brit propoganda someone posted onto the shadowland, which
the Americans lapped up.

Someone from the UK finally finds it, READS it, laughs at it and writes an
accurate version.

All he'd have to do is reduce the size of the toxic zones to their
unexagerated size, and post the TRUTH, IN DETAIL, about the UK and NOT just
LONDON.....

|>If the need is there and enough ppl want a new one, maybe
|>they'll even make radical changes to bring it back to what it should be.
|
|The need is there... the market isn't. FASA fucked up and that's the end
|of it as far as any official releases go. Unofficial is another story,
|of course.

How about a new NERPS project? Take the London sourcebook. Rip it to
shreads, and reassemble it into a USEFULL book. Possibly keeping some of the
original text as rumours and debunking them?

The REAL U.K. sourcebook.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 76 |Doubt that; AFAIK, Australia recently outstripped the rest of the world
|(Japan included) in male youth (18-25) suicides per capita.
|
|Tis' a lovely place to live *grin*

Well... The reason is obvious...

Have you SEEN any aussie TV lately?

Home and Away? Neighbours? PRISONER CELL BLOCK "H"?
Let the Blood run free?

I don't think they know HOW to make good TV down there....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 77 At 02:26 PM 8/15/97 +1000, MARTIN E. GOTTHARD wrote:
#> >We have the highest suicide rate?
#>
#> Yep, and Washington D.C. has the highest murder rate. I guess it
#> depends on how you want to do you self in, are you a self-starter or do
#> you need help.
#> Of course those rates are a few years old so someone might have been
#> dethroned by now but I think those numbers will stay with us for a while.
#> Ya gotta keep up a tradition ya know.
#>
#
#Doubt that; AFAIK, Australia recently outstripped the rest of the world
#(Japan included) in male youth (18-25) suicides per capita.
#
#Tis' a lovely place to live *grin*

Hell yeah!

Less competition for the female youths!
;)
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 78 At 11:57 AM 8/15/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>| Waitasec.... That's three..... is this a multi-universal Shadowrun Mailing
>|List? I was trying to join the one for MY universe!!! =)
>
>Nahhh... Much better to have multi-dimentional subscription...
>I mean, in this universe RONALD REAGAN was president!!!!
>
>Can YOU get wierder ideas than that for your game? Dunky was nothing
>compared to that!
>--
Heh, in this universe, Ringo's was a good drummer.

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

Message no. 79 At 12:10 PM 8/15/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
#And if you're in the mood for a READ giggle, look at the "Britspeak" think.
#
#LOL! "Knickerbockers"???? NO-ONE, and I mean NO-ONE uses that word anymore!

Doctor Knickerbocker, Knickerbocker Number 9
He likes to dance and he keeps in time.
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 80 At 12:42 PM 8/15/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
#|Doubt that; AFAIK, Australia recently outstripped the rest of the world
#|(Japan included) in male youth (18-25) suicides per capita.
#|
#|Tis' a lovely place to live *grin*
#
#Well... The reason is obvious...
#
#Have you SEEN any aussie TV lately?
#
#Home and Away? Neighbours? PRISONER CELL BLOCK "H"?
#Let the Blood run free?

I agree on the soaps, but Let The Blood Run Free is an EXCELLENT piece of
televison, well, the first season (have they made any others) was on a par
with some of the better british comedies.

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 81 |I agree on the soaps, but Let The Blood Run Free is an EXCELLENT piece of
|televison, well, the first season (have they made any others) was on a par
|with some of the better british comedies.

You *ARE* joking....
Please, tell me you're joking....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 82 At 03:59 PM 8/15/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
#|I agree on the soaps, but Let The Blood Run Free is an EXCELLENT piece of
#|televison, well, the first season (have they made any others) was on a par
#|with some of the better british comedies.
#
#You *ARE* joking....
#Please, tell me you're joking....

No, it was great!

when you could call in at the end of the episode to decide what outcome you
want to happen in the next episode!

It was great!

--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/

Message no. 83 If memory serves correctly, Spike wrote:

> How about a new NERPS project? Take the London sourcebook. Rip it to
> shreads, and reassemble it into a USEFULL book. Possibly keeping some of the
> original text as rumours and debunking them?
>
> The REAL U.K. sourcebook.....

I beleiev Avenger is already doing this: check out his web page. He
has been working on the Alternative UK Sourcebook.

Vael.

Message no. 84 On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, George Metz wrote:

->line of descent from the Isles. =) Although, for a REAL bad job, check out
->Munchkin.... errr... I mean Rifts England. I doubt they could mutilate the
->legends of the Isles any more thoroughly if they tried. I'll give you an idea
->as soon as I borrow London Sourcebook from my friend.

Yeah but it did have the Temporal Warrior character class in it :) . I
loved Playing one. I reguraly proved to the rest of the Party that
they need to fear me even though they were mostly megadamage
characters. Especially the Tatooed Man we had.

Message no. 85 In a message dated 97-08-15 06:59:26 EDT, you write:

> | Waitasec.... That's three..... is this a multi-universal Shadowrun
Mailing
> |List? I was trying to join the one for MY universe!!! =)
>
> Nahhh... Much better to have multi-dimentional subscription...
> I mean, in this universe RONALD REAGAN was president!!!!

Ronald Reagan? Who's that? The name rings a bell, but "I can't recall...."
=)

> Can YOU get wierder ideas than that for your game? Dunky was nothing
> compared to that!

Well, in this universe, the Tick is running against Thraxazog in the 2000
election...

Wolfstar

Message no. 86 In message <23793.199708151110@******.teach.cs.keele.ac.uk>, Spike
<u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> writes
>How about a new NERPS project? Take the London sourcebook. Rip it to
>shreads, and reassemble it into a USEFULL book. Possibly keeping some of the
>original text as rumours and debunking them?
>
>The REAL U.K. sourcebook.....

Pete's got one underway: I'm writing up the British military for him :)

It's a good idea and needs doing IMO.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 87 At 05:31 PM 8/15/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>>
>>The REAL U.K. sourcebook.....
>
>Pete's got one underway: I'm writing up the British military for him :)
>
>It's a good idea and needs doing IMO.
>
That should be cool. Got anything a yank might be able to do? ;) Or are
we a little wary of that path?

Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton

Message no. 88 > >Pete's got one underway: I'm writing up the British military for him :)
> >
> >It's a good idea and needs doing IMO.
> >
> That should be cool. Got anything a yank might be able to do? ;) Or are
> we a little wary of that path?
>

Why the hell should there be a problem??? The last book was written by a
Brit, and that served just to piss everybody off.

Marty

Message no. 89 In article <970815142049_1552602571@*******.mail.aol.com>, George Metz
<W0lfstar@***.COM> rambled on endlessly about New Seattle Sourcebook?
>In a message dated 97-08-15 06:59:26 EDT, you write:

> Ronald Reagan? Who's that? The name rings a bell, but "I can't recall...."
>=)

Some dopey B-movie actor that followed on shortly after a peanut
farmer... ho hum, says it all really <g>

>> Can YOU get wierder ideas than that for your game? Dunky was nothing
>> compared to that!
>
> Well, in this universe, the Tick is running against Thraxazog in the 2000
>election...

The Tick!!! Hell I'll vote for that. :)

--
__ \ | \ __
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A Dark Shadow in a Dark World |___/
Web page at: http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk

Message no. 90 In message <3.0.32.19970815141846.0094aeb0@********>, Michael Broadwater
<mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM> writes
>At 05:31 PM 8/15/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:

>>Pete's got one underway: I'm writing up the British military for him :)
>>
>>It's a good idea and needs doing IMO.
>>
>That should be cool. Got anything a yank might be able to do? ;) Or are
>we a little wary of that path?

After the mess Sargent et al made, I'd hardly claim this was "British
Only".

Okay, it helps if you know what you're starting from (what _does_
Birmingham's Spaghetti Junction look like in 2058? If you've never
navigated it, you won't know...) but sixty years gies a lot of leeway.
Just don't be as stupid as the London Sourcebook writers were..

You have an idea, let Pete know and see if it will fit in or can be
adapted (his book, he runs it...)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

Message no. 91 In a message dated 97-08-16 02:55:46 EDT, you write:

> ->Munchkin.... errr... I mean Rifts England. I doubt they could mutilate
> the
> ->legends of the Isles any more thoroughly if they tried. I'll give you an

> idea
> ->as soon as I borrow London Sourcebook from my friend.
>
> Yeah but it did have the Temporal Warrior character class in it :) . I
> loved Playing one. I reguraly proved to the rest of the Party that
> they need to fear me even though they were mostly megadamage
> characters. Especially the Tatooed Man we had.

Side note: The one sure way to SEVERELY overbalance a game system is to
include Temporal effects without some serious restrictions. The way to
completely obliterate it is to put it in the hands of the PCs.

Wolfstar

Message no. 92 In a message dated 97-08-16 04:53:15 EDT, you write:

> How about a new NERPS project? Take the London sourcebook. Rip it to
> shreads, and reassemble it into a USEFULL book. Possibly keeping some of
the
> original text as rumours and debunking them?
>

A friend of mine tonight was telling me about a book he read once, that was
an excellent book. He loved the characters, the plot, and the story's
setting. He read the last chapter, and it was so bad that he ripped the last
chapter out and gave it to people to read. When they asked about the last
chapter he said, "Trust me, you're better off not knowing."
From what I've been hearing, London Sourcebook IS that last Chapter. I
propose that we do the same thing for the current UK Netbook Project.

Wolfstar

Message no. 93 |No, it was great!
|
|when you could call in at the end of the episode to decide what outcome you
|want to happen in the next episode!

????? Eh ?????

That must be why it was so crap then....
We got the finished product with no input.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 94 on 13.08.97 mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM wrote:
m> At 09:52 PM 8/13/97 +0000, Stefan wrote:
m>
m> >They are ? Well that's nice but what the frag happend to the rest of
m> >the world ! I want a book about Scandinavia ... That would really be
m> >something ...
m>
m> Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia?

We do. Sometimes even Iceland.... :))

Tobias
## CrossPoint v3.1 ##

Message no. 95 | Well, in this universe, the Tick is running against Thraxazog in the 2000
|election...

Damn! How do I get there?
Even better if I could get to the universe where it's Earthworm Jim running
for Prez....

Earthworm Jim kicks the ticks backside....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 96 In a message dated 97-08-16 08:38:49 EDT, you write:

> > Ronald Reagan? Who's that? The name rings a bell, but "I can't
recall...."
> > =)
>
> Some dopey B-movie actor that followed on shortly after a peanut
> farmer... ho hum, says it all really <g>

Sad, but oh so true. He was followed by the invisible man (Where WAS George
Bush during Iran Contra?) and Nixon Reincarnate(From Arkansas). Too bad he
didn't keep the smarts.

> >> Can YOU get wierder ideas than that for your game? Dunky was nothing
> >> compared to that!
> >
> > Well, in this universe, the Tick is running against Thraxazog in the
2000
> >election...
>
> The Tick!!! Hell I'll vote for that. :)

Okay, but remember to vote for the onle in Blue tights. The green one is
Thraxazog's Vice President, and he's made of snot. =)

Wolfstar

Message no. 97 In a message dated 97-08-16 14:06:51 EDT, you write:

> | Well, in this universe, the Tick is running against Thraxazog in the 2000
> |election...
>
> Damn! How do I get there?
> Even better if I could get to the universe where it's Earthworm Jim
running
> for Prez....
>
> Earthworm Jim kicks the ticks backside....

Actually, Earthworm Jim lost to the Tick in the primaries once again. I
STILL don't see how Bob Dole can beat Earthworm Jim....

Wolfstar

Message no. 98 on 14.08.97 justin@******.NET wrote:

j> Seriously, I can see it, Europe has been the centre of the world for
j> millenia, creating some serious Karma for the place, a lot of BAD Karma due
j> to the way Europeans conquered the world, granted the UK should deserve
j> most of the bad rep, but there's France and Spain as well. What goes
j> around comes around.

Hey wait a sec! Germany is the bad country! We started both world wars!

Serious: Russia should have a very bad rep for conquering, America for
killing the natives and for playing big boss with the rest of the world,
the UK, Spain and France (also for fascism) for imperialism, Italia for
the mafia and fascism, Japan for the racism, etc.
That it comes down to is that *every* country has a lot of dark spots in
their history, espacially those thought of as rather cool (though I have
to admit, that only few countries realized their mistakes and tried to
repay for it). This is getting too political and far too OT...

Tobias

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##

Message no. 99 on 14.08.97 gurth@******.NL wrote:

g> My main gripe is the senseless destruction that happens in European
g> sourcebooks. If you read the histories, it looks like at least 50% of the
g> continent is contaminated and uninhabitable somehow.

That's what you get when you start a war in europe. O.K., I always thought
it was a rather weak move of FASA to make the big war in europe, so it's
far, far away from Seattle and SR. There wasn't *anything* like that in
north America until Bug City and that's 'just' Chicago. Oh, and Gurth,
just because it's contaiminated doesn't mean nobody lives there.

Tobias

## CrossPoint v3.1 ##

Message no. 100 On Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:08:33 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 03:15 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Steven A. Collins wrote:
>#On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Jaymz wrote:
>#
>#->Don't forget Vietnam
>#
>#UMMMMM sorry to contradict you here but the US was NOT kicked out of
>#Vietnam. I'm not saying that we didn't loose the war, we did.
>
>I'm sorry, but losing a war to me means being kicked out

<politico>
Darnit! It wasn't a war! It was a police action!
</politico>

That's what they tell me, anyways:)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

Message no. 101 Tobias Berghoff said on 16:04/16 Aug 97...

> That it comes down to is that *every* country has a lot of dark spots in
> their history, espacially those thought of as rather cool (though I have
> to admit, that only few countries realized their mistakes and tried to
> repay for it). This is getting too political and far too OT...

Repaying isn't really necessary to avoid the mistakes of the past, but
acknowledging you made them is. Taking Germany as an example (this is the
shorted version, BTW :) WWII basically got off the ground because some
madman was elected who promised to set right the wrongs caused by WWI and
its "peace treaty." After WWII people were extensively taught that what
Germany had done was wrong, and that has prevented it happening again.

Japan, OTOH, has acknowledged its expansionism was wrong, but in Japan
people are told very few hard facts about WWII, except AFAIK about the two
nuclear weapons the Americans dropped on them. This could very well lead
to another round of Japan attempting to conquer the world (that was its
plan in the 1930s and '40s -- an invasion of the USA was thought to be
feasible by 1963, IIRC) which in SR it has taken the first steps toward.
It's Imperial Japan again, they have effectively invaded California, and I
wouldn't be surprised if they've fought some wars in South-East Asia or
the Pacific to get access to necessary raw materials like oil.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 102 Tobias Berghoff said on 15:50/16 Aug 97...

> That's what you get when you start a war in europe. O.K., I always thought
> it was a rather weak move of FASA to make the big war in europe, so it's
> far, far away from Seattle and SR. There wasn't *anything* like that in
> north America until Bug City and that's 'just' Chicago.

I was more thinking about those &$%*^%#(~ who wrote the Germany
Sourcebook. They've destroyed more in Europe than FASA ever did, I think.

> Oh, and Gurth, just because it's contaiminated doesn't mean nobody lives
> there.

True, but you also won't find millions of people there either.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 103 > Japan, OTOH, has acknowledged its expansionism was wrong, but in Japan
> people are told very few hard facts about WWII, except AFAIK about the two
> nuclear weapons the Americans dropped on them. This could very well lead
> to another round of Japan attempting to conquer the world (that was its
> plan in the 1930s and '40s -- an invasion of the USA was thought to be
> feasible by 1963, IIRC) which in SR it has taken the first steps toward.
> It's Imperial Japan again, they have effectively invaded California, and I
> wouldn't be surprised if they've fought some wars in South-East Asia or
> the Pacific to get access to necessary raw materials like oil.
>

Why invade when you can buy someone out, lock, stock and barrel?

Japan already owns about 40% of Amercias gold reserves.... Enough to
bankrupt the ecnomoy if they deinvested totally.

Marty

Message no. 104 In a message dated 97-08-18 06:27:25 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU writes:

> Japan already owns about 40% of Amercias gold reserves.... Enough to
> bankrupt the ecnomoy if they deinvested totally.

Yes, and it would also nail their economy to the same cross also.

Message no. 105 You wrote:
> In a message dated 97-08-18 06:27:25 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU writes:

> > Japan already owns about 40% of Amercias gold reserves.... Enough to
> > bankrupt the ecnomoy if they deinvested totally.

> Yes, and it would also nail their economy to the same cross also.

Not to mention the fact that our economy has not been based on a gold standard
in *quite* some time now...

losthalo

Message no. 106 Mike Bobroff wrote:

> In a message dated 97-08-18 06:27:25 EDT, s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU writes:
>
> > Japan already owns about 40% of Amercias gold reserves.... Enough to
> > bankrupt the ecnomoy if they deinvested totally.
>
> Yes, and it would also nail their economy to the same cross also.

Indeed.. not only themselves but the entire planet. It's the same reason
that New York will probably never be nuked.. the loss of those financial
markets would kill the planets economy instantly. No country is willing to do
that, no mastter how much they hate the US. (shudder... I hope anyways) I
would think that we should worry about those freaks from the middle east with
bombs strapped to their chests who *are* willing to blow up NY.. if the world
trade center bombing had been sucessful our countries would probably be still
in financial shock.

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 107 > >Great.............
>
> I'd not heard about the Seattle 2 sourcebook. But I'm afraid that we're
> just going to have to accept that American self importance is going to
> deny the existence of the rest of the world as a viable prospect for
> anything except boringness, tedium and toxic zones. No matter how
> volatile and vociferous the rest of the world gets, it's obviously just
> not going to happen, not for quite a long while anyway.

<apologists>

Well, gee... okay, they're chauvinistic bastards but they're also the
only superpower in the world, which gives'em some leeway. (For now..
unfortunately, that won't last). As long as they use their power
responsibly, it's fine with me.

</apologist>

Well, there's a lot of sourcebooks out for other areas. AFAIK
Scandinavia's dense with RPG'ers, so a Scandinavian sourcebook might
sell some after all.

--
Fade

"Do you wish to dance with Lucretia, Mr. President?"

Message no. 108 In a message dated 97-08-19 06:03:38 EDT, you write:

> Indeed.. not only themselves but the entire planet. It's the same
> reason
> that New York will probably never be nuked.. the loss of those financial
> markets would kill the planets economy instantly. No country is willing
to do
> that, no mastter how much they hate the US. (shudder... I hope anyways) I
> would think that we should worry about those freaks from the middle east
with
> bombs strapped to their chests who *are* willing to blow up NY.. if the
world
> trade center bombing had been sucessful our countries would probably be
still
> in financial shock.

Well, number one, I wouldn't be too sure about that. The US government had
nukes pointed at the Pacific Northwest - yuppers, that's where Seattle is -
to wipe out the largest portion of the world's oxygen production(it ain't the
rainforests, chummers, but the Northwest). If our government is willing to
nuke it's own AIR SUPPLY, I doubt anyone's worrying about New York and it's
stock exchange.
As for the wackos who pulled the World Trade Center bombing, the entire
world would still be in shock from two of the world's largest buildings
FALLING OVER and obliterating most of New York City. Who cares about
economics?

Wolfstar

Message no. 109 > > Indeed.. not only themselves but the entire planet. It's the same
> > reason
> > that New York will probably never be nuked.. the loss of those financial
> > markets would kill the planets economy instantly. No country is willing
> to do
> > that, no mastter how much they hate the US. (shudder... I hope anyways) I
> > would think that we should worry about those freaks from the middle east
> with
> > bombs strapped to their chests who *are* willing to blow up NY.. if the
> world
> > trade center bombing had been sucessful our countries would probably be
> still
> > in financial shock.

You are a dictator. (Yes you are! STOP ARGUING!). You recently went
to war on a neighbouring country, thinking it would be a piece of
cake. Now suddenly USA decides it's soon election time and a nice,
little war would be just the thing to bolster ratings. A PR blitz is
started, and you just know you're in for it. Sanctions are mounting,
so you are no part of financial markets. If you get USA out of your
hair, you're home free.

Now incidentally you had the foresight to put this nice little nuke
you bought from another of your neighbours (china, russia, india,
whatever) on a tramp freighter which is at present in a New York
port.. or even better, Washington.

Would it not be tempting to say,
"Bugger off or New York goes *BOOM*!" ?...

or just blow it up and hope it serves as a distraction.. without
taking responsibility, to avoid possible repercussions.

If the blackmail version, it would actually be a tough decision for
USA, because if they give in to it just once, then they will face the
situation again and again. Their reply would probably be, "Aha? Well,
if NY goes, so does: (Complete list of your cities)."... and continue
as before. (While evacuating NY). But loosing NY would be really bad,
too.

Now, you and me, we would know that we couldn't win that. But this
theoretical dictator is the kind of guy that has used terrorism,
suicide bombers and stuff all his life. (Now it hasn't worked before,
why should it now, but hey...).
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

Message no. 110 George Metz wrote:

> As for the wackos who pulled the World Trade Center bombing, the entire
> world would still be in shock from two of the world's largest buildings
> FALLING OVER and obliterating most of New York City. Who cares about
> economics?
>
> Wolfstar

I guess when you're hitting that level of chaos you don't really worry about
the theory or anything :)

--
Andrew Dominas
AKA Sir Philos Nex
3rd Year Honours Business Administration U of Windsor
Jedi Knight

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Message no. 111 In a message dated 97-08-17 07:48:30 EDT, Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE (Tobias
Berghoff) writes:

> m> Yeah! There we go. How many people run a game in Scandanavia?
>
> We do. Sometimes even Iceland.... :))
>
No NO NO!!!...you guys got it all wrong...go for Greenland...trust me on
this...
-K

Message no. 112 Fade said on 14:02/19 Aug 97...

[dictator hides nuke on commercial ship to blow up NYC]
> If the blackmail version, it would actually be a tough decision for
> USA, because if they give in to it just once, then they will face the
> situation again and again. Their reply would probably be, "Aha? Well,
> if NY goes, so does: (Complete list of your cities)."... and continue
> as before. (While evacuating NY). But loosing NY would be really bad,
> too.

Or you find out which ship the nuke is on (they don't pump all that money
into the CIA for nothing) and send in some anti-terrorism unit to take
over the ship -- a big plus here is that the Americans could even actually
use Delta Force (or whatever it's currently called) instead of the FBI's
Hostage Rescue Team, since the ship isn't US territory... If they do it
right (for which Delta Force is not particularly known when it comes to
high-publicity cases, BTW :) nobody will have time to detonate the nuke
before everyone on board the ship is shot dead.

With that over, they may only bomb a few of your cities into oblivion to
teach you not to do it again :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Our foreign policy is not a political issue."
--Harry S. Truman
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 113 At 02:50 15/08/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I'd like to see a "Target: Australia" by the end of '99. If I knew what
>that year would be ('97 is crime, '98 is corps, '99 is ?????) then I'd
>start throwing out ideas of my own. If I'd ever been there, I'd write a
>'net supplement.
>
umm i'd help, not to much of a writer though.

Dernhelm

Caught and trapped like a fox in the forest
Or a murderer in prison.
Yet what crime had I committed?
To be human in this world?
- By E. A. Bockman

Message no. 114 > >I'd like to see a "Target: Australia" by the end of '99. If I knew
what
> >that year would be ('97 is crime, '98 is corps, '99 is ?????) then I'd
> >start throwing out ideas of my own. If I'd ever been there, I'd write a
> >'net supplement.
> >
> umm i'd help, not to much of a writer though.

I am currently editing the Entirely Unofficial Australian Net Sourcebook
(which is also a submission for the current NERPS project). So far it's
been written by myself, Martin Gotthard, and Calvin Hsieh, with a little
help from our friends. If anyone from Australia wishes to join in on
this one, just let me know...

Lady Jestyr

-------------------------------------------------------------
Who says I'm crazy? I prefer the term 'sensibility deficient'
- Tamino
-------------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.com.au
http://jestyr.home.ml.org/
-------------------------------------------------------------

Message no. 115 In a message dated 97-08-20 07:09:23 EDT, you write:

> Or you find out which ship the nuke is on (they don't pump all that money
> into the CIA for nothing) and send in some anti-terrorism unit to take
> over the ship -- a big plus here is that the Americans could even actually
> use Delta Force (or whatever it's currently called) instead of the FBI's
> Hostage Rescue Team, since the ship isn't US territory... If they do it
> right (for which Delta Force is not particularly known when it comes to
> high-publicity cases, BTW :) nobody will have time to detonate the nuke
> before everyone on board the ship is shot dead.

The CIA is under-funded! They waste half a million dollars for a single
toilet seat!
And if you believe that, I've got some Florida swampland....

The team most likely used would be the SEALs, mainly since they're the only
one who haven't had a publicly realized major goof. And, they are among the
best.

Wolfstar

Message no. 116 > Fade said on 14:02/19 Aug 97...
>
> [dictator hides nuke on commercial ship to blow up NYC]
> > If the blackmail version, it would actually be a tough decision for
> > USA, because if they give in to it just once, then they will face the
> > situation again and again. Their reply would probably be, "Aha? Well,
> > if NY goes, so does: (Complete list of your cities)."... and continue
> > as before. (While evacuating NY). But loosing NY would be really bad,
> > too.
>
> Or you find out which ship the nuke is on (they don't pump all that money
> into the CIA for nothing)
This bit is easy. Find out which has an item on board with radiation
shielding.. or, as is even more likely, emits radiation. (We're
talking real dirty bombs here, most likely.).

> and send in some anti-terrorism unit to take
> over the ship -- a big plus here is that the Americans could even actually
> use Delta Force (or whatever it's currently called) instead of the FBI's
> Hostage Rescue Team, since the ship isn't US territory...
Or any other of a number of forces. Other countries also has
options.. Spetsnaz, SAS, and so on. All very skilled units.

> If they do it
> right (for which Delta Force is not particularly known when it comes to
> high-publicity cases, BTW :) nobody will have time to detonate the nuke
> before everyone on board the ship is shot dead.

Consider this... it's very similar to a hijacked plane situation. Not
many of those go off successfully. There is a big advantage, though,
on behalf of the special forces, an advantage often overlooked.

Who is in that ship?

They are, basically, morons. They volunteered to press the button on
a nuke at ground zero. You don't get educated, skilled personell to
do that. Now they would probably be the best of the morons, but still
morons. (They would probably prefer to be called patriots, freedom
fighters, or whatever.). But whoever rigged the ship's defenses
didn't have to be morons.. they could stay behind. Motion trackers,
sensors, infrared, watchers, whatever.

My money would likely be on the morons, as long as the ship was well
prepared. Too much can go wrong.

And remember, one of the scenarios was that the offender would not
even threaten its use; just detonate it as a diversion. Without
foreknowledge, there wouldn't be anyone even looking for it.

For this foreknowledge you need the CIA or its equivalent.. or a
stupid dictator. You can't count on stupid dictators.

> With that over, they may only bomb a few of your cities into oblivion to
> teach you not to do it again :)

Despite the smiley, I'll bite. The threat of nukes isn't enough to
use nukes yourself; the political environment will not tolerate
nuclear first strike. (It might, but it depends a lot on the
situation... enough so that I'd say it would most likely not be
acceptable.).

(Oh, but we're americans and can do anything!!) Well, each country's
got what is basically a political account. It can be spent, or built
up. When it's low, you receive trade sanctions, alliances crumble,
you will meet resistance at whatever you try to do. USA and most
western countries has a big surplus in their PA's. It would be spent
real fast using nukes. Iraq has <0 in its account, as is obvious.
Israel is spending theirs rapidly. (And we norwegians, on this
idiotic whaling business). And the PA can readily translate into cash
from trade revenues, favored trade partners and so on.

Doesn't stop you from using FAB's, though; almost as powerful without
the radiation. Why go for the 'Big Bad Weapon' when all you need is
to kill everything and everyone in the city? There's no money in
making it Cancer City for a hundred or so years. (FAB's.. Paul
Addams can tell you all about'em, I bet.).

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."

Message no. 117 On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:39:05 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>At 07:19 PM 8/20/97 +0100, Paul J. Adam wrote:
>#Remember, if there isn't a US flag flying then the American news
>#networks don't cover it, and if it wasn't reported in Milwaukee then
>it
>#never happened.
>
>So, Milwaukee is the centre of the unviverse?

No. Apparently just the US;)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1

Message no. 118 On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:17:00 GMT Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
writes:

>P.S.:Is paranoia a national sport over there?

<suspicion>
No. Why?
</suspicion>

:) Actually, I think it's more realted to the fact that the idiots are
the ones that seem to scream the loudest. It's funny, the same people
feel like they're persecuted because of their stupidity. <shrug>

/ John Pederson aka Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage \
| I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud |
< and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind. >
| --Francis Bacon /----------------------|
\ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 |lobo1@****.com /

Message no. 119 John E Pederson wrote:
|
| >P.S.:Is paranoia a national sport over there?
|
| :) Actually, I think it's more realted to the fact that the idiots are
| the ones that seem to scream the loudest. It's funny, the same people
| feel like they're persecuted because of their stupidity. <shrug>

Yup. I've got an employee that isn't to bright. She thinks she's being
persecuted when in fact she just doesn't think.

Which, BTW, would make a fun (for the GM) NPC. An NPC that's always
getting caught up in the PCs runs, getting shot at, getting run over,
get kidnapped, etc, and blaming the PCs on it all the time (calling
Lonestar to complain) when in fact it's the NPC's own stupid fault
for not getting out of the way, leaving when he should, opening his
mouth (aka Joe Peschi in the Lethal Weapon movies).

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."

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