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Message no. 1
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@***.IM.MED.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: No Limits Games/Munchkin GM's
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 08:36:32 -0400
This may not be a welcomed post, but since when has that stopped me? ;)


I believe that Terry had attempted to make some very valid points, but the
comments made were taken pretty defensively, and therefore the validity in the
comments was mostly lost in transit.

Not all GM's have a "God complex", as I call it. I don't think that only a
limited few have it, either. I have noticed in my dozen or so years of gaming
experience that many (read: most) GM's have this complex in some amount or
another. Let's face it...there is a certain amount of power knowing you have
control over the situation--No Matter What. *You* control the destiny of the
players....no matter what they do. *You* can railroad the players into
ultimately doing what you want them to do. *You* can fudge the die roll(s)
that would kill the player and keep them alive instead. Not all GM's do this
(or any of it, for that matter), but the temptation and opportunity is
certainly there.

I have had GM's that range anywhere from the "keep them under my oppressive
thumb" to the "let them have what they want...I'll just have to come up with
more potent enemies/dilemmas" range.

As a personal preference, I like the latter of the two. I feel that a creative
GM can easily compensate for players that gain more power than would be
considered "appropriate" by other GM's. I am not saying that every game should
be "Monty Haul", but I feel that knowing that your PC will never really have
the opportunity to become a Hero or a Legend (hey, it could happen ;) or even
get his/her name known on a wide scale in a positive manner would be somewhat
discouraging to me. It's sort of like going to a job interview and hearing
"Well, there's not much room for advancement here....but hopefully you will
have fun with your job anyway..."

I know that different GM's have a varying level of creativity and tolerance for
PC's and the stunts they pull. It does take a certain amount of creativity to
come up with more powerful foes (it also takes time) and more in-depth
plotlines. But for all of the GM's on this mailing list who claim to be good
at what they do (i.e.: sorry to hear you have had bad experiences with GM's in
the past, Terry -- or something to that effect -- suggesting that they aren't
as oppressive and bad at their GMing as the schmucks that Terry has come across
in the past), it wouldn't seem that difficult for them to handle such a trivial
task as beefing up the enemy a little.

To me, it's very frustrating to be oppressed all the way down the road of
gaming. I don't care what the genre of the game is...it's no excuse for power
tripping on the part of the GM. There are a couple of folks on this mailer
that have played with me and/or GM'ed a PC or two of mine in the past (and
currently, for that matter) who can attest that I am not a Munchkin player. (I
hope ;)

I feel that in the long run it is more fun to let the players be creative and
get some of the spoils that the big dogs get...if they are smart enough to stay
alive long enough to gain it. Don't get me wrong...I don't think a starting PC
is of god-like power, but I do think that they are portrayed as better-than-
average runners. I also feel that this means they won't get their butts kicked
every time they run into a similar sized group of squatters with broken beer
bottles. (Sorry, hunger doesn't improve your unarmed combat skill THAT much)
;)

Sorry if I seem to be ranting, but I didn't want Terry's comments to go
completely without understanding. They may have seemed a bit harsh, but I
think Terry was just trying to point out that GM's have the same potential to
be Munchkins as players do. Not because they have something to "win", but
because they like the power of being a GM and "get off" on controling the
destiny of the PC's. (And let me tell you, if you like to power trip at the
expense of the freedom of others (read: controlling the destiny of others),
this (Gming) certainly gives you a good opportunity to do so).

Unlike being an author, gaming requires the GM *AND* the players to come up
with a good story. If it is too one-sided (only the GM calling all the shots,
or vice versa), it gets boring. Don't think that just because you are the GM
that you carry the only vote that matters. Yes, the players have the
responsibility to find a new GM if they don't like the one they've got, but
just remember--when your players are gone, who will you have left to control?

Gaming (unlike many books) is a group effort. Creating an interesting story is
what it's all about. All parties involved should take an active part in doing
so...otherwise it becomes boring pretty quick. Please don't forget that your
players need some flexibility to be kept happy. And happiness and fun are what
it's all about. :)


Justin :)

_______________________________________________________________
(jpinnow@*****.edu)

Geek Code (version 2.1):

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!3 E? N+ K- W+ M+ V+ po---
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!D B--- e+ u+ h- f? r+(*) N----
Y++

----------------------------------
"Now, I know I look good in blue.
That's no excuse for what you do."

--Eve's Plum
"Blue"
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Message no. 2
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Limits Games/Munchkin GM's
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:22:26 -0400
> This may not be a welcomed post, but since when has that stopped me? ;)

Justin:

Hear, hear! You expressed your points coherently and well (yes, you did
ramble a bit) >8->, and for the most part I agree with you. There ARE
GM's on a munchkin trip, and there are GM's who are out to make the PC's
miserable as a goal. That people choose to play with such creeps is
unfortunate.


> I believe that Terry had attempted to make some very valid points, but the
> comments made were taken pretty defensively, and therefore the validity in the
> comments was mostly lost in transit.

He came CLOSE to making some valid points, but didn't quite get to making
them. The reason his comments were taken "defensively" is because he accused
GM's of munchkinism for doing the things that are a GM's job. Not for HOW
they are done -- for doing them. In general, your comments were expressed
much more sensibly.


> [...] Let's face it...there is a certain amount of power knowing you have
> control over the situation--No Matter What. *You* control the destiny of the
> players....no matter what they do. *You* can railroad the players into
> ultimately doing what you want them to do. *You* can fudge the die roll(s)
> that would kill the player and keep them alive instead. Not all GM's do this
> (or any of it, for that matter), but the temptation and opportunity is
> certainly there.

This is the part I'll express limited disagreement with. If you're a GM and
are paying any attention to the game going on around you, you're too busy to
feel much of a power trip. I don't, at least -- I mean, you're right, there
is power involved, but at no point do I sit up and say to myself "Wow, I'm
powerful." Remember that the GM's power is wrapped entirely around the
PC's.. He ISN'T free to do whatever he wants, he can only respond to the
PCs' actions. And unless he's a complete bastard, he has much less control
over those actions than you imply.

Yes, there are people who do these sorts of things. There are bastard GM's,
after all, and GM's who just don't pay attention. But it's only "power"
depending on your perspective. If you're maintaining what I consider (in
my not so humble opinion) the "right" GM perspective, you don't FEEL a whole
lot of power. Particularly when your players have just managed to call off
your Lone Star manhunt with very effective use of the Control Thoughts spell.

Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|"Much of the economic decay of south-east
My opinions are my opinions. | Asia...is undoubtedly due to a heedless and
Please don't blame anyone else. | shameful neglect of trees."-E.F. Schumacher

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