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Message no. 1
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 02:22:30 -0400
OK, if I don't get a SR3 Hardback, I'm not gonna cry, but I don't understand
FASA's reasoning behind even making a softback version of their main book.

Look at what the other game companies are going to.

White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.
TSR - Hardback Only
Pinnacle - Main Book = HB ONLY.

With the page count in SR3 as high as it is, there is simply NO way in Hell
I'll be able to get even moderate use out of a softback book without getting
the cover folded, pages bent, and spine warped.
Not my idea of a good buy.
I have NO intention of purchasing more than one copy of SR3, but on the same
hand it's going to piss me off to have a fucked up book after a year or two
of constant use.

Granted softbacks ARE cheaper to produce, but the difference can't be that
bad, can it?
WW pumps out a new hardback or two each year and manages to keep most of
them at a $20 price point. Mage was as big as SR3 and it was in HB for under
$30.

What's the deal?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/Tinner
"Who taught you to make P's like that?" "The Dancing Horse."
"Stay away from
that Dancing Horse!" - Louie and Zalmie, "American Pop"
Message no. 2
From: David Goth <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 04:32:58 -0500
> OK, if I don't get a SR3 Hardback, I'm not gonna cry, but I don't
> understand
> FASA's reasoning behind even making a softback version of their main book.

What's even more mysterious is making the first printing of the softback
$25, and any later printings $30.

> White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.

Err... No. All (with a few exceptions like Kindred of the East) the WW books
started as paperback, and the 2nd editions being hardback. (Unless I have
them backwards, but I don't think I do.)

> TSR - Hardback Only

All the "Players Options" books were originally in hardback, but are now in
softback.

> With the page count in SR3 as high as it is, there is simply NO
> way in Hell
> I'll be able to get even moderate use out of a softback book
> without getting
> the cover folded, pages bent, and spine warped.

Personally, my softbacks have held up a lot better than the majority of my
hardbacks. But most of that is due to crappy binding techniques along the
lines of the Unearthed Arcana book from AD&D. I can live with the wear that
my softbacks have gotten. 'course, most of them aren't 300+ pages... (The
binding on SR2 is crap, by the way.)

> Granted softbacks ARE cheaper to produce, but the difference can't be that
> bad, can it?
> WW pumps out a new hardback or two each year and manages to keep most of
> them at a $20 price point. Mage was as big as SR3 and it was in
> HB for under
> $30.

Well, $20 price point is wrong. $25 is more like it. Didja consider that
maybe BECAUSE they pump out so many new hardbacks, is WHY they are able to
do it at a decent price? Volume discounts, economies of scale?

Anyway, I'm relatively satisfied with the hardback (or softback for that
matter) prices from the 'big' publishers. (FASA and WW. I haven't followed
enough of the others lately to really say). Some of the others are downright
proud of their stuff (one example: Legends of the Five Rings. And there was
an even smaller publisher that was horrendous, but I don't recall the name).

I'd almost contend that the 'core' rulebooks for any role-playing system
aren't really the biggest profit makers. They generally require the longest
development cycle, and attract the bigger 'talent' to work on them. Any
schmoe can put out a sourcebook (no offense if anyone here happens to BE one
of those 'schmoes' :). I kinda wonder if they aren't treated (somewhat) on
the same basis as loss-leaders. (Intentionally selling an item below cost to
get you into the 'store' to buy the stuff with extravagant profit margins).
It's probably not that extreme, but I get the sense that there is some of
that.

-Dave-
(Who in his gullible nature, is reorganizing his 'supplement' shelf in order
to make room for more).
Message no. 3
From: "RazorGirl ." <chumlikin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 05:42:40 PDT
Dave wrote:
I'd almost contend that the 'core' rule books for any role-playing
system aren't really the biggest profit makers. They generally require
the longest development cycle, and attract the bigger 'talent' to work
on them. Any schmoe can put out a source book (no offense if anyone here
happens to BE one of those 'schmoes' :). I kinda wonder if they aren't
treated (somewhat) on the same basis as loss-leaders. (Intentionally
selling an item below cost to get you into the 'store' to buy the stuff
with extravagant profit margins). It's probably not that extreme, but I
get the sense that there is some of that.

Are you sure about this. Think of it this way. For all the changes and
revisions that were don for SR3, most of the guts of the game were
already published and just needed to be re-complied. Rigger and Decking
were already around. Most of the cyberware that was added was from other
supplements. Etc, etc.

Also, I don't think rule books are going to loose that much money,
compared to Sourcebooks. I know that all my players have a copy of Sr2
and are all planning on buying SR3. Most bought the source books
relevant to them as players. Mages: Grim and Awake. Samurai: FoF and
SSC. Riggers and Deckers: R2 and VR2. Otherwise we just pool the other
books. We share location books and don't always buy concept books.
Adventures tend to get skipped anyways.

Think of this: Because of the changes to Magic will MITS will need new
rules. New, well thought out and hopefully well tested rules. Not
something any old schmoe could plop out. All the suggestions for the CC
makes me wonder if we may not see a complete variant combat system. And
the updates to Bioware and (maybe) new Cyberware will take creative time
to produce.

So it makes me wonder where the real money will be. In a core book that
most players will own, or in supplements that 75% of player may get?

"You came in that thing? You're braver than i thought."
Star Wars was funny on so many levels.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 4
From: David Goth <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 07:47:51 -0500
> Also, I don't think rule books are going to loose that much money,
> compared to Sourcebooks. I know that all my players have a copy of Sr2
> and are all planning on buying SR3. Most bought the source books
> relevant to them as players. Mages: Grim and Awake. Samurai: FoF and
> SSC. Riggers and Deckers: R2 and VR2. Otherwise we just pool the other
> books. We share location books and don't always buy concept books.
> Adventures tend to get skipped anyways.

Well, I probably used a poor choice of words (loss-leader was definitely the
word I meant to use, though). I didn't mean that core books LOSE money, but
that their profit margin is probably less. (Bleah...finance, not SR).

> So it makes me wonder where the real money will be. In a core book that
> most players will own, or in supplements that 75% of player may get?

Granted, it's probably a balance that the publishers try to strike. I kinda
just looked at it the way I saw it (or would consider doing it, if it were
up to me).

-Dave-
(Who is considering changing the display name in his messages so that he can
use his cool name like MC23 or K Is The Symbol)
Message no. 5
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 11:47:47 -0400
On 15 Aug 98, at 2:22, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> OK, if I don't get a SR3 Hardback, I'm not gonna cry, but I don't
> understand FASA's reasoning behind even making a softback version of their
> main book.

You make some good points, but all we can do is speculate. Send this
e-mail to FASA. I'd love to see their response.

> Look at what the other game companies are going to.
>
> White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.
> TSR - Hardback Only
> Pinnacle - Main Book = HB ONLY.

Well, look at the books you just mentioned. Do any of them have
anywhere near the 330 pages SR3 has? Considering most printers and
binders charge by the page, it would kill the cost of a book.

> With the page count in SR3 as high as it is, there is simply NO way in
> Hell I'll be able to get even moderate use out of a softback book without
> getting the cover folded, pages bent, and spine warped. Not my idea of a
> good buy. I have NO intention of purchasing more than one copy of SR3, but
> on the same hand it's going to piss me off to have a fucked up book after
> a year or two of constant use.

There are things you can do, or course. You can take it to Kinko's
and have it put into a spiral binder. Or, have them 3-hole punch it
for you, reinforce the edges, and put it in a notebook. Yea, I know,
you shouldn't have to do things like that....

> Granted softbacks ARE cheaper to produce, but the difference can't be that
> bad, can it? WW pumps out a new hardback or two each year and manages to
> keep most of them at a $20 price point. Mage was as big as SR3 and it was
> in HB for under $30.

Well, I think it has a lot to do also with the number of books
printed. WW sells more books, I think.

I agree with you Tinner, I would rather have a hardback too. I got a
BABY, but I'd be a fool to actually use the thing as my game book. As
cool as it is, I was kinda hoping for a regular hardback.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 6
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:20:11 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:32 AM 8/15/98 -0500, Dave wrote:
>> White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.
>
>Err... No. All (with a few exceptions like Kindred of the East) the
WW books
>started as paperback, and the 2nd editions being hardback. (Unless I
have
>them backwards, but I don't think I do.)

No, you've got it right, first edition softcover, second edition
hardback. My guess would be because traditionally, the second edition
followed the first by only a year. If you plan to phase out the book
in favor of the next edition in only a year, then a softcover makes
sense. Cheaper to produce, especially in the smaller print runs needed
for the first edition.

Also, from this consumer's standpoint, the first edition Storyteller
books seemed to be a bit like a public beta test. Sure the game is
fully fleshed out, but the rough edges of some of the mechanics
haven't quite been smoothed out. When the second edition comes out,
they've gone through another year of in-house playtesting, and had a
year of feedback from the players, and they can fix what needs fixing.

If you look closely at the core rules that WW puts out in hardback,
it's for rulebooks that they expect to stand the test of time. The
Second Edition rulebooks. The Historicals: Vampire: the Dark Ages,
Werewolf: the Wild West, and Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade. Most
recently, Kindred of the East, which is yet another setting for
Vampire.

With nearly every game that WW puts out in Hardcover, that becomes the
finalized version. The lone exception so far is Vampire, which is
being released in a Revised 2nd Edition this fall. Vampire has always
been WW's flagship game for the WoD, their best seller, and they say
that they want to bring its 7 year old second edition up to the
quality of their later second edition products.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 7
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:28:23 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>With nearly every game that WW puts out in Hardcover, that becomes the
>finalized version. The lone exception so far is Vampire, which is
>being released in a Revised 2nd Edition this fall. Vampire has always
>been WW's flagship game for the WoD, their best seller, and they say
>that they want to bring its 7 year old second edition up to the
>quality of their later second edition products.

V:TM 2nd revised is also coming out in a leatherbound edition in a
slipcase. $70 or so if memory serves me correct.

-MC23, who thinks Vampire the Masquerade is sooooo last year-
Message no. 8
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:50:37 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:47 AM 8/15/98 -0400, Tim wrote:
>> Look at what the other game companies are going to.
>>
>> White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.
>> TSR - Hardback Only
>> Pinnacle - Main Book = HB ONLY.
>
>Well, look at the books you just mentioned. Do any of them have
>anywhere near the 330 pages SR3 has? Considering most printers and
>binders charge by the page, it would kill the cost of a book.

Just going by what I have on shelf here:

Werewolf 2nd Edition (published 94) 333 pages if you count the
unnumbered 'comic book' pages in the front and back. $25

Mage 2nd Edition (published 95) 312 pages counting unnumbered color
plates in the front and unnumbered index pages in the back. $28

Vampire: Dark Ages (published 96) 288 pages counting unnumbered
character sheet in the back. $28


For the most current comparason, I would go by the advertised
price/pagecount for the Revised Vampire 2nd edition due out this fall:
296 pages, $29.95.

In a seperate email, At 12:28 PM 8/15/98 -0400, MC23 wrote:
> V:TM 2nd revised is also coming out in a leatherbound edition in
a
>slipcase. $70 or so if memory serves me correct.

That would be the Limited "Prestige" Edition (WW catalog #2299). The
price I quoted above is for the regular version (WW catalog #2300).

Now the Limited Edition V:tM 2nd Rev. does have a leatherette cover,
with silver foil stamping for the title, and a slipcase. It also comes
with a blood-red cloth bookmark, and a seperate artbook. Essentially,
it's WW's equivilent to the BABY (FASA catalog #7000), if the BABY
came in a slipcase with "High Tech and Low Life: The Art of Shadowrun"
and they charged you for both.



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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 9
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:08:54 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>> V:TM 2nd revised is also coming out in a leatherbound edition in
>>a slipcase. $70 or so if memory serves me correct.
>
>That would be the Limited "Prestige" Edition (WW catalog #2299). The
>price I quoted above is for the regular version (WW catalog #2300).

I did say _also_, as in /in addition to/.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"When _I_ use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful
tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
-Through the Looking Glass

I am MC23
Message no. 10
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:37:54 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 01:08 PM 8/15/98 -0400, MC23 wrote:
>>> V:TM 2nd revised is also coming out in a leatherbound edition
in
>>>a slipcase. $70 or so if memory serves me correct.
>>
>>That would be the Limited "Prestige" Edition (WW catalog #2299). The
>>price I quoted above is for the regular version (WW catalog #2300).
>
>I did say _also_, as in /in addition to/.

Yes. You did. I was just giving an expanded description of it.

I just wanted to make it clear that just because a gaming company puts
out a limited edition of their new version of the game rules, it
doesn't _have_ to break the bank. The high cost of WW2299 is partially
because of the options used in printing: leatherette cover, foil, but
partially because they're also charging you for the artbook. And
probably about $1 for the bookmark.

Although, if White Wolf is putting out this product for $70, they must
expect that there will be at least a few people willing to pay that
much for such an item. I'm just sorely disapointed that FASA doesn't
see a similar market for a regular Hardback version of their rules,
even if it is just one printing, and even if because they don't
normally print hardbacks, they'd have to charge $35-$40 to cover
costs.

It wouldn't have to be gaudy, I was perfectly satisfied with my SR2
hardback, even though it was essentally the same as the softcover. I
don't need foil and leather, I just want something sturdy; unlike some
other people on the list, I found my SR2 hardback to be quite durable,
it's just now showing signs of wear, as opposed to my SR1 softcover,
which disinegrated after 18 months of play.

Most importantly, I prefer hardback for the satisfying, resounding
"Thunk" it makes when smacked upside the head of an unruly player.
Softcovers just aren't the same.


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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 11
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:45:30 -0400
Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>It wouldn't have to be gaudy, I was perfectly satisfied with my SR2
>hardback, even though it was essentally the same as the softcover. I
>don't need foil and leather, I just want something sturdy; unlike some
>other people on the list, I found my SR2 hardback to be quite durable,
>it's just now showing signs of wear, as opposed to my SR1 softcover,
>which disinegrated after 18 months of play.

I just wanted to make sure you didn't think I was contradicting you.
As far as a hardback's go, paying even more for a stitch binding in them
would make it better (I've needed to reglue a breaking spine in my SR2).
If they are just scoring and glueing then there isn't much difference
between the two editions (although some do it better than others).

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 12
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:31:27 -0700
>So it makes me wonder where the real money will be. In a core book that
>most players will own, or in supplements that 75% of player may get?


Every book released MUST make money. FASA can not afford "loss leaders".
Fortunately, SR3 seems to be moving VERY well- fortunately, because its
development was long and hence expensive, both inherently and in other product
not released. This is not to say FASA is in a unique position, or financially
incompetent; cash flow is an inherent problem for any publisher.
And yes, obviously, SR3 will be FASA's best selling SR book by far, for a
long, long time- who buys other books without the core rules?

Mongoose
Message no. 13
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:41:01 -0700
>Granted softbacks ARE cheaper to produce, but the difference can't be that
>bad, can it?
>WW pumps out a new hardback or two each year and manages to keep most of
>them at a $20 price point. Mage was as big as SR3 and it was in HB for under
>$30.
>
>What's the deal?


Simple- FASA's other production expenses are (probably) higher. The word
count certainly is higher, and the editing and writing cycle is probably
longer (if you think FASA just cut and pastes old rules, you should check out
WW products). Also, the art is better- that's not just my opinion, its a
qualitative judgement about the size of the original works and the amount of
original images VS "graphic flash".

Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:39:53 -0400
Once upon a time, Mongoose wrote;

> And yes, obviously, SR3 will be FASA's best selling SR book by far, for a
>long, long time- who buys other books without the core rules?

As a standard prcatice you mean? I do have all the Chrome Books but
nothing of but not Cyberpunk. I used to get Villians and Vigilante books
for Champions. I have a friend how gets ICE's ShadoWorld books to run in
GURPS. OK, so maybe the question should be what game has suppliments that
outsells their core book?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 15
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 21:48:39 EDT
<SNIP>

Just my opinion, but I am kind of miffed that there isn't a Hardback SR3 being
released to the general public. I've had an SR3 softback for about 36 hours,
and the cover is already coming off. Just gives credence to my statement that
I would need more than one softback copy. Were I not a virtuoso with 'Super
Glue', I would be *very* disconcerted.

Mgkelly "Here, cut my fingers apart and bring some solvent..."
Message no. 16
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 22:17:00 +0100
And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
|>Err... No. All (with a few exceptions like Kindred of the East) the
|WW books
|>started as paperback, and the 2nd editions being hardback. (Unless I
|have
|>them backwards, but I don't think I do.)
|
|No, you've got it right, first edition softcover, second edition
|hardback.

1st Ed came out as a Hard Back as well...
I know someone who has one.


My guess would be because traditionally, the second edition
|followed the first by only a year.

A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 17
From: Drew Curtis <dcurtis@***.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:03:21 -0400
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Spike wrote:

> And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
> |>Err... No. All (with a few exceptions like Kindred of the East) the
> |WW books
> |>started as paperback, and the 2nd editions being hardback. (Unless I
> |have
> |>them backwards, but I don't think I do.)
> |
> |No, you've got it right, first edition softcover, second edition
> |hardback.
>
> 1st Ed came out as a Hard Back as well...
> I know someone who has one.
>
>
> My guess would be because traditionally, the second edition
> |followed the first by only a year.
>
> A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.
>

I've got an SR1 hardcover and SR2 hardcover as well.

Sr1 1989
Sr2 1992 fall
Sr3 1998 fall

Hm looks like we were overdue for an update

Drew Curtis, President, Digital Crescent, Incorporated
http://www.dcr.net (502) 226 3376 Internet and Software Design services.
Offering dial-up Access from Frankfort to Louisville and all points between.
Message no. 18
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 19:27:58 EDT
In a message dated 8/16/98 2:17:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:

> A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.
the first (Vamo and Were) were indeed followed the next year, then they raised
it to about 2 years, or right after I bought a first Edition, whichever cam
first.
Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:01:27 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:17 PM 8/16/98 +0100, Spike wrote:
>|>Err... No. All (with a few exceptions like Kindred of the East) the
>|WW books
>|>started as paperback, and the 2nd editions being hardback. (Unless
I
>|have
>|>them backwards, but I don't think I do.)
>|
>|No, you've got it right, first edition softcover, second edition
>|hardback.
>
>1st Ed came out as a Hard Back as well...
>I know someone who has one.

HELLO?!? :)

It apears that you are refering to the First Edition of Shadowrun
here.
However, in the quoted text that you were replying to, we were talking
about core rulebooks published by White Wolf Games Studio... that's
what the "WW" refers to.

I was not aware that White Wolf had put out the Shadowrun first
edition. :)

>My guess would be because traditionally, the second edition
>|followed the first by only a year.
>
>A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.

Again, you are talking about Shadowrun, while the material you were
replying to is refering to White Wolf's World of Darkness Storyteller
games. The quoted material accurately describes the development cycle
for the second editions of the 5 WoD core rulebooks.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 20
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:23:00 +0100
And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
|
|In a message dated 8/16/98 2:17:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
|u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:
|
|> A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.
|the first (Vamo and Were) were indeed followed the next year, then they raised
|it to about 2 years, or right after I bought a first Edition, whichever cam
|first.
|

Eh? Oh, I was talking about Shadowrun, not the crappy vampire/werewolf/lets
nick another mythical creature and make a game out of it....
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 21
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:25:06 +0100
And verily, did Paul Gettle hastily scribble thusly...
|HELLO?!? :)

Hello?

|It apears that you are refering to the First Edition of Shadowrun
|here.

Yup. This is the Shadowrn mailing list.

|However, in the quoted text that you were replying to, we were talking
|about core rulebooks published by White Wolf Games Studio... that's
|what the "WW" refers to.

I just noticed that. I have a mental block where WW games are concerned.
[Besides, I managed to pull it on topic. That's got to be a first]

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 22
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:05:31 -0400
At 02:22 AM 8/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>OK, if I don't get a SR3 Hardback, I'm not gonna cry, but I don't understand
>FASA's reasoning behind even making a softback version of their main book.
>
>Look at what the other game companies are going to.
>
>White Wolf - Every Main game book is Hardcover ONLY.
>TSR - Hardback Only
>Pinnacle - Main Book = HB ONLY.
>
>With the page count in SR3 as high as it is, there is simply NO way in Hell
>I'll be able to get even moderate use out of a softback book without getting
>the cover folded, pages bent, and spine warped.


Agreed! I admit...my gaming books get tremendous abuse being hauled around
everywhere I go and getting lent to friend for a quick read during sessions
of other games. My hardcover SR2 book didn't start dying from this type of
abuse till this last year or so while my softcover SR3 (purchased last
thursday) is already showing signs of the spine coming apart, the color
getting rubbed off and the corners of the cover getting abused. The
softcovers just don't stand up to the level of abuse that actively used
gaming books suffer, especially when compared to what a good hardcover can
handle.

-- Blair


------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/
Message no. 23
From: "RazorGirl ." <chumlikin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:43:44 PDT
Spike-Didn't your mother teach you about glass houses and stones?

You are going to trash a game based on mystical creatures while writing
on a Shadowrun List? That either takes balls or buckets of stupid pills.

>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:23:00 +0100
>Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
>From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
>Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
>|
>|In a message dated 8/16/98 2:17:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>|u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:
>|
>|> A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.
>|the first (Vamo and Were) were indeed followed the next year, then
they raised
>|it to about 2 years, or right after I bought a first Edition,
whichever cam
>|first.
>|
>
>Eh? Oh, I was talking about Shadowrun, not the crappy
vampire/werewolf/lets
>nick another mythical creature and make a game out of it....
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and
a |
>| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8
bit |
>| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4
bit |
>| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company,
that|
>| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition.
|
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE-
Y t+ |
>|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either
now! :( |
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 24
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:51:28 +0100
And verily, did RazorGirl . hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Spike-Didn't your mother teach you about glass houses and stones?
|
|You are going to trash a game based on mystical creatures while writing
|on a Shadowrun List? That either takes balls or buckets of stupid pills.

Shadowrun created a nice game.
WW didn't.
Shadowrun didn't just say "Right, we've created a game with trolls, orks.
elves and dwarves. Lets do exactly the same thing with the same world, and
create a whole new game on nothing but werewolves.

In case you hadn't guessed, I have an intense dislike of the WW games.
Live with it!

Oh, and LEARN TO SNIP YOUR POSTS!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 25
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:11:53 -0500
At 03:51 PM 8/17/98 +0100, Spike wrote:

>In case you hadn't guessed, I have an intense dislike of the WW games.
>Live with it!

Of, course, let's not forget that Spike plays HOL. A game published by WW.
Message no. 26
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:22:57 +0100
And verily, did Michael Broadwater hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 03:51 PM 8/17/98 +0100, Spike wrote:
|
|>In case you hadn't guessed, I have an intense dislike of the WW games.
|>Live with it!
|
|Of, course, let's not forget that Spike plays HOL. A game published by WW.
|

Not plays. I never have had a chance at actually playing that.
And it's not strictly WW. It's Blackdog, which means it has absolutely
nothing to do with the "World of Darkness" bulls**t.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 27
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:50:53 EST
> |However, in the quoted text that you were replying to, we were talking
> |about core rulebooks published by White Wolf Games Studio... that's
> |what the "WW" refers to.
>
> I just noticed that. I have a mental block where WW games are concerned.
> [Besides, I managed to pull it on topic. That's got to be a first]

<Snicker> Looks like _Spike_ didn't read all the messages in the
thread before replying :)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 28
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:22:25 -0500
> |Of, course, let's not forget that Spike plays HOL. A game
> published by WW.
> |
>
> Not plays. I never have had a chance at actually playing that.
> And it's not strictly WW. It's Blackdog, which means it has absolutely
> nothing to do with the "World of Darkness" bulls**t.

You can't escape it! WW is taking over the world! The Giovanni books were by
Black Dog and White Wolf! And thus, the World of Darkness bulls**t is in a
game you own!

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
(Irrational exuberance above brought about by the potential that is BABY. Do
all new parents get this stupid?)
Message no. 29
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:29:39 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 9:20:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, neon@*******.EDU
writes:

> Of, course, let's not forget that Spike plays HOL. A game published by WW.
>

Now there's a messed up game!

Otter
Message no. 30
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:38:38 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/98 9:29:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, xaos@*****.NET
writes:

> You can't escape it! WW is taking over the world! The Giovanni books were by
> Black Dog and White Wolf! And thus, the World of Darkness bulls**t is in a
> game you own!
>

Black Dog is White Wolf. It just their nasty side. Take a look at the writers
from some of the books. A lot of the guys and gals that wrote Werewolf and
Mage also did Hol and some of the other Black Dog stuff.

Otter
Message no. 31
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:45:46 -0400
On 17 Aug 98, at 11:50, Brett Borger wrote:

> <Snicker> Looks like _Spike_ didn't read all the messages in the
> thread before replying :)

Does he ever? :)

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 32
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:31:39 -0400
At 02:22 AM 8/15/98 -0400, you wrote:
>OK, if I don't get a SR3 Hardback, I'm not gonna cry, but I don't understand
>FASA's reasoning behind even making a softback version of their main book.

Well, I just learned something at the Comicon that may shed some light on
this...

>What's the deal?

Okay, first of all, this is something *not* coming from FASA officially, in
any way at all. So it could potentially be wrong. Administer the usual
grain of salt as needed.

BUT I spoke with a *very* reliable source at the Comicon on Saturday and
was informed that FASA has laid off a sizable portion of their art
department, including the not-going-to-be-missed Tom Baxa (at least not by
me) and the really-will-be-missed Jeff Laubenstein (anybody else remember
the Laubenstein Lights club? Jeff was with FASA for something like 12
years...). This reportedly occured *very* recently.

I strongly suspect that we will still see their art, but it will be done on
a more freelance basis, as they do with some of their other artists.

But this also means that FASA has trimmed it's payroll and it's expenses.
If they can't afford to maintain their full staff of artists any longer as
full time employees, do you really think they are the sort of financial
shape necessary to put out a full printing of the hardback, at least at
this moment?

The GenCon BABY wasn't really a risk; they knew that even if they didn't
sell them all there, there was sufficient demand that by now, I'm sure that
all the BABY's offered on their web site this morning are gone.

So FASA is probably still in the black right now, but they do seem to be at
the least taking measures to make sure they stay that way.

Erik the Proud Owner of BABY #574
Message no. 33
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:52:24 EDT
In a message dated 98-08-17 09:29:49 EDT, you write:

> I admit...my gaming books get tremendous abuse being hauled around
> everywhere I go and getting lent to friend for a quick read during sessions
> of other games.

Am I the only one who doesn't hae this problem? I've got books that are older
than I am that I haul around to games, read for fun (what can I say, I'm
weird), and none of my books are falling apart (except for my Vampire book).
Hell, I even move them all twice every year and they're still in good shape!

Damn, I feel fortunate.

Nexx, Coyote's favorite
Message no. 34
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:45:16 -0400
At 01:52 PM 8/17/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-08-17 09:29:49 EDT, you write:
>
>> I admit...my gaming books get tremendous abuse being hauled around
>> everywhere I go and getting lent to friend for a quick read during
sessions
>> of other games.
>
>Am I the only one who doesn't hae this problem? I've got books that are
older
>than I am that I haul around to games, read for fun (what can I say, I'm
>weird), and none of my books are falling apart (except for my Vampire book).
>Hell, I even move them all twice every year and they're still in good shape!
>
>Damn, I feel fortunate.
>
>Nexx, Coyote's favorite
>
>

Most of mine go through this type of use and ARE still in pretty good
shape. It tends to be the core books such as the main rulebooks and
supplements/sourcebooks that are used all of the time. My two worse ones
are the SR2 hardcover and the Rigger Black Book followed by Shadowtech and
Fields of Fire. These are getting referenced constantly by player and GM
alike and when I either own the only copy or am the one that always
remembers to bring the books that amounts to a lot of use. Considering the
shape my SR1 softcover is in after using it the year or two before the 2nd
edition book came out, there is no way my 2nd edition rulebook would have
survived the last six years if it had been a softcover.

-- Blair
------
Blair A. Monroe
Web Developer / Information Professional / Gamemaster
E-mail: bmonroe@******.fsu.edu
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~bmonroe/
Message no. 35
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:55:03 -0700
RazorGirl . wrote:
>
> Spike-Didn't your mother teach you about glass houses and stones?
>
> You are going to trash a game based on mystical creatures while
> writing on a Shadowrun List? That either takes balls or buckets of > stupid pills.

It's just a matter of trashing WW. It's a trendy thing to do in this modern
age for some reason.

Really sad, too. To spend so much time tearing down the achievements of
others rather than building up one's own.

>
> >Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:23:00 +0100
> >Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
> >From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> >Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
> >To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> >
> >And verily, did Michael vanHulst hastily scribble thusly...
> >|
> >|In a message dated 8/16/98 2:17:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >|u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK writes:
> >|
> >|> A lot longer than a year I think. More like 3.
> >|the first (Vamo and Were) were indeed followed the next year, then
> they raised
> >|it to about 2 years, or right after I bought a first Edition,
> whichever cam
> >|first.
> >|
> >
> >Eh? Oh, I was talking about Shadowrun, not the crappy
> vampire/werewolf/lets
> >nick another mythical creature and make a game out of it....
> >--
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and
> a |
> >| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8
> bit |
> >| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4
> bit |
> >| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company,
> that|
> >| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition.
> |
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE-
> Y t+ |
> >|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either
> now! :( |
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 36
From: Matt Penn <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:54:01 -0400
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 14:45:16 -0400 "Blair A. Monroe"
<bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU> writes:

>Most of mine go through this type of use and ARE still in pretty good
>shape. It tends to be the core books such as the main rulebooks and
>supplements/sourcebooks that are used all of the time. My two worse
ones
>are the SR2 hardcover and the Rigger Black Book followed by Shadowtech
and
>Fields of Fire. These are getting referenced constantly by player and
GM
>alike and when I either own the only copy or am the one that always
>remembers to bring the books that amounts to a lot of use. Considering
the
>shape my SR1 softcover is in after using it the year or two before the
2nd
>edition book came out, there is no way my 2nd edition rulebook would
have
>survived the last six years if it had been a softcover.

Well, I'm sure I haven't had my books long as some of you out there
(though they have been well read), but the character archetype pages are
already starting to fall out of my SR2. One was helped by a guy in my
gaming group pulling on one for some seconds before asking "Are these
supposed to come out?"

For the helluvit, I checked my other RPG books to see which ones've been
holding up well. The WW books all seem to be doing all right, more or
less. Some of my Star Wars RPG are outright falling apart, and have been
almost ever since I got 'em. Nexx, you'll be able to relate, my
Palladium books all seem to be holding up well to the years' ravages.
Almost indestructible, and God knows they've been tossed around by
insensitve players over the years. Even an old, old copy of After the
Bomb.

Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
"If I hated Shadowrun, the book'd be in mint condition. I'm sure of it."

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 37
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:59:35 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Blair A. Monroe
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 09:06
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...

>
> Agreed! I admit...my gaming books get tremendous abuse being
> hauled around
> everywhere I go and getting lent to friend for a quick read
> during sessions
> of other games. My hardcover SR2 book didn't start dying from
> this type of
> abuse till this last year or so while my softcover SR3 (purchased last
> thursday) is already showing signs of the spine coming apart, the color
> getting rubbed off and the corners of the cover getting abused. The
> softcovers just don't stand up to the level of abuse that actively used
> gaming books suffer, especially when compared to what a good hardcover can
> handle.

(Except for *one* copy of the ED hardbound I own, all the rest of the FASA
hardcovers I've owned have fallen apart relatively quickly.)

What I do for soft-cover SR books is buy the Chessex DragonSkin Vinyl
covers. $2.50 or so. (Or tape up the edges and bindings). Keeps them intact,
more or less. Unfortuneately, I haven't been able to find the SR DragonSkins
for a while, so many of my books are sporting other covers (In nomine,
Maximum Metal, etc.)

Ian Silvercat claims the above in the name of himself!
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security - Benjamin Franklin
That which does not exist has never been named - Mirumoto Nohito
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Homepage : http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~jhurley1
Message no. 38
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:22:23 -0700
Spike wrote:

> In case you hadn't guessed, I have an intense dislike of the WW games.
> Live with it!

Isn't that a personal problem? Why air it here? Does it relate to
Shadowrun?



--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 39
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:29:27 -0700
Spike wrote:
>
> Not plays. I never have had a chance at actually playing that.
> And it's not strictly WW. It's Blackdog, which means it has absolutely
> nothing to do with the "World of Darkness" bulls**t.

The majority of Black Dog titles are World of Darkness. In fact, only the
HOL books are not.

BUT... Black Dog *is* strictly White Wolf.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 40
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:23:35 +0100
And verily, did Tim Kerby hastily scribble thusly...
|
|On 17 Aug 98, at 11:50, Brett Borger wrote:
|
|> <Snicker> Looks like _Spike_ didn't read all the messages in the
|> thread before replying :)
|
|Does he ever? :)

Errrrrr....
Nope.
:)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 41
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:49:39 +0100
And verily, did Marizhavashti Kali hastily scribble thusly...
|Really sad, too. To spend so much time tearing down the achievements of
|others rather than building up one's own.

I take it you don't allow other people to have opinions then?
Care to make a few comments on my intense dislike of all things microsoft
while we're at it?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 42
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:52:24 +0100
And verily, did Marizhavashti Kali hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Spike wrote:
|
|> In case you hadn't guessed, I have an intense dislike of the WW games.
|> Live with it!
|
|Isn't that a personal problem? Why air it here? Does it relate to
|Shadowrun?

Nope.
But then, she attacked, I reposted.
And before you start calling me a hypocrit of something for posting in this
thread, you did something similar. Calling me sad, or something.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 43
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:55:26 +0100
And verily, did Marizhavashti Kali hastily scribble thusly...
|The majority of Black Dog titles are World of Darkness. In fact, only the
|HOL books are not.
|
|BUT... Black Dog *is* strictly White Wolf.

I think the point is though that it (HoL) is NOT a WOD game.
I wouldn't touch a WOD game with a bargepole.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 44
From: Dhl9@***.COM
Subject: Re: No Hardback - I don't get it ...
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:24:24 EDT
I don't have a great deal of problem keeping my books in very good to
excellent shape but then I see alot of people put theirs through alot more
unnecessary abuse than I do with mine. My SR1 paperback is still in decent
shape and the other really old books I have, the SSC1 and Sprawl Sites are in
very good to excellent shape.

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Thwap!