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Message no. 1
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:49:40 -0700
One of my players come up with this totem he wants to use for a new
character he's making. Please tell me what you all think of it, is it too
powerful, too cheesy, too stupid, or if it already exists somewhere. I
read it through a few times, and thought is was alright. Any comments or
criticism is welcome.


*Ferret*

_Characteristics_: Ferret is shy and arrogant. Often gets into
situations that may be bigger than he can handle just to see if he can
use trickery to get out. Ferret will usually only fight if cornered or to
help friends.
Ferret often has few friends as a result of his shy, arrogant, and
risky nature.
Ferret is proud and considers what others think of him very
important. Ferret will usually brag to others.
As a result of having few friends, Ferret considers his friends
forst and will help them at all costs.
Ferret gets bored easily and always needs something to do. He will
always be up to something, most of the time something no good.

_Favored Environment_: Anywhere with many hiding places.

_Advantages_: +2 dice for illusion,healing,manipulation spells

_Disadvantages_: Ferret will usually attempt to take cover in combat. As
a result, if he is attacked, he will spend as much time as necessary to
seek cover and will not fight in the open unless a Willpower check is
made with a difficulty of 5.
Also considering Ferrets close bond to friends, if in combat with
friends and a friend is hurt, Ferret must make a Willpower check with a
difficulty equal to the boxes of damage the friend has taken to attack an
enemy. If failed, Ferret must attempt to heal the injured friend.
Most importantly if Ferret is insulted he must make a Willpower
check with a difficulty of 5 or he will confront his insulter instead of
ignoring him. A further Willpower check must be made (difficulty 6) or
Ferret will insult back. If combat occurs, Ferret might go into cover as
above.


-----------------------------------------------------------
Jason Ustica | usticaj@****.com | Lancaster, CA
-----------------------------------------------------------
*Sorry, no geek code, no stupid quotes, no lame web sites*
Message no. 2
From: "Brian A. Stewart" <bstewart@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:40:57 -0700
Jason writes:

>One of my players come up with this totem he wants to use for a new
>character he's making. Please tell me what you all think of it, is it too
>powerful, too cheesy, too stupid, or if it already exists somewhere. I
>read it through a few times, and thought is was alright. Any comments or
>criticism is welcome.
>
>
>*Ferret*
>
>_Characteristics_: Ferret is shy and arrogant. Often gets into
>situations that may be bigger than he can handle just to see if he can
>use trickery to get out. Ferret will usually only fight if cornered or to
>help friends.
> Ferret often has few friends as a result of his shy, arrogant, and
>risky nature.
> Ferret is proud and considers what others think of him very
>important. Ferret will usually brag to others.
> As a result of having few friends, Ferret considers his friends
>forst and will help them at all costs.
> Ferret gets bored easily and always needs something to do. He will
>always be up to something, most of the time something no good.
>
>_Favored Environment_: Anywhere with many hiding places.
>
>_Advantages_: +2 dice for illusion,healing,manipulation spells
>
>_Disadvantages_: Ferret will usually attempt to take cover in combat. As
>a result, if he is attacked, he will spend as much time as necessary to
>seek cover and will not fight in the open unless a Willpower check is
>made with a difficulty of 5.
> Also considering Ferrets close bond to friends, if in combat with
>friends and a friend is hurt, Ferret must make a Willpower check with a
>difficulty equal to the boxes of damage the friend has taken to attack an
>enemy. If failed, Ferret must attempt to heal the injured friend.
> Most importantly if Ferret is insulted he must make a Willpower
>check with a difficulty of 5 or he will confront his insulter instead of
>ignoring him. A further Willpower check must be made (difficulty 6) or
>Ferret will insult back. If combat occurs, Ferret might go into cover as
>above.
>

Sounds similar, but not exactly, to Racoon. Healing seems odd to me, if
close bonds were enough to evoke healing then Dog would be a healer. I
would recommend thinking very carefully about Healing, particularly with
such a versatle area as manipulation. You may consider limiting
minipulation if you really want Healing.

I also noted no bonus for conjuring. I like that, particularly with the
three sorcery catagories having a bonus. What about requiring sleight of
hand and/or stealth as skills shamen of Ferret must have, perhaps granting
them a +1 or +2 bonus.

Best of luck. Enjoy.
Brian
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Next on Entertaining Today/Tomarrow?Tosometimes:
The movie everyone has been waiting for...
Without a Clue in Tucson
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Staring that blondest of blonds, Nurse Wratchet, with co-stars
I'll Never Tell and Dirty Little Secret.

Stay Tuned for the chill, next, after these messages.
**************************************************************************
"Nurse Wratchet" aka bstewart@***.uug.arizona.edu
**************************************************************************
Message no. 3
From: Jeff Norrell <norrell@*******.ME.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 14:46:36 +0600
> Jason writes:
>
> >*Ferret*
> >
> > >>Stuff on ferret totem<<
> >
>

I do have one suggestion, and this comes from (albeit limited) observation
of a couple of ferrets kept as pets by friends.

Both had the somtimes cute, generally annoying, habit of hiding stuff. I suppose,
hence the name. At any rate, how about some kind of modification or trait of the
shaman stashing stuff away all over the place...

Jeff Norrell
University of Texas at Austin
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Message no. 4
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:37:35 -0700
Are you basing this on the European Ferret (_Mustela putorius furo_),
or on the North American Black-footed Ferret (_Mustela nigripes_)? There's
a big difference, and indeed a good possibility that the Black Footed may
be extinct in the time of Shadowrun. And are you basing it on supposed
characteristics of real ferrets, or on some mythology regarding ferrets,
and if the latter, from what culture?
Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a Totem...

ohwell, just some thoughts from me...

-Eve
Message no. 5
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:29:14 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-25 14:51:26 EDT, you write:

>
>One of my players come up with this totem he wants to use for a new
>character he's making. Please tell me what you all think of it, is it too
>powerful, too cheesy, too stupid, or if it already exists somewhere. I
>read it through a few times, and thought is was alright. Any comments or
>criticism is welcome.
>
>
>*Ferret*
>
>_Characteristics_: Ferret is shy and arrogant. Often gets into
>situations that may be bigger than he can handle just to see if he can
>use trickery to get out. Ferret will usually only fight if cornered or to
>help friends.
> Ferret often has few friends as a result of his shy, arrogant, and
>risky nature.
> Ferret is proud and considers what others think of him very
>important. Ferret will usually brag to others.
> As a result of having few friends, Ferret considers his friends
>forst and will help them at all costs.
> Ferret gets bored easily and always needs something to do. He will
>always be up to something, most of the time something no good.
>
>_Favored Environment_: Anywhere with many hiding places.
>
>_Advantages_: +2 dice for illusion,healing,manipulation spells
>
>_Disadvantages_: Ferret will usually attempt to take cover in combat. As
>a result, if he is attacked, he will spend as much time as necessary to
>seek cover and will not fight in the open unless a Willpower check is
>made with a difficulty of 5.
> Also considering Ferrets close bond to friends, if in combat with
>friends and a friend is hurt, Ferret must make a Willpower check with a
>difficulty equal to the boxes of damage the friend has taken to attack an
>enemy. If failed, Ferret must attempt to heal the injured friend.
> Most importantly if Ferret is insulted he must make a Willpower
>check with a difficulty of 5 or he will confront his insulter instead of
>ignoring him. A further Willpower check must be made (difficulty 6) or
>Ferret will insult back. If combat occurs, Ferret might go into cover as
>above.
>
>

this feret totem sounds close to, if not exactly like the raccoon. plus fav.
enviro. is to general it's either city, plains, etc. like the idea though.
Message no. 6
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:30:00 -0700
On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:

> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a Totem...
>
Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...

%}

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 7
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 01:13:14 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-25 23:31:35 EDT, you write:

>
>On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
>
>> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
>> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
>> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a Totem...
>>
>Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...

umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are domesticated.
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:28:38 +0930
Nika Nikolic wrote:
> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>
> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are domesticated.

Sorry, Nika, you obviously do not own a cat. Domesticated animals are kept
by people for reasons of their own. Cats are not kept. If anything, cats do
the keeping.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 21:16:17 GMT
> *Ferret*
> _Advantages_: +2 dice for illusion,healing,manipulation spells

Three +2s is too many. Lose Health spell bonus.

> _Disadvantages_: Ferret will usually attempt to take cover in combat. As
> a result, if he is attacked, he will spend as much time as necessary to
> seek cover and will not fight in the open unless a Willpower check is
> made with a difficulty of 5.
> Also considering Ferrets close bond to friends, if in combat with
> friends and a friend is hurt, Ferret must make a Willpower check with a
> difficulty equal to the boxes of damage the friend has taken to attack an
> enemy. If failed, Ferret must attempt to heal the injured friend.

Change "heal" to "get him out of danger" since we lost the +2 to
Health
spells.

> Most importantly if Ferret is insulted he must make a Willpower
> check with a difficulty of 5 or he will confront his insulter instead of
> ignoring him. A further Willpower check must be made (difficulty 6) or
> Ferret will insult back. If combat occurs, Ferret might go into cover as
> above.

I'd add a -1 die on Combat spells.

Otherwise, not too bad, although I think there's a big list of extra totems
around somewhere: this might be duplicating it.

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:49:00 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:

> In a message dated 95-07-25 23:31:35 EDT, you write:
>
> >
> >On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> >
> >> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
> >> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
> >> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a Totem...
> >>
> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>
> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are domesticated.

Ha! I say it again, HA! I've grown up with cats, and have two
currently, and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT CATS ARE NOT DOMESTICATED! In
fact, I think that the real truth of the matter is that cats have
domesticated us.

Yes master, I'll refill your food bowl now...

%}

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast


PS No, I'm not on earth. I'm in Humboldt County. Its much nicer here.
Message no. 11
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:59:30 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-26 06:00:25 EDT, you write:

>Mika Nikolic wrote:
>> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>>
>> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
>domesticated.
>
>Sorry, Mika, you obviously do not own a cat. Domesticated animals are kept
>by people for reasons of their own. Cats are not kept. If anything, cats do
>the keeping.

actually i keep three cats at my house and there preety domesticated. :>)
Message no. 12
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:05:26 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-26 15:17:35 EDT, you write:

>On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 95-07-25 23:31:35 EDT, you write:
>>
>> >
>> >On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
>> >
>> >> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
>> >> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
>> >> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a
Totem...
>> >>
>> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>>
>> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
>domesticated.
>
>Ha! I say it again, HA! I've grown up with cats, and have two
>currently, and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT CATS ARE NOT DOMESTICATED! In
>fact, I think that the real truth of the matter is that cats have
>domesticated us.
>
>Yes master, I'll refill your food bowl now...
>
>%}
>
>Edmund Metheny
>Arcata, California
><emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
><EMGumby@***.COM>
>
>Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
>somewhere on the Lost Coast
>
>
>PS No, I'm not on earth. I'm in Humboldt County. Its much nicer here.

well my cats don't rule my life i rule thier's they are domesticated.
Message no. 13
From: Stephanos Piperoglou <sneakabout@**********.HOL.GR>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 02:14:57 +0300
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:

> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are domesticated.

Strange, mine aren't, even after 8 years... :-)
_________________________ ______________________________
______/ Stephanos J. Piperoglou \____/ sneakabout@**********.hol.gr \______
Aspiring Linux hacker, computer nut, RP gamemaster, sci-fi fan, High School
student, amateur writer, forensics champion, A-level candidate, math adept,
science geek, rave fan, people person, pleasantly plump, or in other words:
GCS/S/M/L/PA d- s++:++ a16 C++++ UL++>++++ P+ L+++>++++ E- W++ N+ K w--- O-
M+ !V PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP++ t+ 5++ X+ R+++ tv b++ DI? D+ G++ e->++++ h! r y?

...QED
Message no. 14
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:32:00 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:

> In a message dated 95-07-26 15:17:35 EDT, you write:
>
> >On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:
> >
> >> In a message dated 95-07-25 23:31:35 EDT, you write:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe not so
> >> >> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have been
> >> >> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a
> Totem...
> >> >>
> >> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
> >>
> >> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
> >domesticated.
> >
> >Ha! I say it again, HA! I've grown up with cats, and have two
> >currently, and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT CATS ARE NOT DOMESTICATED! In
> >fact, I think that the real truth of the matter is that cats have
> >domesticated us.
> >
> >Yes master, I'll refill your food bowl now...
> >
> >%}
> >
> >Edmund Metheny
> >Arcata, California
> ><emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
> ><EMGumby@***.COM>
> >
> >Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
> >somewhere on the Lost Coast
> >
> >
> >PS No, I'm not on earth. I'm in Humboldt County. Its much nicer here.
>
> well my cats don't rule my life i rule thier's they are domesticated.

You mean that you cats always sleep where you want them to, never claw up
things that you like, never bring in "treats" for you to eat, never huck
hairballs in inconvenient locations, and don't yowl or run around the
bedroom when you are trying to sleep?

Look for a zipper down the back, I think you have gerbils in cat suits.

%}

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 15
From: "Stephen M. Bugge" <bugge@********.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:34:11 -0700
Not to be an ass or anything but I'm getting a little tired of reading
this debate as to how domesticated cat's are. <yeah my severe allergy to
cat hair probably has biased my opinion>

On the ferret, hey I'm always for adding new things to the existing
structure of the game, <that which does not evlove is doomed to become
boring> and I really liked the suggestion of making these guys real
Kleptos, <I can see it now, meeting with a Johnson, so do you want
the...Hey what are you doing with my belt buckle?!> I also don't see how
health fits in to the picture.

*-------------------------------------------*
|Stephen M. Bugge|<bugge@********.edu> |
|President, |<buug@***.com> |
|College GOP @ SU|<75764.240@**********.com>|
*-------------------------------------------*
Message no. 16
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:42:33 -0700
>Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...

Good point...
Message no. 17
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:53:43 -0700
>actually i keep three cats at my house and there preety domesticated. :>)

My cat is about as domesticated as the average SO. (Significant Other) Sure,
she'll cuddle up to you and be friendly, but only as long as you keep the
food bowl filled and the litterbox clean. Otherwise she barfs in your shoes.

Or maybe I've had rather strange SO experiences.
Message no. 18
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:55:18 -0700
>well my cats don't rule my life i rule thier's they are domesticated.

That's what you THINK..
Message no. 19
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:01:59 -0700
>> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are domesticated.


Just another thing, in case anyone has it come up in a game...

Taking a wild cat (such as a tiger) as a cub, and hand-raising it,
bottle-feeding it, etc., does in no way domesticate it. Almost as
soon as they can walk, they start stalking, and pouncing. No-one
teaches them; it is pure instinct. This isn't just propaganda, where
I'm working we are raising a baby tiger and I have had watched this
thing stalk (esp. small children...)

-E
Message no. 20
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:16:20 -0400
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
> Taking a wild cat (such as a tiger) as a cub, and hand-raising it,
> bottle-feeding it, etc., does in no way domesticate it. Almost as
> soon as they can walk, they start stalking, and pouncing. No-one
> teaches them; it is pure instinct. This isn't just propaganda, where
> I'm working we are raising a baby tiger and I have had watched this
> thing stalk (esp. small children...)
> -E

On a side-note, any rules for domesticating? I have no idea how
people did it for the current animals, and have a Shaman who wants to
domesticate a Wolf. Ie, I don't know how one does it in RL, so can't
apply RL knowledge to the RPG.

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 21
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 19:12:21 -0700
>>>>
On a side-note, any rules for domesticating? I have no idea how
people did it for the current animals, and have a Shaman who wants to
domesticate a Wolf. Ie, I don't know how one does it in RL, so can't
apply RL knowledge to the RPG.<<<<

Well, "domesticate" is a different thing than "train". Domesticating
takes generations.

For an average real-life person, you'd have to raise the wolf from a pup,
work with it daily, and probably use a lot of discipline on it (unfortunately).
I'm not saying that this is the only way, but it's the only way we know
of at the moment to get the best results. Even then, you're not going to
end up with a neat-looking, loyal dog; you'll have a wild animal that will
probably not attack you right now. It will be constantly testing you,
difficult to train, and dangerous to others and probably eventually you.
(I'm basing this on the people I have known who have done this.)

In Shadowrun, though, since there is magic and spirits and Shamans and all
kinds of anthropormorphism, for cinematic purposes I'd let the Shaman
have her Totem guide her to a wolf cub who will be her "spirit friend",
let her raise and train the pup and develop a magic bond with it and all
that good stuff. I'd make her spend time with it every day (no running off
on adventures and leaving the wolf at the kennel), have her buy the skill
"Wolf Training/Taming" at 4 at least, and if she does anything to piss it
off (tries to send it to do her fighting for her, takes away its food,
stops it from killing a party member it takes a dislike to) have them make
a Will contest or something to keep it from reverting to wildness.

For true domestication, you catch the wild animal, and restrain it, and
tame it as much as you can, and breed the ones that are the most docile
and tamable. Do this for many many many generations, until basically
you've created a new species adapted to live with humans. The problem is,
in many cases, you've got to fight N-million years of natural selection the
other direction; for wildness, caution, killing instinct, fear of the
unknown, etc.

-Eve
Message no. 22
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@*******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:30:54 -0500
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Alright. Having grown up in northern minnesota where every good redneck
scandanavian had a domesticated wolf, I will say that it's fairly easy.

However, the trick is to get it as a PUPPY. you can't train it u\once
it's grow up in the wild. If you get it as a puppy, and raise it like a
dog, it will group up just fine.

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G++++>$ e++ h r-- y++**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 23
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 22:40:05 -0400
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
<Other Stuff on Shamans and Domestication>
> For true domestication, you catch the wild animal, and restrain it, and
> tame it as much as you can, and breed the ones that are the most docile
> and tamable. Do this for many many many generations, until basically
> you've created a new species adapted to live with humans. The problem is,
> in many cases, you've got to fight N-million years of natural selection the
> other direction; for wildness, caution, killing instinct, fear of the
> unknown, etc.
> -Eve

Thanks! (Who says you can't learn something from an RPG discussion?:)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 24
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 23:43:11 -0400
Dave wrote:

>On a side-note, any rules for domesticating? I have no idea how
>people did it for the current animals, and have a Shaman who wants to
>domesticate a Wolf. Ie, I don't know how one does it in RL, so can't
>apply RL knowledge to the RPG.

Animals were domesticated by selective breeding. The same way you get a
"show" quality dog or cat (please no comments on whether or not cats are
domesticated). It would probably take about 30 - 50 generations to select
the "domesticated" traits and reduce the "wild" traits to a very small
subset
of the populations expressed genome. And I thought my B.S. in genetics would
never be useful in real life....wait is SR real life?

Duke
Message no. 25
From: Duke Diener <DukeDragon@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 23:46:46 -0400
Eve wrote:

> I'd let the Shaman
>have her Totem guide her to a wolf cub who will be her "spirit friend",

This is a good idea but I would probably go along the lines of having the
shaman "tame" a spirit ally.

Duke
Message no. 26
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 21:00:51 -0700
>>> I'd let the Shaman
>have her Totem guide her to a wolf cub who will be her "spirit friend",

This is a good idea but I would probably go along the lines of having the
shaman "tame" a spirit ally.
<<<

Yeah, that works too. I didn't mean "spirit friend" in the sense of having
any spirit powers or anything, just as a metaphysical connotation to
the having of a "tame" wolf, so that not just any Joe on the street can
go out and get one.

-E
Message no. 27
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:55:07 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-26 19:17:58 EDT, you write:

>On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Mika Nikolic wrote:
>
>> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
>domesticated.
>
>Strange, mine aren't, even after 8 years... :-)

mine are after 2 months. :>)
Message no. 28
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:56:29 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-26 19:34:48 EDT, you write:

>
>On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Mika Nikolic wrote:
>
>> In a message dated 95-07-26 15:17:35 EDT, you write:
>>
>> >On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Mika Nikolic wrote:
>> >
>> >> In a message dated 95-07-25 23:31:35 EDT, you write:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Eve Forward wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Some of the things seem a bit odd for ferrets. Maybe
not so
>> >> >> odd for *domesticated* ferrets, though. 'Course, ferrets have
been
>> >> >> domesticated longer than cats, I belive, and Cat is certainly a
>> Totem...
>> >> >>
>> >> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>> >>
>> >> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
>> >domesticated.
>> >
>> >Ha! I say it again, HA! I've grown up with cats, and have two
>> >currently, and I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT CATS ARE NOT DOMESTICATED! In
>> >fact, I think that the real truth of the matter is that cats have
>> >domesticated us.
>> >
>> >Yes master, I'll refill your food bowl now...
>> >
>> >%}
>> >
>> >Edmund Metheny
>> >Arcata, California
>> ><emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
>> ><EMGumby@***.COM>
>> >
>> >Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
>> >somewhere on the Lost Coast
>> >
>> >
>> >PS No, I'm not on earth. I'm in Humboldt County. Its much nicer here.
>>
>> well my cats don't rule my life i rule thier's they are domesticated.
>
>You mean that you cats always sleep where you want them to, never claw up
>things that you like, never bring in "treats" for you to eat, never huck
>hairballs in inconvenient locations, and don't yowl or run around the
>bedroom when you are trying to sleep?

yes they listen to me come when i call sleep where i set it aside for then
and hack their hairballs outside the house. :>)
Message no. 29
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@**.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:37:08 +0000
On Jul 26, 4:59pm, Nika Nikolic wrote:
> Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
> In a message dated 95-07-26 06:00:25 EDT, you write:
>
> >Mika Nikolic wrote:
> >> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
> >>
> >> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
> >domesticated.
> >
> >Sorry, Mika, you obviously do not own a cat. Domesticated animals are kept
> >by people for reasons of their own. Cats are not kept. If anything, cats do
> >the keeping.
>
> actually i keep three cats at my house and there preety domesticated. :>)

Uhm. Those cats are slightly more intelligent then the others. They make you
believe they are domesticaed while they are controlling your mind. Maybe one
day they'll make you beleive you are their owner... :)

Bye, Paolo


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paolo Marcucci
marcucci@**.astro.it
http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/~marcucci/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, a big TV with a hi-fi VCR and a nice
stereo, a full fridge, a microwave, a UNIX system, two phone lines,
a high speed modem, internet access.... and thou."
Message no. 30
From: Dave Woods <spuwdsda@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:50:09 +0100
On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Nika Nikolic wrote:

> >You mean that you cats always sleep where you want them to, never claw up
> >things that you like, never bring in "treats" for you to eat, never
huck
> >hairballs in inconvenient locations, and don't yowl or run around the
> >bedroom when you are trying to sleep?
>
> yes they listen to me come when i call sleep where i set it aside for then
> and hack their hairballs outside the house. :>)
>


Is the word spam, needed at this point?

- David
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:54:24 +0200
>Taking a wild cat (such as a tiger) as a cub, and hand-raising it,
>bottle-feeding it, etc., does in no way domesticate it. Almost as
>soon as they can walk, they start stalking, and pouncing. No-one
>teaches them; it is pure instinct.

I read somewhere that domesticated animals generally have smaller brain
capacities than their wild variants.


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
En ik zeg je weer niet wat ik nu denk dat ik je eigenlijk zeggen wil...
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 32
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:07:00 -0700
On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Dave Stone wrote:

> On a side-note, any rules for domesticating? I have no idea how
> people did it for the current animals, and have a Shaman who wants to
> domesticate a Wolf. Ie, I don't know how one does it in RL, so can't
> apply RL knowledge to the RPG.
>
> Dave
>

So far as I know one does not "domesticate" a single animal. You can
sort of tame one by raising it from birth, but it will only be non-wild
in the sense that it is used to humans. Its still going to act like a
wolf, not a dog. Unfortunately, it is also going to be unable to really
compete and survive well in the wild, as it will have learned how to live
with human beings, not other wolves. Maverick wolves generally have a
poor survival rate in the wild both because they don't know how to hunt
(stalking and pouncing may be instinctive, but getting good at it is
still a matter for quite a bit of practice) and because they don't know
how to socialize with groups of wolves.

If your shaman has wolf as his totem, it ought to tell him to have more
sense. If Wolf wanted his children to be anything but wild and free He
would make them dogs.

IMHO.

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 33
From: "Edmund M. Metheny" <emm1@***.HUMBOLDT.EDU>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:14:00 -0700
On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Gurth wrote:

>
> I read somewhere that domesticated animals generally have smaller brain
> capacities than their wild variants.
>

Its an interesting question, actually. In many cases we no longer have
the exact domesticated species around in the wild anymore to compare. So
the question becomes "Did they get smaller brains because we domesticated
them, or did we domesticate them because they were dumb in the first
place?"
There is also the question of exactly what relationship brain capacity
has on intelligence.

Edmund Metheny
Arcata, California
<emm1@***.humboldt.edu>
<EMGumby@***.COM>

Beyond the Redwood Curtain,
somewhere on the Lost Coast
Message no. 34
From: Nika Nikolic <MNik@***.COM>
Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:31:20 -0400
In a message dated 95-07-27 02:38:38 EDT, you write:

>
>On Jul 26, 4:59pm, Mika Nikolic wrote:
>> Subject: Re: New totem for all to evaluate
>> In a message dated 95-07-26 06:00:25 EDT, you write:
>>
>> >Mika Nikolic wrote:
>> >> >Rumor has it that cats may one day be domesticated ...
>> >>
>> >> umm . . . . . . . . where are you? are you on earth?? cats are
>> >domesticated.
>> >
>> >Sorry, Mika, you obviously do not own a cat. Domesticated animals are
kept
>> >by people for reasons of their own. Cats are not kept. If anything, cats
>do
>> >the keeping.
>>
>> actually i keep three cats at my house and there preety domesticated. :>)
>
>Uhm. Those cats are slightly more intelligent then the others. They make you
>believe they are domesticaed while they are controlling your mind. Maybe one
>day they'll make you beleive you are their owner... :)
>
>Bye, Paolo

suuuurrreee they will

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