Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:26:44 -0700
Ok..after some posting problems, then my POP server going down for 3 days,
then my login being invalid, I don't think anything else could go wrong!
So, here this is, about two weeks after I intended to start.

After thinking about it for awhile, I've decided to go ahead and try to
produce an E-mag dedicated to Shadowrun. I'm fairly certain that with the
amount of ideas that this list and other people online come up with, that a
fairly decent sized magazine each month or every other month can be filled.
Before I go ahead and officially announce it and such, I'm doing a little
test run on the list. Basically just a few questions and some space for
you to bat around ideas for it.

1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)
2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?
3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.
4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
every 2 months?
5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca

Thanks!
Fro
Message no. 2
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 20:58:18 EST
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:26:44 -0700 Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA> writes:
<snip>
>
>1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories,
>gear, etc)

uh...Yes:) Spells, gear and the like are good ideas, short stories and
sscenarios should be included to keep it interesting:) Maybe new
critters, races, and rules ideas would work

>2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

uh...me? No, probably not:( I'm not nearly creative enough:( My good
ideas are just rare enough to be completely irregular:) But, once it gets
hammered out, the magus tradition I just posted here or a spell or two
I've got tucked away are things I'd be willing to donate to the first
ish:)

>3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked
>to,
>Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

I'd go with RTF. It allows for more formatting and is (almost) as
universal. 'Sides, it looks snazzier:)

>4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger
>issue
>every 2 months?

I'd prefer every two, myself, but short issues once a month wouldn't be
all bad, either. Anything for reading material:)

>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of
>discarded
>suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only
>one I
>really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

That sounds good. Hmmmm...'The Darkling Glass' (probably doesn't fit with
the subject, but I thought it sounded cool:)? '

>General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or
>complex
>should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca
>
>Thanks!
>Fro
>
Message no. 3
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:11:26 -0800
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Richard Jury wrote:

> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear,etc)

All that plus "people" and "places" GM food for thought.

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Maybe..

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

Defenitely put out a pure ascii version. Its just plain universally
portable.

> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?

Don't matter as long as its worth reading.

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

'Seattle by Night', 'Corporate Downloads', ??? who knows?
>
> General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
> should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca
>
> Thanks!
> Fro
>

~Tim
Message no. 4
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:42:26 +0000
In article <3.0.32.19961129162640.0068490c@****.lis.ab.ca>, Richard Jury
<fro@***.AB.CA> writes
>Ok..after some posting problems, then my POP server going down for 3 days,
>then my login being invalid, I don't think anything else could go wrong!
>So, here this is, about two weeks after I intended to start.

Better late than never :)
(PS, where are the other two parts of the FAQ hiding???)

> After thinking about it for awhile, I've decided to go ahead and try to
>produce an E-mag dedicated to Shadowrun. I'm fairly certain that with the
>amount of ideas that this list and other people online come up with, that a
>fairly decent sized magazine each month or every other month can be filled.

Every other month would probably be easier for you, and would certainly
be easier for the list. :) With all the concepts and stuff that here, a
lot of discussion on a topic is usually held before a conclusion is
reached, not always amicably... Bi monthly will give you time to sort
out the chaff and compile it, and give people a chance to thrash an idea
out before it's submitted. Though I have doubts as to the extra traffic
this might cause in what is essentially and already busy list, some
people may be a bit unhappy about that, as they have to pay for their
mailbox space. Don't want to put you off, but it's something to
consider.

> Before I go ahead and officially announce it and such, I'm doing a little
>test run on the list. Basically just a few questions and some space for
>you to bat around ideas for it.

uhoh...

>1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

Yeah, that and maybe a few comments from FasaMike regarding some of the
stranger rules judgements in SR, it'll save the Mike said such and such
arguments,g canon, because effectively they;ll be in print.... though
I'm not sure if Mike will want to commit himself that strongly <grin>

>2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Maybe... <thinks...> hmmm maybe ;)

>3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
>Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

They are the most popular. All half decent word processors can deal
with RTF, and for those using older systems or without access to an
expensive word processor, plain text is pretty universal.

>4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
>every 2 months?

I personally would go for the larger issue every two months, for
simplicity and convenience sake, it means you have a longer preperation
time, and people who take a while preparing articles can think about
them a bit more. Not all of us can waffle on for great length about not
a lot of anything. <grin>

>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
>suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
>really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

How about Street Talk ???

>General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
>should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca

I think I've been short and simple for a change :)

>Thanks!

S'okay, for what it's worth... :)



--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 5
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:29:39 -0500
At 04:26 PM 11/29/96 -0700, Richard Jury wrote:

>1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

Yes...:)

Make it interesting, and full of useful information...

If you build it, they will come...

>2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Well, since I was one of the people you originally bounced this idea off of,
you already know my answer... but again... yup!:)

>3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
>Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

These would definately be my votes... Unfortunately, i cannot read RTF,
only plain text, so...:)

>4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
>every 2 months?

Either would be good, but doing it every 2 would give us more time to put
stuff together and edit it...

>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
>suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
>really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.
>

Hmmm... Here's a few ideas...

Tales from the Shadows
War Stories
Away from the Light
The Shadowrun Insider
Chaos, Inc.

Those are just a few ideas... But my favorite is Chaos, inc.

Bull (Steve)

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Sure, I've handled a machine gun lots of times.
I was the captain of the Machine Gun Team in High School."
-Jeff Goldblum, in some bad movie from the '80's called "Vibes"
Message no. 6
From: DT <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 00:38:27 -0500
> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)
> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?
> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.
> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?
> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.
>
Just a thought, but perhaps the mag issues could be organized around some
kind of theme, I was thinking, after the earlier discussion about how a
physad sourcebook would be interesting, that stressing PA's initially
would be a good idea. Just loosely, still spells included (for mages who
want that physical style though).

If I accidentally thought of something interesting, I'd be happy to
contribute, but I don't think I could be counted on for regular
contributions.

--Sanction
Message no. 7
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 03:26:57 GMT
John E Pederson (lobo1@****.COM) wrote:

: >3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked
: >to,
: >Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.
:
: I'd go with RTF. It allows for more formatting and is (almost) as
: universal. 'Sides, it looks snazzier:)

Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.

: >5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of
: >discarded
: >suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only
: >one I
: >really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.
: That sounds good. Hmmmm...'The Darkling Glass' (probably doesn't fit with
: the subject, but I thought it sounded cool:)? '

Hmmm... You mean something like "The Shadow Telegraph" ???

I think I like the general idea and I'd be willing to contribute
something to it -- although I cannot guarantee a certain amount of
text per month... ;-)

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:57:16 -0800
> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear,=
etc)

All of the above.
Basically I'd really like it to be everything KAGE never was! :-)

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Yes, but not until after the holidays.
Retail SUCKS!

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked =
to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

Does not matter.
RTF is no problem, and neither are any of the others I've heard
mentioned.
You just want to be sure that it's accessible to as many people as
possible, and that formatting doesn't take too much time.

> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issu=
e
> every 2 months?

A Larger issue every Month . . .Oh, that's not an option?
How bout every week?
Monthly then. :-)

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of disca=
rded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only on=
e I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

Way back when, I had a SR APAzine I called Remote ConTROLL.
You're welcome to use that name.
IMHO just pick something simple.
Don't make it too pretentious.
Even just "Shadow-zine" or SR Monthly is going to be better received
than a specific name like The Immoral Elf or even Remote ConTROLL.
Names like that caom with more excess baggage than a zine needs.

I'm not trying to slam your name selection, and I'll be a part of this
effort no matter what the frag you call it.
Just offering my two bit from my days as a newspaper editor.

Steven A. Tinner

FAMOUS LAST WORDS
“What was the deadline for that piece?”
Message no. 9
From: Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 02:24:28 -0700
At 03:26 11/30/96 GMT, you wrote:
>: I'd go with RTF. It allows for more formatting and is (almost) as
>: universal. 'Sides, it looks snazzier:)
>
>Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
>can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.

Nope.. I can't view or print postscript on this computer, nor on any
computer I've tried it on, so that is one option I didn't even consider.
From the looks of things, RTF + ascii will do the job nicely.

Fro
Message no. 10
From: Anders Ljung <Anders.Ljung@*******.SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:51:13 +0100
> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear,
> etc)

Exactly. And maybe small adventures or something to base adventures on.

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Not regular, irregular maybe.

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

I think Adobe Acrobat is good, maybe you could make one of ASCII and one PDF.
If you have the time, ofcourse.

> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?

I think a smaller one every month would be better.

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of
> discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

I know you said youv'e discarded everything that has something to do with shadow but...
Shadow on the net (or something like that.). I don't really think the name matters that
much.
Name it whatever you want.

> General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
> should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca

> Thanks!
> Fro
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:36:58 +0100
Richard Jury said on 16:26/29 Nov 96...

> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

Anything at all.

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Not sure, I'm doing too all at once much as it is :)

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

RTF. No PostScript because I don't own a printer for that, and plain ASCII
sucks when you have to read it. Put in a decent, easy on the eye layout in
a word processor, preferably using SR-like fonts to enhance the feeling
that it fits right in with the official books (something I wish Shadowland
would do...). Oh, and use a spell checker on it -- some people just can't
spell right if their lives depended on it.

> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?

I don't mind.

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

I don't think that's a good name for an SR e-zine, with the EI-bashing
we've had in the past :) Unfortunately I'm really bad at thinking up
names, so I can't help out I'm afraid.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And so am I.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:36:59 +0100
Georg Greve said on 3:26/30 Nov 96...

> Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
> can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.

I can see several rasons why Fro shouldn't use PostScript... Most
important is that you need either a PS printer or a software viewer to
use the damn stuff, and second it's at least 5 times bigger than a
comparable word processor file -- I've tried making PS versions of some
of the Plastic Warriors files, and you don't want to know what file size I
got out of it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And so am I.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 13
From: Peter Coxon <coxoff@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:24:21 UT
<SNIPPY SNIP SNIP!!!>
>1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, >etc)
NEw Gear/Weapons, Adventures, Short Stories, Archetypes, Contacts, Idea's For
background stuff Ie. Buy the NEW Nike Air Knights!!! (NO in game advantages
they just look kewl :) ) Note Nike is Wholly a Subsifduary of Ares.errrmmm
Vehicles, House rulez of the monthes ( i nearly spelt that wrong it would hav
ecome out as House rulez of the moths) I could probably come up with more but
its a bit early for me.....
>2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?
Errr probably :)
>3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
>Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.
???? One of Each ????
>4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
>every 2 months?
Why not go for a big one every month? no even once a week HAHHAHAHAH Te
POWER!!!!! ((that was monthly :) )
>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of >discarded
suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. >The only one I
really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.
??????????? HMMMmmmmmm ???????????


General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca

Thanks!
Fro
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:12:43 +0000
|
|John E Pederson (lobo1@****.COM) wrote:
|
|: >3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked
|: >to,
|: >Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.
|:
|: I'd go with RTF. It allows for more formatting and is (almost) as
|: universal. 'Sides, it looks snazzier:)
|
|Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
|can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.

Because it created files that are obscenely large and unwhieldy?
A magazine of any significant size in Postscript would probably cause my
mailbox to crash....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:27:32 +0000
|
|Georg Greve said on 3:26/30 Nov 96...
|
|> Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
|> can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.
|
|I can see several rasons why Fro shouldn't use PostScript... Most
|important is that you need either a PS printer or a software viewer to
|use the damn stuff, and second it's at least 5 times bigger than a
|comparable word processor file -- I've tried making PS versions of some
|of the Plastic Warriors files, and you don't want to know what file size I
|got out of it...

I do know...
I tried downloading one once and it overflowed my 5Meg account....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:44:05 -0700
Dark Avenger wrote:

>In article <3.0.32.19961129162640.0068490c@****.lis.ab.ca>, Richard Jury
><fro@***.AB.CA> writes
>
>>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
>>suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
>>really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.
>
>How about Street Talk ???

Hey, that's good.

-Dreamcatcher

"Ah to sleep, perchance to dream."
-Charles Emerson Winchester III

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/dbuehrer@****.org\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 17
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:50:38 -0500
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Georg Greve wrote:
> John E Pederson (lobo1@****.COM) wrote:


> : I'd go with RTF. It allows for more formatting and is (almost) as
> : universal. 'Sides, it looks snazzier:)
>
> Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
> can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.


Is it going to be put out on the mailing list? If so, then my
opinion on PostScript or RTF is: Absolutely NOT!

Do you know how much extra size a postscript version of a decent-length
newsletter would incur? RTF isn't any smaller. Both get ridiculously
larger if you put graphics into them.

I don't care to have that sitting in my mailbox at all.


Though ASCII may not get you any jollies, it's the way to go if you put
the document out on a mailing list.


Of course, if you e-mailed out a TeX source file, then it'd be barely
larger than the text itself.






If it's not meant to be echoed to the mailing list, then do as you like.
And if so, then sorry for my going off about a non-existent problem.




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 18
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:54:54 -0500
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Richard Jury wrote:

> Nope.. I can't view or print postscript on this computer, nor on any
> computer I've tried it on, so that is one option I didn't even consider.
> From the looks of things, RTF + ascii will do the job nicely.

Well I can veiw PS, but not RTF.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 19
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:01:46 -0500
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Gurth wrote:

> I can see several rasons why Fro shouldn't use PostScript... Most
> important is that you need either a PS printer or a software viewer to
> use the damn stuff, and second it's at least 5 times bigger than a
> comparable word processor file -- I've tried making PS versions of some
> of the Plastic Warriors files, and you don't want to know what file size I
> got out of it...

Well I can't read RTF, nor can I read Adobe Acrobat.

How about putting it up on a web page somewhere? That'd enable him to
take advantage of tables, formatting, etc, and it would be cross-platform.
The only document 'style' which is truly cross-platform is ASCII, unless
someone here is on an old mainframe.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account --- ---
and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 20
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:14:48 EST
On Sat, 30 Nov 1996 15:01:46 -0500 Brian W Allison
<ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU> writes:
>On Sat, 30 Nov 1996, Gurth wrote:
>
>> I can see several rasons why Fro shouldn't use PostScript... Most
>> important is that you need either a PS printer or a software viewer
>to
>> use the damn stuff, and second it's at least 5 times bigger than a
>> comparable word processor file -- I've tried making PS versions of
>some
>> of the Plastic Warriors files, and you don't want to know what file
>size I
>> got out of it...
>
> Well I can't read RTF, nor can I read Adobe Acrobat.
>
> How about putting it up on a web page somewhere? That'd enable him
>to
>take advantage of tables, formatting, etc, and it would be
>cross-platform.
>The only document 'style' which is truly cross-platform is ASCII,
>unless
>someone here is on an old mainframe.

Here's an idea: offer it in an HTML file...I would assume that it would
be possible for most of us here to view it, an dfor those that can't,
there are browsers available for free. For those who can't see it, offer
a plain ASCII text version...For myself, I'm not too particular as to
what format it's in, except that I can't get Ghostview to work and I'd
prefer to not have to download yet another program just so I can read a
single file or collection of files once a month. RTF format would be
viewable by most people, plain text ought to be viewable by everyone, and
PostScript should be viewable by the rest of us.

Advantages of RTF: More or less universal (supportable by programs on
many systems), allows for lots of formatting options
Disadvantages: Increases size many-fold, not convenient for everyone,
would require a compatible word-processor

Advantages of PostScript: Supportable on most systems, allows for lots of
formatting options
Disadvantages: Increases size greatly, isn't convenient for everyone,
would require special printer or viewer

Advantages of PDF: allows for losts of formatting options
Disadvantages: not widely supported, would require the use of a special
viewer or Adobe Acrobat

Advantages of ASCII text: Viewable by everyone, relatively small file
size
Disadvantages: can't add-in pics, looks rather mundane

Advantages of HTML: Should be supportable on all systems, allows for use
of fonts, text formatting, use of pictures, etc
Disadvantages: Cannot be integrated into a single file (complete with
pics, fonts, etc), requires a web browser which may not be run-able on
certain older systems

As I see it, the easiest way is, of course, going to be offering a
plain-text version. Fro said that he did not currently have a way of
using PostScript, so I'd rule that out. A few list members have voiced
that they do not currently have access to a way of viewing RTF, PS, or
both. I'd still leave it up to Fro (it is his project, after all:), but I
can't see that using one single format will be the best approach. I'd
say, offer it in ASCII text and one other, more flexible format-either
RTF or PS, HTML would be an option if it was to be posted on the web.

John Pederson "God is dead"
canthros@***.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to
1900)
lobo1@****.com "Nietzsche is dead"
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm -God (everlasting to everlasting)
Only dead fish swim with the stream
Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:56:32 +0100
John E Pederson said on 15:14/30 Nov 96...

> As I see it, the easiest way is, of course, going to be offering a
> plain-text version. Fro said that he did not currently have a way of
> using PostScript, so I'd rule that out. A few list members have voiced
> that they do not currently have access to a way of viewing RTF, PS, or
> both. I'd still leave it up to Fro (it is his project, after all:), but I
> can't see that using one single format will be the best approach. I'd
> say, offer it in ASCII text and one other, more flexible format-either
> RTF or PS, HTML would be an option if it was to be posted on the web.

IMHO, it would be best for Fro to bring out both an RTF version and an
ASCII one, with the same contents; any pictures included in the RTF file
could be zipped up with the ASCII one (before anyone says it, I know most
of the common graphic formats can't really be compressed because they
already are, but this would just be to keep it all together).

I don't really like HTML myself. Sure, it looks pretty good if you know
what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I
don't like having to start up my computer every time I want to read the
magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look all
that good in my experience.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Something's gotta give
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 22
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:02:32 GMT
Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
: IMHO, it would be best for Fro to bring out both an RTF version and an
: ASCII one, with the same contents; any pictures included in the RTF file
: could be zipped up with the ASCII one (before anyone says it, I know most
: of the common graphic formats can't really be compressed because they
: already are, but this would just be to keep it all together).

This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
EVERY OS.

: I don't really like HTML myself. Sure, it looks pretty good if you know
: what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I
: don't like having to start up my computer every time I want to read the
: magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look all
: that good in my experience.

Huh ???? Just take a web browser to take a look at it and printing it
is usually no problem at all. HTML is the only format besides
Postscript and ASCII that is readable by ALL people.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 23
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:58:07 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:

: Of course, if you e-mailed out a TeX source file, then it'd be barely
: larger than the text itself.

That's be fine as well... ".dvi" would be nice, too.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 24
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:55:50 GMT
Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
: Georg Greve said on 3:26/30 Nov 96...
: > Hmmm... why not use postscript ? It has even graphics/formatting and
: > can be used/read by EVERY system on this planet.
: I can see several rasons why Fro shouldn't use PostScript... Most
: important is that you need either a PS printer or a software viewer to
: use the damn stuff, and second it's at least 5 times bigger than a

But it is easily compressable which shrinks back to normal.

: comparable word processor file -- I've tried making PS versions of some
: of the Plastic Warriors files, and you don't want to know what file size I
: got out of it...

But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
single look at the Plastic Warrior files.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 25
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:35:23 -0500
On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

> John E Pederson said on 15:14/30 Nov 96...
>
> > As I see it, the easiest way is, of course, going to be offering a
> > plain-text version. Fro said that he did not currently have a way of
> > using PostScript, so I'd rule that out. A few list members have voiced
> > that they do not currently have access to a way of viewing RTF, PS, or
> > both. I'd still leave it up to Fro (it is his project, after all:), but I
> > can't see that using one single format will be the best approach. I'd
> > say, offer it in ASCII text and one other, more flexible format-either
> > RTF or PS, HTML would be an option if it was to be posted on the web.
>
> IMHO, it would be best for Fro to bring out both an RTF version and an
> ASCII one, with the same contents; any pictures included in the RTF file
> could be zipped up with the ASCII one (before anyone says it, I know most
> of the common graphic formats can't really be compressed because they
> already are, but this would just be to keep it all together).


Gurth is making assumptions. I don't use PKZip. I use gzip - it's free,
it's as good as PKZip, and it comes with sourcecode. Better yet, it's
available on unix - PKZip *is* *not*.


I thought this E-mag was supposed to be for all platforms? PKZip and RTF
are certainly not for unix. It isn't fair to expect Fro to make an
additional platform-specific version just because you (Gurth) find it
pleasing?


> I don't really like HTML myself. Sure, it looks pretty good if you know

This isn't a question of 'likes'.

We can all read HTML. We can all read ASCII. Not all of us can read RTF.
Not all of us can read PDF.

Not all of us are using DOS/Windoze machines. Some of us have Linux
machines.


> what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I

A "point, button down, drag, button up, then hit Return" is a pain in
the ass? Man, you have a low pain threshhold.

I'm using Netscape.

> magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look all
> that good in my experience.

Well here again you go - being egocentric.

I won't tell you that you should learn how to print out HTML files so
that they don't look poorly - so please don't tell me I should switch over
to a broken operating environment or broken OS, and please don't tell me
that since you and a bunch of other people can read RTF that I should be
able to as well. It just isn't true.




The issue being discussed was "cross-platform E-mag". Well, the answer
seems to be "ASCII or HTML". Nothing else is cross-platform, and both of
those can be e-mailed without any problem for the recipients. RTF,
PostScript, PDFs, these are all binaries and are *large*.




Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

"Pearl Harbor '42 Chernybol '86 Windows '95"
Message no. 26
From: Avenger <Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:48:42 +0000
In article <E1qK88.4wI@*******.hanse.de>, Georg Greve
<greve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes
>Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
>: IMHO, it would be best for Fro to bring out both an RTF version and an
>: ASCII one, with the same contents; any pictures included in the RTF file
>: could be zipped up with the ASCII one (before anyone says it, I know most
>: of the common graphic formats can't really be compressed because they
>: already are, but this would just be to keep it all together).
>
>This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
>Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
>EVERY OS.

Actualy RTF is smaller than Postscript, what changes this situation is
included graphics. Aside from which, just having a viewer for
postscript does not necessarily mean that it is printable from that
viewer. It also very much depends on the machine type as to wether a
viewer is practicle. I personally, and a large number of people I know,
have no means whatsoever to view, print or edit postscript, it just
comes across as garbaged junk.

>: don't like having to start up my computer every time I want to read the
>: magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look all
>: that good in my experience.
>
>Huh ???? Just take a web browser to take a look at it and printing it
>is usually no problem at all. HTML is the only format besides
>Postscript and ASCII that is readable by ALL people.

I am aware of a large number of Postscript viewers that are available on
the net, and on a number of magazine cover disks occassionally, however,
your comment about Postscript being a file standard readable by ALL
machines and *all* people is just plain rubbish. I know a *large*
number of people, and software products that *can't read it, and several
of the popular word processor packages will not entertain it unless you
have a postscript printer. Most people have a very basic laser or
inkjet, some only have dot matrix.

As regards web browsers, there are still people who are unable to use
them, some people only have mail accounts and have no need to clutter up
their machine with a browser, or are part of a locked network using mail
rerouting and are unable to use browsers because of firewalls, so HTML
isn't really an option. As for printing the HTML document, I don't have
any problem with it, but prefer to cut and paste into a word processor
for this purpose. However, there are systems that cannot print web
pages... The printer can't cope with it. Especially if a background or
other graphics are included. So this doesn't always work out to be the
most favourable method. The other side of this coin, is for the person
creating the document, to make it look nice, and attractive, to
accurately include graphics into it (if this is an option) to format the
document for some visual effect, takes time. Not everyone has the time
to sit back and create a good looking HTML document, in fact not
everybody understands how to.

It *is* however, as you say, one of the most commonly viewable files.
But there *are* some people who can't. Regarding HTML, unless you are
going to do something *interesting* with it, and create an attractive
document it seems a waste of time, turning a basic text file into an
HTML file, as nothing is really going to be achieved, it'll end up
looking the same.

The only format that is universal and I don't think anyone will argue
the point, is ASCII, but this doesn't allow for any formatting, and just
becomes a text dump, which is not only boring, but also unattractive.
RTF, is *one* of the more universal file types, hence the reason 90
percent of word processors support it. Also, you wrongly imply that RTF
is Windows based, sorry that's not true. OS2 and Macintosh are more than
capable of viewing this file type. I believe that Dos based systems,
UNIX and Linux, may have a problem with it, but I don't use these
systems and have no intention of using them, so I can't say for any
certainty.


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 27
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:25:46 GMT
Avenger (Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:
: >This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
: >Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
: >EVERY OS.
: Actualy RTF is smaller than Postscript, what changes this situation is
: included graphics. Aside from which, just having a viewer for
: postscript does not necessarily mean that it is printable from that
: viewer. It also very much depends on the machine type as to wether a
: viewer is practicle. I personally, and a large number of people I know,
: have no means whatsoever to view, print or edit postscript, it just
: comes across as garbaged junk.

What system are you running ? Definitely not ATARI ST, UNIX, Windows,
DOS, AMIGA OS or Macintosh because I know there are viewers AND
printers for all of these - for postscript, that is.

: I am aware of a large number of Postscript viewers that are available on
: the net, and on a number of magazine cover disks occassionally, however,
: your comment about Postscript being a file standard readable by ALL
: machines and *all* people is just plain rubbish. I know a *large*
: number of people, and software products that *can't read it, and several
: of the popular word processor packages will not entertain it unless you
: have a postscript printer. Most people have a very basic laser or
: inkjet, some only have dot matrix.

Then you know a large lot of people who do not use any of the OS named
above...

: The only format that is universal and I don't think anyone will argue
: ...
: systems and have no intention of using them, so I can't say for any
: certainty.

I use Linux myself and there is no good possibility to view or print
RTF files but Postscript is DEFINTELY viewable AND printable by
Macintosh, OS2 and every Microsuck based system.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 28
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:08:52 PST
<snip PostScript is a binariy>
Actually, it's not, I could send myself of .ps file form o machine far away
through email without doing anything to it. But it is big.
Message no. 29
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:22:12 -0500
Georg Greve[SMTP:greve@*******.HANSE.DE] wrote:
>Avenger (Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:
>: >This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
>: >Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
>: >EVERY OS.
>: Actualy RTF is smaller than Postscript, what changes this situation is
>: included graphics. Aside from which, just having a viewer for
>: postscript does not necessarily mean that it is printable from that
>: viewer. It also very much depends on the machine type as to wether a
>: viewer is practicle. I personally, and a large number of people I know,
>: have no means whatsoever to view, print or edit postscript, it just
>: comes across as garbaged junk.
>
>What system are you running ? Definitely not ATARI ST, UNIX, Windows,
>DOS, AMIGA OS or Macintosh because I know there are viewers AND
>printers for all of these - for postscript, that is.
>
>: I am aware of a large number of Postscript viewers that are available on
>: the net, and on a number of magazine cover disks occassionally, however,
>: your comment about Postscript being a file standard readable by ALL
>: machines and *all* people is just plain rubbish. I know a *large*
>: number of people, and software products that *can't read it, and several
>: of the popular word processor packages will not entertain it unless you
>: have a postscript printer. Most people have a very basic laser or
>: inkjet, some only have dot matrix.
>
>Then you know a large lot of people who do not use any of the OS named
>above...
>
>: The only format that is universal and I don't think anyone will argue
>: ...
>: systems and have no intention of using them, so I can't say for any
>: certainty.
>
>I use Linux myself and there is no good possibility to view or print
>RTF files but Postscript is DEFINTELY viewable AND printable by
>Macintosh, OS2 and every Microsuck based system.

Eh? OS2 has more or less been declared Anathema by Mickeysoft (they don't
even PRODUCE a WP for OS2.) Mac certainly isn't a MS toady either.

And I just dropped into Yahoo and found converters for RTF to * (including
LaTex, TeX, and HTML)

RTF is a universal format. Just as much as postscript is. And I am really
beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is the
one true operating system.

I ran Linux on my machine, I still would if I had the hard drive space. I
use my school's UNIX boxes to do my programming projects on.

But my personal machine (the one I am composing this reply on) runs Windows
95 and DOS. (I have customized both fairly heavily.) Why, because I can run
my games, and I like the pretty pictures.



I do apologize for saying that RTF was an IBM standard, I was wrong.
Microsoft did invent it. For exchanging editable information across
multiple platforms.

In the end, that is why I prefer RTF to any other format. I can edit it.
Message no. 30
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 18:37:19 +0000
|But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
|else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
|single look at the Plastic Warrior files.

That is a good point....
The worst format anyone can use for distributable stuff is something for an
individual word-processor...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:38:48 GMT
Jonathan Hurley (jhurley1@******.STEVENS-TECH.EDU) wrote:

: And I just dropped into Yahoo and found converters for RTF to * (including
: LaTex, TeX, and HTML)

Yeah but they suck big time. I once had to use them to convert a small
text and it took me a LOT of time and megabytes of diskspace for fonts
and stuff.

: RTF is a universal format. Just as much as postscript is. And I am really

Nope. I've never heard of a "RTF-printer" for instance. Postscript is
THE portable universal format, RTF is just another format basically
designed for amateur systems (Microsoft ones).

: beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is the
: one true operating system.

Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
crappy to be called a real OS.

: I ran Linux on my machine, I still would if I had the hard drive space. I
: use my school's UNIX boxes to do my programming projects on.
: But my personal machine (the one I am composing this reply on) runs Windows
: 95 and DOS. (I have customized both fairly heavily.) Why, because I can run
: my games, and I like the pretty pictures.

I can run games as well when I want to (LILO does the trick), but I
would never ever trust Windoze to handle any of my data.

: I do apologize for saying that RTF was an IBM standard, I was wrong.
: Microsoft did invent it. For exchanging editable information across
: multiple platforms.

Multiple MICROSOFT platforms, that is.

: In the end, that is why I prefer RTF to any other format. I can edit it.

If I want to edit things, I use LaTeX to create dvi & postscript...

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 32
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:57:09 +0000
|: beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is the
|: one true operating system.
|
|Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
|crappy to be called a real OS.

Bravo!
(You left out QDOS and SMSQ, but I'll let you off being as they're a bit
obscure.... They beat anything by Microsoft as well....)


--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:09:13 +0000
In message <E1r84o.rt@*******.hanse.de>, Georg Greve
<greve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes
>
>Nope. I've never heard of a "RTF-printer" for instance. Postscript is
>THE portable universal format, RTF is just another format basically
>designed for amateur systems (Microsoft ones).

Unfortunately, like others, I have nothing available that will view or
print Postscript files. I can manage .RTF easily and would prefer that:
ASCII will do if it ends the squabbling.

>Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
>crappy to be called a real OS.

So? Works for me, I just want the lights to flash and my mail to get
through. Don't have the time or energy to spare to learn, install, and
configure Linux when Windoze works perfectly well for what I want.

Well, we're into the War of the OSes, and I guess the actual issue -
like, what format(s) should this magazine be in - is going to get lost.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 34
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 04:18:20 +0000
On 1 Dec 96 at 12:55, Georg Greve wrote:
[snip format discussion]
> But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
> else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
> single look at the Plastic Warrior files.
RTF is readable by more word processors the the Windoof Word... Word perfect
does the trick, and several else should make it too. Apart from that, MS does
offer a viewer that might be able to decipher RTF, too, for free.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |'The rich control |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| The Government, |
| \___ __/ | | The Media, |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | And the Law!' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - Queensryche |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 35
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:10:34 +1100
Hmmm as for the format, I'd vote RTF. Or, if Fro has the time, an ASCII
version and a Word-formatted version. (Everyone's used to Word after
Plastic Warriors...) I'd be happy to format the ASCII into a Word version
if you don't have time, Fro.


Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 36
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:23:55 +1100
> Well here again you go - being egocentric.

<snip res of Brian's rant>

Woah, take a chill pill, man! Gurth's post was liberally scattered with
IMHOs and I for one agree with him... hell, disagree if you like, but
don't get so NASTY about it!

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 37
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:34:38 +1100
Right, how about we all cut the whinging, the
my-OS-is-better-than-your-OS-ing, and the flaming. I think we're agreed
that an ASCII document is *THE* universal format - I've not seen anyone
say they can't read ASCII, but plenty of people can't read RTF or PS, or
both.

So, what say we ask Fro - NICELY - to do us an ASCII version of the
E-mag. Then he can do a PS *and* and RTF version, and post them on his web
page - OR he could nominate people to do the different versions, using the
same graphics. I'd be more than happy to do a Word version and/or an RTF
version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.

In any case, let's all quit getting nasty about this and appreciate the
constructive opportunities here, yes?


Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 38
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:13:09 -0500
At 04:25 PM 12/1/96 GMT, Georg Greve wrote:
>Avenger (Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:
>: >This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
>: >Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
>: >EVERY OS.
>: Actualy RTF is smaller than Postscript, what changes this situation is
>: included graphics. Aside from which, just having a viewer for
>: postscript does not necessarily mean that it is printable from that
>: viewer. It also very much depends on the machine type as to wether a
>: viewer is practicle. I personally, and a large number of people I know,
>: have no means whatsoever to view, print or edit postscript, it just
>: comes across as garbaged junk.
>
>What system are you running ? Definitely not ATARI ST, UNIX, Windows,
>DOS, AMIGA OS or Macintosh because I know there are viewers AND
>printers for all of these - for postscript, that is.
>
I honostly don't think it has ANYTHING to do with the system you are on.
Almost everything out there is in someway compatible with everything else,
even if it takes a few conversion programs, viewers, and whatever else to do it.

The problem, however, is that some of us cannot get ahold of these viewers,
word processors, or whatever for various reasons. Myself, I know it's a
simple problem of space. I have no room on my compy for any new programs.
I'm working with a bare minimum. Also, some people can only use whatever
happens to be on their school account. I have a couple friends who cannot
load ANYTHINg into their system, and so have to make do. And finally, you
get used to running one type of program, and unfortunately, they aren't all
identicle. It's a pain in the ass switching word processing progs, cause
everything's in a different place, or doesn't have a certain feature, or
whatever...

Simply put, I'm not saying it has to be this type or that type... But
sinplicity is best. Most people are comforatable woth RTF. Seems to be the
most popular of the format styles... And by using ASCII, you are
gauranteeing that everyone will be able to read it, because if you can't
read plain ASCII, then you aren't reading my mail, because that's what this
is sent out as...

Whatever... Sorry about the rant, but this is annoying... After a few good
points and a good discussion, sometimes these threads break down into a
couple of people on each side of an argument going I'm right and you're not,
and no one is any longer making a new or valid point. It's just petty
bickering, and name calling, and frankly, that's what this is degenerating
into...

Besides, Fearless Assistant Leader Fro (That's the right title, isn't it?),
can only put this E-Mag into formats he can utilize, and I believe he's
stated that Post Script isn't an option for him. (I could be wrong here,
though, and if so, sorry and ignore me...:))

>: I am aware of a large number of Postscript viewers that are available on
>: the net, and on a number of magazine cover disks occassionally, however,
>: your comment about Postscript being a file standard readable by ALL
>: machines and *all* people is just plain rubbish. I know a *large*
>: number of people, and software products that *can't read it, and several
>: of the popular word processor packages will not entertain it unless you
>: have a postscript printer. Most people have a very basic laser or
>: inkjet, some only have dot matrix.
>
>Then you know a large lot of people who do not use any of the OS named
>above...
>
You are missing the point and being insulting... He's not saying the
software isn't available, just that most people he knows doesn't have it.
By itself, no OS can read much of anything, whether it's MS, DOS, Mac, or
whatever... You still need the software to use it, and Software using Post
Script Software isn't as common as RTF, in my experiance. I personally
don't know anyone with a PS printer, and that's where the trouble lies...
This stuff doesn't do a whole lot of good if you can't print it out. Not
many of us play SR in front of the Compy (at least not until we all get
Laptops:))

>: The only format that is universal and I don't think anyone will argue
>: ...
>: systems and have no intention of using them, so I can't say for any
>: certainty.
>
>I use Linux myself and there is no good possibility to view or print
>RTF files but Postscript is DEFINTELY viewable AND printable by
>Macintosh, OS2 and every Microsuck based system.
>
Ok, stop the Microsoft bashing too, please... It's not perfect, but then, I
have yet to get a Mac computer to do anything for me, and I spent a year
selling the damn things. One sytem is as good as another, if you know ow to
use it... Or rather, if you don't know how to use the others...:) I don't
have OS2, Mac, Linux, unix, or whatever other -ix system is available, and I
certaily don't have the monety to get one, nor would I know how to use it if
I did. I find it somewhat insulting to be told all the time taht everything
I use sucks, because it's certainly better than the alternative...

Anyways, you seem to completely exclude ASCII from your argument in the
first place, so let me ask... Can you read plain ASCII? If not, please
explain how you manage to read this?

Once again, sorry for the rant, but after 20 messages of the same "This
sucks, this is better, and you don't know drek", I get really tired of wading...

Steve (Bull)

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Sure, I've handled a machine gun lots of times.
I was the captain of the Machine Gun Team in High School."
-Jeff Goldblum, in some bad movie from the '80's called "Vibes"
Message no. 39
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:07:54 +1100
> Once again, sorry for the rant, but after 20 messages of the same "This
> sucks, this is better, and you don't know drek", I get really tired of wading...

Wahoo! Hear hear! Thankyou! :)

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 40
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 01:34:33 -0500
At 03:34 PM 12/2/96 +1100, The Jestyr wrote:
>Right, how about we all cut the whinging, the
>my-OS-is-better-than-your-OS-ing, and the flaming. I think we're agreed
>that an ASCII document is *THE* universal format - I've not seen anyone
>say they can't read ASCII, but plenty of people can't read RTF or PS, or
>both.
>
>So, what say we ask Fro - NICELY - to do us an ASCII version of the
>E-mag. Then he can do a PS *and* and RTF version, and post them on his web
>page - OR he could nominate people to do the different versions, using the
>same graphics. I'd be more than happy to do a Word version and/or an RTF
>version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
>mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.
>
>In any case, let's all quit getting nasty about this and appreciate the
>constructive opportunities here, yes?
>
>Lady Jestyr
>
YEAH! Good to read ya Lady J... Glad to see a third clear head on the
subject...:)

Bull

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"Sure, I've handled a machine gun lots of times.
I was the captain of the Machine Gun Team in High School."
-Jeff Goldblum, in some bad movie from the '80's called "Vibes"
Message no. 41
From: Chuck Stevens <harmonix@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 23:30:30 -0800
> Avenger (Avenger@********.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:

[Snip]

> I use Linux myself and there is no good possibility to view or print
> RTF files but Postscript is DEFINTELY viewable AND printable by
> Macintosh, OS2 and every Microsuck based system.
>
> Later,
> Georg

Then come on over and get it to work on my Win95 machine. Ghostscript
does nothing but mangle anything I touch with it. I'm not going to spend
gobs of nuyen to buy a Postscript printer. No, as most everyone has
already said, RTF and ASCII are the best bets. RTF for the Word Processor
Endowed, ASCII for the rest of ya.
Chuck
Message no. 42
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:48:08 GMT
Bull (chaos@*****.COM) wrote:

: I honostly don't think it has ANYTHING to do with the system you are on.
: Almost everything out there is in someway compatible with everything else,
: even if it takes a few conversion programs, viewers, and whatever else to do it.

That is true for a lot of things, but NOT for RTF or Microsuck Word formats.

: The problem, however, is that some of us cannot get ahold of these viewers,
: word processors, or whatever for various reasons. Myself, I know it's a

Start archie, look for "gsview", click on download, that's it.

: simple problem of space. I have no room on my compy for any new programs.

If you don't have a few hundred K left for working space, you should
maybe think about another Harddisk, huh ?

: identicle. It's a pain in the ass switching word processing progs, cause
: everything's in a different place, or doesn't have a certain feature, or
: whatever...

All you'd have to do is to link the ".ps" ending to the ghostview
program and you just have to click on the postscript file to view
it. That should be easy enough.

: This stuff doesn't do a whole lot of good if you can't print it out. Not
: many of us play SR in front of the Compy (at least not until we all get
: Laptops:))

Ghostview is well capable of printing things usually.

: Anyways, you seem to completely exclude ASCII from your argument in the
: first place, so let me ask... Can you read plain ASCII? If not, please
: explain how you manage to read this?

Like I said. ASCII and Postscript are the only really universal
formats available for all machines.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 43
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:34:19 GMT
Paul J. Adam (shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK) wrote:
: In message <E1r84o.rt@*******.hanse.de>, Georg Greve
: <greve@*******.HANSE.DE> writes
: >
: >Nope. I've never heard of a "RTF-printer" for instance. Postscript is
: >THE portable universal format, RTF is just another format basically
: >designed for amateur systems (Microsoft ones).
: Unfortunately, like others, I have nothing available that will view or
: print Postscript files. I can manage .RTF easily and would prefer that:
: ASCII will do if it ends the squabbling.

If you got a Microsoft system (as your statement below suggests) there
are programs that handle viewing and printing of Postscript easily
(try to look for ghostscript / ghostview - I think the microsoft
version has this "gsview" filename...)

: >Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
: >crappy to be called a real OS.
: So? Works for me, I just want the lights to flash and my mail to get
: through. Don't have the time or energy to spare to learn, install, and
: configure Linux when Windoze works perfectly well for what I want.

If it works for you, it's fine. I do not want to force you to actually
get deep in to computers, so use it and be happy with it.

: Well, we're into the War of the OSes, and I guess the actual issue -
: like, what format(s) should this magazine be in - is going to get lost.

Actually, I'm not - but I'd like to see the Magazine done in something
any professional system on the world might be able to hande - so HTML
or Postscript, NOT RTF.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 44
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:50:52 GMT
The Jestyr (jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU) wrote:

: version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
: mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.

Interesting phrase you use after complaining about flaming...

Later,
Georg

P.S. I cannot speak for Brian, but I'd be willing to help in the
Postscript version...

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 45
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:29:48 GMT
Spike (u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK) wrote:
: |: beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is the
: |: one true operating system.
: |
: |Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
: |crappy to be called a real OS.
: Bravo!
: (You left out QDOS and SMSQ, but I'll let you off being as they're a bit
: obscure.... They beat anything by Microsoft as well....)

I apologize for that. I left out VMS as well - VMS is old and crappy
and a pain in the ass to use, but it is a real OS, at least.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 46
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:39:37 GMT
The Jestyr (jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU) wrote:
: Hmmm as for the format, I'd vote RTF. Or, if Fro has the time, an ASCII
: version and a Word-formatted version. (Everyone's used to Word after
: Plastic Warriors...) I'd be happy to format the ASCII into a Word version

Nope. Several people just never were able to even have a look at it
because it is in this crappy Windoze format. The same would be
happening to the new magazine if it would be published in that format
or RTF.

The only formats that ensure everyone is (at least theoretically) able
to read it are ASCII and Postscript because these are the only formats
available for all systems. You could now say you don't have it, but
when you are able to access the net or know anyone who is, this should
be no problem at all - just pull down the proper programs for you
machine.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 47
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 05:58:57 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> > Well here again you go - being egocentric.
>
> <snip res of Brian's rant>
>
> Woah, take a chill pill, man! Gurth's post was liberally scattered with
> IMHOs and I for one agree with him... hell, disagree if you like, but
> don't get so NASTY about it!

Well, then let him stop and reverse the logic - and the rest of everyone
else as well. If "I don't like X because I can't read it" and "I don't
like Y because I have a hard time downloading it" are valid logics for
him, then the several times that those logic statements have been used
*against* RTF might have been listened to.

No. Instead, we get Gurth (and now several others) repeating themselves
by saying the same thing they'ver already said: "I prefer RTF - I can't
download and view Postscript, besides everyone else can read RTF."

The latter is, of course, false.


So take your own chillpill. Everyone else too. Particularly now that the
point has been moot. Remember: 24 hours ago, Fro decided what format he
was using. Further discussion is an exercise in typing.


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 48
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 06:01:04 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, The Jestyr wrote:

> So, what say we ask Fro - NICELY - to do us an ASCII version of the

You're behind SOTA. He made his decision - based on Gurth's advice
"Because Gurth has done this before" - about 24 hours ago.

> version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
> mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.

Now who's getting snippy, eh?



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 49
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:20:20 -0800
Richard Jury wrote:
>
> Ok..after some posting problems, then my POP server going down for 3 days,
> then my login being invalid, I don't think anything else could go wrong!
> So, here this is, about two weeks after I intended to start.
>
> After thinking about it for awhile, I've decided to go ahead and try to
> produce an E-mag dedicated to Shadowrun. I'm fairly certain that with the
> amount of ideas that this list and other people online come up with, that a
> fairly decent sized magazine each month or every other month can be filled.
> Before I go ahead and officially announce it and such, I'm doing a little
> test run on the list. Basically just a few questions and some space for
> you to bat around ideas for it.
>
> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

Short stories.

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

I could indeed...

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

ascii is probably the handiest.
> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?

every month

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

"Black Seed" [hey it sounded good at the time!]

>
> General replies and such should go to the list, anything long or complex
> should go straight to me, fro@***.ab.ca
>
> Thanks!
> Fro
Message no. 50
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:21:13 +1100
> : version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
> : mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.
>
> Interesting phrase you use after complaining about flaming...

Sorry; was not intended as a flame. Guess I forgot the smiley. :)

> P.S. I cannot speak for Brian, but I'd be willing to help in the
> Postscript version...

Oh goody. I'm in the RTF camp myself, but only cause I happen to hate PS.
:)

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 51
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:23:49 +1100
> > So, what say we ask Fro - NICELY - to do us an ASCII version of the
>
> You're behind SOTA. He made his decision - based on Gurth's advice
> "Because Gurth has done this before" - about 24 hours ago.

*grin* Well I didn't know that when I replied... :) This darn mailing list
creates such a traffic, how am I to know what's 300 messages down the
list? (No kidding. When I logged in this morning I had 384 messages. And
that's on a good day. My mailbox record is 1487 messages!)


Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 52
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:24:54 +0100
Georg Greve said on 12:55/ 1 Dec 96...

> But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
> else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
> single look at the Plastic Warrior files.

That's not what this was about... RTF can be read by any half-decent word
processor, so that'd be a good choice for Fro's E-zine IMO. As for thw PW
files, yes, they're Word 6.0 format because that's what I switched to
after getting fed up with WordPerfect 6.0 crashing on me every other
minute... If you haven't got anything at all which will open them for you,
try the Word Viewer, on Microsoft's web page somewhere.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 53
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:24:54 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 10:35/ 1 Dec 96...

> Gurth is making assumptions. I don't use PKZip. I use gzip - it's free,
> it's as good as PKZip, and it comes with sourcecode. Better yet, it's
> available on unix - PKZip *is* *not*.

It is for me and for everybody else I know. Whether that's legal or not, I
know nor care. My making assumptions about PKZip is because I assume that
everybody these days has access to a PC that runs MS DOS in one form or
another. (If you don't, don't start another one of those MS-bashing threads
because frankly, I've gotten quite sick of them. Thank you.)

> I thought this E-mag was supposed to be for all platforms? PKZip and RTF
> are certainly not for unix. It isn't fair to expect Fro to make an
> additional platform-specific version just because you (Gurth) find it
> pleasing?

Fro asked for opinions, I was giving him mine. That's all.

> > I don't really like HTML myself. Sure, it looks pretty good if you know
>
> This isn't a question of 'likes'.

See above.

> > what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I
>
> A "point, button down, drag, button up, then hit Return" is a pain in
> the ass? Man, you have a low pain threshhold.

What about graphics in the text? To get them as well, I'm going to have to
right-click on each one, select "Save image", and hit enter. If there are
only a few graphics this isn't much of a bother, but with lots of them, it
gets irritating real quick.

> > magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look all
> > that good in my experience.
>
> Well here again you go - being egocentric.

What?!! I'm making observations about how and why I *personally* don't
like HTML all that much, and you're trying to make it seem as though I'm
ramming it down everybody's throats! I want stuff to look good, because a
well-produced file/book/magazine/whatever reads a lot easier than blocky
ASCII text. If that's a definition of being egocentric, then hell, yeah
I'm egocentric.

> I won't tell you that you should learn how to print out HTML files so
> that they don't look poorly - so please don't tell me I should switch over
> to a broken operating environment or broken OS, and please don't tell me
> that since you and a bunch of other people can read RTF that I should be
> able to as well. It just isn't true.

I'm not going to even comment on this...

> The issue being discussed was "cross-platform E-mag". Well, the answer
> seems to be "ASCII or HTML". Nothing else is cross-platform, and both of
> those can be e-mailed without any problem for the recipients. RTF,
> PostScript, PDFs, these are all binaries and are *large*.

So go with the solution Fro (and I) suggested at the start: RTF for those
who want a nice-looking mag, ASCII for all those who don't/can't/won't use
RTF for whatever reasons they may have.

> "Pearl Harbor '42 Chernybol '86 Windows '95"

I somehow don't think you're being completely objective, if you include
Windows 95 in a list of what I think you believe to be disasters. You're
really good at blowing things out of all proportions, aren't you?

(Oh, and Pearl Harbor was in 1941.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 54
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:24:55 +0100
Spike said on 18:37/ 1 Dec 96...

> The worst format anyone can use for distributable stuff is something for an
> individual word-processor...

Thank you :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 55
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:24:54 +0100
Georg Greve said on 13:02/ 1 Dec 96...

> This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
> Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
> EVERY OS.

*sigh* RTF is damn well smaller than PS. I agree with you that PS can be
read by just about any computer (even Andy's QL :), but that doesn't mean
I like the format. You seem to, though, and that's your good right, but
this is getting nowhere...

> : I don't really like HTML myself.
>
> Huh ???? Just take a web browser to take a look at it and printing it
> is usually no problem at all. HTML is the only format besides
> Postscript and ASCII that is readable by ALL people.

*sigh again* Printing out HTML is a stop-gap measure, IMO. If you want to
have a hardcopy of a text, you can do far better-looking things in word
processors and DTP programs, while HTML is much better suited to files you
only want to view with your computer.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 56
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:36:18 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 6:01/ 2 Dec 96...

> > So, what say we ask Fro - NICELY - to do us an ASCII version of the
>
> You're behind SOTA.

You must be forgetting that not everybody reads their mail in the same
timezone -- what is a day-old post to you may be a new mail to someone
else. Anyway, let's get back to the flames at hand...

> He made his decision - based on Gurth's advice "Because Gurth has done
> this before" - about 24 hours ago.

You can't deny that I have some experience in formatting stuff in a word
processor; if Fro thinks that makes my comments advice to be listened to,
then I'm not going to stop him. In the end, it all comes down to what Fro
thinks is the best way to deal with this, whether he bases his decision
on what I said about my preferences, or you about yours, or on the ideas
he had himself before he even posted his request.

My position on this and most anything else: *any* comment made by
*anyone* (including this one) is only advice to be considered; if anyone's
trying to tell you otherwise, then *certainly* only take it as advice.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 57
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:08:16 +0000
|
|On 1 Dec 96 at 12:55, Georg Greve wrote:
|[snip format discussion]
|> But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
|> else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
|> single look at the Plastic Warrior files.
|RTF is readable by more word processors the the Windoof Word... Word perfect
|does the trick, and several else should make it too. Apart from that, MS does
|offer a viewer that might be able to decipher RTF, too, for free.

A viewer what won't run on my computer at home.....
And I don't have a single wordprocessor that can handle RTF....
(I don't think... I'll have to check text87......)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 58
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:41:37 +0000
|Actually, I'm not - but I'd like to see the Magazine done in something
|any professional system on the world might be able to hande - so HTML
|or Postscript, NOT RTF.

Look!
Once and for all, Fro can NOT handle Postscript, so the argument is null and
void, and a hell of a lot of other people can't handle RTF, so that should
be null and void as well...

That leaves ASCII or HTML and I for one vote for ASCII....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 59
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:52:11 +0000
|
|Spike said on 18:37/ 1 Dec 96...
|
|> The worst format anyone can use for distributable stuff is something for an
|> individual word-processor...
|
|Thank you :)

Sorry Gurth, but I never managed to get the files to work here....
We had the wrong version of Microsloth worst....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 60
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:07:34 GMT
Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
: Georg Greve said on 13:02/ 1 Dec 96...
: > This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
: > Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
: > EVERY OS.
: *sigh* RTF is damn well smaller than PS. I agree with you that PS can be
: read by just about any computer (even Andy's QL :), but that doesn't mean
: I like the format. You seem to, though, and that's your good right, but
: this is getting nowhere...

Packed it isn't anymore. But what about Adobe Acrobat ? That is easily
convertable to Postscript for anyone who needs PS PLUS it is about 10
times smaller (probably even smaller than RTF) AND there are very
decent readers/printing tools for Windows.

: *sigh again* Printing out HTML is a stop-gap measure, IMO. If you want to
: have a hardcopy of a text, you can do far better-looking things in word
: processors and DTP programs, while HTML is much better suited to files you
: only want to view with your computer.

Strange. I never had any problems printing out HTML... but we could
leave it out of the discussion because I don't like it that much as
well.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 61
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:34:37 GMT
John E Pederson writes

> Here's an idea: offer it in an HTML file...I would assume that it would
> be possible for most of us here to view it, an dfor those that can't,
> there are browsers available for free. For those who can't see it, offer
> a plain ASCII text version...
If you don't go too mad with the cross linking and table options HTML
can be converted back reasonably, the later tables etc stuff doesn't
convert well in and out of HTML though even with the conversion
programme.
However the ascii can be read if required.
Or converted by loading it into a WWW browser and copy paste to text
editor should do it, but could be messy.

> Advantages of RTF: More or less universal
but problems.
>
> Advantages of ASCII text: Viewable by everyone, relatively small file
> size
> Disadvantages: can't add-in pics, looks rather mundane
>
> Advantages of HTML: Should be supportable on all systems, allows for use
> of fonts, text formatting, use of pictures, etc
> Disadvantages: Cannot be integrated into a single file (complete with
> pics, fonts, etc), requires a web browser which may not be run-able on
> certain older systems
You can read the files as ascii, if required, and you could put the
pics in (as long as no vital info is in pictures those without the
capability just lose what they could never have had). I'm not saying
HTML printed as ascii looks great, anything but, but the information
can often be retrieved fairly easily.

Mark
Message no. 62
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:08:18 GMT
Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
: Spike said on 18:37/ 1 Dec 96...
: > The worst format anyone can use for distributable stuff is something for an
: > individual word-processor...
: Thank you :)

So Word for Windows and RTF are out of the discussion now ?

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 63
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:04:02 GMT
Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
: Georg Greve said on 12:55/ 1 Dec 96...
: > But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
: > else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
: > single look at the Plastic Warrior files.
: That's not what this was about... RTF can be read by any half-decent word
: processor, so that'd be a good choice for Fro's E-zine IMO. As for thw PW

RTF can only be read by half-decent word processors (Microsoft ones
basically) - that is the problem.

: files, yes, they're Word 6.0 format because that's what I switched to
: after getting fed up with WordPerfect 6.0 crashing on me every other
: minute... If you haven't got anything at all which will open them for you,
: try the Word Viewer, on Microsoft's web page somewhere.

Do you really think that Microsoft has a tool that enables Unix users
to read RTF files ? I don't think so.

Later,
Georg

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 64
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:58:41 GMT
The Jestyr (jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU) wrote:
: > : version - perhaps Georg or Brian would like to put their money where their
: > : mouths are and volunteer to do the PS version.
: > Interesting phrase you use after complaining about flaming...

: Sorry; was not intended as a flame. Guess I forgot the smiley. :)

Yeah - guess so, too.

: > P.S. I cannot speak for Brian, but I'd be willing to help in the
: > Postscript version...
: Oh goody. I'm in the RTF camp myself, but only cause I happen to hate PS.
: :)

Ah... that explains why you struggle so hard against it. Did it ever
occur that using Postscript would maybe be a little bit uncomfortable
for you, but using RTF would totally prevent us from reading the nice
version ?

For me it is not a question of liking or disliking - it is simply
being able to read it or not being able to read it.

Later,
Georg

P.S. By the way: we forgot about another format - ADOBE ACROBAT. That
is about 10 times shorter than PS (probably even shorter than RTF),
excellent viewers and printing interfaces exist for Windoze.

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 65
From: Peter Bailey <pbailey@***.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:27:44 -0800
Hi Richard,

> 1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

The above, plus plot hooks, short adventures or adventure ideas etc.

> 2. Could you be a regular contributer to the mag?

Irregular. I'm spreading myself a little thin as it is. But as I come
up with something that works on my group I'd probably be happy to
forward it on....

> 3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
> Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

Well, for anything other than plain ascii, I'm going to have to
transfer it to another computer anyway. Unfortunately I don't have a
lot of flexability in that regard. Please keep the size down though.
Floppies can only hold so much.

> 4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
> every 2 months?

I'd be happy to accept whatever you decide to put out. I'd point out
though that a monthy issue would soak up more of your time but
actually easier to do.

> 5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
> suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
> really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

How about "News Frame".

--

Internet: pbailey@***.com.au Fidonet: 3:640/281.3

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GAT d s:+ a- C+>++++ U? P? L E? @* N+++ o? K? w--- O? M? V?
PS+ PE++ Y+>++ PGP++ t+ 5- X+ R+ tv b+++ DI? D++ G e h----
r+++ y++++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
PGP fingerprint = 9C A2 D9 D8 CF 78 EC E7 3D 9F C7 C7 FD 11 85 4E
Member Team AMIGA
Message no. 66
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:27:21 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Georg Greve said on 12:55/ 1 Dec 96...
>
> > But this stupid "Vomit for Windumb" format cannot be read by anything
> > else which is exactly why I and some of my friends couldn't take a
> > single look at the Plastic Warrior files.
>
> That's not what this was about... RTF can be read by any half-decent word
> processor, so that'd be a good choice for Fro's E-zine IMO. As for thw PW
> files, yes, they're Word 6.0 format because that's what I switched to
> after getting fed up with WordPerfect 6.0 crashing on me every other
> minute... If you haven't got anything at all which will open them for you,
> try the Word Viewer, on Microsoft's web page somewhere.

Ok, enough's enough.


1) Gurth says, "RTF can be read by any good Word Processor. Postscript
sucks because I don't like it"
2) Georg says "PS can be read by any OS. RTF sucks because I don't like
it"

both say "I can't read <the other one>".


Well, I happen to agree with one of them (guess which one? I use
Linux!), but this repeating of the same statment (with the proper nouns
reversed) is

STUPID!!!!!!!!



Note the lack of smiley.



FWIW, I think LyX is a find 'Word Processor'. It doesn't read RTF. I
also think that since Fro has decided to use RTF, this whole disucssion is
mooot.


So what's it got to do with SR now guys, besides your chances to stamp
your feet and say "X, Y!" or "Y, X!" at each other?






Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 67
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:52:05 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Brian W Allison said on 10:35/ 1 Dec 96...
>
> > Gurth is making assumptions. I don't use PKZip. I use gzip - it's free,
> > it's as good as PKZip, and it comes with sourcecode. Better yet, it's
> > available on unix - PKZip *is* *not*.
>
> It is for me and for everybody else I know. Whether that's legal or not, I
> know nor care. My making assumptions about PKZip is because I assume that

So now you're advocating stealing. No, it's not free. It is copyrighted
and it is not freeware. It costs what... $35+ per copy?

But we can tell you don't mind that theft, nor advocating it. (Ref to
your "I now nor care" above)


[admitted assumptions snipped]

> Fro asked for opinions, I was giving him mine. That's all.

You presented them as *facts*. That's wildly misleading when someone
asks for opinions and they trust your judgement. Then later you admitted
to not knowing (or apparantly caring) about those who don't read RTF, and
in the same paragraph you state that you don't know much besides
DOS/Windoze.

Sounds like a TV Evangelist - what you've tried, once, is good enough
for the whole world. God forbid something out there works *better*...

> > > what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I
> >
> > A "point, button down, drag, button up, then hit Return" is a pain in
> > the ass? Man, you have a low pain threshhold.
>
> What about graphics in the text? To get them as well, I'm going to have to
> right-click on each one, select "Save image", and hit enter. If there are
> only a few graphics this isn't much of a bother, but with lots of them, it
> gets irritating real quick.

And I was accused of whining. *sigh*


> > Well here again you go - being egocentric.
>
> What?!! I'm making observations about how and why I *personally* don't
> like HTML all that much, and you're trying to make it seem as though I'm
> ramming it down everybody's throats! I want stuff to look good, because a
> well-produced file/book/magazine/whatever reads a lot easier than blocky
> ASCII text. If that's a definition of being egocentric, then hell, yeah
> I'm egocentric.


No, you made observations as if your view was the whole world's view -
it's the book definitino of "egocentric".

And later admitted that your view has limited experience.

*shakes head*

> > I won't tell you that you should learn how to print out HTML files so
> > that they don't look poorly - so please don't tell me I should switch over
> > to a broken operating environment or broken OS, and please don't tell me
> > that since you and a bunch of other people can read RTF that I should be
> > able to as well. It just isn't true.
>
> I'm not going to even comment on this...


Well you can't with any credibility.
You did tell us that we should learn to use RTF "because every decent
word processor can read it", and I was refraining from being the same.


As well, from someone who has done OS-level design and worked
on compilers in the past (my student status is an on-the-side thing *grin*
I have a real job) - Microsoft can't create an orignal product to save
thier butts.
OLE is Wang Technology.
NT was designed by a guy from DEC who wanted to make a PC-version of
guess what? Yep, you guessed it, VMS.
NT's networking code was written by AT&T people - the ones who wrote the
original AIX networking code.
DOS was originally built by another company.
Word was a rip-off of a WP that never made it off the gound.
Excel - ...

Etc, etc, etc.

> > "Pearl Harbor '42 Chernybol '86 Windows '95"
>
> I somehow don't think you're being completely objective, if you include
> Windows 95 in a list of what I think you believe to be disasters. You're
> really good at blowing things out of all proportions, aren't you?

I've ben doing this for longer than Windows has been a major player -
that is: creating software, learning Operating Systems, learning how to
play with hardware. I remember the first version of Winbloze.
And I knew long before the rest of the world that MS advocates a 2-level
API (one for their programmers, a lesser one for the outside world). Got
it from an upper-level MS programmer. :)


As for blowing things out of proportions:

"Every decent WP can read RTF"
"I can't read PS on my machine" (false, there are MS and Windows version
of postscript viewers/printers. Even better, they're free and don't have
to be stolen either)
"HTML is a pain in the ass"
(paraphrased) "I have to do too many button clicks and menu drags, and
that's too irritating"


You seem to have a few 'buttons' yourself.



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 68
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:00:28 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:

> > He made his decision - based on Gurth's advice "Because Gurth has done
> > this before" - about 24 hours ago.
>
> You can't deny that I have some experience in formatting stuff in a word
> processor; if Fro thinks that makes my comments advice to be listened to,

I certainly can deny that you are without - in my evaluation -
sufficient breadth and depth of experience using computers in general to
made recommendations to me as if they're fact.

In fact, I do so *now*.

And of course you'll not attempt to dissuade *anyone* from taking your
advice with weight. That'd be against your best interests.

> then I'm not going to stop him. In the end, it all comes down to what Fro
> thinks is the best way to deal with this, whether he bases his decision

Exactly. I first said that about.... 20 hours ago (as of this writing.).

You're behind SOTA.

> My position on this and most anything else: *any* comment made by
> *anyone* (including this one) is only advice to be considered; if anyone's
> trying to tell you otherwise, then *certainly* only take it as advice.

Ah. Then perhaps you might not want to make wide-sweeping statments as
you've been doing without data &/or experience to back it up.


Of course, this is all IMO and you can ignore it if you wish.

(that ought to make it easier to ignore...)


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 69
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:15:17 -0800
>
> Spike (u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK) wrote:
> : |: beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is
the
> : |: one true operating system.
> : |
> : |Apart from OS2 and Macintosh, it is. Microsoft stuff is by far too
> : |crappy to be called a real OS.
> : Bravo!
> : (You left out QDOS and SMSQ, but I'll let you off being as they're a bit
> : obscure.... They beat anything by Microsoft as well....)
>
> I apologize for that. I left out VMS as well - VMS is old and crappy
> and a pain in the ass to use, but it is a real OS, at least.
>
> Later,
> Georg

ummm...doesn't the fact that I use my OS make it real? Or are we going to go
into a debate on reality and perception and a bunch of philosophical drek about
what's "real" and what's not and things like that?

Do you want to tell all those millions of people that use MS products that their
OS actually doesn't exist or should I? 'Caus I think that they'd all be real
interested in knowing if Bill is actually selling them anything or
not...actually it's a brilliant business scheme if you think about it... get
people to shell out $100 bucks (ok, may be like $80, or $50 if you upgrade..)
for an imaginary product.

Either way, this has nothing to do with SR, the SR E-mag or the fact that Fro
already posted a descision....so...

<big huge flashing letters>

END THIS THREAD!!!

</big huge flashing letters>

~Tim (any offence given is merely a matter of perception, and should be duly
ignored, dodged, parried (counter-attacks are not allowed) or resisted with
hardening and an suitable high Bod rating.)
Message no. 70
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:03:52 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Spike wrote:

> Look!
> Once and for all, Fro can NOT handle Postscript, so the argument is null and
> void, and a hell of a lot of other people can't handle RTF, so that should
> be null and void as well...
>
> That leaves ASCII or HTML and I for one vote for ASCII....


Except... it isn't a vote.


As well, Fro made his decision yesterday (about 36 hours ago).


Sorry, you and I and the others who don't do RTF - lose. It's looking
like it'll be PKzip'd files.

*hahahahahaHAHAHHAAHAH*

I CAN'T READ PKZIP EITHER!!!!!!

No, I'm not becoming a software pirate.

Guess it's a quick way to segment his 'readership', neh?



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 71
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:44:46 -0800
> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Spike wrote:
>
> > Look!
> > Once and for all, Fro can NOT handle Postscript, so the argument is null and
> > void, and a hell of a lot of other people can't handle RTF, so that should
> > be null and void as well...
> >
> > That leaves ASCII or HTML and I for one vote for ASCII....
>
>
> Except... it isn't a vote.
>
>
> As well, Fro made his decision yesterday (about 36 hours ago).
>
>
> Sorry, you and I and the others who don't do RTF - lose. It's looking
> like it'll be PKzip'd files.
>
> *hahahahahaHAHAHHAAHAH*
>
> I CAN'T READ PKZIP EITHER!!!!!!
>
> No, I'm not becoming a software pirate.

Um, if your refering to PKZIP, the shareware version is completely free, and you
don't need to register it unless you want some extra features or are planning on
using it for anything other than personal use. At least thats what the little
README.TXT file that comes with all copies of it says.

> Guess it's a quick way to segment his 'readership', neh?
>
> Brian W. Allison
>

~Tim
Message no. 72
From: Timothy P Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:47:21 -0800
oh yeah...BTW


STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!
STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!! STOP THIS FRAGGING THREAD!!

~Tim (sick of seeing "RE: New SR E-mag")
Message no. 73
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:20:27 -0800
Here's my two cents.

>1. What would you like to see in the mag? (spells, short stories, gear, etc)

All of the above. And if we can, now that we have some FASA folks about, maybe a regular
article by them, or interview of them, Q&A type stuff.

>2. Could you be a regular contributor to the mag?

Well, I will do my best to try. Depends on what you mean by regular ... :)

>3. What format do you want it in? From the people I've already talked to,
>Rich Text format and plain ascii text are preferred.

I agree.

>4. Would you like a smaller issue every month or a slightly larger issue
>every 2 months?

Go bi-monthly. Every month would be hard to compile.

>5. And the final question...What should we name it? I've kind of discarded
>suggestions that included Shadow or Shadowrun in the name. The only one I
>really have considered so far is 'The Immortal Elf'.

Someone suggested Street Talk. I second that.


=====================|===========================================
DREKHEAD | --- www.aol.users.com\drekhead\home.html ---
drekhead@***.net | "Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
=====================|===========================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
version 3.1
GB d-(+) s: a C++(+++)>++++$ U--- P L+ E? W++>$ N o? K-? w+()>--- O++>$ m--
V? PS+ PE++ Y PGP- t++>$ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI++(+) D++ G e>++ h--- r+++ y+++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----


This Message Was Sent With An UNREGISTERED Version Of PMMail.
Please Encourage Its Author To Register Their Copy Of PMMail.
For More Information About PMMail And SouthSide Software's Other
Products, Contact http://www.southsoft.com.
Message no. 74
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:07:27 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Timothy P Cooper wrote:

> Um, if your refering to PKZIP, the shareware version is completely free, and you
> don't need to register it unless you want some extra features or are planning on
> using it for anything other than personal use. At least thats what the little
> README.TXT file that comes with all copies of it says.

Oh... cool. Last time I looked it said that if you used it much you needed
to 'register' it.


But then, it's been quite a while since I ran Dos on my machine.

Is there a Linux version of PkZip?

*grumbles about OS-specific tools*



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 75
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:23:42 +0000
|
|Gurth (gurth@******.NL) wrote:
|: Spike said on 18:37/ 1 Dec 96...
|: > The worst format anyone can use for distributable stuff is something for an
|: > individual word-processor...
|: Thank you :)
|
|So Word for Windows and RTF are out of the discussion now ?

As far as I'm concerned, the entire discussion is at an end...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 76
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:25:18 +0000
|P.S. By the way: we forgot about another format - ADOBE ACROBAT. That
|is about 10 times shorter than PS (probably even shorter than RTF),
|excellent viewers and printing interfaces exist for Windoze.

But not a lot else...

I've never heard of it for a start...

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 77
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:41:04 +0000
|> > Gurth is making assumptions. I don't use PKZip. I use gzip - it's free,
|> > it's as good as PKZip, and it comes with sourcecode. Better yet, it's
|> > available on unix - PKZip *is* *not*.
|>
|> It is for me and for everybody else I know. Whether that's legal or not, I
|> know nor care. My making assumptions about PKZip is because I assume that
|
| So now you're advocating stealing. No, it's not free. It is copyrighted
|and it is not freeware. It costs what... $35+ per copy?
|
| But we can tell you don't mind that theft, nor advocating it. (Ref to
|your "I now nor care" above)

PKzip might not be free-ware, but ZIP and UNZIP are in the public domain and
are capable of unzipping PKzipped files...

(I think they're part of the GNU project, and as they were written in 'C'
they've been ported to MS and most other systems, including the QL (again).

<Rest of rant snippet... Don't you think this has gone on long enough guys?>
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 78
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:51:28 +0700
Fro, I think what you're doing (publishing the SR-net-zine) is a great
idea. I'd even like to submit something someday (just as soon as I finish
reading all the rules again, the NAGEE's, write my own campaign, and work
on the two NERPs project I volunteered for :). And whether you do it in
ASCII, HTML, RTF, Adobe, PS, or Mangawa, I'll figure out a way to read it.

-Dreamcatcher

"Ah, to sleep, perchance to dream."

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\dbuehrer@carl.org/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
http://www.geocities.org/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 79
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:51:28 +0700
Brian W Allison wrote about "Re: New SR E-mag":

> but this repeating of the same statment (with the proper nouns
> reversed) is
>
> STUPID!!!!!!!!

Agreed (no offense intended to any of the participating parties, including
myself :) But, if you've come to this conclusion, why did you continue to
post on the subject?... IMHO one should either put out the fire with the
mother of all flames, or just walk away and let the fire die out. Or, pick
up a burning log and chase the guy that started the fire, not kick the fire
at your foe and into the huddled masses who have gathered for warmth.

> Note the lack of smiley.

I have taken note, and still I walk into the valley of death (I'm just
stupid that way, and after choosing to put in my two cents... how could it
possibly get worse). I'm not making fun of you Brian, just gathering my
wits.

> So what's it got to do with SR now guys, besides your chances to stamp
> your feet and say "X, Y!" or "Y, X!" at each other?

This time last year a Grounding debate started up. And I don't know if it
has to do with the stress of the holidays, the lack of sunlight, or what,
but it escalated mightily (I got singed myself, innocent child that I
was). Maybe it's just coincidence, but things are heating up around here
again.

Please guys, this is running round and round and round and... well, you
get the point. Take it to private mail or... I'll start up the Grounding
debate with Georg ;)

-Dreamcatcher

"Ah, to sleep, perchance to dream."

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\dbuehrer@carl.org/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
http://www.geocities.org/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 80
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:51:28 +0700
Georg Greve wrote about "Re: New SR E-mag":

Georg Greve wrote:

"The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - bagpipers play the tunes of war
- death or glory I will find rebellion on my mind"

That is so cool. I'm listening to RiverDance in the background as I write
this and it fits perfectly. I know, not SR related, but it's so cool :)

-Dreamcatcher

"Ah, to sleep, perchance to dream."

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\dbuehrer@carl.org/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
http://www.geocities.org/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 81
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:50:04 +0000
|Is there a Linux version of PkZip?

Yes....
I don't know where, so you'll probably have to do a web search.
I think you'll find gzip as well. (GNUzip)....

|*grumbles about OS-specific tools*

Most tools that use input/output are OS specific.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:- | "THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!! |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 82
From: The Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:53:44 +1100
> ASCII, HTML, RTF, Adobe, PS, or Mangawa, I'll figure out a way to read it.

Mangara? What the heck? (I didn't know they had a native Swahili OS...)

:)

Lady Jestyr

--------------------------------------------------
A titanic intellect... in a world full of icebergs
--------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes jestyr@*******.dialix.oz.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503
--------------------------------------------------
Message no. 83
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:55:56 -0500
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Spike wrote:

[Fatherly words snipped]

> <Rest of rant snippet... Don't you think this has gone on long enough guys?>

I was thinking of putting in a warm coal whenver someone tossed out an
unhelpful label.



But I reserve the right to change my mind. I like the plaid one.





Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 84
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:11:08 PST
> *hahahahahaHAHAHHAAHAH*
>
> I CAN'T READ PKZIP EITHER!!!!!!
>
> No, I'm not becoming a software pirate.

Are you people SURE PKZip is not freeware? I have several copies of it
on game CD's.
Message no. 85
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:28:11 -0500
At 09:48 AM 12/2/96 GMT, Georg Greve wrote:
>Bull (chaos@*****.COM) wrote:
>
>: I honostly don't think it has ANYTHING to do with the system you are on.
>: Almost everything out there is in someway compatible with everything else,
>: even if it takes a few conversion programs, viewers, and whatever else to
do it.
>
>That is true for a lot of things, but NOT for RTF or Microsuck Word formats.
>
This is really getting us no where, isn't it. You seem really hung up on
all of this...

>: simple problem of space. I have no room on my compy for any new programs.
>
>If you don't have a few hundred K left for working space, you should
>maybe think about another Harddisk, huh ?
>
<sigh>

If I could afford a new Hard Drive, I would have a new Hard drive... I'm
working with a grand total of 47... Count them... 47 Megs of Hard Drive
space, of which 45 are used, and the other two get filled everytime I
downoad my Mail.

So, Unless you'ld care to buy me one...

Never mind...

I'll be nice...

Bull-the-done-banging-his-head-on-a-brick-wall-over-this=dumb-argument-ork-d
ecker
Message no. 86
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:00:17 -0500
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Dreamcatcher wrote:

> Brian W Allison wrote about "Re: New SR E-mag":
>
> > but this repeating of the same statment (with the proper nouns
> > reversed) is
> >
> > STUPID!!!!!!!!
>
> Agreed (no offense intended to any of the participating parties, including
> myself :) But, if you've come to this conclusion, why did you continue to
> post on the subject?... IMHO one should either put out the fire with the
> mother of all flames, or just walk away and let the fire die out. Or, pick
> up a burning log and chase the guy that started the fire, not kick the fire
> at your foe and into the huddled masses who have gathered for warmth.



Perhaps you should re-read what I said.


I said that 'repeating the same statment with the proper nouns reversed
is stupid'. Not 'trying to show someone that their logic is exactly what
they're saying is invalid - is stupid'.


There were people doing the first - I was not one of them.

But I was gleefully doing the second. Note the lack of ranting when
someone actually gives me new (and accurate) data.

Perhaps it's lost in all of my other 'rantings'.

> possibly get worse). I'm not making fun of you Brian, just gathering my
> wits.

Cool, you're in a select few. *hehehehehe*


> get the point. Take it to private mail or... I'll start up the Grounding
> debate with Georg ;)



That's ok... *evil grin*. We all know you can't ground through a
Quickening.


*sits back and watches*



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 87
From: Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 04:14:12 -0700
At 18:03 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote:
> Sorry, you and I and the others who don't do RTF - lose. It's looking
>like it'll be PKzip'd files.
>
> *hahahahahaHAHAHHAAHAH*
>
> I CAN'T READ PKZIP EITHER!!!!!!
>
> No, I'm not becoming a software pirate.
>
> Guess it's a quick way to segment his 'readership', neh?

First of all, Pkzip is shareware, and there is a unix version, which I
believe is just 'unzip'. Its available on ftp.cdrom.com, as is damn near
everything. Making GZipped versions of the files is hardly an impossible
mission for me either, so if you want/need them GZipped, I can do so. Any
other requests? RAR? ARJ? ICE? LHA? TAR?

Fro
Message no. 88
From: Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 04:18:15 -0700
At 16:51 12/2/96 +0700, you wrote:
>Fro, I think what you're doing (publishing the SR-net-zine) is a great
>idea. I'd even like to submit something someday (just as soon as I finish
>reading all the rules again, the NAGEE's, write my own campaign, and work
>on the two NERPs project I volunteered for :). And whether you do it in
>ASCII, HTML, RTF, Adobe, PS, or Mangawa, I'll figure out a way to read it.
>
>-Dreamcatcher

Unconditional support :) I like that. Thank you!

Fro-the-wondering-if-this-thread-is-gonna-die-assistant-fearless-leader
Message no. 89
From: Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 00:33:37 GMT
Brian W Allison (ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU) wrote:
: Is there a Linux version of PkZip?

Actually: There is. I use Linux myself and I have "zip" and "unzip"
commands available (I use the Slackware distribution and always
thought it was standard on all Linux distributions). It can read and
create usual ZIP as well as PKZip (-k commandline switch)... so
zipping is no real problem.

: *grumbles about OS-specific tools*

OS specific TOOLS are not the problem... *taking cover*

Later,
Georg

P.S. Yes, I tried to send my reply to Brian directly but for some
reason it got bounced.

--
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The Clan's are marching 'gainst the law - |
| bagpipers play the tunes of war - death or glory I will find - |
| rebellion on my mind" |
| Grave Digger - "Rebellion" |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Georg Greve greve@*******.Hanse.DE |
| Tel.: +49-40-23809080 greve@*******.uni-hamburg.de |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 90
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:27:17 -0500
On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Georg Greve wrote:

> P.S. Yes, I tried to send my reply to Brian directly but for some
> reason it got bounced.

Sorry man, my Detection Factor was too high? I have about a very simple
Redirect in effect whenever I'm online.

*hehehehe*


Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 91
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:09:21 -0800
On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:22:12 -0500, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

>Eh? OS2 has more or less been declared Anathema by Mickeysoft (they don't
>even PRODUCE a WP for OS2.) Mac certainly isn't a MS toady either.

Um...OS/2 is made by IBM. And no, Microsoft does not produce a Word
processor for OS/2, for which I am thankful. Describe makes an
excellent WP for OS/2, and Lotus Word Pro 96 is now available. (In
fact, you can still download the pre-release for free.) Both are
excellent packages, and both read RTF, as well as other formats.

>RTF is a universal format. Just as much as postscript is. And I am really
>beginning to hate the attitude of *NIX mavens who claim that theirs is the
>one true operating system.

Let's not turn the Shadowrun list into an OS flame war. Please, I beg
you, stop this thread now!!


=====================|===========================================
DREKHEAD | --- www.aol.users.com\drekhead\home.html ---
drekhead@***.net | "Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
=====================|===========================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
version 3.1
GB d-(+) s: a C++(+++)>++++$ U--- P L+ E? W++>$ N o? K-? w+()>--- O++>$ m--
V? PS+ PE++ Y PGP- t++>$ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI++(+) D++ G e>++ h--- r+++ y+++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 92
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:09:30 -0800
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:15:17 -0800, Timothy P Cooper wrote:

>Do you want to tell all those millions of people that use MS products that their
>OS actually doesn't exist or should I? 'Caus I think that they'd all be real
>interested in knowing if Bill is actually selling them anything or
>not...actually it's a brilliant business scheme if you think about it... get
>people to shell out $100 bucks (ok, may be like $80, or $50 if you upgrade..)
>for an imaginary product.

<gritting teeth>

I have been desperately attempting to stay out of this OS debate, but
I had to comment on this one. Most people that use MS products didn't
buy them. They were included as preloads on the systems they bought,
and are used because of that. If Microsoft had to compete on a level
playing field, the results would be much different. Remember, the
best technology is not always the most popular. Marketing 101.

>Either way, this has nothing to do with SR, the SR E-mag or the fact that Fro
>already posted a descision....so...
>
><big huge flashing letters>
>
> END THIS THREAD!!!
>
></big huge flashing letters>

I agree, and 'nuff said. Goodnight.


=====================|===========================================
DREKHEAD | --- www.aol.users.com\drekhead\home.html ---
drekhead@***.net | "Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
=====================|===========================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
version 3.1
GB d-(+) s: a C++(+++)>++++$ U--- P L+ E? W++>$ N o? K-? w+()>--- O++>$ m--
V? PS+ PE++ Y PGP- t++>$ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI++(+) D++ G e>++ h--- r+++ y+++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 93
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 23:09:39 -0800
On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:44:46 -0800, Timothy P Cooper wrote:

>Um, if your refering to PKZIP, the shareware version is completely free, and you
>don't need to register it unless you want some extra features or are planning on
>using it for anything other than personal use. At least thats what the little
>README.TXT file that comes with all copies of it says.

<SOAPBOX MODE: ON>
As a partner in a shareware product venture, I must take umbrage to
this attitude. Shareware is not free. If you use it, you are supposed
to pay for it. Those programs don't write themselves. If you like
something enough to use it regularly, then please register it. Show
the author you appreciate the hard work.
<SOAPBOX MODE:OFF>


=====================|===========================================
DREKHEAD | --- www.aol.users.com\drekhead\home.html ---
drekhead@***.net | "Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com | is just starting his and the target could be you."
=====================|===========================================
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
version 3.1
GB d-(+) s: a C++(+++)>++++$ U--- P L+ E? W++>$ N o? K-? w+()>--- O++>$ m--
V? PS+ PE++ Y PGP- t++>$ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b++ DI++(+) D++ G e>++ h--- r+++ y+++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 94
From: Dreamcatcher <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:23:55 +0700
The Jestyr wrote about "Re: New SR E-mag":

> > ASCII, HTML, RTF, Adobe, PS, or Mangawa, I'll figure out a way to read it.
>
> Mangara? What the heck? (I didn't know they had a native Swahili OS...)
>
> :)

Oh good. Someone caught that :)

-Dreamcatcher

"Ah, to sleep, perchance to dream."

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\dbuehrer@carl.org/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
http://www.geocities.org/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 95
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:20:52 EST
On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:02:32 GMT Georg Greve <greve@*******.HANSE.DE>
writes:
<snip Gurth (sorry:)>
>This would suck big time. RTF isn't smaller than Postscript and
>Postscript is a machine INDEPENDED format... there are viewers for
>EVERY OS.

Yes, but it still requires that everyone has and can make easy use of
those viewers. I, for one, never could get Ghostscript to work:(

<snip on HTML>
>Huh ???? Just take a web browser to take a look at it and printing it
>is usually no problem at all. HTML is the only format besides
>Postscript and ASCII that is readable by ALL people.
Yeah, but it isn't as nifty or snazzy as PS or RTF, and it still requires
a viewer, like any other format.

John Pederson "God is dead"
lobo1@****.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to
1900)
I don't know where my home page is! "Nietzsche is dead"
Only dead fish swim with the stream -God (everlasting to everlasting)
Message no. 96
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:20:52 EST
On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:56:32 +0100 Gurth <gurth@******.NL> writes:
>John E Pederson said on 15:14/30 Nov 96...
>
>> As I see it, the easiest way is, of course, going to be offering a
>> plain-text version. Fro said that he did not currently have a way of
>> using PostScript, so I'd rule that out. A few list members have voiced
>> that they do not currently have access to a way of viewing RTF, PS, or
>> both. I'd still leave it up to Fro (it is his project, after all:),
but I
>> can't see that using one single format will be the best approach. I'd
>> say, offer it in ASCII text and one other, more flexible format-either
>> RTF or PS, HTML would be an option if it was to be posted on the web.
>
>IMHO, it would be best for Fro to bring out both an RTF version and an
>ASCII one, with the same contents; any pictures included in the RTF
>file
>could be zipped up with the ASCII one (before anyone says it, I know
>most
>of the common graphic formats can't really be compressed because they
>already are, but this would just be to keep it all together).

Well, actually that's the option I like best myself, but it seemed like
HTML might be good compromise between the formatting advantages of RTF
(which I would prefer) and the universality of ASCII. Still, it's only an
idea:)

>I don't really like HTML myself. Sure, it looks pretty good if you know
>what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and I
>don't like having to start up my computer every time I want to read the
>magazine (or whatever) -- and printing an HTML file also doesn't look
all
>that good in my experience.

Granted. HTML isn't nearly as good a format as RTF, but I thought it
might be a good compromise:)

John Pederson "God is dead"
lobo1@****.com -Friedrich Nietzsche (1844 to
1900)
I don't know where my home page is! "Nietzsche is dead"
Only dead fish swim with the stream -God (everlasting to everlasting)
Message no. 97
From: BulletShower <nmatausc@****.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:28:00 +1000
Hio Fro!

In whatever format you'll bring your emag to us, I'll find a way to
decypher it. I have big RESPECT for someone who takes the burden of
writing an emag. All the best, and: if you need somebody who's now completely into
diceless
gaming, let me know.

:)
BulletShower
______________________________________________________________________
"Gott wuerfelt nicht" (A. Einstein)
For More information on diceless roleplaying and own Shadowrun stuff,
jack into http://www.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~nmatausc
Message no. 98
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:56:47 GMT
Georg Greve writes
>
> Nope. Several people just never were able to even have a look at it
> because it is in this crappy Windoze format.
I suspect Gurth used Word for Windows as thats what he's got. It
looks good and a lot of folks can read it, though not all. Based on
previos comments from people writing stuff that size they find it
dificult to find the time to do multiple versions. However its not
the best format for general distirbution as not even Wordperfect
reads word 6 files.

> The same would be
> happening to the new magazine if it would be published in that format
> or RTF.
>
RTF's a lot better, but again some UNIX and similar systems probably
cannot read it.

> The only formats that ensure everyone is (at least theoretically) able
> to read it are ASCII
HTML is also always readable though if you don't have a browser it
might be very messy. It is just code marked up Ascii after all.

> and Postscript because these are the only formats
> available for all systems. You could now say you don't have it, but
> when you are able to access the net or know anyone who is, this should
> be no problem at all - just pull down the proper programs for you
> machine.
>
Quite a lot of folks won't want the bother. Also you need a minimum
printer quality, unless you have a postscript printer (and finding
out without sending the printer a postscript file could be tricky
unless you bought the thing, unless you like pestering the sys admin)
you need a view capable of printing it to a non postscript printer,
and thats almost bound to mean decent laser, inkjets etc should cope
i assume.
And the right viewer being out there, you finding it, getting a fast
enough link to download it and then actually getting it to work (note
without Web for a www search engine finding could be effectively
impossible) I have heard a lot of compliants from folks using
postscript printing programs which plain won't work. eg Word
supposedly handles it but i've yet to see it done.

If someone can do RTF to postscript though the two between them
should solve the problem as most non RTF capable folks will probably
be Linus/Unix etc users for whom postscript works well, but i think
we have a few folks even that does not cover.

Mark
Message no. 99
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:41:33 +0100
Georg Greve said on 13:04/ 2 Dec 96...

> : That's not what this was about... RTF can be read by any half-decent word
> : processor, so that'd be a good choice for Fro's E-zine IMO. As for thw PW
>
> RTF can only be read by half-decent word processors (Microsoft ones
> basically) - that is the problem.

This is what I mean by MS bashing... I agree that their OS's could be
improved, but I do think Microsoft's applications are on the whole better
than many others I've worked with.

> Do you really think that Microsoft has a tool that enables Unix users
> to read RTF files ? I don't think so.

Bye...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 100
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:41:33 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 17:27/ 2 Dec 96...

> 1) Gurth says, "RTF can be read by any good Word Processor. Postscript
> sucks because I don't like it"
> 2) Georg says "PS can be read by any OS. RTF sucks because I don't like
> it"

Don't worry, I've given up and I'll be happy to let Georg think he's won
the argument -- no matter what I say, it doesn't seem to get through to
certain people. (For the record, I didn't say I don't like PS, I said I
don't like HTML for a file that is to be printed out.)

As Brian said, this is stupid and has gone on for long enough.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Originally genuine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 101
From: Martin Lockert <101374.2470@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:36:01 EST
Wow, I just downloaded my mail and expected around 100 messages regarding
Shadowrun, but all I got was some junk on formatting text and the quality of
Microsoft. What a surprise!

Maybe Fro can send the text of the zine to Georg or some other high and mighty
hardcore-Linux-using computer wizard as an e-mail, who then converts it into PS
or ASCII or whatever.


Martin

Oh, BTW, I wrote this on MS Exchange and sent it to the list over my Compu$erve
account (oh my, what an amateur!) because it is the easiest way for me to get
the SR-mail, and SR-mail is what I want to get.

To out myself ever more: Guess what, I've used the online-registry to register
my copy of Windows 95! Huahaha.
Message no. 102
From: James Ojaste <jojaste@*****.CSCLUB.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:44:42 -0500
Brian W Allison said:
> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Gurth wrote:
> > Brian W Allison said on 10:35/ 1 Dec 96...
> > > Gurth is making assumptions. I don't use PKZip. I use gzip - it's free,
> > > it's as good as PKZip, and it comes with sourcecode. Better yet, it's
> > > available on unix - PKZip *is* *not*.

Actually, it doesn't matter, since zip and unzip *are* available on unix,
and are free (they deal with .zip files perfectly, except for the
disk-spanning). gzip isn't as good as pkzip in terms of directory
management - it only handles single files. If I'm dealing with a single
file under unix, I'll gzip it. If I want to package up a whole directory,
I'll zip it.

[talking about HTML, I presume]
> > > > what you're doing with it, but it's a pain in the ass to download, and
I
> > >
> > > A "point, button down, drag, button up, then hit Return" is a
pain in
> > > the ass? Man, you have a low pain threshhold.
> >
> > What about graphics in the text? To get them as well, I'm going to have to
> > right-click on each one, select "Save image", and hit enter. If there
are
> > only a few graphics this isn't much of a bother, but with lots of them, it
> > gets irritating real quick.

Unless a complete hierarchy is zipped up for downloading.

> As for blowing things out of proportions:
>
> "Every decent WP can read RTF"

Well, to be fair, RTF is probably the most widely-accepted format that
can be loaded by word processors.

> "I can't read PS on my machine" (false, there are MS and Windows version
> of postscript viewers/printers. Even better, they're free and don't have
> to be stolen either)

And they all suck. This, from experience. I have not found one PS viewer
on *any* platform worth the disk space. I've even had problems printing
a few PS documents on PS printers, though that only results in illegibility.

> "HTML is a pain in the ass"
> (paraphrased) "I have to do too many button clicks and menu drags, and
> that's too irritating"

HTML would be good - the only real problem is that it would be nice to
keep the entire document in one file (and not just for distribution).
I wish you could specify URLs in the format "file:///doc.zip/file1.html";.

Just to throw a bit of fuel on the fire... :)

James

--
As paranoia fills his mind, the champion of the night runs through
the shadows cast by the amber streetlights above and he wonders,
"Maybe I should get a life?"
jojaste@******.uwaterloo.ca, http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/u/jojaste
Message no. 103
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:28:31 +1100
> Sorry, you and I and the others who don't do RTF - lose. It's looking
>like it'll be PKzip'd files.
>
> *hahahahahaHAHAHHAAHAH*
>
> I CAN'T READ PKZIP EITHER!!!!!!
>
> No, I'm not becoming a software pirate.

Sheesh... Pkzip is readable by a variety of uncompression packages on all
platforms, including Unix. RTF has readers available for all platforms,
including Unix. Before you doubt me, I used them for 4 years at uni.
Okay, so they aren't standard software, and they might not be installed
on your system. Well, any true Unix head would go and download the source
(you should find them the RTF one in the X11 archives, somewhere... the
unzip program, if I remember right, I found whilst browsing the
comp.source archives).

> Guess it's a quick way to segment his 'readership', neh?

If you want to read it, you'll get the software to do so. It's not Fro's
responsibility to obtain the necessary software, and drive space, to make
it nice and pretty for you... Oh, and Postscript WILL make the files
massive. Postscript is incredibly space-intensive for any sort of
graphical data that can't be described nicely in an algorithim.

>Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
>Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>

Hacker, uh?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 104
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:28:22 +1100
>
>Is there a Linux version of PkZip?
>

Yes... well, there's source for a unix one. You'll have to compile it for
your machine.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 105
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: New SR E-mag
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 18:28:01 +1100
>|P.S. By the way: we forgot about another format - ADOBE ACROBAT. That
>|is about 10 times shorter than PS (probably even shorter than RTF),
>|excellent viewers and printing interfaces exist for Windoze.
>
>But not a lot else...
>
>I've never heard of it for a start...

*shrug* Acrobat readers are available for Mac, and some unix ports
(Solaris, for sure... maybe there's an X11 variation). It's a free
program from Adobe, so go check http://www.adobe.com/

I'd dispute the excellent printing interface... it won't let me print
just even/odd pages... *sigh*


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about New SR E-mag, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!