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Message no. 1
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:33:23 GMT
There was a few comments on the state of Scandinavia in 2050's.

I'm just writing off the top of my head here, mind, but a few things
I've given some thought to... um.. okay, here goes.


Nordic history: (SERIOUSLY abridged)
Iceland was colonized by vikings between 500 A.D and 1000 A.D. Scandinavia
had been settled since approximately 8000-10000 B.C. The lapps are similar to
eskimos, settling time unknown. From about 790 to 1100 the scandinavian
countries were mostly not countries - lots of minor kings fighting each other,
or going on Viking (Which is the norse word for raiding). They were also
traders and mercenaries - their trade routes went west and south into the
mediterranean, Rome and Constantinople, and the swedes' routes went east, up
the russian rivers and south into the black sea, and west also to Rome.
Their name for africans were Bluemen, incidentally. During the years from
1000 to 1200 the areas coalesced into nations, and in 1300 the Norwegian king's
only daughter and the danish king married. Meanwhile sweden became a major
power. This arrangment lasted until 1814, when Denmark, allied to Napoleon,
lost. Norway was handed to Sweden for joining the winning alliance. In 1905
Norway became a sovereign nation, adopting a new king. In WWII, both Norway,
Sweden, Finland and Denmark declared themselves neutral, but this neutrality
was often tested. Germany invaded Denmark and Norway in operation Weserubung,
installing puppet governments. The norwegian government fled to England and
directed further resistance from there. Norway was, at the time, a country with
a huge merchant fleet (many under 'flags of convenience') which more or less
completely escaped and joined the allies. Sweden remained neutral throughout
the war. Finnland was neutral, but was invaded both by germany and russia.
(I don't know the exact story here). They fought off both.
After WWII the cold war began, also here. Norway and Iceland joined NATO,
Finnland joined the Warsaw Pact, Sweden remained neutral. Soviet 'training
exercises', consisting of massed fleets of landing craft and support craft
rushing the border and then barely breaking off happened a few times a year.
Subs scouting, Ceasar, and all of that. It's not quite over yet, but there's
no real feeling of threat anymore. From what I know of classified stuff,
Finnland kept NATO informed of a lot... there's lots of fun cold war details
I won't go into here.
The nordic countries was less severely hit by the AIDS epidemic of the late
1990's, at least partly due to a genetic fault which made parts of the
population immune. VITAS spread faster, and dealt as harshly with the
nordic countries as the rest of the world. Health care, allredy challenged
by increasingly expensive cures, was severely overtaxed by the VITAS epidemic.
In the end it fared no better, nor worse, than any other western countries,
with a large part of the population dead. The Awakening brought its own
challenges, which was dealt with differently in the urban areas compared
to the cities. In urban farmland, the reaction was either stoic acceptance or
fervent rejection. In the end, stoic acceptance won out, but it cost more than
a few lives. The region has little history of discrimination, but with the
recent influx of immingrants the embers were burning. A political party tried
to profit off the fear in its rethorics, and won significant power - enough
power that trolls, and orcs, were put in separate containment camps. But when
everyone had close family that was somehow affected, the reign of hate ended.
The party remained influential, though.
During the Eurowars Iceland and Norway was not directly attacked but assisted
Germany as NATO countries. Sweden and Finnland remained neutral. None of the
countries suffered much, and neither did they go as nationalistic as most of
the rest of europe. The flame of the 'nordic alliance' was tried rekindled, but
failed.

There's quite a few possible futures in shadowrun. I'll outline XX.

1: The governments, in their restriction of corporate power, fall behind in
the economical race as corporations avoid them. They become poor areas.. and
then not able to withstand corporate pressure after all.

2: The governments provide lots of resources to attract corporations, but also
provide enough restrictions that corporations doesn't become all-powerful in
the area.

3: The awakening reveals immortal trolls, which then proceed to become
a powerful factor in the government, ala the Tirs. (These trolls would not
be the almost-comical figures some play them as in Shadowrun. Traditionally,
trolls are.. 'all unto themselves'. Then, orcs might simply be young trolls.

Both Sweden, Denmark and Norway are monarchies with a social democratic
government. The royalty has only formal power. Social democratic means
democratic with a slightly higher rate of public, rather than private,
ownership. It's moving towards even more private ownership currently.

Language wise, Norwegian, Swedish and Danish is extremely similar - similar
enough that local dialects can be harder to understand. Icelandic and Finnish
is quite different, though. (WIth no similarity to each other, either.).

The Corporate/Financial Sector:
Norway has huge reserves of oil and gas which is expected to last
approximately 70 years. The last few years huge amounts of cash has been
funneled into the 'oil fund', an investment fund to ease the transit into a
non-oil economy. (It consists of 30% of norwegian export). Any shadowrunner
would *LOVE* to dip their fingers in that fund... most power is hydropower.
Sweden has a nuclear plant which is being disabled as we speak. They have less
hydropower, more coal and gas. Denmark has a lot of windmill power plants. All
the countries are experimenting with alternate power sources.

(A question on wether to make a gas power plant almost threw the government.
The arguing went on hold when Hydro announced last week new tech which
would reduce CO2 pollution by 90%, which might be available in 6-12 months.).

There's a number of major corporations that should be around in 2050.
(Not counting financial institutions - they tend to change, merge etc.
all the time.).

Kvaerner is possibly the largest. (Produces the Triton commercial sub in
Cyberpirates). With more than 70 major industrial complexes all over the world,
it is a large multinational. It's mostly into heavy industry, shipping,
and manufacturing things like oil platforms. That's the company that was
contracted to make a space launch out of an oil rig, IIRC.
Hm.. they should have a homepage.. sure is. www.kvaerner.com .. okay.
As it's mentioned in CP it's definitely alive & well in 2055.

Hydro is another multinational corporation based in Norway.
(www.hydro.com).

Saab and Volve is, AFAIK, the largest, or at least most prestigious, Swedish
corporations. Jet fighters and cars. Ericsson, with electronics. They also
have homepages. In the RBB Saab manufacture the Dynamit, which is a lean mean
machine.. can't say I remember any Volvo's. Anyway, that means Saab's still
alive & well.

There's also Scania, Aker, a host of others. Statoil, the norwegian
governmental oil company, is currently quite ambitious, and is diversifying at
an alarming rate.

I can't think of more major corporations around here. As usual, there's some of
those corporations you never think about, but owns almost everything...
Orkla, Nestle, stuff like that.


I'll primarily introduce my own country to give a description of it.
There's enough Danes and Swedes around that they can speak for themselves..

Norway (Norge/Noreg) Geographically:
Population 4.3 million
This country is fairly small in area, but has an extremely long coastline.
In length it would stretch across europe. Its long coastline makes it very
influential in the northern atlantic ocean, and has uncharacteristically large
parts of the Arctic and Antarctic polar areas.

Geologically, it's an ancient country. Its mountains are worn and broken
peaks, with few higher than 2000 meters, IIRC. As opposed to Iceland, it's an
extremely stable area geologically.

It's divided in four social parts, the north, east, south and west.

The north is the least industrialized area, with a group of aborigines called
lapps. These have their own government, but is considered part of Norway.
Together with the finns, they are, also legendarily, considered the most
magically potent. In the old sagas, nine lapp women ensorcelled Eiric
Bloodax's fur cloak and made it impervious to sword and fire.
The winters are harsh - the north is tundra.

The west is the area of mountains and fjords, long valleys and numerous medium
and small sized cities. Most noteworthy is Bergen, a major trading port, and
Trondheim, which is strategically placed, with a major airport. It is also
a place rich in folklore, with a lot of places with mythological names.
In the mountains, you'll find a lot of places regarded in local folklore
as created by the actions of this or that troll, or a gate to their realm.
These places are usually fairly awe-inspiring. Trollswall (trollveggen), a
*huge* wall of stone in a Romsdalen, its top usually clouded by skies, is
legendarily the gates into the troll caves.

*if* you have other immortal races than elves, here's where you'd find the
immortal trolls, the jotuns(jotner), and the gate to their metaplane.
According to myth, jotuns *are* immortal. The first ice giant, Ymir, was father
to both gods and giants.

During winter, the coast is heated by the gulf stream, which warms the atlantic
ocean slightly. Thus temperatures seldom go below -5 to -10 in winter.. at
the coast. Inland it can get as low as -20 to -30. In summer it stays around
15-30 degrees celsius. 30 is considered stifling hot.

The south is a holiday area, and quite influenced by the period when Norway was
part of Denmark language-wise. The south and the east has a large number of
semi-large cities, and with the warmest summers.

The east is the largest agricultural area, as well as the area with the
capital city, Oslo. Sheltered from the elements by the massive mountain ranges
in the west, the weather doesn't suffer the harsh northern winds, but neither
is it helped by the gulf stream, so the temperature varies a lot more. It
gets warmer in the summer, and colder in the winter, than the west.

That's about it, geographically. Note that the 'east' 'south' etc is not
really that, but it's close enough. ;)

There's also a special note on Svalbard, a piece of rock shared between Russia
and Norway. It's where there's been a few aircraft accidents lately. It is a
demilitarized zone, where Norway has administrative rights, and may thus
patrol with coastal guard frigates. It is primarily a mining island.
(That bit's confusing. Island means Iceland (the country) in Norwegian.).

A side note on naming philosophy. When vikings discovered Iceland, they named
it for what they saw - a cold, hard, inhospitable rock. Not that many went
there. So when they found Svalbard, they named it 'pleasantly warm island'...
while it was a lot less hospitable than Iceland.. and that's saying a LOT!.
Greenland, similarily - it's green about one week a year, if that. The rest
it's just snow & ice. Greenland is part of Denmark, BTW. Faroyene is part
of Norway, although not entirely (long story.). They're considered fairly...
hm. A friend of mine, on a fishing boat, noticed there was a separate cabin
with four faroyers, pumping steel and playing with knives. Enough said.. ;)


Iceland

While it's not my home country, and thus I don't know that much about it,
I'm not sure there's that many icelanders on this list, so I'll write a few
words. If there *is* any around, my apologies for everything which is wrong.

Population is about two hundred thousand, and only one large city, Reykjavik.
It has an American air base which is one of the world's largest.

Geologically Iceland is hell. It's unstable, with major volcanic eruptions
every ten years or so. (Watch Hekla on a bad day, then have a look at the
movie 'Volcano'... and laugh.). Jokulahups is a funny word meaning
'glacier pit'. It's from a volcanic eruption below a glacier, which melts
a few kilometers of ice in a week or so. It causes severe flooding in the
affected areas. Geysirs, active volcanos, glaciers, hostile winters and rock,
rock rock as far as you can see. Its geological position makes geothermal
heating and research quite interesting, though.

Language: Icelanders consistently translates new expressions into icelandic,
without introducing words from other languages directly. Their language
is probably quite similar to what the Vikings spoke.

Politically: Iceland is a democracy, electing a president. The world's first
democratic country with a female president, incidentally.

All nordic countries are considered lutheranian christian.

Hm, closing time.

Okay, you guys ask questions or whatever, I gotta go.

--
Fade
ADVICE, n. The smallest current coin.
-Ambrose Bierce
Message no. 2
From: Zixx <t_berghoff@*********.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:38:26 +0000
On 27 Apr 98 at 18:33, Rune Fostervoll wrote:

First: Damn, damn, *damn* good artical!
<Zixx is impressed>

[Snip]

> There's quite a few possible futures in shadowrun. I'll outline XX.
>
> 1: The governments, in their restriction of corporate power, fall behind in
> the economical race as corporations avoid them. They become poor areas.. and
> then not able to withstand corporate pressure after all.
>
> 2: The governments provide lots of resources to attract corporations, but also
> provide enough restrictions that corporations doesn't become all-powerful in
> the area.
>
> 3: The awakening reveals immortal trolls, which then proceed to become
> a powerful factor in the government, ala the Tirs. (These trolls would not
> be the almost-comical figures some play them as in Shadowrun. Traditionally,
> trolls are.. 'all unto themselves'. Then, orcs might simply be young trolls.

I'll add a 4), if I might.
(Note that I totally, completely and wholeheartly ignore the Germany
sourcebook and won't melt the ice, flood half of the country or any drek
like that)
Basically, it's a bit from all your points :)

4: Skandinavia has serious problems. While corporate research facilities
keep few people pretty rich, the rest of the population has nothing the
corps want. So you have enclosed corporate areas and the poor outside
world. Of course, there is a large number of smugglers. You have to get
food from somewhere. Shadowrunners are able to make fast money, if they can
get some paydata. Talking about research and paydata: Magic is has some
pretty interesting variations here (I know, I know, every country ever
mentioned in SR (except for the Philipines (sp?)) has an above-average
magic-level. But Skandinavia really earns it, IMO.). Add some local groups
that fight the corps (Lapps and other people) and I think it might get
interesting....


Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx
ICQ: 9293066

A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45

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Message no. 3
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:00:55 -0700
> 4: Skandinavia has serious problems. While corporate research
facilities
> keep few people pretty rich,

Why would a corp move anything to Scandinavia?

the rest of the population has nothing the
> corps want.

FOOD? There's a pretty big industry here, just making and exporting
food, it wouldn't be problem:)

So you have enclosed corporate areas and the poor outside
> world. Of course, there is a large number of smugglers.
You have to get
> food from somewhere. Shadowrunners are able to make fast money, if
they can
> get some paydata. Talking about research and paydata: Magic is has
some
> pretty interesting variations here (I know, I know, every country ever
> mentioned in SR (except for the Philipines (sp?)) has an above-average
> magic-level. But Skandinavia really earns it, IMO.). Add some local
groups
> that fight the corps (Lapps and other people) and I think it might get
> interesting....
>
>

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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:18:34 +0100
Morten Ax said on 23:00/29 Apr 98...

> > 4: Skandinavia has serious problems. While corporate research facilities
> > keep few people pretty rich,
>
> Why would a corp move anything to Scandinavia?

Because it's an out-of-the-way place?
Because with the Matrix, it doesn't matter where certain facilities are
located?
Because there's a large number of people there who want to work in your
factory?
Because there are highly-educated people there who want to work in your
research facility?
Because there's oil under the North Sea?
Because they want to move something to Scandinavia?

IMHO there are plenty of reasons why a corp would move something to
Scandinavia, or to any place in the world for that matter. It all boils
down to making a profit, in the end.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: Morten Ax <run_over@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:10:19 -0700
> > Why would a corp move anything to Scandinavia?
>
> Because it's an out-of-the-way place?

And then pay double the shipping expenses, I belive that nobody would
build anything in Denmark. Right now everybody (read: danish
companies) are moving their productions to other contries.

> Because with the Matrix, it doesn't matter where certain facilities
are
> located?
> Because there's a large number of people there who want to work in
your factory?

Off course I can't speak for the future generations, but today the
Danes require far to much money in comparrison to other contries,
that's one of the reasons to why Corps are moving.

> Because there are highly-educated people there who want to work in
your research facility?

Wouldn't it be easier moving the people to the existing facilities?

> Because there's oil under the North Sea?

Not in 2050, by that time (if I'm not much wrong) much of it (all of
it?) will be gone.

>Because they want to move something to Scandinavia?

> IMHO there are plenty of reasons why a corp would move something to
Scandinavia, or to any place in the world for that matter. It all
boils down to making a profit, in the end.
>

It does, then maybe Corps would move hush-hush things to far away
places in Scandinavia? Maybe they would use the same places for
testing ranges for experimental things.
And as the last thing, maybe something valuable is found in the
underground of some part of Scandinavia...

As you pointed out, there's plenty of reasons. It was just that some
of those mentioned seemed somewhat weak...

-=AX=-

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Message no. 6
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:22:41 -0500
Morten Ax said on 23:00/29 Apr 98...
>
> Why would a corp move anything to Scandinavia?
>
<chauvinist pig mode>
Swedish Bikini Chicks
</chauvinist pig mode>

Like people have been saying, there are tons of reasons. And who says
they have to move? Sure, the Corp that grows up in Norway may not be one
of the Big 8, but it can be big enough to be extraterritorial, and be big
enough to employ scads (ohhh, new word) of people.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn lasts
forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo the
better part of humor."
aka Ellegon, Working at making Cannon canon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are crunchy
and good with ketchup."
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Message no. 7
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:59:04 EDT
In a message dated 4/30/98 6:06:16 AM !!!First Boot!!!, run_over@*****.COM
writes:

> > 4: Skandinavia has serious problems. While corporate research
> facilities
> > keep few people pretty rich,
>
> Why would a corp move anything to Scandinavia?

Easy, the populations of those nations make it relatively easy for
intelligence groups to keep an eye on foreigners and newbies moving within the
shadows that much easier to do.

There is also a lot of open space, which makes for some hellacious FOF around
corp sites.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Nordic countries (LONG)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:41:04 +0100
Morten Ax said on 6:10/30 Apr 98...

> > Because it's an out-of-the-way place?
>
> And then pay double the shipping expenses, I belive that nobody would
> build anything in Denmark. Right now everybody (read: danish
> companies) are moving their productions to other contries.

That's not because of high shipping expenses. If oyu look at the stuff
that gets imported, you can deduce that shipping often costs next to
nothing.

The reason corps today are moving away from Europe is because we have
people who want to be well-paid for the work they deliver, in addition to
all kinds of other demands. Moving factories to South-East Asia is cheaper
in the end, because with the same money, they can pay many more people to
do the same labor for longer periods and still sell the products for the
same price, if not cheaper, in Europe.

> > Because there's a large number of people there who want to work in
> your factory?
>
> Off course I can't speak for the future generations, but today the
> Danes require far to much money in comparrison to other contries,
> that's one of the reasons to why Corps are moving.

Yes, and if all the corps move away, the result will be massive
unemployment, and since most people don't like being unemployed, they'll
take any job they can get -- if a corp moves a factory back to such a
place, it would likely find lots of people willing to work in factories
they wouldn't have twenty years before.

> > Because there's oil under the North Sea?
>
> Not in 2050, by that time (if I'm not much wrong) much of it (all of
> it?) will be gone.

If we keep pumping it up at the rate we are now, yes. But what if the
storm of 2008 (or whenever it was) swept away the drilling platforms?

> As you pointed out, there's plenty of reasons. It was just that some
> of those mentioned seemed somewhat weak...

YOU are the Scandinavian around here, not me :) I took about two minutes
to come up with some stuff that sounded semi-plausible...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
You're gonna like it, but not a lot.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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