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Message no. 1
From: "Dark Thought Publications." <JEK5313@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: New totem.
Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 09:33:26 CET
Drum roll, please. . . . .



Dove:

Characteristics: Dove is thin and austere. She is flighty; quick in
motion and in thought. She seems naive and inexperienced, often jumping to
conclusions and believing in people's better natures. She avoids combat
actively, and is primarily a healing totem. She is fastidious in dress,
though often wearing simple and functional clothing. The Dove totem is the
totem of those who practice the healing traditions of the ancient Christian
sects, and in fact is one of very few totems to be openly espoused by the
Catholic Church.
Dove is a healer. It is her prime motivation and reason for being.
She will refuse healing to none, oftentimes even healing her enemies.

Environment: Urban
Advantages: +2 dice Healing, Semi-empathy(see below); +2 dice for
conjuring any specific Spirit of Man (shaman's choice).
Disadvantage: -1 die for casting any non-stun spell. A Dove shaman cannot
refuse healing to *anyone* who requests it. A Dove shaman will not tolerate
evil or ignoble actions. Also, see below.


Notes:
Dove shamans posess, almost as a side effect of their "choice" of totem, an
heightened awareness of others' feelings. This does not allow them to read
minds or to broadcast/receive others' emotions in any real sense, but instead
allows the Dove shaman an infallable sense of when someone is in pain, even
being capable of use as a locator. This form of empathy allows the Dove shaman
to avoid physically damaging someone, as to do so is almost as painful to the
Dove shaman as it is to the victim. The Dove shaman must use Willpower to
resist a deadly stun with a Target Number of 4 if she witnesses a death due to
violence.



Real World Notes:

Yes, I know that those of you out there who fancy yourselves combat mages are
saying to yourselves: "Pansy, wimp, hoser, etc." The Dove totem is an
unique roleplaying challenge designed to fit the needs of one of the members of
my group. I feel as if this is a good outcome, not as nasty as those from
White Wolf, and not entirely benign either. (You should see her whip out a
damaging manipulation against insect spirits.) Add her to a vampire in the
party, and watch the fireworks and preset misconceptions fly. Dump in one
pinch of militant vampyr-hunting Jesuits, a gram of insect spirits, three cups
of general mayhem, and still until smooth. Chill and serve.
(Oh! Did I mention that it's raining?)

-Ethan Court

(So tell me, guys; did I forget anything?)

(Since we've yet to handle the copyright issue to everyone's satisfaction, let
me spell this one out: use at will, but if you ever make any moeny off this
poor old idea [doubtful] please just put something to the tune of "thanks to
the gang at hearn" or the like.)
Message no. 2
From: Will <AUWRS@*******.BITNET>
Subject: New Totem
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 07:42:44 -0700
Hey there, I was wondering if someone could write up a Bull totem. I
am going to be needing it soon and do not have a clue as to how to come
up with such a thing. You may use it freely, and I hope you might want
to send it in to the Tome list.
If one of you could do this I would greatly appretiate it.


Thanks for your time and effort,

Will Szabo at AUWRS@*******.bitnet
Message no. 3
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: New Totem
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:55:55 -0400
Horse Shaman

Characteristics: Horse is fast, has incredible stamina, but is very
skittish. Horse is loyal to the group up to a point and once that point is
past its every creature for him/herself. At the first sign of trouble horse
will attempt to flee, but when cornered BEWARE, horse is fierce and very
dangerous. The Horse shaman is your typical big sissy. He/she starts at
every noise, shies away from anything new or unfamiliar, and is a perpetually
light sleeper. Horse has a preternatural ability to smell trouble coming.
Horse is a nature totem despite its long history of domestication with
humans.

Favored Environment: Prairie and Mountains

Advantage: +1 dice for conjuring Prairie or Mountain Spirits, +1 dice for
detection spells, +2 dice for combat spells

Disadvantages: A Horse shaman must make a willpower check with the target
number equal to the threat rating of the situation that he/she confronts. If
the Horse shaman fails the willpower check then he/she will attempt to run
away as fast as possible. If on the other hand the Horse shaman makes the
willpower check or is cornered with nowhere to run then he/she is a deadly
fighter.

Duke
Message no. 4
From: Oohniwadha <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 17:08:10 +0930
>
> Horse Shaman
>

Uh... hate to tell you this, but if you look in the Tir na nOg sourcebook, you'll see
that it already has a horse totem. Reality shatters pal.

--

Ooniwadha Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 5
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:28:12 +01.0
On 6 Aug 95 at 11:55, Duke Diener wrote:

> Horse Shaman

Sorry, but this one is already listed in Tir na n'Og (p. 148).

Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Geek Code v3.0:
GLS d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ K? w+ O- M- V? PS+
PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5? X++ R+(++) tv b+++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r y+
Message no. 6
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 16:07:57 -0400
In a message dated 95-08-07 03:40:19 EDT, you write:

>>
>> Horse Shaman
>>
>
>Uh... hate to tell you this, but if you look in the Tir na nOg sourcebook,
>you'll see
>that it already has a horse totem. Reality shatters pal.

Don't have that source book....how does it compare to what I wrote?

Duke
Message no. 7
From: Oohniwadha <habelmon@********.CS.ADELAIDE.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 11:33:41 +0930
> Don't have that source book....how does it compare to what I wrote?
>
> Duke
>


Well, its different enough to make a difference. I don';t have it on me so
I can't tell you the differences. Hmmm.

--

Ooniwadha Odds & Ends
habelmon@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
stimpy@****.student.adelaide.edu.au
Message no. 8
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 20:25:36 -0400
habelmon wrote:
>> Don't have that source book....how does it compare to what I wrote?
>> Duke
> Well, its different enough to make a difference. I don';t have it on
>me so I can't tell you the differences. Hmmm.

Well my stats could really be transposed to a great many types of herd
animals. I could easily see it as "Deer Shaman" or maybe even
"Moose", but I
am mostly interested in what FASA thought Horse should be.

Duke
Message no. 9
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:47:56 -0500
I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
Anyone interested in seeing the stats?

Blair
Message no. 10
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:02:49 -0600
>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>
>Blair
>
>
>
Anteater totem?
Message no. 11
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:34:45 -0500
At 17:02 3/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>>
>>Blair
>>
>>
>>
>Anteater totem?
>
>
At first I though that idea was a shot, But actually it sounds like a good
idea. The only problem with it is who would want to follow it? "I am Long
Tongue. I follow Anteater!" Sounds a bit silly doesn't it? :)

BLAIR
Message no. 12
From: ftmck@**.netcom.com (Frank McKinney )
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:45:18 -0800
You wrote:

>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading
>Bug City
>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?

>Blair

I'm truly sorry, but hahahahahahahaha. :) ROTFLMAO

INCEST spirits! Those pesky things never seem to leave home.

Frank
Message no. 13
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:56:06 PST
>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?


Yes, I am, but...

Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?

--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only Weretiger PhysAd

no website


When the going gets tough,
the tough get going.
the smart find a better way.
the determined just keep going.
<insert your fdavorite variation here>
Message no. 14
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:39:46 -0500
At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
>>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>
>
>Yes, I am, but...
>
>Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
>
>--
>Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)

Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
wolf spider is.
Message no. 15
From: "'Spaceman' WD Lee" <seventh@*.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:19:53 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:

> At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
> >Yes, I am, but...
> >
> >Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
>
> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
> and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
> wolf spider is.

Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard

The Spaceman |Remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die
spaced@*.washington.edu |in vain, he died in Washington, D.C.
seventh@*.washington.edu | -Firesign Theatre
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5+ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G++ e h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ D1
Message no. 16
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:29:16 -0500
At 17:19 3/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:
>
>> At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
>> >Yes, I am, but...
>> >
>> >Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
>>
>> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
>> and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
>> wolf spider is.
>
> Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
>close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
>being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
>that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
>
>The Spaceman

That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
you were afraid of a fish?

BLAIR
Message no. 17
From: Mike Alex <mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 18:41:49 -0700 (MST)
> >
> > Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
> >close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
> >being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
> >that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
> >
> >The Spaceman
>
> That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
> birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
> you were afraid of a fish?
>

How about a bat totem? -2 dice during daylight, +2 dice vs.
insect (not incest :) spirits. Something like that?

Mike Alex, mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu
"Resistance is futile, (if < 1 ohm)."
Message no. 18
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 20:59:13 -0500
At 18:41 3/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> >
>> > Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
>> >close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
>> >being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
>> >that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
>> >
>> >The Spaceman
>>
>> That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
>> birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
>> you were afraid of a fish?
>>
>
> How about a bat totem? -2 dice during daylight, +2 dice vs.
>insect (not incest :) spirits. Something like that?
>
> Mike Alex, mra0118@******.sdsmt.edu
> "Resistance is futile, (if < 1 ohm)."
>
>

Nice! Fits with my original idea too.

I LOVE feedback!

BLAIR
Message no. 19
From: Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:45:51 -0500 (EST)
At 06:34 PM 3/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 17:02 3/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>>>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>>>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>>>
>>>Blair
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Anteater totem?
>>
>>
>At first I though that idea was a shot, But actually it sounds like a good
>idea. The only problem with it is who would want to follow it? "I am Long
>Tongue. I follow Anteater!" Sounds a bit silly doesn't it? :)
>
It sure does... but you may be able to pick up some chicks. Uh huh huh huh
heh heh heh


We now return this uh... e-mail thingie to uh... heh heh Chariot.

Chariot
--
chariot@*******.net
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Message no. 20
From: Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:52:33 -0500 (EST)
At 05:19 PM 3/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:
>
>> At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
>> >Yes, I am, but...
>> >
>> >Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
>>
>> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
>> and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
>> wolf spider is.
>
> Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
>close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
>being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
>that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
>
How about a frog? Frogs eat flies. How about a monkey. Don't they eat
termites and ants?
Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
kinda scary wouldn't it?

Anyways... I still like the Anteater totem. I wonder if he would be into
incest? (Sorry... I had to. :) )
--
chariot@*******.net
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Message no. 21
From: Sgt Pepper <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 00:20:48 EST
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:52:33 -0500 (EST) Roger Ramirez said:
>>
>How about a frog? Frogs eat flies. How about a monkey. Don't they eat
>termites and ants?
>Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
>kinda scary wouldn't it?
>
There was a mention of termite totems in Universal Brotherhood, but not a
full write up, and no mention in bug city that i could find.

Sgt Pepper
Message no. 22
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:51:37 GMT + 2:00
@ >Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
@ >kinda scary wouldn't it?
@ >
@ There was a mention of termite totems in Universal Brotherhood, but not a
@ full write up, and no mention in bug city that i could find.

At least cities are semi-safe from termites, after all no plant
(read wood) life around no termites. However I wonder what would
happen if they where placed in a very dence wooded area such as
Amazonia, problem is (if I remember my biology classes from more than
a few years ago) they only really eat dead vegitation, oh well there
goes another idea.





Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:46:35 +1000 (EST)
>That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
>birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
>you were afraid of a fish?

What 'bout bats?


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 24
From: Nemerrle@***.com
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 03:00:42 -0500
I have stats for a bat totem I got from a chalenge magazine. It has nothing
to do with insect spirits.
you can e-mail me if you would like it.

Nemerrle@***.com
Message no. 25
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:03:15 GMT + 2:00
@ >That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
@ >birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
@ >you were afraid of a fish?
@
@ What 'bout bats?

Fear of bats is normally an irrational phobia (similar to that of
mice). Mind you add a little spell tinkering and you never know. The
problem with bats though a)nocternal creatures (-2 day, +2 night),
b)poor eyesight (-2 visual perception, +2
auditory percetion)
c) skitish
d) in certain countries they are a
delacity (sp?;)

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 26
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:35:04 +1000 (EST)
>I have stats for a bat totem I got from a chalenge magazine. It has nothing
>to do with insect spirits.
>you can e-mail me if you would like it.

Starting characters as 0-grade initiates is munchkinous, you know... (So
was most of that Challenge mag article, though the ideas were neat.)


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 27
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:52:29 +0100
A. Blair Blackwell said on 11 Mar 96...

> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem.

Finally! Someone who knows the difference! :)

> Therefore it is a PC totem and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is
> not helpful to humanity, the wolf spider is.

Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Iedereen lult
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 28
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:52:29 +0100
Not Robert Watkins but someone else said on 12 Mar 96...

> >That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
> >birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
> >you were afraid of a fish?

The last time you run into a 10-meter shark, I would imagine...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Iedereen lult
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 29
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 09:32:24 PST
---------------Original Message---------------
You wrote:

>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading
>Bug City
>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?

>Blair

I'm truly sorry, but hahahahahahahaha. :) ROTFLMAO

INCEST spirits! Those pesky things never seem to leave home.

Frank


----------End of Original Message----------
No, it was the Ghost in the machine that did it. :)

Patrick
Message no. 30
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:18:25 GMT + 2:00
@ Not Robert Watkins but someone else said on 12 Mar 96...
@
@ > >That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
@ > >birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
@ > >you were afraid of a fish?
@
@ The last time you run into a 10-meter shark, I would imagine...
@
I figure that being about 1,500 ft (or more) above sealevel and
about 600K from the nearest coastline prevents me running into that
problem. On the hand howabout snakes. I might be very wrong but don't
molesnakes eat insects (almost exclusively). As for lizards to be
scared of somehow I don't think that running into a Kolamado (Sp)
dragon would be that much fun (about 3 meters in length).




Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 31
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:54:32 +1000 (EST)
> As for lizards to be
>scared of somehow I don't think that running into a Kolamado (Sp)
>dragon would be that much fun (about 3 meters in length).

Komodo's are nasty... they're not called dragons for nothing. :) Not to
mention they can run faster than a man, and are agile enough so running
in a curve or zig-zagging doesn't help you. (Unlike crocodiles...)


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 32
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:44:11 +0000 (GMT)
|
|I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
|a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
|Anyone interested in seeing the stats?

Incest Spirits.....
Interesting.....
Hmmmmm....
Freudian slip mayhap? ;)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:33:30 +0000 (GMT)
|
|At 18:41 3/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
|> How about a bat totem? -2 dice during daylight, +2 dice vs.
|>insect (not incest :) spirits. Something like that?
|
|Nice! Fits with my original idea too.
|
|I LOVE feedback!

"Who are you????!!!??"
"I'm BATSHAMAN"

I think he should also have +2 dice on casting a spell.
"Enhance senses... Sonar".
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:58:13 -0600
>Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
>see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
>but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
>gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl

Thanks Gurth. For a minute I was thought this was going to turn into an
argument on moral reletivism (which I will try to avoid as much as
possible). _But_, from a human perspective, insects are evil. They seek
the destruction of mankind. Hitler was evil for that same reason. Horrors
are evil for that reason. Gazelles wouldn't mind terribly if all the lions
in the world got sucked into outer space for that reason. Saying "I feel
that that was ok" doesn't make it right.

Wow, I totally failed to do what I said I was going to.
Such is life.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 35
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:20:19 +0000 (GMT)
|
|A. Blair Blackwell said on 11 Mar 96...
|
|> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem.
|
|Finally! Someone who knows the difference! :)
|
|> Therefore it is a PC totem and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is
|> not helpful to humanity, the wolf spider is.
|
|Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
|see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
|but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
|gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]

And besides, Spider was considered evil in the secrets or power books.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 36
From: Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:12:14 -0500 (EST)
At 08:51 AM 3/12/96, you wrote:
>@ >Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
>@ >kinda scary wouldn't it?
>@ >
>@ There was a mention of termite totems in Universal Brotherhood, but not a
>@ full write up, and no mention in bug city that i could find.
>
> At least cities are semi-safe from termites, after all no plant
>(read wood) life around no termites. However I wonder what would
>happen if they where placed in a very dence wooded area such as
>Amazonia, problem is (if I remember my biology classes from more than
>a few years ago) they only really eat dead vegitation, oh well there
>goes another idea.
>
Well... how about if someone made Termite spirits with an added twist. They
don't just
eat dead vegetation. Maybe they eat something else. How about
ferrocrete<SP?>, plastic,
metal, or some other common element within a city. Imagine if some city was
infested
with these things tearing the foundation of some city out.

Just an interesting idea.

Chariot
--
chariot@*******.net
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Message no. 37
From: Wratchet-RN@**.arizona.edu
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:18:22 -0700
>
>Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
>and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
>wolf spider is.
>
------------------------------------
Spider is an arachnid and may be found in Awakenings, along this same line
is Scorpin another arachnid, who can be found in Cal Free State. Mantis is
an insect, one that feeds on other insects, but still an insect. The
concept for insect vs. arachnid can be found within many native theologic
views. Insect spirits are unpredictable, even alien forces, that do not
work well with other creatures. They completely ingore other creatures at
best, and are parasites or killers at worst. Arachnids are black-hat
guardians. They distroy insects, protecting other creatures from their
infection. However, they do not do this out of altruism, but because they
can. They are fiercly independant, even to the point of fighting each
other. The fact that they help guard against insects, is pure chance.
Neither are inherently evil. But insects are viewed as very alien from
humanity and other creatures, and arachnids are a cross between the two.
They understand the insect, that is why they are such effienct killers, but
they are still capable of interacting with humanity. Why? I do not know.
:) That gets into more primitive and native theology then I know at this time.

With these concepts in mind, I would preclude pc's from playing insects, but
not arachnids. Their are plently of asocial animals other than arachnids
that players can portray, thus arachnids are a-okay, IMHO. As for Spider
being evil in one of those modules. I remember playing that, and I took it
as a toxic version of Spider. One that minipulates, views all of existance
as prey, and that is why it was locked away. The current Spider in
Awakenings does not strike me that way. [Spider kill 'em, I hate bugs.]
{Have you not been joined? Spider is not a bug.} [Who the frag cares, me
hates spiders!] <I did not realize we were arachnaphobic?> [What da frag is
aracniphibrocnicfragit! We taint none o dat.] It means we are afraid of
spiders. And no we are not, only his part of us is.

I like Wolf Spider, it helps to distiguish between different types of
Spiders. Black Widow and Brown Recluse I would say, are verging on toxic.
While Daddy Longlegs, Crab Spiders, Wolfs, Sun Spiders, and Tarantulas are
more pc friendly. <Ah, a veritable pletheria of arachnidic
delights.>[Huh?]{Never mind, she is just being cocky.}

Any one for a Centipede Shaman? {Sure, we'll eat it for lunch.} <You are
the barbian in us.> [Hey, what bout me?] <Oh, yes. You too.> {I hate to
admit it, but we are two of a feather sometimes.} Who says we all can't
just get along. <Do we have an option?> {No we are 'stuck' with each
other.} <Very amusing. Ha.> Alrighty all, let's drop it and send this
email on.

Shalom.
Nurse Wratchet
*****************************************************************
[0.5 MP CUT by BIG BROTHER. This message has been censored by the
new net censorship bill.]
Frag that! <Wouldn't you like to know **/**/**>
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
This thought is sponsored by:
"Nurse Wratchet":Wratchet-RN@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 38
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:36:21 -0500
At 11:52 3/12/96 +0100, you wrote:
>A. Blair Blackwell said on 11 Mar 96...
>
>> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem.
>
>Finally! Someone who knows the difference! :)
>
>> Therefore it is a PC totem and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is
>> not helpful to humanity, the wolf spider is.
>
>Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
>see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
>but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
>gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Iedereen lult
> -> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
>-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

Agreed, but I had to over simplify to get my point accross. Question is:
Would that aforementioned shark (fish) be evil if he took a nibble? :)

BALIR
Message no. 39
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:44:09 -0500
At 14:20 3/12/96 +0000, Halliwell wrote:
>|
>|A. Blair Blackwell said on 11 Mar 96...
>|
>|> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem.
>|
>|Finally! Someone who knows the difference! :)
>|
>|> Therefore it is a PC totem and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is
>|> not helpful to humanity, the wolf spider is.
>|
>|Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
>|see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
>|but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
>|gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]
>
>And besides, Spider was considered evil in the secrets or power books.....
>--

That was one person. Read Awakening. In the back on p.155 it has the spider
totem. Nowhere in the description does it state that the totem is an insect
or evil. It IS a PC totem.

BLAIR
Message no. 40
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:57:15 +0000 (GMT)
|
|At 14:20 3/12/96 +0000, Halliwell wrote:
|>And besides, Spider was considered evil in the secrets or power books.....
|>--
|
|That was one person. Read Awakening. In the back on p.155 it has the spider
|totem. Nowhere in the description does it state that the totem is an insect
|or evil. It IS a PC totem.

Here's a thought. I've not seen awakenings yet, but why was Spider
imprisoned?

She is very good at weaving intricate plots.....
Perhaps she pissed off the elven illuminati.....
(After all, Urdli was the guardian.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 41
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:17:56 +0100 (MET)
Blair wrote:
> I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
> a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
> Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>
Why do you want to invent a totem "for" something?As far as I know, totems
"represent" something, some "Archetypus", a "bubdle" of
characteristics, but
are not "for" or "against" someone... Will you invent the
totem against Shadowrunners, too?

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 42
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:45:52 -0500
At 22:17 3/12/96 +0100, Sascha wrote:
>Blair wrote:
>> I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>> a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>> Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>>
>Why do you want to invent a totem "for" something?As far as I know, totems
>"represent" something, some "Archetypus", a "bubdle" of
characteristics, but
>are not "for" or "against" someone... Will you invent the
>totem against Shadowrunners, too?
>

You forget that magic is a manifestation of the living creatures around it.
Since Insect spirits are a danger to the world then the magic will respond
accordingly. Where do you think the purifiers of ED come from. The magic is
still the same. It only manifests differently because the world is
different. The traditions of magic do "represent" something. They represent
the world collective concsious, and as a result it manifests in the way we
need or want it to. For there to be a "anti-runner" totem there would have
to be a deep and overridding fear of shadowrunners as there is of Insect
spirits.

BLAIR
Message no. 43
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:16:17 -0600
>Blair wrote:
>> I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
>> a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
>> Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>>
>Why do you want to invent a totem "for" something?As far as I know, totems
>"represent" something, some "Archetypus", a "bubdle" of
characteristics, but
>are not "for" or "against" someone... Will you invent the
>totem against Shadowrunners, too?
>
Sascha, think of it this way: the wolf spider totem "represents" the bugs
getting stomped on by the world, and as such, it exsists.

Personally, I feel that I have the power to "invent" any damn thing I want
in my world. In fact, I just may invent the totem anti-shadowrunner totem.
Just gotta think of a the right symbol. That'll scrag with your players.
Reminds me of the mage who got a "slay troll" spell just to annoy one of the
other players.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 44
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:08:27 -0500
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> possible). _But_, from a human perspective, insects are evil. They seek
> the destruction of mankind. Hitler was evil for that same reason. Horrors
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Do they? Insects are only interested in 1) staying alive and 2) reproducing.
As far as I know, there is no aphid cabal plotting to take over the world.
Insect spirits are much the same. They are not necessarily out to eat
people. All they want is food and hosts for their young.

> are evil for that reason. Gazelles wouldn't mind terribly if all the lions

Horrors are evil because they are nasty and they do it just to be nasty.

--Craig, gettin' metaphysical
Message no. 45
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:44:21 -0600
>At 08:51 AM 3/12/96, you wrote:
>>@ >Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
>>@ >kinda scary wouldn't it?
>>@ >
>>@ There was a mention of termite totems in Universal Brotherhood, but not a
>>@ full write up, and no mention in bug city that i could find.
>>
>> At least cities are semi-safe from termites, after all no plant
>>(read wood) life around no termites. However I wonder what would
>>happen if they where placed in a very dence wooded area such as
>>Amazonia, problem is (if I remember my biology classes from more than
>>a few years ago) they only really eat dead vegitation, oh well there
>>goes another idea.
>>
>Well... how about if someone made Termite spirits with an added twist. They
>don't just
>eat dead vegetation. Maybe they eat something else. How about
>ferrocrete<SP?>, plastic,
>metal, or some other common element within a city. Imagine if some city was
>infested
>with these things tearing the foundation of some city out.
>
>Just an interesting idea.
>
>Chariot
>--
>chariot@*******.net
>http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
>
>
>
>
>
Well, who knows what an awakened termite might eat? ;-)
------------------------------------------------
"Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
(Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
trademarks of T$R incorperated)

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GMU/CS d- s++:+ a--- C++++ W++ N++ K+ w--- M-- PS+ PE- Y+>++
t++ 5- X- R* tv+ b++ Dl+ D++ G+ e* h-- !r z-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 46
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:45:34 -0500
On Mar 12, 1996 07:58:13, 'neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike
Broadwater)' wrote:


>Thanks Gurth. For a minute I was thought this was going to turn into an
>argument on moral reletivism (which I will try to avoid as much as
>possible). _But_, from a human perspective, insects are evil. They seek
>the destruction of mankind. Hitler was evil for that same reason.
Horrors
>are evil for that reason. Gazelles wouldn't mind terribly if all the
lions
>in the world got sucked into outer space for that reason. Saying "I feel
>that that was ok" doesn't make it right.

Okay, I'm cracking my metaphysical knuckles and taking a chance here on
the philosophy game. As discussed earlier on the "in-character" Shadowland
(http://www.shadowland.org, get on there NOW, it rocks, BTW, I'm Bluehair),
the insects are not "inherently" evil, but merely have a completely alien
mindset, and one that is not easily (nothing is impossible) understood by
humans.

Similarly, they are the first major evolutionary challenger to the
supremacy of (meta)humanity, and we (rightfully) feel threatened. While
they might not be seeking out specifically to be malevolent (sp?), they are
destroying us to make room for more insect spirits, their home is very
crowded. From their perspective, they are killing us and taking our bodies
merely to survive, from our perspective we are merely killing them to stay
alive, both of us are right :)

It gets complicated...oy (Krusty Oy).

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -

- http://heimdall.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
All I needed to know about Shakespeare I learned from
watching "Gargoyles"

"I tried to be nice to you, I now see no other alternative. Break
out the sporks!" -Tal Kedem
Message no. 47
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:47:46 +1100 (EST)
> Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
>close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
>being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
>that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard

Venus Fly Trap shaman anyone?

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 48
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:09:29 -0800 (PST)
>Horrors are evil because they are nasty and they do it just to be nasty.

On the other hand, most of the refined horrors feed on dark emotions of
pain, suffering, and so forth. Naturally, they feed better in areas that
possess more of it, and feed best on the emotions they can induce
themselves. You might say they're the realization of Evil itself. Or, you
could say that they just feed in the matter to which they're accustomed,
and therefore no more evil than any other predator.

Or you could say they'd like you to believe 2), when in fact, they're really 1).

<evil grin> \:->

>--Craig, gettin' metaphysical

Yep. ;-)

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 49
From: ftmck@**.netcom.com (Frank McKinney )
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:47:54 -0800
You wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
>>close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for
a being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those
fish that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard

>>The Spaceman

> That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of
any
> birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last
time
> you were afraid of a fish?
>
>Blair

Ever been in the water with a shark? I thought not. (yeah, yeah, i know
it's out of context, but...)

Actually plenty of songbirds eat insects, exclusively. The bird known
as the Shrike also has a interesting habit of impaling large insects on
thorns or barbed wire for a later lunch.

Just food for thought.
Frank
Message no. 50
From: Damon Wilson <damontw@****.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 21:50 MST
>>>The Spaceman
>
>> That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of
>any
>> birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last
>time
>> you were afraid of a fish?
>>
>>Blair
>
>Ever been in the water with a shark? I thought not. (yeah, yeah, i know
>it's out of context, but...)
>
>Actually plenty of songbirds eat insects, exclusively. The bird known
>as the Shrike also has a interesting habit of impaling large insects on
>thorns or barbed wire for a later lunch.
>
>Just food for thought.
>Frank

Actually sharks are cartilaganous fishes...they have cartilage instead of
bone...helps being a bilogy major (aka Pre-Veterinary)

...but FASA has already done the shark...how about Plankton or Coral shamans???

grin

Damon Wilson

damontw@****.com
Message no. 51
From: Jason Messer <bitter@****.ncn.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:45:23 -0800 (PST)
At 09:50 PM 3/12/96 MST, Damon wrote

--------------------->>> >---[SNIP!!! ->

>...but FASA has already done the shark...how about Plankton or Coral shamans???
>
>grin

Plankton shaman, that would be the entire PC group when the GM decides
to make 'em "get out and do something without being led" :)

_________________________________________________________________
"As technology became more important, the Trickster underwent a
shift in character and became the god of crafts -of technology,
if you will- while retaining the underlying roguish qualities"
-Neal Stephenson "The Diamond age"
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:14:37 +1000 (EST)
>|Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people
>|see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
>|but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
>|gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]
>
>And besides, Spider was considered evil in the secrets or power books.....

Neither Insect spirits or Spider are _evil_, per se... they are merely
incredibly alien. No, just because they take human bodies and possess
them doesn't make them evil... but it does give us a good excuse to hate
them.

Steer clear of good and evil discussions... you might not like what side
it turns out you're on. Stick with "them and us". It lets you clear away
all the philosophical drek and get straight down to cases.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 53
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:54:27 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, Benjamin wrote:

> >I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
> >a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
> >Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
>
>
> Yes, I am, but...
>
> Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?

I tawt I taw a Spider totem in a fasa production. I did, I did!

Nutcracker
<forgetting the name of the module>
>
> --
> Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
> benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)
>
> Probably the world's only Weretiger PhysAd
>
> no website
>
>
> When the going gets tough,
> the tough get going.
> the smart find a better way.
> the determined just keep going.
> <insert your fdavorite variation here>
>
Message no. 54
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:57:40 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:

> At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
> >>I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
> >>a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
> >>Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
> >
> >
> >Yes, I am, but...
> >
> >Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
> >
> >--
> >Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
>
> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
> and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
> wolf spider is.
>
Faux Pas Alert! Insect Totems/spirits are not evil they are alien in
thinking and cannot be understood with our though processes.

Nutcracker
<sounding like a fasa lawyer>
Message no. 55
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:02:48 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:

> At 17:19 3/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >On Mon, 11 Mar 1996, A. Blair Blackwell wrote:
> >
> >> At 15:56 3/11/96 PST, you wrote:
> >> >Yes, I am, but...
> >> >
> >> >Isn't that what the Mantid totem is?
> >>
> >> Yes, but the wolf spider IS NOT an insect totem. Therefore it is a PC totem
> >> and not inherently evil. The mantis totem is not helpful to humanity, the
> >> wolf spider is.
> >
> > Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
> >close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
> >being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
> >that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
> >
> >The Spaceman
>
> That would make the totem to easy to play. Besides I don't know of any
> birds, fish, or lizards that eat only insects. Also when was the last time
> you were afraid of a fish?
>
> BLAIR
Shark, pirhana(sp?), barracuda, megolith, all those spined/poisonish
fish, eating a catfish, ....

Plenty of animals eat only insects, a quick trip to your local library or
web sight will let a few in to your sights.

Nutcracker
Message no. 56
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:07:25 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Sgt Pepper wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Mar 1996 21:52:33 -0500 (EST) Roger Ramirez said:
> >>
> >How about a frog? Frogs eat flies. How about a monkey. Don't they eat
> >termites and ants?
> >Speaking of Termites... is there any termite spirits? Wow that would be
> >kinda scary wouldn't it?
> >
> There was a mention of termite totems in Universal Brotherhood, but not a
> full write up, and no mention in bug city that i could find.

Since we logged out all of North America, they died of starvation
>
> Sgt Pepper
>
Message no. 57
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 02:24:31 -0800 (PST)
To be biologically correct, Daddylonglegs are not spiders. Spiders only
eat live prey(prey they catch or entrap), while Daddylonglegs are scavangers.

Any ideas for a Lobster shaman?

Nutcracker
<sufering from sleep deprivation and getting giddy>
Message no. 58
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:08:09 +0200 (EET)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Kenneth Horner wrote:

> I tawt I taw a Spider totem in a fasa production. I did, I did!
>
> Nutcracker
> <forgetting the name of the module>

There was one at least in the Secrets of Power trilogy, wasn't there?

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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Message no. 59
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:12:40 +0100
Mike Broadwater said on 12 Mar 96...

> >Insect totems are also not "inherently evil" as you put it. Most people

> >see them as such, because they hunt people and do horrible things to them,
> >but that doesn't make them evil -- just different. A lion also hunts
> >gazelles, but does that make the lion evil? [philosophical mode off :)]
>
> Thanks Gurth. For a minute I was thought this was going to turn into an
> argument on moral reletivism (which I will try to avoid as much as
> possible).

Just for the record, this was *not* meant as sarcasm, satire, or any
other kind of humorous remark. Only the philosophical mode thing was.

> _But_, from a human perspective, insects are evil. They seek
> the destruction of mankind. Hitler was evil for that same reason. Horrors
> are evil for that reason. Gazelles wouldn't mind terribly if all the lions
> in the world got sucked into outer space for that reason. Saying "I feel
> that that was ok" doesn't make it right.

But I do think there's a difference between Hitler and an insect spirit.
The spirits, IMHO, just want to breed and are not troubled by anything --
just as the lion sees the gazelle and thinks "food," the insect spirits
see a (meta)human and think "breed." I say that if you want to point out
the evil in insect spirits, you should point to the shaman -- he/she is
the one who knows that it's considered evil to harm humans the way the
spirits are doing, but actively works to make them do their thing.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Als je niet nadenkt, klopt alles, altijd.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 60
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:54:33 GMT + 2:00
@ > I tawt I taw a Spider totem in a fasa production. I did, I did!
@ >
@ > Nutcracker
@ > <forgetting the name of the module>
@
@ There was one at least in the Secrets of Power trilogy, wasn't there?

The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
trying to trap a free toxic spirit.

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 61
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 21:37:21 +1030
>You forget that magic is a manifestation of the living creatures around it.
>Since Insect spirits are a danger to the world then the magic will respond
>accordingly. Where do you think the purifiers of ED come from. The magic is
>still the same. It only manifests differently because the world is
>different. The traditions of magic do "represent" something. They represent
>the world collective concsious, and as a result it manifests in the way we
>need or want it to. For there to be a "anti-runner" totem there would have
>to be a deep and overridding fear of shadowrunners as there is of Insect
>spirits.

Insect spirits are NOT a danger to the world... they represent an element
of Nature, just like all the other Totems. Now, they are a danger to
(meta)humanity. Where did _you_ think the purfiers of ED came from? They
came from a bunch of people who thought "Oh, shit, these guys are
dangerous to us!"

However, I do agree that there won't be an anti-runner totem. For that to
happen, the corps would have to go against runners. And, as they say,
enemies, friends, reason for existence, they're all the same.

--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 62
From: Damon Wilson <damontw@****.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 06:00 MST
Spider Totem is in Bug City p. 144.

Damon Wilson

damontw@****.com

At 12:08 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Matti M. Aistrich wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Kenneth Horner wrote:
>
>> I tawt I taw a Spider totem in a fasa production. I did, I did!
>>
>> Nutcracker
>> <forgetting the name of the module>
>
>There was one at least in the Secrets of Power trilogy, wasn't there?
Message no. 63
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 22:57:40 +1030
>Since we logged out all of North America, they died of starvation

Tsk tsk tsk... the great forests of the American Northwest are, in 2050+,
possibly LARGER than they were at the time of European colonisation of
the region.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 64
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:36:46 -0600
>Personally, I feel that I have the power to "invent" any damn thing I want
>in my world. In fact, I just may invent the totem anti-shadowrunner totem.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Brought to you by the department of redundancy department.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 65
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:41:21 -0600
>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>
>> possible). _But_, from a human perspective, insects are evil. They seek
>> the destruction of mankind. Hitler was evil for that same reason. Horrors
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Do they? Insects are only interested in 1) staying alive and 2) reproducing.
>As far as I know, there is no aphid cabal plotting to take over the world.
>Insect spirits are much the same. They are not necessarily out to eat
>people. All they want is food and hosts for their young.
>
>> are evil for that reason. Gazelles wouldn't mind terribly if all the lions
>
>Horrors are evil because they are nasty and they do it just to be nasty.
>
>--Craig, gettin' metaphysical
>
And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 66
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:00:43 -0600
> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have shamen)

>trying to trap a free toxic spirit.
>
>Andre'

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 67
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 23:59:36 +1030
>And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
>food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
>if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
>and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
>and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
>even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.

And how do you think cows view us?


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 68
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:09:27 +0000 (GMT)
|
|> Hmmmmm..... The wolf spider, while not an insect, is a being so
|>close that many mistake it for an insect. So perhaps if you went for a
|>being more discrete from insects it would help (Like one of those fish
|>that eat flies, or a spcecial type of bird or lizard
|
|Venus Fly Trap shaman anyone?

Well, I think that beats the oyster totem in the silly totem thread from
last month......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 69
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:24:22 -0600
>>And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
>>food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
>>if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
>>and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
>>and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
>>even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.
>
>And how do you think cows view us?
As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 70
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:22:29 +0000 (GMT)
|>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
|And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
|food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
|if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
|and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
|and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
|even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.

OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?
No. In fact, think of all the polination (sp?) they could do.
(I wonder what the honey would taste like.....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 71
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:29:24 +0000 (GMT)
|
|
|> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
|>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
|Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
|word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
|depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have shamen)
^^^^^^

I hate to break it to you, but I think that *is* the correct plural for
shaman.

I agree with the sha wo man crap though. It's just pollitical correctness.
And as far as I'm concerned, political correctness is for the mentally
underprivaliged (hehehehe). Or terminally thick, to you and I.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 72
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:42:39 -0600
>>And how do you think cows view us?

>As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
>feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
>perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
>human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
>to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
>think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
>it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
>the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
>that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?

*Cheers Mike on!!*

You tell 'em, man! I find myself in 100% agreement with him for once :)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 73
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:44:25 +0000 (GMT)
|>And how do you think cows view us?
|As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
|feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
|perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
|human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
|to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
|think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
|it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
|the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
|that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?

Naughty. No smilies.....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 74
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:40:07 -0600
>I hate to break it to you, but I think that *is* the correct plural for
>shaman.
No, see, your thinking eurocentrically again, and shaman is a Native
american word, not derived from an european language.

1 shaman, 2 shamans

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 75
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:41:39 -0600
>I agree with the sha wo man crap though. It's just pollitical correctness.
>And as far as I'm concerned, political correctness is for the mentally
>underprivaliged (hehehehe). Or terminally thick, to you and I.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Glad to hear that somebody agrees with me on at least somethings, even if
not everything.

Mike
Message no. 76
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:44:07 -0600
>Naughty. No smilies.....
>
Yeah, but you only use those if your joking around. :)

Mike
Message no. 77
From: Wratchet-RN@**.arizona.edu
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:07:52 -0700
>To be biologically correct, Daddylonglegs are not spiders. Spiders only
>eat live prey(prey they catch or entrap), while Daddylonglegs are scavangers.
>
True. Just sounded cute to me. Daddy guides me. we clean up the junk in
the streets. Daddy and his Longlegs protect and shelter me. Sounds very
similar to that incest spirit. :) (:We know it was a typo, but funny, no?.:)

Nurse Wratchet
( No I guess not. :)
*****************************************************************
[0.5 MP CUT by BIG BROTHER. This message has been censored by the
new net censorship bill.]
Frag that! <Wouldn't you like to know **/**/**>
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
This thought is sponsored by:
"Nurse Wratchet":Wratchet-RN@**.arizona.edu
*****************************************************************
Message no. 78
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:21:46 -0600
>OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
>Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?
>No. In fact, think of all the polination (sp?) they could do.
>(I wonder what the honey would taste like.....)
>--
Ants aren't predatory and bad to humans. Either are cockroaches. Same with
just about every bug in bug city. How ever, you make them into 6 foot tall,
possessing spirits, and things turn real ugly.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 79
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:45:59 -0600
>*Cheers Mike on!!*
>
>You tell 'em, man! I find myself in 100% agreement with him for once :)
Bob, what is that, 5th or 6th sign of the apocalypse? :)

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 80
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:04:31 +0000 (GMT)
|
|>*Cheers Mike on!!*
|>
|>You tell 'em, man! I find myself in 100% agreement with him for once :)
|Bob, what is that, 5th or 6th sign of the apocalypse? :)

Ah, but Labour haven't been elected in a british General Election.
I thought that was the first or second. (or maybe third).

And I *still* haven't seen a pig fly... (under it's own power)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 81
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:45:45 -0500
On Mar 13, 1996 10:42:39, 'TopCat <topcat@******.net>' wrote:


<Snip of Mike Describing the evil-ness of Bugs>


>*Cheers Mike on!!*
>
>You tell 'em, man! I find myself in 100% agreement with him for once :)

Hells yeah, in practice I think they are EXTREMELY evil, just when you get
theoretical it changes :)


--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 82
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:36:02 -0500
On Mar 13, 1996 07:36:46, 'neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike
Broadwater)' wrote:


>>Personally, I feel that I have the power to "invent" any damn thing I
want
>>in my world. In fact, I just may invent the totem anti-shadowrunner
totem.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Brought to you by the department of redundancy department.
>
>Mike Broadwater
>http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
>"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
>duct tape to make them stop."

Agreed, he messed up, but you guys are tearing apart any typo that people
make, first inSECT, then this! Constructive Criticism, although this was
funny :)

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 83
From: Sgt Pepper <GRBENNET@*****.CIS.ECU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 13:02:28 EST
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:00:43 -0600 Mike Broadwater said:
>
>> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
>>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
>Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
>word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
>depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have shamen)
Actually, i think the plural would be shamen, just as the plural of woman is
women, but i do agree that the attempt at P.C. was uneeded.

Sgt Pepper


Come to Elfman's World, http://www.ecu.edu/~grbennet/elfman.html

GeekCodev3.0

GM/ED d- s+: g+ a26 c++ u- P? L E? W !N K- w+ M-- V+ PS+ PE Y+ PGP-
t+ 5 X+ R+ tv+ b+(++) DI d G e++(+++) h+ r++(+++) y+
Message no. 84
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:06:44 -0600
>>>Personally, I feel that I have the power to "invent" any damn thing
I
>want
>>>in my world. In fact, I just may invent the totem anti-shadowrunner
>totem.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Brought to you by the department of redundancy department.
>>
>Agreed, he messed up, but you guys are tearing apart any typo that people
>make, first inSECT, then this! Constructive Criticism, although this was
>funny :)

Thanks for defending me and all, but I not only wrote the original, I sent
that reply after I recieved my message and saw what I had written. Really,
I don't mind me ripping on me. I'm a nice enough guy usually. Should I go
hit me with a wet carp?

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 85
From: Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:42:12 -0500 (EST)
At 01:02 PM 3/13/96 EST, you wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:00:43 -0600 Mike Broadwater said:
>>
>>> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
>>>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
>>Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
>>word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
>>depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have
shamen)
>Actually, i think the plural would be shamen, just as the plural of woman is
>women, but i do agree that the attempt at P.C. was uneeded.
>
Wait a sec. If we should say sha wo man then whould we say wo wo man? :)

Chariot
--
chariot@*******.net
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Message no. 86
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.cse.psu.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:19:17 -0500
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
> food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
> if it was say, one of your parents, eh?

It would be tragic, but not evil.

> they get some more humans. They're evil, and you cannot make an
> intelligent argument about them being good to, or even neutral torwards,
> meta/humanity.

Bet? ;) The difference, as I see it, is whether they are mean because they
*want* to or because they *have* to. People resort to cannibalism under
extreme circumstances (witness the Donner party and 'Alive'). Were these
people evil because they did what they did only to survive?

--Craig
Message no. 87
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:47:46 +1100 (EST)
Mad Hamish:

>Venus Fly Trap shaman anyone?

That guy from WKRP? Cool :)

>Mad Hamish
>
>Hamish Laws
>h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 88
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:35:52 -0600
At 11:45 AM 3/13/96 -0600, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>>*Cheers Mike on!!*
>>You tell 'em, man! I find myself in 100% agreement with him for once :)

>Bob, what is that, 5th or 6th sign of the apocalypse? :)

The Seventh, the Sixth was when we got that letter from Kenson saying the EI
was going to be dopwnplayed. So start spending that retirement cash, people ;)


------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 89
From: h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:29:59 +1100 (EST)
>I LOVE feedback!

then get a microphone, connect it to an amplifier, put it in front of the
speakers driven by that amplifier and turn everything on.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.sandybay.utas.edu.au
Message no. 90
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:29:29 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Damon Wilson wrote:

> Spider Totem is in Bug City p. 144.
>
> Damon Wilson
>
> damontw@****.com
>
> At 12:08 PM 3/13/96 +0200, Matti M. Aistrich wrote:
> >On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Kenneth Horner wrote:
> >
> >> I tawt I taw a Spider totem in a fasa production. I did, I did!
> >>
> >> Nutcracker
> >> <forgetting the name of the module>
> >
> >There was one at least in the Secrets of Power trilogy, wasn't there?
>
>
Eureka! It was _Total Eclipse_ that I saw it in. Anybody got in on
hand, to check howlong the Spider has been in the game?

Nutcracker
<in recovery from sleep deprivation>
Message no. 91
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:40:36 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
> >food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
> >if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
> >and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
> >and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
> >even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.
>
> And how do you think cows view us?

Depends if their dairy cows or not. Dairy cows have become accustom to
human prescence and will become upset without (read drop in milk
production, the measuring stick by which cows' attitudes & health are
measured) human prescence. Cattle raised for slaughter don't have the
constant association with humans that dairy cows have and are quite
nuetral towards us. They don't have any forsight into what will happen
to them becasue of us. This seperates us from the cows. That and the
whole methane thing.

Nutcracker
<using his life at an Ag. school for your benifit>
Message no. 92
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:50:13 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, A Halliwell wrote:

> |>On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
> |And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
> |food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
> |if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
> |and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
> |and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
> |even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.
>
> OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
> Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?
> No. In fact, think of all the polination (sp?) they could do.
> (I wonder what the honey would taste like.....)
> --
You forget that ants, FIREFLIES, beetles, etc. are not preditory to
humans. What is the big difference between a wasp and a bee? Both lead
very similar lives and are reasonable similar. Though come to think of
it, fireflies migt be FASA's attempt to introduce an insect spirit that
people might not have as much objection to, unlike roaches and wasps.

Nutcracker
Message no. 93
From: Paul Shryer <passman@**.duluth.mn.us>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:06:20 -0600
At 10:47 AM 3/13/96 +1100, you wrote:
>Mad Hamish:
>
>>Venus Fly Trap shaman anyone?
>
>That guy from WKRP? Cool :)

Wouldn't that be a "Tacky Shaman"?

Passman
--
An Engineer looks at a problem and asks "Why?"
A poet looks and asks "Why Not?"
Which would you rather be?
- Little ole me
Message no. 94
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 20:13:07 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> >I hate to break it to you, but I think that *is* the correct plural for
> >shaman.
> No, see, your thinking eurocentrically again, and shaman is a Native
> american word, not derived from an european language.
>
> 1 shaman, 2 shamans
>
eurocentrically? englishcentrically. In romance and germanic languages
there isn't a man-men thing, usually just add an "S", though with french
there are _always_ exceptions. Just for kicks:

1 shaman, 2 shami?
1 shaman, 2 shamis?
1 shaman, 2 shamice?
1 shaman, 2 shaman(ala moose)?
1toxic shaman, 1 toxic shaman and a corpse?

please don't flame me too bad..... ;)

Nutcracker
Message no. 95
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:33:57 GMT + 2:00
@ >> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
@ >>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
@ >Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
@ >word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
@ >depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have shamen)
@ Actually, i think the plural would be shamen, just as the plural of woman is
@ women, but i do agree that the attempt at P.C. was uneeded.
@
@ Sgt Pepper

I offer you my humblist apologies (and won't say anymore in case
I put my foot in it ;)). Just by the way as a sort of continuation,
unless I am *terribly* wrong and highly sexist (which I don't think I
am), wouldn't most if not all spider shamen would be female in
gender. From what I know of spiders the chance of there being a male
spider shamen (who live a long carreer) would be very small.






Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 96
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:36:44 +0100
Kenneth Horner said on 13 Mar 96...

> eurocentrically? englishcentrically. In romance and germanic languages
> there isn't a man-men thing, usually just add an "S"

Or "en": man - mannen (OK, that's "nen")

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Exit time is inversely proportional to distance from door.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 97
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 21:12:35 +1030
[Re: shamen?]
>I hate to break it to you, but I think that *is* the correct plural for
>shaman.

Bzzt... shaman is not derived from the masculine word man and any other.
:) It's an Anglicisation of a Indian (Asian indian, that is) word. The
correct plural for shaman is shamans.

Shamen is a plural used by raving PC's (political correct, that is) who
want to try and find gender references in everything. Like wanting to
change manual to personual.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 98
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 21:12:21 +1030
>OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
>Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?

They still use human hosts... :)


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 99
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:52:32 +0200 (EET)
On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Shamen is a plural used by raving PC's (political correct, that is) who
> want to try and find gender references in everything. Like wanting to
> change manual to personual.
>
And history to herstory.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GB d+(++) s-:+ a- C+ W+ w PS+ PE++ Y+ t---
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Message no. 100
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 21:33:28 +1030
>Bet? ;) The difference, as I see it, is whether they are mean because they
>*want* to or because they *have* to. People resort to cannibalism under
>extreme circumstances (witness the Donner party and 'Alive'). Were these
>people evil because they did what they did only to survive?

The problem is simply that we can't define evil in an objective way. I
can quite confidently say that if we did, we'd look at the scales and
start being worried 'bout which side we, as a race, were.

Curiously, good and evil seems to be largely a Biblical concept... Other
cultures don't always have such concepts, even some advanced ones. Take
Buddhism for example... there's no concept of good and evil there, just
more a general feeling of karmic debt, caused by harming others.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 101
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 96 21:34:26 +1030
>>And how do you think cows view us?
>As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
>feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
>perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
>human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
>to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
>think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
>it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
>the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
>that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?

Yeah, and I agree with this... but just 'cause they like using us as
reproductive material doesn't make them evil... good and evil should be
absolutes, but as such they are rather hard to define. :) OTH, if you
ignore the philosophical gunk, and just get on with the business of
killing them, everything remains nice and easy.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 102
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:12:57 +0000 (GMT)
|
|On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, A Halliwell wrote:
|> OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
|> Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?
|> No. In fact, think of all the polination (sp?) they could do.
|> (I wonder what the honey would taste like.....)
|> --
|You forget that ants, FIREFLIES, beetles, etc. are not preditory to
|humans. What is the big difference between a wasp and a bee? Both lead

Ahhh! But bees and butterflies arne't predatory at all.
Ants kill things, as do beatles and wasps. But butterflies don't.

|very similar lives and are reasonable similar. Though come to think of
|it, fireflies migt be FASA's attempt to introduce an insect spirit that
|people might not have as much objection to, unlike roaches and wasps.
|
|Nutcracker
|


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 103
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:39:36 +0000 (GMT)
|
|[Re: shamen?]
|>I hate to break it to you, but I think that *is* the correct plural for
|>shaman.
|
|Bzzt... shaman is not derived from the masculine word man and any other.
|:) It's an Anglicisation of a Indian (Asian indian, that is) word. The
|correct plural for shaman is shamans.
|
|Shamen is a plural used by raving PC's (political correct, that is) who
|want to try and find gender references in everything. Like wanting to
|change manual to personual.

EEEEEEEEEK!
That's the first time I've ever been caught out by PCism.
Never again! Please.... Don't let it happen again! *sob*
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 104
From: "A. Blair Blackwell" <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:35:39 -0500
At 14:12 3/14/96 +0000, A. Halliwell wrote:

>Ahhh! But bees and butterflies arne't predatory at all.
>Ants kill things, as do beatles and wasps. But butterflies don't.
>

Your getting confused again. They are insects. In this world insects are
bad. Stop thinking in human terms. Just because they are pretty does not
mean they are not bad. Lets face it, some of the most beautiful people in
the world are the biggest %*&$@(#$! to ever walk the face of the earth.

BLAIR

ps, did the symbol thing cause I didn't know how the actually word would go
over. :)
Message no. 105
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:27:26 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Andre' Selmer wrote:

> @ >> The last one I think, it was doing all the manipulation. In
> @ >>one of our games we had a spider sha(wo)man fiddling with the mafia
> @ >Please, never, ever, say this again^^^^^^^^^, even satirically. Shaman is a
> @ >word, just like human is a word. The man is part of the word, it's not
> @ >depented on the sex of the person or the number. (so you wouldn't have shamen)
> @ Actually, i think the plural would be shamen, just as the plural of woman is
> @ women, but i do agree that the attempt at P.C. was uneeded.
> @
> @ Sgt Pepper
>
> I offer you my humblist apologies (and won't say anymore in case
> I put my foot in it ;)). Just by the way as a sort of continuation,
> unless I am *terribly* wrong and highly sexist (which I don't think I
> am), wouldn't most if not all spider shamen would be female in
> gender. From what I know of spiders the chance of there being a male
> spider shamen (who live a long carreer) would be very small.
>
Not all spiders kill their mates, its not evolutionarily favorable.

Nutcracker
Message no. 106
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 12:45:34 -0800 (PST)
On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, A Halliwell wrote:

> |
> |On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, A Halliwell wrote:
> |> OK. What about the butterfly Totem and the Bee Totem?
> |> Alien, yes. Predatory and nasty to humans?
> |> No. In fact, think of all the polination (sp?) they could do.
> |> (I wonder what the honey would taste like.....)
> |> --
> |You forget that ants, FIREFLIES, beetles, etc. are not preditory to
> |humans. What is the big difference between a wasp and a bee? Both lead
>
> Ahhh! But bees and butterflies arne't predatory at all.
> Ants kill things, as do beatles and wasps. But butterflies don't.
>
Termites are scavangers, not preditors. Many beetles and fireflies are
scavangers as well, not to mention roaches. Most of the insects
mentioned are either scavangers or primary consumers (the eat plants or
some part there of). Again, wasps are just as preditory, violent and
defensive as bees. What about the "Killer Bees" which are preditory
African bees? Quite the hostility problem there.

Nutcracker
Message no. 107
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:47:22 GMT + 2:00
From what I know of spiders the chance of there being a male
@ > spider shamen (who live a long carreer) would be very small.
@ >
@ Not all spiders kill their mates, its not evolutionarily favorable.
@
@ Nutcracker

Agreed. But the totem seems to be the typical/sterotypical
creature found in legend. For example take the wolf. You don't get
the Alaskian wolf totem (is there an Alaskian wolf by the way?), the
european wolf totem, the north american white wolf totem etc. While
there are several spiecies of spider that don't consume there mates,
I would project (purely hypthetically) that the spider is based on
more common knowledge / perception (courtousy of Media), which would
suggest to me that the totem would pick predominently females.




Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 108
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 10:58:26 +0100
Robert Watkins said on 14 Mar 96...

> Shamen is a plural used by raving PC's (political correct, that is) who
> want to try and find gender references in everything. Like wanting to
> change manual to personual.

That's what you get with a language where there's no separate male/female
words :) Dutch, BTW, is going the other way in some areas, by using the
same word for men's and women's versions of a job, etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
And it's a problem that we can't mend, because it happened once, it
will happen again.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 109
From: Bob <R3EGK@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 96 14:55:08 EST
excuse me for jutting in but what does this have to do with anything????
--<<<<Curious in Cleveland>>>>--
A joke from my Calculus teacher:
a mathmetician and an engineer are sleeping in a room, the mathmatician wakes
up andsees a fire starting in the corner and sees a pail of water across the
room and goes back to sleep...the engineer wakes up and sees the fire and rushe
s for the pail of water and puts out the fire...he wakes up the mathmatician an
d saya"there was a fire"
"I know" replies the mathmatician.
"why didn't you put out the fire then?" screams the engineer
"I knew the solution existed, its your job to implement it."
Message no. 110
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:58:55 -0800 (PST)
>Not all spiders kill their mates, its not evolutionarily favorable.
>
>Nutcracker

Sure, it can be.

The male red Australian outback spider literally backflips onto the
female's mandibles during mating. Studies have shown that males that are
eaten by the female after mating spend more time in copulation, and thus
have a higher chance of passing their genes.

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 111
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 18:28:11 -0500
On Mar 15, 1996 13:58:55, 'acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)' wrote:


>>Not all spiders kill their mates, its not evolutionarily favorable.
>>
>>Nutcracker
>
>Sure, it can be.
>
>The male red Australian outback spider literally backflips onto the
>female's mandibles during mating. Studies have shown that males that are
>eaten by the female after mating spend more time in copulation, and thus
>have a higher chance of passing their genes.

New York Times right? :)

Anyway, the theory is that while the female is busy getting ready to eat
the male, he has more time to get as much sperm as possible in the female,
thus increasing the chances for successful fertilization. In a sick,
twisted sorta way (to us males :) ) it is an evolutionary favorability.

--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 112
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 23:06:32 EST
> And insects stay alive and reproduce by killing people. "All they want is
> food and hosts for their young." Aw, thats sweet. Wouldn't be that sweet
> if it was say, one of your parents, eh? People are what end up being food
> and hosts. They want more hosts, they get some more humans. They're evil,
> and you cannot make an intelligent argument about them being good to, or
> even neutral torwards, meta/humanity.

People stay alive and reproduce by killing insects, fellow mammals,
plants, etc. So people are evil and must be destroyed. They are not
good to or even neurtral to their fellow living organisms. I think
as a species would should trie and find an alternate source for life
giving energy that in no way, shape or form kills any living
organism ;). By your arguement this is the only conclusion. Good
luck in trying my fellow primates. Life by definition needs an
exterior source for energy, which in turn is needed to reproduce. If
you can name one organism that requires no exterior form of energy to
survive please do so. Your response is typical of the modern
homo(sampien)-centric attitude. Insect spirits are parasites by deifinition.
They need a host to survive. !!!!!WARNING THE FOLLOWIN STATEMENT MAY
BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME YOUNGER OR MORE SENSITIVE READERS!!!! Parental
guidance is suggested......















And so are mammalian fetuses. This does not make them (insect spirits)
evil. Like a previous post mentioned they are alien to our
understanding.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 113
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 00:08:49 EST
> >And how do you think cows view us?
> As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
> feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
> perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
> human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
> to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
> think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
> it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
> the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
> that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?

Since when is sacrificing any life-form a matter of survival. Eating
an organism is one thing sacrificing it is another. Now if you would
like to eat my first born child, more power to you. But hell, at one
time man did sacrifice living organisms, wait a minute they still do.

Acually you are neither in the right nor wrong. You just are. Good
and evil are abritrary homo-sapien religious based concepts, IOW they have no concrete
meaning.
Insect-Spirits are like new born babies. They don't have any idea of
good or evil. If taking
the life of human being is evil then why is the taking the life
of another living being not evil, please explain. If it is good for
me to eat a cow why is it not good for me to eat a human being.
What's the difference? Food is food. Unfortunately for Insect
Spirits this does not hold true, their only way to gain sustenance is
from human beings, don't you think they would use a dog if they could
they would put up less of a fight. All predators try for the easiest
prey they can get. It just happens that we humans grow our own prey.
This is what I believe people who are opposing you are trying to lead
to. Fact of modern life something must die in order for something to
live. The same holds true in 205x. You may like it or you may not,
either way you have to deal with it in your own way. I can see why
you say that they are evil, you have been brainwashed much like the
majority of are fellow homo-sapiens into thinking that man is the
only thing that has a right, everything else doesn't. Instead of
accepting what your brainwashers have told you, you should look into
your own heart, where someday you may discover that man is not in any
way superior to any other living organism.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 114
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:26:53 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Adam Getchell wrote:

> >Not all spiders kill their mates, its not evolutionarily favorable.
> >
> >Nutcracker
>
> Sure, it can be.
>
> The male red Australian outback spider literally backflips onto the
> female's mandibles during mating. Studies have shown that males that are
> eaten by the female after mating spend more time in copulation, and thus
> have a higher chance of passing their genes.
>
You have a very good point, but wouldn't favorable gene's be passed on
better if the spider with the favorable advantages lived longer and was
able to have more children than the weaker spiders?

Nutcracker
Message no. 115
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 19:45:00 +1030
>You have a very good point, but wouldn't favorable gene's be passed on
>better if the spider with the favorable advantages lived longer and was
>able to have more children than the weaker spiders?

Depends... Maybe their natural lifespan is such they're likely to die of
old age the next day anyway.

More to the point... eating the male spider gives the female spider
enough sustenance that they can hole up for a while and make the kiddies.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 116
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 19:45:49 +1030
> Life by definition needs an
>exterior source for energy, which in turn is needed to reproduce. If
>you can name one organism that requires no exterior form of energy to
>survive please do so. Your response is typical of the modern
>homo(sampien)-centric attitude.

As a point, there's no need for this energy to come from living things...
with modern technology, we _could_ subsist on synthesied food.

--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 117
From: Lady Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:02:45 +1000 (EST)
> Blair wrote:
> > I've got an idea for a new totem. I got the idea when I was reading Bug City
> > a while back. It's main function is the destruction of incest spirits.
> > Anyone interested in seeing the stats?
> >
> Why do you want to invent a totem "for" something?As far as I know, totems
> "represent" something, some "Archetypus", a "bubdle" of
characteristics, but
> are not "for" or "against" someone... Will you invent the
> totem against Shadowrunners, too?

There is one. It's called the GM. *grin*

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed are my own, unless you don't
agree with them, in which case they are my evil twin
sister's opinions.
Message no. 118
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:11:57 +0000 (GMT)
|
|excuse me for jutting in but what does this have to do with anything????

What does WHAT have to do with anything?

A totem is something that grants power to a shaman.
A new totem is a new, unpublished totem.

Does that clear everything up???????

If not, next time it might help if we knew WHAT you were talking about!
I need to be in line of sight to cast MIND PROBE y'know.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 119
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:15:51 +0000 (GMT)
|
|On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Adam Getchell wrote:
|You have a very good point, but wouldn't favorable gene's be passed on
|better if the spider with the favorable advantages lived longer and was
|able to have more children than the weaker spiders?

I suppose eating the male helps to prevent mating between relatives.
(He's not going to have kids with anyone else after all.....)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 120
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:02:18 -0800 (PST)
>You have a very good point, but wouldn't favorable gene's be passed on
>better if the spider with the favorable advantages lived longer and was
>able to have more children than the weaker spiders?

Not necessarily, which was the moral of the story.

In this case, the male spider comes across females so rarely that when he
gets the chance he must maximize his opportunity.

>Nutcracker

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 121
From: acgetchell@*******.edu (Adam Getchell)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 05:02:36 -0800 (PST)
>|On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, Adam Getchell wrote:
>|You have a very good point, but wouldn't favorable gene's be passed on
>|better if the spider with the favorable advantages lived longer and was
>|able to have more children than the weaker spiders?

I didn't write this. I wrote the section above this, which someone else
replied to with the above.

>|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |

=================================================================
Adam Getchell
acgetchell@*******.edu
http://www.engr.ucdavis.edu/~acgetche/
=================================================================

"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent."
-- Sun Tzu
Message no. 122
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:05:42 -0600
>People stay alive and reproduce by killing insects, fellow mammals,
>plants, etc. So people are evil and must be destroyed. They are not
>good to or even neurtral to their fellow living organisms. I think
>as a species would should trie and find an alternate source for life
>giving energy that in no way, shape or form kills any living
>organism ;). By your arguement this is the only conclusion. Good
>luck in trying my fellow primates. Life by definition needs an
>exterior source for energy, which in turn is needed to reproduce. If
>you can name one organism that requires no exterior form of energy to
>survive please do so. Your response is typical of the modern
>homo(sampien)-centric attitude. Insect spirits are parasites by deifinition.
>They need a host to survive. !!!!!WARNING THE FOLLOWIN STATEMENT MAY
>BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME YOUNGER OR MORE SENSITIVE READERS!!!! Parental
>guidance is suggested......

Wow, you so don't know what you're talking about. The discussion was moral
reletavism. What you're saying makes no sense to the discussion. If you're
attempting to say that insects are ok because they think they're doing good
things as far as they're concerned, and we shouldn't say the bugs are bad
because of that, then whatever I do is ok, as long as I think it is, and
therefore, when I kill your firstborn because I kill to the firstborn child
of objective moral relativists, then you can't say anything about it, and in
fact, should let me. Now, an objective moral relatvist is someone who
thinks that whatever someone does that they think is ok, is, in fact, ok.
But that's wrong. If you look at the world as whatever you do is right, no
matter what it is as long as you think it is, and the same applys to
everyone else, then anthing anyone does to you is fine. What the world does
(and this really applys to the bugs) is look at things subjectively.
Whatever most people think is wrong, is wrong. Most humans think that being
a host to a parasite is bad, therefore, it is. Most people don't think they
want to be a bugs host, and that bugs are bad, therefore, it is. Therefore,
from the human perspective (the one that counts if you ever want to do
anything) bugs are bad. QED. From the bugs perspective (if you happen to
be a bug) then humans are hosts, and should be used as such, they serve no
higher purpose. I'll believe that bugs are good, only when I am possessed
by an insect spirit. BTW: if cows could/did think, they'd probably think
humans were assholes, since we tend to raise them to slaughter them. I'm
not a cow, so I think that what I'm doing is ok.

About your "fetus as paratsite" bit. Yes, the human fetus is a parasite.
Yes, it can cause problems for the host (mother). However, sometimes for
the good of the species, you need to be a host, and since this "parasitic
invasion" rarely causes the death of the host, then you can't really call it
bad, can you? Not every parasite is malevolent. Look in nature.

To put my last words on objective moral reletavism: It's bullshit.


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 123
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:08:23 -0600
>> >And how do you think cows view us?
>> As evil. But screw 'em. I need to eat. And if you think that I'm going to
>> feel any sympathy for the bugs because of that, your wrong. The only
>> perspective that matters to me is _mine_. Good/evil only matters from the
>> human perspective, since that is the only one I can percieve. If your going
>> to try and say "but the bugs think their being good" thats great. They
>> think they're doing things fine, people don't. If you think that that makes
>> it ok, then do me a favor and send me your first born child. I sacrifice
>> the children of people who make this arguement, and I think it's ok, and
>> that makes me good, so it must be all right, correct?
>
>Since when is sacrificing any life-form a matter of survival. Eating
>an organism is one thing sacrificing it is another. Now if you would
>like to eat my first born child, more power to you. But hell, at one
>time man did sacrifice living organisms, wait a minute they still do.
But I think it's good to do that. It stops objective moral reletavists (who
are so in the wrong) from breeding. That's good, IMO, and therefore, from
your own arguements, you should help me to what I think is good, or at
least, not impede me.

[snipped lots of objective moral relativist bullshit]

Read my other post. And Sedah, go take a good philosophy course.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 124
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:56:49 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:

> To put my last words on objective moral reletavism: It's bullshit.

It's only bullshit because we live in a world and society where
it's not required to comprehend certain facets of our society. Were we
to ever come into contact with an alien race (which I'm fairly sure the
bugs could classify as ;) ), moral relativism is the *only* way we can
accurately look at these kinds of situations. Without being able to put
yourself in the other guys' shoes for a second and say, "hey, they're not
*trying* to be evil, that particularly offensive behavior is merely part
of their life/society," we are saddled with mutual ignorance and
protracted violence against one another.
I personally think "evil" and "good" are stupid concepts purely
because they *are* so meaningless. Instead of examining morals, one
should examine motivations. Instead of simply saying, "they're evil and
must be destroyed," one should say, "*why* are they at odds with us and
*how* can we change it?" If it cannot be changed, then by all
means, do everything necessary to protect yourself, but do it on a
practical rather than moral standing. Anything else is ignorance.

Marc
Message no. 125
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:36:12 -0600
>
>
>On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Mike Broadwater wrote:
>
>> To put my last words on objective moral reletavism: It's bullshit.
>
> It's only bullshit because we live in a world and society where
>it's not required to comprehend certain facets of our society.

No, an objectivist view to moral relativism is only BS because it creates a
state where you cannot take definate action in any direction, because that
would cause you to be evil in some view. If/when the human race meets an
alien one, and if they decide to use us for food, and we go, "hey, they're
only being them. Can't blame them for that, can we?" then we have decided
that their view is the correct one. Both views cannot be right. Sorry.
thats how it goes.

But you are right on a few things (IMO) If you view that what whatever is
being done not out of a sense of evil (like the bugs) but out of a need for
exsistance, then you must make the steps necessary to protect yourself.
However, that's a very enlightened view, and not what was being discussed.
It was whether the bugs were evil. And from a human, moral view, they are.
>From a bug, moral view, they're not. You can't reconsile the two.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 126
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:43:13 -0500
On Mar 18, 1996 08:05:42, 'neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike
Broadwater)' wrote:


>About your "fetus as paratsite" bit. Yes, the human fetus is a parasite.
>Yes, it can cause problems for the host (mother). However, sometimes for
>the good of the species, you need to be a host, and since this "parasitic
>invasion" rarely causes the death of the host, then you can't really call
it
>bad, can you? Not every parasite is malevolent. Look in nature.

Actually, this is nit-picky, but every PARSITE is malevolent, there are
mutualistic and (neutralistic, I forgot the term) creatures, like the
bacteria living in our and cow stomachs, those birds that pick the
crocodile's teeth (both mutualistic, IOW ++, not +-), and barnacles on a
whale (neutral, barnacle gets a right, whale has no effect).

>To put my last words on objective moral reletavism: It's bullshit.

Right on brother Mike!!

>Mike Broadwater
>http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
>"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
>duct tape to make them stop."
--
-Lord Tallion <Tal Kedem>
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tkedem@********.hchs.hunter.cuny.edu -
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 127
From: "Meredith L. Patterson" <ST5F2@******.UH.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:19:43 -0600 (CST)
>No, an objectivist view to moral relativism is only BS because it creates a
>state where you cannot take definate action in any direction, because that
>would cause you to be evil in some view.

Whoah, syntax correction time, Mike! The Objectivist view *of* moral relativism
is *definitely* that it's bullshit. The Objectivist view of whether insect
spirits are evil? "They're trying to kill me. I value my life, therefore I'm
going to ace 'em."

Regards,
Meredith L. Patterson, card-carrying Objectivist

\-,_ . ,-----, . _,-/
, \ ~-, /|\ / , | , \ /|\ ,-~ / ,
_)\ | `\ ((|)) / - * - \ ((|)) /' | /(_
/, \_,/ \ `\ |M|`------' ' | ` `------|M| /' / \,_/ .\
`-, ,\ | \ |M| |M| / | /, ,-'
|G,/ / ,-, | | |M| "Churches and dictators, |M| | | ,-, \ \ 3|
_\_,/_ \ \|-, | |M| Politics and papers, |M| | ,-|/ / ,_\,_/_
(_ ,__` | `\ | |M| Everything crumbles |M| | /' | __, _)
~--._~-;' \| |M| Sooner or later |M| |/ `;-~_.--~
__/ / | |M| But love..." |M| | \ \__
'',-,' |M| --Elton John |M| `,-,``
((|)) _________/oOo\________/~~~~~~~\_______/oOo\__________ ((|))
|||_/ email: st5f2@******.uh.edu \_|||
//|\\ Meredith L. Patterson * #9511-033 //|\\
|||||||-----------------------------------------------------|||||||
Message no. 128
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:27:37 +0000 (GMT)
People complained when my sig broke the 10 line barrier.
I like it, but you'll probably get moaned at a lot with one that size....

|
| \-,_ . ,-----, . _,-/
| , \ ~-, /|\ / , | , \ /|\ ,-~ / ,
| _)\ | `\ ((|)) / - * - \ ((|)) /' | /(_
| /, \_,/ \ `\ |M|`------' ' | ` `------|M| /' / \,_/ .\
| `-, ,\ | \ |M| |M| / | /, ,-'
| |G,/ / ,-, | | |M| "Churches and dictators, |M| | | ,-, \ \ 3|
| _\_,/_ \ \|-, | |M| Politics and papers, |M| | ,-|/ / ,_\,_/_
| (_ ,__` | `\ | |M| Everything crumbles |M| | /' | __, _)
| ~--._~-;' \| |M| Sooner or later |M| |/ `;-~_.--~
| __/ / | |M| But love..." |M| | \ \__
| '',-,' |M| --Elton John |M| `,-,``
| ((|)) _________/oOo\________/~~~~~~~\_______/oOo\__________ ((|))
| |||_/ email: st5f2@******.uh.edu \_|||
| //|\\ Meredith L. Patterson * #9511-033 //|\\
| |||||||-----------------------------------------------------|||||||
|
|


--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 129
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:05:07 +1030
>Actually, this is nit-picky, but every PARSITE is malevolent, there are
>mutualistic and (neutralistic, I forgot the term) creatures, like the
>bacteria living in our and cow stomachs, those birds that pick the
>crocodile's teeth (both mutualistic, IOW ++, not +-), and barnacles on a
>whale (neutral, barnacle gets a right, whale has no effect).

parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.

What's the diff? The length of exposure... disease => parasite =>
symbiote. Parasites are NOT malevolent.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 130
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 20:05:30 +1030
>>> To put my last words on objective moral reletavism: It's bullshit.
>>
>> It's only bullshit because we live in a world and society where
>>it's not required to comprehend certain facets of our society.
>
>No, an objectivist view to moral relativism is only BS because it creates a
>state where you cannot take definate action in any direction, because that
>would cause you to be evil in some view. If/when the human race meets an
>alien one, and if they decide to use us for food, and we go, "hey, they're
>only being them. Can't blame them for that, can we?" then we have decided
>that their view is the correct one. Both views cannot be right. Sorry.
>thats how it goes.

No, no, no... objectivist moral relativism (besides being a contradiction
in terms) denies the concepts of good and evil...

And two ways of looking at things can both be right. You can't blame them
for using us as hosts if they have to. So what? Why bother with blame?
Just kill them.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realizedthat a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent infinding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 131
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:30:43 -0600
>>No, an objectivist view to moral relativism is only BS because it creates a
>>state where you cannot take definate action in any direction, because that
>>would cause you to be evil in some view.
>
>Whoah, syntax correction time, Mike! The Objectivist view *of* moral relativism
>is *definitely* that it's bullshit. The Objectivist view of whether insect
>spirits are evil? "They're trying to kill me. I value my life, therefore I'm
>going to ace 'em."
>
>Regards,
>Meredith L. Patterson, card-carrying Objectivist
Don't you hate it when you get objective and subjective mixed up? :) I do.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 132
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:34:48 -0600
>>Actually, this is nit-picky, but every PARSITE is malevolent, there are
>>mutualistic and (neutralistic, I forgot the term) creatures, like the
>>bacteria living in our and cow stomachs, those birds that pick the
>>crocodile's teeth (both mutualistic, IOW ++, not +-), and barnacles on a
>>whale (neutral, barnacle gets a right, whale has no effect).
>
>parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
>disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
>symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.
>
>What's the diff? The length of exposure... disease => parasite =>
>symbiote. Parasites are NOT malevolent.
I'm sorry, that's wrong.

Tape worm: parasite: you get sick.
Leech: parasite: you can lose blood and get sick (and they're just really
icky :)

A parasite is an organism that lives off a host, and the host gets no
benefit. A disease is a microorganism. A symbiote is something that lives
on something else, and both organisms get a benefit from the relationship.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 133
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 23:30:07 +1030
>Tape worm: parasite: you get sick.
>Leech: parasite: you can lose blood and get sick (and they're just really

Neither tape worms or leechs are parasites... they are parasitic in their
eating methods, but they are NOT parasites.

True parasites need living hosts, and will not destroy their hosts.

>A parasite is an organism that lives off a host, and the host gets no
>benefit. A disease is a microorganism. A symbiote is something that lives
>on something else, and both organisms get a benefit from the relationship.

The key point missing is that with a parasite, the host will not be hurt
either... a "parasite" like a leech or a tapeworm is really vampiric in
nature, not parasitic.

Most such creatures (as far as humans are concerned) are
micro-organisms... diseases were just a handy example, okay.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 134
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:45:01 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> And two ways of looking at things can both be right. You can't blame them
> for using us as hosts if they have to. So what? Why bother with blame?
> Just kill them.

PRE-cisely. Why does something have to be called 'evil' before it's seen
as a threat?

Deirdre M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | Marizhavashti Kali
"Whose religion is this?" "It's not a religion, it's a cult."
"Whose cult
is this?" "It's Hubbard's cult, baby." "Who's Hubbard?"
"Hubbard's dead,
baby. Hubbard's dead." -Meme-
Message no. 135
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:44:42 EST
> > Life by definition needs an
> >exterior source for energy, which in turn is needed to reproduce. If
> >you can name one organism that requires no exterior form of energy to
> >survive please do so. Your response is typical of the modern
> >homo(sampien)-centric attitude.
>
> As a point, there's no need for this energy to come from living things...
> with modern technology, we _could_ subsist on synthesied food.
Yeah, if you want to be malnourished sure and possibly get cancer. Most sythetics are
meant
to be supplements to a balanced diet. This is why many vegetarians
often fall ill due to malnutrition or overdose. BTW check out the
incrediants on these so called "synthetics" many of them still
contain plant matter.

---Sedah Drol
Message no. 136
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:13:18 PST
>parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
>disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
>symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.

Actually, a parasite hurts you. may not be much, but it does.

Wen something lives in/on you, and you don't have much efect, thats
uhh... Never mind.


--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only Weretiger PhysAd

no website

I leave you with one parting word of wisdom:Notch
Message no. 137
From: "Buckmaster, Gary" <gbuckmaster@*********.com>
Subject: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 11:45:05 PST
Hey, has anyone done any experimentation with Austrailian Animal
Totems??? There are some really nifty creatures out there and some
might make really great totems. Obviously Wombats are cool no matter
what simply because of the name, but they might be a great totem, as
might some others. After all, don't the Aboriginees (sp??) practice
magic similar to that of the NANs?? What do you all think??
Message no. 138
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:25:42 EST
Mike Broadwater wrote:
> Tape worm: parasite: you get sick.
> Leech: parasite: you can lose blood and get sick (and they're just really
> icky :)
>
> A parasite is an organism that lives off a host, and the host gets no
> benefit. A disease is a microorganism. A symbiote is something that lives
> on something else, and both organisms get a benefit from the relationship.


Wrong!! A symbiote by definition is an organism (size and Kingdom
doesn't matter) that lives on/in another organism known as a host.
The relationship between the symbiote and host can be either mutualistic
(both species either benifit or harmed), nuetral (neither species
befits nor harmed), parasitic (the symbiote benifits while the host does not and
is usually but not always harmed by the relationship).

Examples
Mutualistic: Clown fish and sea anenome, E-coli baccilus and
homo-sapiens, lichen (yes the plant-form called lichen is acually two
organisms that share in a mutuallistic benificial symbiosis.

Parasitic: No one seems to be confuse on this one. BTW many but not
all diseases are a result of this type of relationship. Some
diseases are genetic mutations.

Neutrallistic: I really can't think of any off the top of my head
right now, but I know there are some, really I am not lying.

For more information, those of you who are attending a Universtity
may wish to take a Biology course.
Message no. 139
From: neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:32:41 -0600
>Wrong!! A symbiote by definition is an organism (size and Kingdom
>doesn't matter) that lives on/in another organism known as a host.
>The relationship between the symbiote and host can be either mutualistic
>(both species either benifit or harmed), nuetral (neither species
>befits nor harmed), parasitic (the symbiote benifits while the host does
not and
>is usually but not always harmed by the relationship).

>Neutrallistic: I really can't think of any off the top of my head
>right now, but I know there are some, really I am not lying.

Don't worry, we believe you. :)
While I don't give a damn about the definition of a symbiotic
relationship(that wasn't what I was talking about) or a disease (that wasn't
what I was talking about either) I am glad to see somebody else say that
parasitic means the host gets nothing out of it.

And a lot of people at school, oddly enough, don't have the
time/money/energy to waste on a class outside their major (Just what every
EE needs, biology!)


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."
Message no. 140
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:53:52 EST
> >Tape worm: parasite: you get sick.
> >Leech: parasite: you can lose blood and get sick (and they're just really
> Neither tape worms or leechs are parasites... they are parasitic in their
> eating methods, but they are NOT parasites.
> True parasites need living hosts, and will not destroy their hosts.

> The key point missing is that with a parasite, the host will not be hurt
> either... a "parasite" like a leech or a tapeworm is really vampiric in
> nature, not parasitic.
I don't know where you are getting your information, but tapeworms
and leaches are parasites. Also many parasites do hurt their host
although this may kill the host, but as long as the parasite is able
to reproduce it doesn't matter.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 141
From: Benjamin <benjamin@*****.com>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:58:38 PST
>Neutrallistic: I really can't think of any off the top of my head
>right now, but I know there are some, really I am not lying.

Isn't this "One being benifits, and the other couldn't care less"?

Example of this:Some birds riding on the tusk of an elephant.


--
Shiftboy (aka Benjamin Kercheval)
benjamin@*****.com (NOT whatever happenes to be in the From: line today)

Probably the world's only Weretiger PhysAd

no website

I leave you with one parting word of wisdom:Tactical
Message no. 142
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:19:05 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> >Actually, this is nit-picky, but every PARSITE is malevolent, there are
> >mutualistic and (neutralistic, I forgot the term) creatures, like the
> >bacteria living in our and cow stomachs, those birds that pick the
> >crocodile's teeth (both mutualistic, IOW ++, not +-), and barnacles on a
> >whale (neutral, barnacle gets a right, whale has no effect).
>
> parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
> disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
> symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.
>
> What's the diff? The length of exposure... disease => parasite =>
> symbiote. Parasites are NOT malevolent.
>
>
Is a leech a disease? How about a mesquieto? Both can kill you,
through the spread of maleria, etc. as well as boold loss (Takes a lot
but can still happen).

Nutcracker
Message no. 143
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:33:50 +0000 (GMT)
|Is a leech a disease? How about a mesquieto? Both can kill you,
|through the spread of maleria, etc. as well as boold loss (Takes a lot
|but can still happen).
|
|Nutcracker
|

Ahhh, but the leach or mosquito are *not* the disease.
Malaria is an ameboid(sp?) micro-organism spread by the above.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 144
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:17:39 PST
---------------Original Message---------------
parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.

What's the diff? The length of exposure... disease => parasite =>
symbiote. Parasites are NOT malevolent.

| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/



----------End of Original Message----------
Actually, I think there is a big difference between a parasite and a symbiote. The
parasite causes harm to the host and the symbiote is beneficial to the host.

Patrick
Message no. 145
From: GLENN.ROBERTSON@***.Edu
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:12:13 -0700 (MST)
> Actually, a parasite hurts you. may not be much, but it does.
>
> Wen something lives in/on you, and you don't have much efect, thats
> uhh... Never mind.
Thats called a wife! JUST KIDDING!!! :)
That out of the way, what about all of the normal flora and fauna that
grow in and on the human body? There is a multitude of critters in the
gut and on the skin. You don't get benefits from all of the critters.
They don't always hurt you either.


Glenn Robertson ___
Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
A.K.A. Miniature Livestock Manager |nasty|
|virus|
"My Homework Ate My Dog!!" \***/
[-]
/^+*+-_
_/ / # \ \__
/ \ \_ \
| \
/
CATCH IT!! ITS GROOVY!!
Message no. 146
From: Super Grover <taleask@***.ucalgary.ca>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:09:38 -0700 (MST)
>
> > >Actually, this is nit-picky, but every PARSITE is malevolent, there are
> > >mutualistic and (neutralistic, I forgot the term) creatures, like the
> > >bacteria living in our and cow stomachs, those birds that pick the
> > >crocodile's teeth (both mutualistic, IOW ++, not +-), and barnacles on a
> > >whale (neutral, barnacle gets a right, whale has no effect).
> >
> > parasite: bad. Lives off you. You get nothing out of it.
> > disease: bad. Lives off you. You get sick out of it.
> > symbiote: good. Lives off you. You get something out of it.
> >
> > What's the diff? The length of exposure... disease => parasite =>
> > symbiote. Parasites are NOT malevolent.

a symbiote is not a parasite, and you _are_ affected negatively by a
parasite. a parasite _is_ malevolent. a disease is not an organism., a
disease is a condition. E.coli lives in your stomach. Both you and the E.
coli benefit from this, in fact, we need the bacteria there, one might
say thet we live off the E. coli.

BTW, I think the word is commensualism ( I could be wrong) not
neutralistic. It means ( I think) that one organism produces somthing
that the other organism needs for life, but is not affected in any way by
the second organism (either that or the word is synergism, i can't quite
remember).


Anyways, refering back to what the post was about orginally, I use insect
totems in my game. I am Native, and in many of my peoples stories, the
insects have come to our aid (ant and fly, just to name a couple) The way
I incorporate the official FASA view is by making these insect spirits
and shamans toxic. What with the media attention Bug City has received,
the non-toxic insect shamans are _really_, _really_ reluctant to rear
their heads for fear of mistaken identities, although I have had a few
characters run a mantis, and ant totems.


Super Grover
Message no. 147
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 17:39:12 +1030
>Yeah, if you want to be malnourished sure and possibly get cancer. Most
>sythetics are meant
>to be supplements to a balanced diet. This is why many vegetarians
>often fall ill due to malnutrition or overdose. BTW check out the
>incrediants on these so called "synthetics" many of them still
>contain plant matter.

I did not say that it was done... it's not. It's currently prohibitively
expensive to make a nutritionally balanced diet synthetically. It is,
however, possible. That's my point.


--
* *
/_\ "A friend is someone who likes the same TV programs you do" /_\
{~._.~} "Eternal nothingness is fine if you happen {~._.~}
( Y ) to be dressed for it." -- Woody Allen ( Y )
()~*~() Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au ()~*~()
(_)-(_) (_)-(_)
Message no. 148
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:59:23 +0100
Marizhavashti Kali said on 19 Mar 96...

> PRE-cisely. Why does something have to be called 'evil' before it's seen
> as a threat?

Because it makes killing them easier -- if you tell people that "those
[insert subject here] are evil" they'll kill them ore easily than if ou
tell them "Yeah sure, they want to kill you, but we should first look at
it from their POV, and only then decide whether it's right to kill them
too."

--
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Message no. 149
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:02:53 +0000 (GMT)
|
|Marizhavashti Kali said on 19 Mar 96...
|
|> PRE-cisely. Why does something have to be called 'evil' before it's seen
|> as a threat?
|
|Because it makes killing them easier -- if you tell people that "those
|[insert subject here] are evil" they'll kill them ore easily than if ou
|tell them "Yeah sure, they want to kill you, but we should first look at
|it from their POV, and only then decide whether it's right to kill them
|too."

That's what the Nazis did with the Jews.
Those evil Jews are stealing and hoarding *your* money/jobs/children/whatever.

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
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Message no. 150
From: Kenneth Horner <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:05:00 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, A Halliwell wrote:

> |Is a leech a disease? How about a mesquieto? Both can kill you,
> |through the spread of maleria, etc. as well as boold loss (Takes a lot
> |but can still happen).
> |
> |Nutcracker
> |
>
> Ahhh, but the leach or mosquito are *not* the disease.
> Malaria is an ameboid(sp?) micro-organism spread by the above.
> --
That was the point I was trying to get across, but my mind hasn't been
functioning correctly since finals started.
Message no. 151
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:30:35 EST
> >Neutrallistic: I really can't think of any off the top of my head
> >right now, but I know there are some, really I am not lying.
>
> Isn't this "One being benifits, and the other couldn't care less"?
>
> Example of this:Some birds riding on the tusk of an elephant.

Actually I think you are correct on that one, but if the birds remove
any pests while they are on the tusks, then it would be mutuallistic.
As long as all they get is a ride then yeah it should be
neutralistic. I still need to look this one up in one of my Biology
texts.
---Sedah Drol
Message no. 152
From: "Sedah Drol" <CCRODRIG@****.indstate.edu>
Subject: Re: New Totem
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:50:40 EST
> > Actually, a parasite hurts you. may not be much, but it does.
> >
> > Wen something lives in/on you, and you don't have much efect, thats
> > uhh... Never mind.
> Thats called a wife! JUST KIDDING!!! :)

A wife is a parasite and hell so are children. They often seem to be
the cause of several severe medical conditions (migraines,
heartattacks, strokes, sever mental breakdown, and malnutrition due
to divorce and them taking everything. ;)
You see since I am not married and my girlfriend is not here to read
this over my shoulder I can safely say this. All I have to worry
about is the flames from the list which I can easily just move my
pointer over the delete button and erase those.:)
> That out of the way, what about all of the normal flora and fauna that
> grow in and on the human body? There is a multitude of critters in the
> gut and on the skin. You don't get benefits from all of the critters.
> They don't always hurt you either.
Those I believe would be neutralisticly sybiotic organisms.
---Sedah Drol


> Glenn Robertson ___
> Microbiologist Extraordinaire /***\
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> |virus|
> "My Homework Ate My Dog!!" \***/
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> /^+*+-_
> _/ / # \ \__
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> CATCH IT!! ITS GROOVY!!
>
>
>

Further Reading

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