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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Lowe)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 15:10:04 2001
Ok, I need your opinions on this, before I kill one of my players
(and vice versa).

Has anyone else had a problem with the Ares Viper? It has a listed
damage code of 9S, which puts it a 12D in burst-fire mode. Regardless
of the flechette factor, I've always had a serious problem with a 12D
weapon that can be concealed under a jacket.

Basically, all of my players were running around with these and
tearing up everything in their way with little pocket cannons. To
compensate, I've ruled that the burst-fire damage is 9S and the
single shot is 6M. Fortunately, my players have plenty of other
reasons to dislike me so they don't fixate on that.

I'm curious if anyone else has had a problem with this and what they've done.

D.
--
David Lowe
The Milk Farm
A Design Collaborative
david@***********.com
http://www.themilkfarm.com

Try a glass. It'll change your life.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (robert frazine)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 15:20:00 2001
On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, David Lowe wrote:

> Basically, all of my players were running around with these and
> tearing up everything in their way with little pocket cannons. To
> compensate, I've ruled that the burst-fire damage is 9S and the
> single shot is 6M. Fortunately, my players have plenty of other
> reasons to dislike me so they don't fixate on that.

That is how we use the viper in our games. For some reason I thought that
the 9S had been clarified at some point.



Shade

"God loves excessive violence" -- Warren Ellis.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 15:25:01 2001
Von David Lowe :

<snip>

IIRC, 9S is the Damage code for a 3-rnd burst...

Arclight
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 15:30:01 2001
Von mir :

>Von David Lowe :
>
><snip>
>
>IIRC, 9S is the Damage code for a 3-rnd burst...

It's not. /me slaps himself for posting before looking up the stats.

Arclight
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 15:45:04 2001
I've never had a problem with it myself...yeah it's a little big, but it's
flechette damage. Just put them up against some people with heavy enough
armor that the flechettes don't do as much damage to them per se. Remember
that the baddies have combat pools too. Use them if you have to to keep
things even. Even if they go for a called shot to negate the armor, well that
means they have to use a called shot. Also don't forget about the recoil,
which I believe is almost completely uncompensated in an Ares Viper Slivergun.

Great gun but it's also got plenty going against it.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 16:25:01 2001
David Lowe writes:

> Has anyone else had a problem with the Ares Viper? It has a listed damage
> code of 9S, which puts it a 12D in burst-fire mode. Regardless of the
> flechette factor, I've always had a serious problem with a 12D weapon that
> can be concealed under a jacket.

Well, I've never actually had much of a problem with it, no. It does 9M as
a base damage code. It can ONLY fire flechette ammo, which makes it's
damage code a 9S(f). Note that this is actually a real problem sometimes -
the weapon is incapable of using any other ammo types. It is SA/BF (IIRC),
which means that bursted it can become 12D(f). Most targets have enough
Impact armour to reduce the Power to a reasonable level (remember they get
twice Impact or normal Ballistic, which ever is higher). Also, if they have
Dermal Armour, they negate the Damage Level increase. The weapon has an
integral silencer, which actually makes it very useful, but at the same time
means that a gas vent cannot be installed, meaning that unless all your PCs
are really strong Trolls, then they will have to cope with recoil
modifiers.

What I am trying to say, I guess, is that the Ares Viper Sliver Gun is a
specialist weapon. It is _extremely_ good at what it does and at what it
was designed for, but it is utterly unversatile and of practically zero
value in most other circumstances. You just need to challenge your players
with different types and styles of shadowruns - they'll soon realise that
Viper Sliver Guns are pretty useless against someone with 5 points of Impact
armour, or a bunch of Troll gangers who have dermal armour, or against
multiple targets when recoil penalties start racking up.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Lowe)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 17:35:01 2001
>David Lowe writes:.
>
>What I am trying to say, I guess, is that the Ares Viper Sliver Gun is a
>specialist weapon. It is _extremely_ good at what it does and at what it
>was designed for, but it is utterly unversatile and of practically zero
>value in most other circumstances. You just need to challenge your players
>with different types and styles of shadowruns - they'll soon realise that
>Viper Sliver Guns are pretty useless against someone with 5 points of Impact
>armour, or a bunch of Troll gangers who have dermal armour, or against
>multiple targets when recoil penalties start racking up.

HmmŠthe issue here was not with my abilities to challenge my players,
but thanks for the advice.

No, my issue is with giving players a weapon they could walk down the
street without drawing attention to them, that they could use to
shred anything they might meet under those circumstances. If they are
planning to run up against real hardboys, they bring the real toys. I
was just curious if other GMs had chosen to limit that particular
weapon.

D.
--
David Lowe
The Milk Farm
A Design Collaborative
david@***********.com
http://www.themilkfarm.com

Try a glass. It'll change your life.
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 17:45:01 2001
In a message dated 3/26/2001 3:39:18 PM Mountain Standard Time,
david@*********.com writes:

> No, my issue is with giving players a weapon they could walk down the
> street without drawing attention to them, that they could use to
> shred anything they might meet under those circumstances. If they are
> planning to run up against real hardboys, they bring the real toys. I
> was just curious if other GMs had chosen to limit that particular
> weapon.

I'd say if they walk down the street just blasting away randomly like that
then one of the times have them do it in front of a live videocamera or worse
yet...right in front of an armed and armored Lone Star cop who doesn't take
kindly to such things.

But beyond that, like the other person said...it's a specialist weapon. It's
meant to be used I'd say primarily as an assassin's tool. So of course it
would be deadly. But FASA tried to offset that by making the recoil almost
impossible to deal with if they want that deadly damage. If you think about
it, you've got the same problems with shotguns...which can also be hid if
they wear a trenchcoat.

One somewhat unorthodox method I have for dealing with this myself is to
discourage multiple characters from carrying around the same firearms.
Instead I have them choose a firearm that would be suited to their character.
Like a wannabe cowboy would probably carry a revolver or two and a shotgun.
Typically the only people I ever see with the Slivergun are elven assassins.
Which I only have one of those in my group, but rather than the Viper she has
a pair of customized machine pistols. (really unbalancing stats, but
perfectly legal...and usually for the stuff I throw them up against they need
it. as for regular street encounters - say with a local gang or something -
well my feelings are that they should be professionals to be feared anyway.
if a gang starts something I make sure they're reasonably well armed for a
gang but make no qualms about if the runners happen to have the ability,
talents, and tools to carve through the gangers like hot butter!)
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 18:35:01 2001
The Ares Viper Slivergun is probably the best pistol in the game.
It's silenced, holds 30 rounds, is burst-capable, and does the
aforementioned 12D in burst mode. The only problem with it (there is
only one problem, as far as I'm concerned) is the recoil. However,
it's easily managed as a smartlink & a simple action for aiming will
negate the recoil penalties (it's a rare day when I actually fire
twice in any given initiative pass).

When I first looked over the SR2 rules way back inna day, I noticed
this right off and proceeded to stun my gaming group with it. Sure,
even the standard Lone Star cop wears an armor vest with plates and a
leather jacket for 5 points of impact armor, but even if you give said
cop a threat rating of 4 and 6 body, he's still going to be having
trouble staging down 12D + however many successes the shooter had.
Anything less than 5 points of impact armor and the odds of the target
surviving will drop quick. The weapon is simply amazing.

Let's see if I can find any downsides other than recoil...

Ammo cost (10 nuyen a shot, 30 nuyen a burst)

That's it. There are no more downsides to it. Here's a few more
upsides though. It is very concealable (6), it's relatively cheap
(600), both it and the ammo have low availability, and it is one of
the only burst fire weapons that you can have a permit for! That last
bit right there takes the cake as far as I'm concerned. You can't
even get a permit for machine pistols that do far less damage.

So if I had to do anything, I'd change that last bit. If it's burst
fire, you shouldn't be able to get a permit for it (the Thunderbolt,
the FN5-7, and the Guardian also fall into this category). By messing
around with the legality of the weapon, you can change the desire of
players to have it around all the time without making the gun weaker
than it was published ("I'm sorry, sir... I can't let you in the
club/restaurant/building with any illegal weapons. I'd let you in if
I could say you showed me a permit or something, but that's a bit of a
stretch. If I let you in with those, I'd get fired for sure.")

Also, you could give them a taste of their own medicine. Like sending
a small gang of trolls with pool cues after the physad who just can't
stop himself from knocking out everyone who gets lippy with him
(friends in melee and reach mods... it just gets ugly), having the
players go up against something as lethal as the Viper should let them
know what they're doing. If that doesn't scare 'em, I don't know what
will.

Finally, they can and should develop a rep as runners who *will* kill
you. If they only carry Vipers and always carry Vipers, then word
should get around. If someone does decide to take the characters out,
he'll know his life is on the line and will prepare/fight like it.
Most street types would probably rather run than deal with them (not
to mention the increased likelihood of being sold out) and contacts
will become wary of the group that'll draw Vipers at the drop of a
hat. All sorts of problems there...
--
Bob Ooton
<rbooton@*****.edu>
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 19:55:00 2001
In a message dated 3/26/01 5:39:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
david@*********.com writes:

> No, my issue is with giving players a weapon they could walk down the
> street without drawing attention to them, that they could use to
> shred anything they might meet under those circumstances. If they are
> planning to run up against real hardboys, they bring the real toys. I
> was just curious if other GMs had chosen to limit that particular
> weapon.

Please note, the flechette's stage up the damage only vs. unarmored target's.
So if the target has any kind of armor it's 12S, resisted with either
ballistic or double impact.
That being said, I don't like the gun, and don't allow it in the game. The
high ammo capacity and silencer are the problems for me, not so much the
flechette.
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Mar 26 21:15:01 2001
> No, my issue is with giving players a weapon they could walk down the
> street without drawing attention to them, that they could use to
> shred anything they might meet under those circumstances. If they are
> planning to run up against real hardboys, they bring the real toys. I
> was just curious if other GMs had chosen to limit that particular
> weapon.

We've done one thing to completely "fix" the weapon. The 9S(f) is the
burst-fire damage, which is considered the norm while using the weapon,
thus making its base damage 6M(f) or, if it wasn't using flechette,
6L... just like the other machine pistols. Its concealability and ammo
capacity is on par with machine pistols, and with this change, so is the
damage. The only real difference is the integral silencer and the
improved range (which is why its listed as a Heavy Pistol -- a strange
method FASA used when assigning weapons it seems). But this is
countered by the fact that it has no recoil compensation, an inability
to throw a gas-vent on it (because of the integral silencer), and the
fact that it can only use flechette ammo.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 00:15:01 2001
> The Ares Viper Slivergun is probably the best pistol in the game.
It's silenced, holds 30 rounds, is burst-capable, and does the
aforementioned 12D in burst mode.

Wasn't there a big ol' argument about a year ago about how the 9S was
already burst-fire modified?

And can you get flechette ammo for any gun, or just those marked with
the (f)?

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 02:30:01 2001
"Bob Ooton" <rbooton@*****.edu> wrote:

> The Ares Viper Slivergun is probably the best pistol in the game.
> It's silenced, holds 30 rounds, is burst-capable, and does the
> aforementioned 12D in burst mode. The only problem with it (there is
> only one problem, as far as I'm concerned) is the recoil. However,
> it's easily managed as a smartlink & a simple action for aiming will
> negate the recoil penalties (it's a rare day when I actually fire
> twice in any given initiative pass).
>
> When I first looked over the SR2 rules way back inna day, I noticed
> this right off and proceeded to stun my gaming group with it. Sure,
> even the standard Lone Star cop wears an armor vest with plates and a
> leather jacket for 5 points of impact armor, but even if you give said
> cop a threat rating of 4 and 6 body, he's still going to be having
> trouble staging down 12D + however many successes the shooter had.
> Anything less than 5 points of impact armor and the odds of the target
> surviving will drop quick. The weapon is simply amazing.
>
> Let's see if I can find any downsides other than recoil...
>

How about this for a downside:

"Against UNARMORED targets (emphasis mine), flechette rounds increase their
damage by one level...." and ..."For the target's armor rating, use either
double it's impact or its regular ballistic rating, whichever is
igher..." -[Page 93 SR2, Page 116 SR3]

I'd call that a major downside. Sure, you can pull a 12D(f) burst. If the
target is wearing a standard Armor Jacket (5/3) that 12D(f) turns into a
6S(f) to resist. If the target is smart, and like many of my players, and
wears Form-fitting armor underneath that, or a Vest (4/2), that can be
staged down even more to a 4S(f).

If they decide to take on someone more heavily armored...good luck.

My players learned very early on that reliance on any specific
weapon/item/spell would be costly. The golden rule of GMing (at least as far
as my players are concerned) is:

"What the players can do, so can the GM. (And the Bad Guys have more
money!)"


Zebulin



> Ammo cost (10 nuyen a shot, 30 nuyen a burst)
>
> That's it. There are no more downsides to it. Here's a few more
> upsides though. It is very concealable (6), it's relatively cheap
> (600), both it and the ammo have low availability, and it is one of
> the only burst fire weapons that you can have a permit for! That last
> bit right there takes the cake as far as I'm concerned. You can't
> even get a permit for machine pistols that do far less damage.
>
> So if I had to do anything, I'd change that last bit. If it's burst
> fire, you shouldn't be able to get a permit for it (the Thunderbolt,
> the FN5-7, and the Guardian also fall into this category). By messing
> around with the legality of the weapon, you can change the desire of
> players to have it around all the time without making the gun weaker
> than it was published ("I'm sorry, sir... I can't let you in the
> club/restaurant/building with any illegal weapons. I'd let you in if
> I could say you showed me a permit or something, but that's a bit of a
> stretch. If I let you in with those, I'd get fired for sure.")
>
> Also, you could give them a taste of their own medicine. Like sending
> a small gang of trolls with pool cues after the physad who just can't
> stop himself from knocking out everyone who gets lippy with him
> (friends in melee and reach mods... it just gets ugly), having the
> players go up against something as lethal as the Viper should let them
> know what they're doing. If that doesn't scare 'em, I don't know what
> will.
>
> Finally, they can and should develop a rep as runners who *will* kill
> you. If they only carry Vipers and always carry Vipers, then word
> should get around. If someone does decide to take the characters out,
> he'll know his life is on the line and will prepare/fight like it.
> Most street types would probably rather run than deal with them (not
> to mention the increased likelihood of being sold out) and contacts
> will become wary of the group that'll draw Vipers at the drop of a
> hat. All sorts of problems there...
> --
> Bob Ooton
> <rbooton@*****.edu>
>


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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 07:20:01 2001
--- Arclight <arclight@*********.de> wrote: >
> Von David Lowe :
>
> <snip>
>
> IIRC, 9S is the Damage code for a 3-rnd burst...
>
> Arclight

Nope. A Viper is 9S base (counting flechette bonus),
12D burst. With any armour it's 9M, 12S, minus the
armour.

But it's easy to deal with Vipers. I know - I used to
be one of those crazed, carry two Vipers guys. ANY
armour, even just dermal plating, cancels out the
flechette effect. Secondly, Vipers are, as someone has
already pointed out, specialty guns. A basic armoured
jacket will reduce a burst from 12D to 6S. Add in a
helmet and that 12D drops to 2S. A regular heavy
pistol would be doing 3M. Add in explosive, or EX Exp
(or even better, APDS), and you're doing 4M, 5M or 6M.
Also, as someone has pointed out, the Viper has no
recoil compensation. Of course, you can add on a gas
vent, but then it's not as concealable anymore, and
someone might just spot it. :)

Whatever works for you, bub, but I don't think they're
so much of a threat that you need to modify their
stats.

Btw, why not try sending your players into a situation
or two where their Vipers are useless? Have them do a
job at an SCA meeting, like we were talking about a
while back. They'll be running into a bunch of guys in
plate armour, carrying shields - their Vipers won't do
squat against them, but regular bullets would punch on
through. Similarly, if they go up against heavily
armoured sec guards (even just that armour jacket and
helmet scenario I pointed out above) - regular weapons
with specialty ammo would perform much better there,
but those Vipers can only fire flechettes.

If you REALLY feel the need to modify the guns,
though, here's what I'd do - make firing bursts a
complex action - bring them in line with the Savalette
Guardian and other BF-capable pistols (excluding the
Ruger Thunderbolt, of course). Suddenly they become a
lot less attractive.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 07:25:02 2001
According to David Lowe, on Mon, 26 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...

> Has anyone else had a problem with the Ares Viper? It has a listed
> damage code of 9S, which puts it a 12D in burst-fire mode. Regardless
> of the flechette factor, I've always had a serious problem with a 12D
> weapon that can be concealed under a jacket.

If you do take the flechette ammo into account, it's 12S against any
armored target, and they get more armor than against other BF-capable heavy
pistols, like the Savalette Guardian.

> Basically, all of my players were running around with these and
> tearing up everything in their way with little pocket cannons. To
> compensate, I've ruled that the burst-fire damage is 9S and the
> single shot is 6M. Fortunately, my players have plenty of other
> reasons to dislike me so they don't fixate on that.

I've reduced all heavy pistols' Power Levels by 3 in my game, putting most
at 6M. The Viper therefore causes 9S when firing a burst, or 9D if the
flechette effects are included. This works pretty well, IMHO, but it is
often pointed out whenever I mention this that it makes heavy pistols
"useless." Whether that's true or not depends on your campaign, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 08:40:01 2001
David Lowe writes:

> No, my issue is with giving players a weapon they could walk down the
> street without drawing attention to them, that they could use to
> shred anything they might meet under those circumstances.

The same could be said of most heavy pistols, or even light pistols - very
few targets that they'll meet "on the street" would be able to resist 9M or
even 6L, especially considering that the shooter won't have to contend with
recoil modifiers from these weapons and will likely get two times or more
successes. I really do not see it as unbalanced, but each game is
different, so in some cases I suppose it may be.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 08:45:01 2001
oz@*****.net writes:

> We've done one thing to completely "fix" the weapon. The 9S(f) is the
> burst-fire damage, which is considered the norm while using the weapon,
> thus making its base damage 6M(f) or, if it wasn't using flechette,
> 6L...

In SR1 and SRII, the description of the weapon stated that it was a Light
Pistol with the range of a Heavy Pistol. Thus it could easily be argued
that the base damage of the weapon should be 6M(f), in line with Light
Pistol damage.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 08:45:04 2001
BD writes:

> And can you get flechette ammo for any gun, or just those marked with
> the (f)?

It is possible to use flechette ammo in any weapon, unless the weapon
description specifically prohibits its use. Weapons marked with a (f) use
flechette ammo by default.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 08:45:09 2001
[Rand Ratinac] writes:

> Also, as someone has pointed out, the Viper has no recoil compensation. Of
> course, you can add on a gas vent, but then it's not as concealable
> anymore, and someone might just spot it. :)

Actually, due to the integral silencer, it is not possible to mount gas
venting on the weapon at all.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 08:55:00 2001
Bob Ooton writes:

> However, it's easily managed as a smartlink & a simple action for aiming
> will negate the recoil penalties (it's a rare day when I actually fire
> twice in any given initiative pass).

OTOH, you'll now have a base TN of 4, whereas someone with a different heavy
pistol doing the same thing will have a base TN of 1... Alternatively, he
could fire twice needing 2's... This really makes a huge difference if
there are any other modifiers (and when aren't there, really?), as a +2 will
give you 6's, and the other guy 3's. Likely, he'll do more damage with a
regular heavy pistol than you will do with your much praised Viper, simply
because he'll hit (and you probably will not), and he'll hit with 4 times
the successes...

> Let's see if I can find any downsides other than recoil...
>
> Ammo cost (10 nuyen a shot, 30 nuyen a burst)

The gun can ONLY use flechette ammo, for one. This is a major disadvantage
in versatility.

Flechette ammo, as many people have pointed out, really sux against armoured
targets - it loses its +1 Damage Level bonus, and it goes against twice
Impact.

If you always burst fire the weapon, it essentially only has a clip of 10,
which is somewhat low for a heavy pistol (most have 15 or so). You'll run
out of ammo faster.

> <snip good ideas for employing turnarounds on PCs>

If the PCs are smart enough to realise the advantages of a Viper, then there
will be plenty of NPCs who will understand this too... Not only that, but
there will probably be plenty of NPCs who understand the disadvantages of
them, too, and who will be smart enough to take measures to exploit them.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Kal Thrax)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 12:50:01 2001
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: shadowrn@*********.com
>Subject: Re: 'Nother gun question
>Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:27:00 +0200
>
>According to David Lowe, on Mon, 26 Mar 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > Has anyone else had a problem with the Ares Viper? It has a listed
> > damage code of 9S, which puts it a 12D in burst-fire mode. Regardless
> > of the flechette factor, I've always had a serious problem with a 12D
> > weapon that can be concealed under a jacket.
>
Just a thought has anyon taken into consideration the fact that since it is
flechette is has a spread pattern,not unlike a shotgun only smaller. Anyone
ever hurd of varmit shot for your pistols now adays. So you might think
occisionaly the pcs, if all the use is flechette, will shoot each other alot
in those dark small allyways, sewers etc...

Plus i think its obvous that the 9S dam code already adds in the burst
otherwise shotguns that are listed as 9S sut got a whole lot nastier.....


KaL
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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 13:40:01 2001
Kal Thrax wrote:

> Just a thought has anyon taken into consideration the fact that since it
> is flechette is has a spread pattern,not unlike a shotgun only smaller.
> Anyone ever hurd of varmit shot for your pistols now adays. So you might
> think occisionaly the pcs, if all the use is flechette, will shoot each
> other alot in those dark small allyways, sewers etc...

I've thought about this (particularly after some poking around with
regards to existing flechette ammunition), but never came to a
decision. A lot would depend on how many flechettes are packed in the
round.


> Plus i think its obvous that the 9S dam code already adds in the burst
> otherwise shotguns that are listed as 9S sut got a whole lot nastier.....

Umm... Shotguns that do 9S *do* 9S. That's for one round, loaded with
slug. Strangely enough,a .730 caliber slug (that is, 12-gauge) leaves
one hell of a hole in something. Three of them will leave a really big
hole. And shot will chew up a *lot* of what ever you shot at.

Nevertheless, I'm (now) of the opinion that the Viper's damage code
only makes sense if it figures on a 3-round burst. Still, that's a
house ruling, not anything official. I think the classification of the
Viper as a Heavy Pistol is a bit sketchy, and is probably what causes
most of the problems. I imagine the reasoning was that Heavy Pistols
do 9M, or 9S(f), and the Viper does that in burst, so... *shrug*

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 14:35:01 2001
Alright, I'm officially embarassed here and need to admit that I've
been... urgh... wrong for a long time. Wow. Not that I'm the only
one, my whole group went with the flechette damage increase across the
board (even against armored opponents), but I was off on how
flechettes were handled.

That said, I guess I never took too long a look at the flechette rules
and thank those of you who did so for pointing that out to me. The
Viper's game balance has been restored.

12S against double impact puts it on par if not beneath guns such as
the Thunderbolt and Savalette, while its ammo capacity and
concealability make it a little better. All in all, the gun probably
still has a slight advantage over its peers in the burst-fire heavy
pistol market, but it isn't a huge one in my game anymore.

As for using something like a Predator II instead of the Viper, I've
usually maintained use of both (well, the Browning Ultra-Power is my
*true* favorite semi-auto, but the character that used the Viper first
used this combo). The Predator got gel rounds and the Viper did its
thing with flechettes. Gives the option of extremely lethal or more
accurate/non-lethal damage, which is nice. Now that Vipers will be
"normal" again (and again, I thank you guys for that), I'd have to
rethink the greatness (or even intelligence) of that pairing...

Wrong for so many years... urgh.
--
Bob Ooton
<rbooton@*****.edu>
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 14:50:01 2001
John Pederson wrote:

> Kal Thrax wrote:
>
>> Just a thought has anyon taken into consideration the fact that since
>> it is flechette is has a spread pattern,not unlike a shotgun only
>> smaller. Anyone ever hurd of varmit shot for your pistols now adays.
>> So you might think occisionaly the pcs, if all the use is flechette,
>> will shoot each other alot in those dark small allyways, sewers etc...
>
> I've thought about this (particularly after some poking around with
> regards to existing flechette ammunition), but never came to a decision.
> A lot would depend on how many flechettes are packed in the round.

SR makes a distinction between flechette and shot rounds, despite
similar properties damage-wise and pricing/availability. Only shot
rounds apply spread rules. See pg. 113 in SR3 for more info.
--
Bob Ooton
<rbooton@*****.edu>
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 14:55:01 2001
Bob Ooton wrote:
>
> 12S against double impact puts it on par if not beneath guns such as
> the Thunderbolt and Savalette, while its ammo capacity and
> concealability make it a little better. All in all, the gun probably
> still has a slight advantage over its peers in the burst-fire heavy
> pistol market, but it isn't a huge one in my game anymore.

Speaking from a purely min/max point of view, gimme a Savalette Guardian
over a Slivergun any day. Carry a couple of spare clips with flechette,
APDS, gel, and capsule (DMSO/Hyer), plus a removable silencer, and you
have a much more diverse weapon at your disposal.

Besides, if you need more than four shots at any one time (the number of
burst-fire shots you can make with the Savalette without an extended
clip), you're probably up against opponents with armor that the
Slivergun's ammo capacity would be useless against (who cares if you can
squeeze off 10 BF shots if all of them just ping off the other guy). At
least the guy with the Guardian can change clips to something more
effective, while Slivergun-boy is SOL.

(And, besides, what kind of runner would be stupid enough to take a
Thunderbolt over a Guardian? Not only is it a certain Lone Star magnet,
but it costs more and is less versatile [no SA mode]. Bleh.)
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (kawaii)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 15:05:04 2001
From: <oz@*****.net>
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2001 14:53


> (And, besides, what kind of runner would be stupid enough to take a
> Thunderbolt over a Guardian? Not only is it a certain Lone Star magnet,
> but it costs more and is less versatile [no SA mode]. Bleh.)
>

Along that line of thinking, what kind of runner would take a Guardian over
a Colt or an Ares? Everyone knows that Guardians are signature weapons of
bodyguards and all that flashy chrome? eh. How am I suppose to be dark and
mysterious with a shiny weapon? =P

I tend to have my NPCs mock those players with Guardians. While statwise,
the Guardian is a great weapon, socially, (in my world at least) it seems to
be on the showy side. Hardly a proper weapon for a "real" runner. ;)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 15:15:01 2001
kawaii wrote:
>
> Along that line of thinking, what kind of runner would take a Guardian over
> a Colt or an Ares? Everyone knows that Guardians are signature weapons of
> bodyguards and all that flashy chrome? eh. How am I suppose to be dark and
> mysterious with a shiny weapon? =P
>
> I tend to have my NPCs mock those players with Guardians. While statwise,
> the Guardian is a great weapon, socially, (in my world at least) it seems to
> be on the showy side. Hardly a proper weapon for a "real" runner. ;)

There's a difference between the way a weapon looks, and how it sounds.
If you're using a weapon that can be heard from blocks away, and will
immediately have every Lone Star officer swarming down upon you, you're
not a very good 'runner. :) On the other hand, carrying around what is
described as a popular weapon, albeit it a stylish and chromed one,
isn't that big a deal.

Of course, I personally prefer the Colt Manhunter (though I wish these
guns didn't have such crappy names) when I game. But that's just me.
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 15:35:01 2001
oz@*****.net wrote:

> Bob Ooton wrote:
>
>> 12S against double impact puts it on par if not beneath guns such as
>> the Thunderbolt and Savalette, while its ammo capacity and
>> concealability make it a little better. All in all, the gun probably
>> still has a slight advantage over its peers in the burst-fire heavy
>> pistol market, but it isn't a huge one in my game anymore.
>
> Speaking from a purely min/max point of view, gimme a Savalette Guardian
> over a Slivergun any day. Carry a couple of spare clips with flechette,
> APDS, gel, and capsule (DMSO/Hyer), plus a removable silencer, and you
> have a much more diverse weapon at your disposal.

Complex action burst means no aiming round (one point of RC makes it
moot, however, in burst fire mode), and it only holds 12 rounds - a
drawback if you ever intend to fire bursts.

As far as ammo goes, we go pretty strictly by the availability rules,
so you won't always be able to get a clip of APDS (TN 14 will get you
ten rounds, can only check every once every 14 days, and has a street
value of 28 nuyen per bullet). Not to mention the sheer cost of
getting even 12 rounds of said Capsule ammo (@**** nuyen) and the
rolls needed to get that amount (12 successes at TN 2 for DMSO and 12
successes at TN 4 for Hyper).


> Besides, if you need more than four shots at any one time (the number of
> burst-fire shots you can make with the Savalette without an extended
> clip), you're probably up against opponents with armor that the
> Slivergun's ammo capacity would be useless against (who cares if you can
> squeeze off 10 BF shots if all of them just ping off the other guy). At
> least the guy with the Guardian can change clips to something more
> effective, while Slivergun-boy is SOL.

If facing a guy in hardened armor with a value of or over 9, you're
screwed no matter what you go with if it's anything less than an
assault cannon, a sniper rifle, a laser, or other appropriate military
measure. I recommend running for anyone at that point.


> (And, besides, what kind of runner would be stupid enough to take a
> Thunderbolt over a Guardian? Not only is it a certain Lone Star magnet,
> but it costs more and is less versatile [no SA mode]. Bleh.)

Costs more, less versatile, but it's so fraggin' COOL!!! Not all
runners are the consummate professionals 24/7 that we like to think of
our own characters as being (well, more often than not anyway). We're
talking about street criminals here.

You can also go with the laser sight on a Thunderbolt (which is nice
for those non-smartlinked types) and it has no recoil mods on the
first burst! With laser sight, vision mag 3, and one simple action of
aiming, you get 12S damage with a base TN of 2. I like that. =)

It has the same ammo problems as the Savalette (worse, probably,
because it only fires bursts), as well as the aforementioned tendency
to draw unnecessary heat from Lone Star. Those are some pretty big
downsides, but as a runner on a run (not carrying a piece for
protection on the street, but actually doing a job) it would be very
smart to have something this powerful around. My vote goes to the
Thunderbolt.
--
Bob Ooton
<rbooton@*****.edu>
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 16:30:01 2001
Bob Ooton wrote:

> John Pederson wrote:
>> I've thought about this (particularly after some poking around with
>> regards to existing flechette ammunition), but never came to a
>> decision. A lot would depend on how many flechettes are packed in the
>> round.
>
> SR makes a distinction between flechette and shot rounds, despite
> similar properties damage-wise and pricing/availability. Only shot
> rounds apply spread rules. See pg. 113 in SR3 for more info.

Actually, I'm at least passing familiar with SR's rules (both the
current and immediately previous edition), so I was already aware of
the official stance. I hadn't intended that to sound as though I were
debating an intepretation of the existing rules (which are relatively
clear). Rather, I'm thinking about possible house rules, on the chance
that I might find myself running a campaign again in the near-ish
future. Sorry.

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 17:50:01 2001
At 01:39 PM 27/03/01 -0500, John Pederson wrote:

>Nevertheless, I'm (now) of the opinion that the Viper's damage code
>only makes sense if it figures on a 3-round burst. Still, that's a
>house ruling, not anything official. I think the classification of the
>Viper as a Heavy Pistol is a bit sketchy, and is probably what causes
>most of the problems. I imagine the reasoning was that Heavy Pistols
>do 9M, or 9S(f), and the Viper does that in burst, so... *shrug*

But the Viper's not a BF-only weapon; it's SA/BF as I recall. _Every single
other weapon_ has its BASE damage listed; the minimum you can do if you
pull the trigger. For BF-only weapons (like the Thunderbolt) they list the
base damage of one burst. For SA and SA/BF and SA/BF/FA weapons, they list
the damage of one round. There is NO reason why that would be different for
the Viper.

Now, if you want to reduce the Viper's effectiveness because you think it's
too powerful in your game, fine, go right ahead. But don't try and make out
that that's what the canon rules say, because I think it's pretty clear
they don't.

Just MHO, of course...

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 17:50:04 2001
At 03:06 PM 27/03/01 -0500, kawaii wrote:
>
>I tend to have my NPCs mock those players with Guardians. While statwise,
>the Guardian is a great weapon, socially, (in my world at least) it seems to
>be on the showy side. Hardly a proper weapon for a "real" runner. ;)

It's a great gun. Surely carrying it (and effectively making the statement
of "I don't care what you think about my image, I'm choosing the most
efficient tools for the job. This may look overly flashy, but it's what I
need to get the job done") is a more easily respected behaviour than
picking a gun because it *looks* "professional"? ;-)

I'd have my PC turn around and say to a mocking NPC "Well, hey, if looks
matter more to you than the effectiveness of your weapons, go ahead and
laugh at me", and watch them shut up right quick. ;-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 19:40:01 2001
From: Lady Jestyr
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 12:49 AM

> But the Viper's not a BF-only weapon; it's SA/BF as I recall.
> _Every single
> other weapon_ has its BASE damage listed; the minimum you can do if you
> pull the trigger. For BF-only weapons (like the Thunderbolt) they list the
> base damage of one burst. For SA and SA/BF and SA/BF/FA weapons, they list
> the damage of one round. There is NO reason why that would be
> different for
> the Viper.

hm... the UZI 3 has only BF too, and it's damage code is listed as 6M, if
that would already have the burst mods figured in the UZI would have a base
damage of 3L ...

> ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

I've been wondering for months... but what the hell (which has no fury...)
is a whippersnipper ?

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
------ www.neosophia.exit.de -----
"And nothing can we call our own but death
And that small model of the barren earth
Which serves as paste and cover to our bones.
For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings."
William Shakespeare
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (David Lowe)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 20:00:01 2001
At 8:54 AM +1000 3/28/01, Lady Jestyr wrote:

>It's a great gun. Surely carrying it (and effectively making the statement
>of "I don't care what you think about my image, I'm choosing the most
>efficient tools for the job. This may look overly flashy, but it's what I
>need to get the job done") is a more easily respected behaviour than
>picking a gun because it *looks* "professional"? ;-)
>
>I'd have my PC turn around and say to a mocking NPC "Well, hey, if looks
>matter more to you than the effectiveness of your weapons, go ahead and
>laugh at me", and watch them shut up right quick. ;-)
>

That's funny. My shaman PC almost always carries around her HK, and
uses it when she can because "it looks cool". Never mind she's a much
better spell caster than a gunfighter.

Of course this is also the same PC who missed the better part of a
run because she was busy playing PSX and "forgot". (Ok, so I don't
play the most responsible of charactersŠ)

D.
--
David Lowe
The Milk Farm
A Design Collaborative
david@***********.com
http://www.themilkfarm.com

Try a glass. It'll change your life.
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 21:20:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Wasn't there a big ol' argument about a year ago
about how the 9S was already burst-fire modified?

There may have been. Anyone who argued that the 9S IS
modified for burst fire was wrong though.

Simply put, the standard has always been for a
weapon's SA or SS damage code to be listed. That's
even the case with weapons such as the Uzi III and
Ingram Smartgun, which aren't capable of SA fire. The
sole exception to this rule is the Ruger Thunderbolt.
So if the Viper says 9S(f), that's its SA damage.

> And can you get flechette ammo for any gun, or
just those marked with the (f)?
> -Boondocker

Any gun can fire any ammunition, including flechette,
unless otherwise noted. If you check the description
for the Viper, it notes that it can only fire
flechette. If you check the description for the
Morrissey Elan (at least, I think it's that one - one
of the flashy hold-outs), it notes that it CAN'T fire flechette.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 21:45:02 2001
> > Also, as someone has pointed out, the Viper has no
recoil compensation. Of course, you can add on a gas
vent, but then it's not as concealable anymore, and
someone might just spot it. :)
>
> Actually, due to the integral silencer, it is not
possible to mount gas venting on the weapon at all.
> Damion Milliken

Says who?

Reality?

Oh, sure, you can't REALLY mount a gas vent and a
silencer.

Since when has that had any effect on a game? :)

There's NOTHING in SR that states that the Viper can't
mount a gas vent, so unless GMs actually prohibit it,
you'll get players trying to do it. I know I used to.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shane Hyde)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 21:55:01 2001
> There's NOTHING in SR that states that the Viper can't
> mount a gas vent, so unless GMs actually prohibit it,
> you'll get players trying to do it. I know I used to.

A gas vent relies on the gases behind the projectile to be vented upwards as
thrust to stop the barrel from lifting.

A silencer takes those gases and disperses them in an orderly fashion -
mostly by slowing the gases after the bullet has achieved it's muzzle
velocity.

If you have a vent on a silenced gun, it won't have any effect, as the gases
are dispersed.

If you have a silencer on a vented gun, it won't have any effect, as the
gases have already exploded out before reaching the silencer chamber.

Simple enough. A foresight that lots of players exploit in order to keep
their target numbers low.

Shane
(Not a ballistics expert - but I've fired enough weaponry in my life to know
how these things work in practice)
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 22:00:01 2001
> There's NOTHING in SR that states that the Viper can't
> mount a gas vent, so unless GMs actually prohibit it,
> you'll get players trying to do it. I know I used to.

You can't have two barrel-mounted accessories on the same weapon, by the
rules. A silencer, be it removable or integral, is barrel-mounted. A
gas-vent is barrel-mounted. The Viper Slivergun has a silencer. Thus
there is something in the rules that prohibits using a gas-vent on the
Viper SLivergun.
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 22:05:01 2001
In a message dated 3/27/01 9:59:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
shane@*******.co.nz writes:

> A gas vent relies on the gases behind the projectile to be vented upwards as
> thrust to stop the barrel from lifting.
>
> A silencer takes those gases and disperses them in an orderly fashion -
> mostly by slowing the gases after the bullet has achieved it's muzzle
> velocity.
>
> If you have a vent on a silenced gun, it won't have any effect, as the
gases
> are dispersed.
>

Yeah, doc acknowledges Reality :-)
Now, go on to explain the Ranger Arms SM-3's integral gas-vent silencer
combo? :-)
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 23:10:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> 12S against double impact puts it on par if not
beneath guns such as the Thunderbolt and Savalette,
while its ammo capacity and concealability make it a
little better. All in all, the gun probably still has
a slight advantage over its peers in the burst-fire
heavy pistol market, but it isn't a huge one in my
game anymore.
<snipt!(TM)>
> Bob Ooton

Actually, Bob, in a straight spitting contest, the
Thunderbolt gets my vote. What other pistol can match
a sniper rifle for damage (using EX Exp, of course)?
Also, it suffers less from recoil, and you definitely
CAN give it a gas vent. Mod it up to carry a larger
clip (yes, the CC rules let you do that) and Bob's
yer...huh. Whatever.

;)

Of course, the Thunderbolt has other problems (such as
Lone Star breathing down your neck whenever you fire
it), but like I said - straight spitting contest.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 23:50:01 2001
> If facing a guy in hardened armor with a value of or over 9, you're
screwed no matter what you go with if it's anything less than an
assault cannon, a sniper rifle, a laser, or other appropriate military
measure. I recommend running for anyone at that point.

Except a magician. Armour just don't matter then. And maybe a
called shot with a DMSO concoction could bypass the armour.

> You can also go with the laser sight on a Thunderbolt (which is nice
for those non-smartlinked types) and it has no recoil mods on the first
burst! With laser sight, vision mag 3, and one simple action of
aiming, you get 12S damage with a base TN of 2. I like that. =)

Yeah, the Thunderbolt's got the advantage over the Guardian there. A
simple action means you get to aim in your turn, which is nice.

> It has the same ammo problems as the Savalette (worse, probably,
because it only fires bursts), as well as the aforementioned tendency
to draw unnecessary heat from Lone Star.

Unless you're somewhere where Lone Star ain't, like Germany, Detroit,
or Hong Kong. The GM could of course rule that ANY law enforcement
agency's gonna have a problem with that particular gun, but I don't
think the Guardian's going to make them any happier :)

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Mar 27 23:55:01 2001
Lady Jestyr wrote:

> But the Viper's not a BF-only weapon; it's SA/BF as I recall.

That would be correct.

> Every single
> other weapon_ has its BASE damage listed; the minimum you can do if you
> pull the trigger. For BF-only weapons (like the Thunderbolt) they list the
> base damage of one burst.

Actually, the Thunderbolt's the exception, rather than the rule.

> For SA and SA/BF and SA/BF/FA weapons, they list
> the damage of one round. There is NO reason why that would be different for
> the Viper.

All rules-lawyering aside (I appreciate the effort, folks, but I *do*
own this book, at least:),


> Now, if you want to reduce the Viper's effectiveness because you think it's
> too powerful in your game, fine, go right ahead. But don't try and make out
> that that's what the canon rules say, because I think it's pretty clear
> they don't.

I didn't say that rules state that Viper does 6M(f) on a single shot.
The rules, as they are, say pretty clearly that it does 9S(f), per
shot. They also used to say that it fired light pistol damage (they
don't now). What *I* said was:

> > Nevertheless, I'm (now) of the opinion that the Viper's damage
> > code only makes sense if it figures on a 3-round burst. Still,
> > that's a house ruling, not anything official

Please note that I *specifically* said it was a *house* ruling. I know
what the rules say (I've abused them enough myself in the past:)), and
I *really* didn't think I'd been that unclear.


> Just MHO, of course...

Yeah, just me spouting mine, too. I'm still allowed to have one, right?


Perplexed and confused in Terre Haute,

John Pederson
Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 00:05:01 2001
> > But the Viper's not a BF-only weapon; it's SA/BF
as I recall. _Every single other weapon_ has its BASE
damage listed; the minimum you can do if you pull the
trigger. For BF-only weapons (like the Thunderbolt)
they list the base damage of one burst. For SA and
SA/BF and SA/BF/FA weapons, they list the damage of
one round. There is NO reason why that would be
different for the Viper.
>
> hm... the UZI 3 has only BF too, and it's damage
code is listed as 6M, if that would already have the
burst mods figured in the UZI would have a base damage
of 3L ...
> -- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --

I look at it this way, TFC. ALL weapons have their SA
(or SS if that's their mode) damage code listed. The
ONLY exception is the Thunderbolt. The reason for that
is because it was first listed in the Lone Star
sourcebook (and it's the ONLY weapon listed there).
All weapons from the core books, or gear books, are
listed with their SA or SS damage code. As the Viper
is in a core book, the listed code is going to be the
damage code in SA mode.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Walter Scheper)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 00:05:05 2001
On 27 Mar 2001, at 18:46, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> > > Also, as someone has pointed out, the Viper has no
> recoil compensation. Of course, you can add on a gas
> vent, but then it's not as concealable anymore, and
> someone might just spot it. :)
> >
> > Actually, due to the integral silencer, it is not
> possible to mount gas venting on the weapon at all.
> > Damion Milliken
>
> Says who?
>
> Reality?
>
> Oh, sure, you can't REALLY mount a gas vent and a
> silencer.
>
> Since when has that had any effect on a game? :)
>
> There's NOTHING in SR that states that the Viper can't
> mount a gas vent, so unless GMs actually prohibit it,
> you'll get players trying to do it. I know I used to.
>
> ====> Doc'

Actually, yes there is. See a Silencer and a Gas-Vent are both barrel mounts.
According to CC, "Each gun frame can mount only one item in each possible
mounting location, whether internal or external" (CC p. 80). Since Silencers,
Suppressors and Gas-Vents are all Barrel mounts, they are exclusive. This is
true in the main rules as well, "Only one accessory can be attached to a
particular mount. Integral accessories take up mount locations" (Main, p. 280).

That is all
-Walter
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 00:15:01 2001
>> ~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

> I've been wondering for months... but what the hell (which has no
fury...) is a whippersnipper ?

Nor a weed-eater? A lawn-trimmer? A weed-whacker? A grass-blaster?
Never heard of any of those? More importantly, which one did I make up?

====-Boondocker

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Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 02:25:02 2001
[Rand Ratinac] writes:

> > Actually, due to the integral silencer, it is not possible to mount gas
> > venting on the weapon at all.
>
> Says who?
>
> Reality?
>
> Oh, sure, you can't REALLY mount a gas vent and a
> silencer.
>
> Since when has that had any effect on a game? :)
>
> There's NOTHING in SR that states that the Viper can't
> mount a gas vent, so unless GMs actually prohibit it,
> you'll get players trying to do it. I know I used to.

OTOH, there's nothing in the SR rules that say a character CANNOT jump off a
45 story building, flap their arms and fly to Swahili, land, greet a pink
elephant selling martian brewed vodka, drink some, and then clip their heels
together, think of home, and be transported via tornado to their doss in
downtown Seattle, either. Of course, things work differently in
practice... The SR universe is, at least mostly, modelled upon the real
world, and so probably should follow the physics that form reaility.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 02:25:07 2001
> You can't have two barrel-mounted accessories on the
same weapon, by the rules. A silencer, be it
removable or integral, is barrel-mounted. A gas-vent
is barrel-mounted. The Viper Slivergun has a
silencer. Thus there is something in the rules that
prohibits using a gas-vent on the Viper SLivergun.

I think you'll find an integral accessory doesn't take
up a mount unless explicitly noted.

S'pose I could be wrong, but that's always how I read it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (kawaii)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 02:40:01 2001
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 02:26


>
> OTOH, there's nothing in the SR rules that say a character CANNOT jump off
a
> 45 story building, flap their arms and fly to Swahili, land, greet a pink
> elephant selling martian brewed vodka, drink some, and then clip their
heels
> together, think of home, and be transported via tornado to their doss in
> downtown Seattle, either. Of course, things work differently in
> practice... The SR universe is, at least mostly, modelled upon the real
> world, and so probably should follow the physics that form reaility.

Dammit, there goes that meta-quest idea. Stay out of my head! =P

>
> --
> Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 06:50:01 2001
> > A gas vent relies on the gases behind the
projectile to be vented upwards as thrust to stop the
barrel from lifting.
> >
> > A silencer takes those gases and disperses them
in an orderly fashion - mostly by slowing the gases
after the bullet has achieved it's muzzle velocity.
> >
> > If you have a vent on a silenced gun, it won't
have any effect, as the gases are dispersed.
>
> Yeah, doc acknowledges Reality :-)
> Now, go on to explain the Ranger Arms SM-3's
integral gas-vent silencer combo? :-)

Well said, my freakish friend. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 06:55:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> > Just MHO, of course...
>
> Yeah, just me spouting mine, too. I'm still allowed
to have one, right?
> John Pederson

No, John, you're not.

Sheesh! Get with the program, bub!

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 07:00:01 2001
<snipt!(TM) gas vent mechanics>
> Shane
> (Not a ballistics expert - but I've fired enough
weaponry in my life to know how these things work in
practice)

Blah blah blah...

Sorry, Shane, not arguing about that. Now that I know
how gas vents work, I do understand why they wouldn't
work with a silencer. However, what I was saying is
that such a thing isn't spelled out in SR and there
are a LOT of people out there who WOULDN'T know that
about guns. So if they were GMing, their players COULD
have Vipers with gas vents.

Anyway, all that aside, I have a question about gas
vents. According to CC, gas vents, once added to a
weapon, can't be removed (presumably because they're
made by putting holes in the barrel, right?). However,
if that's the case...WHY DA F*** DO THEY COST FREAKIN'
CONCEALABILITY???

Ahem.

'Scuse me.

Seriously, if a gas vent isn't an attached thingy like
a silencer, why does it cost concealability? And if IS
an attached thingy, why can't it be removed? Makes no
sense to me.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 07:55:01 2001
Rand Ratinac wrote:

>> Yeah, just me spouting mine, too. I'm still allowed
>> to have one, right?
>

> No, John, you're not.
>
> Sheesh! Get with the program, bub!

Ah. Silly me. Whatever could I have been thinking? Thanks for setting
me straight.

--
John Pederson
pedersje@**.rose-hulman.edu
Message no. 52
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 08:05:01 2001
> Actually, yes there is. See a Silencer and a
Gas-Vent are both barrel mounts. According to CC,
"Each gun frame can mount only one item in each
possible mounting location, whether internal or
external" (CC
> p. 80). Since Silencers, Suppressors and Gas-Vents
are all Barrel mounts, they are exclusive. This is
true in the main rules as well, "Only one accessory
can be attached to a particular mount. Integral
accessories take up mount locations" (Main, p. 280).
> That is all
> -Walter

Oh, well, guess what I missed. ;)

Thanks for pointing that out, Walter.

No, really. Look. No sarcasm.

;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 53
From: shadowrn@*********.com (TexasFriedCriminal)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 08:55:00 2001
From: BD
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 7:18 AM

> > I've been wondering for months... but what the hell (which has no
> fury...) is a whippersnipper ?
>
> Nor a weed-eater?

I have my suspicions about that, something about arabian fanatics jumping
off high cliffs ;))

> A lawn-trimmer?

that sounds so... prosaic... :)

> A weed-whacker?

you made this one up ? :)

> A grass-blaster?

once again.... strange associations...

> Never heard of any of those? More importantly, which one did I make up?

I could have lived with a weed wacko .... :)

-- ^/_Texas - Fried - Criminal_\^ --
------ www.neosophia.exit.de -----
"And nothing can we call our own but death
And that small model of the barren earth
Which serves as paste and cover to our bones.
For God's sake, let us sit upon the ground
And tell sad stories of the death of kings."
William Shakespeare
Message no. 54
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 10:10:01 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> OTOH, there's nothing in the SR rules that say a
character CANNOT jump off a 45 story building, flap
their arms and fly to Swahili, land, greet a pink
elephant selling martian brewed vodka, drink some, and
then clip their heels together, think of home, and be
transported via tornado to their doss in downtown
Seattle, either. Of course, things work differently
in practice...

They do??

Damn!

> The SR universe is, at least mostly, modelled upon
the real world, and so probably should follow the
physics that form reaility.
> Damion Milliken

Yes, but as I said, Damion, there are likely to be a
hell of a lot of players and GMs out there who DON'T
know that having a gas vent and a silencer on the same
gun wouldn't work.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 55
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 23:00:01 2001
> >> Yeah, just me spouting mine, too. I'm still
allowed to have one, right?
>
> > No, John, you're not.
> >
> > Sheesh! Get with the program, bub!
>
> Ah. Silly me. Whatever could I have been thinking?
Thanks for setting me straight.
> John Pederson

*Doc' thwaps John across the back of the head...*

Did I SAY you could talk? DID I? I don't THINK so...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 56
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Wed Mar 28 23:35:02 2001
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> *Doc' thwaps John across the back of the head...*
>
> Did I SAY you could talk? DID I? I don't THINK so...

Yes, master... umm... Oh, damn.

*John points over Doc's shoulder*

Look, a tree! And it's bark looks real... err... rough?

*John _runs_*

--
John Pederson
Message no. 57
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lady Jestyr)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Thu Mar 29 05:35:01 2001
At 11:54 PM 27/03/01 -0500, John Pederson wrote:

> > > Nevertheless, I'm (now) of the opinion that the Viper's damage
> > > code only makes sense if it figures on a 3-round burst. Still,
> > > that's a house ruling, not anything official
>
>Please note that I *specifically* said it was a *house* ruling. I know
>what the rules say (I've abused them enough myself in the past:)), and
>I *really* didn't think I'd been that unclear.

Sorry. I didn't mean "you" as in you particularly; I just happened to be
replying to your post. I was referring more to those who seem to take the
position that the by-the-book rules refer to the Viper's BF damage being
9S(f), not the SA damage.

Cheers,

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://staff.dumpshock.com/jestyr *
Message no. 58
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Thu Mar 29 08:55:01 2001
> > *Doc' thwaps John across the back of the head...*
> >
> > Did I SAY you could talk? DID I? I don't THINK
so...
>
> Yes, master... umm... Oh, damn.
>
> *John points over Doc's shoulder*
>
> Look, a tree! And it's bark looks real... err...
rough?
>
> *John _runs_*

Hmmm...rough you say?

All right...I'll let it go...this time...

*Doc' wanders off with a dreamy look on his face...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 59
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Sun Apr 1 18:35:01 2001
I know this is a few days old, but I just caught up from three months
behind...

My take on the Viper is that is a machine pistol (6M(f) base) with heavy
pistol range (per the desc. in SR3), so it does burst of 9S(f). I think the
reason it is listed as 9S(f) in the first place is that it is placed in the
heavy pistol category due to the range, and someone was sloppy. With the
ammo capacity being so close to the other machine pistols, it makes perfect
sense. I doubt that this pistol could really exceed a shotgun blast of AK-97
burst (11S). I know that this may sound funny, (I AM a rules laywer after
all, ask my GM...) but typos happen.

Big Q
Message no. 60
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Iridios)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Sun Apr 1 20:05:01 2001
Trollrunner@***.com wrote:
>
> I know this is a few days old, but I just caught up from three months
> behind...
>
> My take on the Viper is that is a machine pistol (6M(f) base) with heavy
> pistol range (per the desc. in SR3), so it does burst of 9S(f). I think the
> reason it is listed as 9S(f) in the first place is that it is placed in the
> heavy pistol category due to the range, and someone was sloppy. With the
> ammo capacity being so close to the other machine pistols, it makes perfect
> sense. I doubt that this pistol could really exceed a shotgun blast of AK-97
> burst (11S). I know that this may sound funny, (I AM a rules laywer after
> all, ask my GM...) but typos happen.

I know that this has all been hashed and rehashed too many times to count
but....


Didn't FASA rule that the 9S(f) was the single round damage code. After all
it is taking flechette damage vs. unarmored targets into account, somewhat.
The rules for flechette say that a heavy pistol (9M) would become (9S(f)).
Of course this doesn't account for the description of it being a "light
pistol" (Omitted in 3ED) with heavy pistol ranges.

Iridios
Message no. 61
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Apr 2 09:35:01 2001
> I know this is a few days old, but I just caught up
from three months behind...
>
> My take on the Viper is that is a machine pistol
(6M(f) base) with heavy pistol range (per the desc. in
SR3), so it does burst of 9S(f). I think the reason
it is listed as 9S(f) in the first place is that it is
placed in the heavy pistol category due to the range,
and someone was sloppy. With the ammo capacity being
so close to the other machine pistols, it makes
perfect sense. I doubt that this pistol could really
exceed a shotgun blast of AK-97 burst (11S).

So? Heavy pistols have more penetrating power than an
assault rifle in SR, which is, as has been noted many
times on here, patently untrue. A Savalette Guardian
or Ruger Thunderbolt burst both exceed the damage of
an AK-97 burst. What's so hard to see about the Viper
doing the same?

> I know that this may sound funny, (I AM a rules
laywer after all, ask my GM...) but typos happen.

*snort*

For three editions and countless reprints? AND it's
never been addressed in offical errata?

I can't recall any other 'typo' that's been that persistent.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 62
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Mon Apr 2 20:15:01 2001
In a message dated 4/2/01 9:39:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> So? Heavy pistols have more penetrating power than an
> assault rifle in SR, which is, as has been noted many
> times on here, patently untrue. A Savalette Guardian
> or Ruger Thunderbolt burst both exceed the damage of
> an AK-97 burst. What's so hard to see about the Viper
> doing the same?
>

Though it's been discussed before, it still comes down to penetration and
damage resistance being based off the same number. Some people lower the
rating for heavy pistols, whereas I think rifles should be raised, or perhaps
another rating being used to help them go through armor. I prefer my guns to
be more deadly though, so it's a stylistic difference.
Also, once Animatronic Cthulhu is introduced into the game, I don't feel I
can make arguement's over realism with a few firearms :-)
(though, I still ban the Viper and the Remington Roomsweeper on personal
grounds, I don't try to tweak them until they satisfy me, then try to
convince the players...)

> > I know that this may sound funny, (I AM a rules
> laywer after all, ask my GM...) but typos happen.
>
> *snort*
>
> For three editions and countless reprints? AND it's
> never been addressed in offical errata?

Hey, in roleplaying games, such mistakes are not only possible I'd wager
they're common :-)
I was perusing the Wizards of the Coast boards, and there were people
demanding to be able to return their first run Players Handbooks for a fixed
second printing. DEMANDING. "you should replace all those already printed"
heck, before wide access to teh internet, I never saw an erratta, and I never
cared.
these kids now adays :-)
Message no. 63
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Apr 3 04:10:03 2001
Schizi@***.com writes:

> Also, once Animatronic Cthulhu is introduced into the game, I don't feel I
> can make arguement's over realism with a few firearms :-)

<confused look> "Animatronic Cthulhu"?

> (though, I still ban the Viper and the Remington Roomsweeper on personal
> grounds, I don't try to tweak them until they satisfy me, then try to
> convince the players...)

Hey, what's wrong the Roomsweeper? It _used_ to be more than a little too
concealable, but that's been fixed in 3rd Ed.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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M-- V- PS+ PE(-) Y+>++ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X++>+++ R+(++) !tv(--) b+ DI+++@
D G+ e++>++++$ h(*) r++ y-(--)
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Message no. 64
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: 'Nother gun question
Date: Tue Apr 3 19:45:01 2001
In a message dated 4/3/01 4:17:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dam01@***.edu.au
writes:

> <confused look> "Animatronic Cthulhu"?
>

Cthuhu, but, animatronic, ala Disney. How could you have a Call of Cthulhu
ride without a big robot Cthulhu?
And, how can you destroy Arkham, without said Cthulhu going on a murderous
rampage?

>
> Hey, what's wrong the Roomsweeper? It _used_ to be more than a little too
> concealable, but that's been fixed in 3rd Ed.

I just don't like it, it's just WRONGâ„¢

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Thwap!