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Message no. 1
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:56:23 -0400
Anjo Verde wrote:
>
> Actually, having read the three novels, I'd recommend to the Sr player to
> begin with Worlds Without End to keep a level of mystery about it.

Actually, having read only the third novel, I'd desperately hope that the
first two were better. _Worlds Without End_ hurt to read. Spector was
reasonably good at character portrayals -- the only scenes I *enjoyed*
were the flashbacks into what the IE's were doing during the Fifth World.
But the plotline sucked huge perspiring underground mammals. I really was
waiting for the ED novels (which were supposed to be volumes 1 and 2 of
the trilogy, only FASA mucked up its own publication schedule) to come
out, hoping they made more sense and had something resembling a story.

Speaking of tangents... >8-> I'm reading volume one of the Dragon Heart
trilogy now. I'm determined to make it through, since these are supposed
to be the Books That Explain Everything, but someone tell me -- does the
writing style get any better? I keep getting the feeling Koke submitted a
barely-revised draft to make a deadline.. I'm finding so many grammatical
errors, point-of-view and tense shifts, and authorial voice weirdnesses
that I'm tempted to go through it with a highlighter and mail it back to
him.

Anyone else feel this way, or am I just too picky?


Have Fun, (Boy, do I miss Nigel Findley!)
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 2
From: 00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 16:08:35 -0400
At 03:56 PM 9/16/98 -0400, Steve Eley wrote:
>Speaking of tangents... >8-> I'm reading volume one of the Dragon Heart
>trilogy now. I'm determined to make it through, since these are supposed
>to be the Books That Explain Everything, but someone tell me -- does the
>writing style get any better? I keep getting the feeling Koke submitted a
>barely-revised draft to make a deadline.. I'm finding so many grammatical
>errors, point-of-view and tense shifts, and authorial voice weirdnesses
>that I'm tempted to go through it with a highlighter and mail it back to
>him.
>
>Anyone else feel this way, or am I just too picky?

I feel that way...who ever is editing these books..well...needs to edit
this books!
It all started with Burning Bright...that was the worse edit job I've ever
read and it just seem to get worse from there. I wonder if FASA is really
pushing some of their authors a bit too far...quantity over quality. I've
noticed a lot of "point-of-view and tense shifts" lately. One thing I
notice that Odom does from time to time is call someone a Troll and later
refer to them as Ork...hey, Mel, they're not the same thing!


--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>
Message no. 3
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 18:05:19 -0400
At 03:56 PM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote:

>Speaking of tangents... >8-> I'm reading volume one of the Dragon Heart
>trilogy now. I'm determined to make it through, since these are supposed
>to be the Books That Explain Everything, but someone tell me -- does the
>writing style get any better? I keep getting the feeling Koke submitted a
>barely-revised draft to make a deadline.. I'm finding so many grammatical
>errors, point-of-view and tense shifts, and authorial voice weirdnesses
>that I'm tempted to go through it with a highlighter and mail it back to
>him.

You know, I really have to wonder what Jak, who is a RN member, thinks
about this sort of thing.

No, no, this isn't an indictment of you or anyone else specifically. And
I'm not saying you are right or wrong in your opinion of the book.

But we've got Jak Koke, Jon Setzo and Steve Kenson all subscribed to this
list. I know *I* would have a problem with people being so hateful
sometimes about something I had put a lot of hard work and effort into.

Now Steve and Jon, most of their criticism seems to fall in the arena of
rules, and that's much easier to defend or take criticism from. It's easy
to argue why a particular rule is one way or shouldn't be another.

And I'll be the first to admit that FASA's editing process is a bit shoddy;
nearly everything they do should have been put through the editing process
at least once more to catch all sorts of niggling little errors and typos
that pop up.

But I just can't imagine being a member of a list or club, only to have
people slamming my work. I don't know, I don't think I could handle it. I
mean, I flat out said on my web page I'm not going to discuss my poetry or
fiction to avoid any criticism. And I've written scads more than I've
posted. Writing to me is intensely personal (well, aside from the news
releases and stuff I do at work, that's not personal at all) and I would be
deeply wounded by some of the comments from some of the people on this list.

I don't know, it's something that's been bothering me since the recent
"What books are good, which one's suck" thread we had here...last week I
think.

I dunno. I don't know how Jak, Jon and Steve take it sometimes. We can be
so petty and pedantic (as a group) sometimes, it's ridiculous.

Sorry, thought that has been weighing heavily upon me for at least a few
days now.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 4
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 17:08:45 -0500
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Date: Wednesday, September 16, 1998 5:04 PM

<snip>

>You know, I really have to wonder what Jak, who is a RN member, thinks
>about this sort of thing.
>
>No, no, this isn't an indictment of you or anyone else specifically. And
>I'm not saying you are right or wrong in your opinion of the book.

<snip some more>

Hear hear!! <stands and applauds>

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 5
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:51:58 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> You know, I really have to wonder what Jak, who is a RN member, thinks
> about this sort of thing.

If he reads it and wishes to refute me, he's welcome to do so. He may even say
"That's not my fault, that's the editors!" and I'd believe him. (Though for
all we know the editors are on this list, too, and *their* feelings might be
hurt.)

I don't think it's a major risk, though. Koke *is* a published writer (which
is where I plan to be in 3-4 years), and that probably means he's used to
criticism. It almost definitely means he accepts that he can't please
everybody all the time.

I happen to be one of those people he doesn't please. If we're to restrict the
free expression of our opinions only to those authors who are known *not* to be
on the ShadowRN list, I think we'd be doing a greater disservice.


> But I just can't imagine being a member of a list or club, only to have
> people slamming my work. I don't know, I don't think I could handle it. I
> mean, I flat out said on my web page I'm not going to discuss my poetry or
> fiction to avoid any criticism. And I've written scads more than I've
> posted. Writing to me is intensely personal (well, aside from the news
> releases and stuff I do at work, that's not personal at all) and I would be
> deeply wounded by some of the comments from some of the people on this list.

Err.. Don't take this the wrong way, but... That's probably just you. >8->
You strike me as a sensitive individual, and that can be a Very Good Thing as
long as it helps you experience life more vividly and you use it for positive
ends. But when you're a published writer, you're *going* to run into
headstrong readers. Some of these readers are going to tell you how they feel,
and it's not all going to be positive.

I didn't go out of my way to bash Jak Koke's work to his face; I made a comment
on a high-volume mailing list, having no idea whether or not he'd read it. (It
takes a rather strong effort to read every post on this list every day.) If he
posted back and said he was truly offended, I'd be sympathetic to his hurt
feelings, but I wouldn't apologize for having and expressing a viewpoint. He
should know it's the *writing* I'm criticizing, not the *writer.* I'm a writer
too, and sometimes knowing the difference is crucial to going on.


(BTW, if you want to see the other extreme, try subscribing to the Earthdawn
list and hanging around there for a while. Lou Prosperi, the former ED line
developer, is still a regular on the list, and almost everyone tiptoes around
him because he tends to explode when you criticize something he designed. I
gave my honest opinions there too, and got flamed by about twenty people for it
once. If that happens here, this place is going to be seriously unfun.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 6
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 01:36:26 EDT
In a message dated 9/16/1998 5:07:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

<snipped Erik's "rant" about people who are published writers on the list
being ridiculed by people that are just making comments>

> I dunno. I don't know how Jak, Jon and Steve take it sometimes. We can be
> so petty and pedantic (as a group) sometimes, it's ridiculous.

They do it with grace, determination, and sheer adoration on the part of the
rest of us fan types :)

> Sorry, thought that has been weighing heavily upon me for at least a few
> days now.
> Erik J.

By any force with or without a name Erik, I must say. *THAT* was possibly the
best piece of editorial-like writing I've personally seen from you. But
seriously, there are published people from FASA-related materials on this
list. They do their damndest to make us happy. But there is always the
exception, always will be (sadly).

I for one am just happy to know they are out there and putting in their ".02
Nuyen's worth" to the game universe I enjoy the most.

-K (who wonder's if Erik is ready for a Silly String fight yet??? ;)
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:20:04 +0200
According to Erik Jameson, at 18:05 on 16 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> But we've got Jak Koke, Jon Setzo and Steve Kenson all subscribed to this
> list. I know *I* would have a problem with people being so hateful
> sometimes about something I had put a lot of hard work and effort into.

This reminds me of the time Steve Eley was expressing his feelings about
Peter Bergting's art a few years ago, and Bergting sends _me_ a semi-angry
email about the way he felt about that -- while all I'd said was that I
didn't really like his style of drawing/painting. Steve had used slightly
stronger words...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 07:46:22 -0400
Erik Jameson wrote:
: But we've got Jak Koke, Jon Setzo and Steve Kenson all subscribed to this
: list. I know *I* would have a problem with people being so hateful
: sometimes about something I had put a lot of hard work and effort into.

Okay, I was going to stay out of this one, but I think a point
needs to be reiterated here. There's a difference between disliking a
person's work, and disliking the person. Criticism is /essential/ to
success at a creative endeavor like writing. The absolute kiss of death
is a patronizing pat-on-the-head 'why, how interesting!' - it does nothing
to help you advance your art. When you get down to it, if there's a
problem with something you made, it's better to HEAR about it then to
have everyone save your feelings and not mention it.
On the other hand, criticism should be offered in a constructive
fashion. That's both courteous and practical - if you phrase your comments
in a way that's going to piss the creator off, they're not going to listen
to you, and you're wasting your time. The only time negative comments
about someone else's work are 'hateful', to use your word, are when they're
made, not to make the creator aware of a weakness, but to hurt them or
drag them down. Of course, comments intended to be helpful but thoughtlessly
phrased can hurt as badly as intentional barbs....


Gurth wrote:
> This reminds me of the time Steve Eley was expressing his feelings about
> Peter Bergting's art a few years ago, and Bergting sends _me_ a semi-angry
> email about the way he felt about that -- while all I'd said was that I
> didn't really like his style of drawing/painting. Steve had used slightly
> stronger words...

*grin* Steve's usually fairly mild-mannered, but on topics he
feels strongly about (writing being one) he knows how to express himself.
In his defense, I'll mention that he /does/ offer up his own writing for
critique by others, and while he's just as defensive of his creations as
any other artist, he does know how to listen to other peoples' commentary.
He doesn't just dish it out - he takes it himself, too.

--Sean
Message no. 9
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:28:56 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> This reminds me of the time Steve Eley was expressing his feelings about
> Peter Bergting's art a few years ago, and Bergting sends _me_ a semi-angry
> email about the way he felt about that -- while all I'd said was that I
> didn't really like his style of drawing/painting. Steve had used slightly
> stronger words...


He *did*? WHOA! I never knew that... >8->
Any chance you still have that e-mail? I know that's unlikely, but I'd
love to see it.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley (Harbinger of Chaos and Artistic Criticism)
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 10
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:33:27 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> *grin* Steve's usually fairly mild-mannered, but on topics he
> feels strongly about (writing being one) he knows how to express himself.
> In his defense, I'll mention that he /does/ offer up his own writing for
> critique by others, and while he's just as defensive of his creations as
> any other artist, he does know how to listen to other peoples' commentary.
> He doesn't just dish it out - he takes it himself, too.


Awww... Thanks! But you forgot to mention that my leaping of tall
buildings in a single bound, my decades building children's shelters in
Africa, and most of all, my godlike and sensuous trombone playing...

>8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 11
From: Jak Koke <jak@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 09:49:42 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
> You know, I really have to wonder what Jak, who is a RN member, thinks
> about this sort of thing.

Well, I'll tell you what I think...

While I don't particularly enjoy negative criticism of my books and my
writing, it's all part of the job of being an author. Frankly, I hear far
more positive comments than negative ones, but I know that not everyone
likes my style or even my stories. So there it is; a thick skin is
certainly an asset for a writer. I just deal with the criticism and move
on. If something in anyones commentary (positive or negative) rings true to
me, I take particular note and it may affect future work.

Steve Eley wrote:
>If he reads it and wishes to refute me, he's welcome to do so. He may even say
>"That's not my fault, that's the editors!" and I'd believe him. (Though for
>all we know the editors are on this list, too, and *their* feelings might be
>hurt.)

I'm not interested in placing blame. Editors have a tough job, ranging from
the correction of spelling and typos to making sure that elements such as
verb tense and point-of-view are consistent without interfering with the
author's stylistic intent. During the writing process, I have read through
various versions of Stranger Souls more times than I care to remember, and
in the final version, I don't see many huge editorial mistakes. Most
likely, Steve just doesn't like the writing style in these books. And that
is his opinion, and of course he's free to express it, either here or elsewhere.

BTW, this is not an invitation to send me a marked up copy of any of my
books highlighting where the writing doesn't work for you. I'd just prefer
not to get that, and frankly it would do no good. These books have been
published for over a year and even if I could make changes to future
editions, which I can't, I don't think I would. Many people (including me
<laugh>) like these books in their current incarnation. The three novels in
the Dragon Heart Saga have been the most popular SR novels since the first
"Secrets of Power" trilogy, and Stranger Souls (#1), the one Steve is
reading, has sold the most copies and garnered the highest praise from readers.

Here's a weird little factlet: Both Stranger Souls (#1) and Beyond the Pale
(#3) have sold approximately equal numbers as far as I can tell, with
Stranger Souls slightly ahead. But Clockwork Asylum (#2) is selling about
1/5 fewer copies. How can that be? Are some people are buying the first and
the third book, but not reading the middle? Or are they borrowing a copy of
the second book, then buying the third?

I do appreciate Erik's remarks about being concerned about insulting another
list member. I have been insulted on this list in the past, and I
absolutely abhor flame wars. However, Steve's comments about my work did not
offend me. And even if they did, I couldn't expect the list (as seems to be
the case with Lou in the ED mailing list) to treat me with kid gloves. How
would I ever know what people really believed?

BTW, part of the reason I rarely comment when people talk about my books is
because I like to see the discussion evolve without my imput. Usually when
someone says something negative or critical, someone else jumps in with a
different opinion.

This just happened a few days ago when someone posted that while my trilogy
was good, he couldn't stand Ryan Mercury because he seemed indestructible.
Someone else pointed out that he felt differently, that Ryan was supposed to
be powerful, chosen and trained by Dunkelzahn and all that, but that he had
"sweated for" Ryan many times. My intent was to create a very powerful
character, but even more powerful bad guys so that the reader would feel
that Ryan had a very real chance of being defeated. Ryan becomes overly
cocky, however, in Clockwork Asylum, and that has made readers dislike him
some. But this trait is meant to be a character flaw which stays with him
until the final confrontation with Burnout.

Anyhow, my point was... Often, I prefer just letting the discussion go.
Because if I step in and comment, I have no way of knowing how my comment
will affect what other people post.

Just a few thoughts,

--Jak

Jak Koke La Jolla, CA
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.koke.org/jak/
Message no. 12
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:29:23 -0400
At 11:51 PM 9/16/98 -0400, you wrote:

>If he reads it and wishes to refute me, he's welcome to do so. He may
even say
>"That's not my fault, that's the editors!" and I'd believe him. (Though for
>all we know the editors are on this list, too, and *their* feelings might be
>hurt.)

Steve, it really wasn't a slam or anything at you. It was more like me
wondering aloud how the targets of our sometimes vicious reviews take our
criticism. I mean, I really am curious as to how Jak, Jon and Steve react
to some of our more negative postings.

As a list, we are often guilty of simply saying "It sucked!" and nothing
more; the recent book thread is testament to that. Not only is that not
helpful, it can be hurtful. But if *we* are going to be critical, I really
think we ought to make a concerted effort to say *why* it sucked.

>I happen to be one of those people he doesn't please. If we're to
restrict the
>free expression of our opinions only to those authors who are known *not*
to be
>on the ShadowRN list, I think we'd be doing a greater disservice.

I'm not asking anyone to restrict their opinions. I guess I'm asking that
we simply be aware that the targets of our nastiness may very well be
paying attention. You don't have to be rude to let people know you didn't
like a book or a picture.

>Err.. Don't take this the wrong way, but... That's probably just you. >8->
>You strike me as a sensitive individual, and that can be a Very Good Thing as
>long as it helps you experience life more vividly and you use it for positive

Well, only really when it comes to certain things (and that's honestly a
bit hightened right now, due to personal life). I could give a rat's ass
what you thought of a press release I wrote. But if you were to hammer "A
Ritual for the Summoning of Spirits," a poem of mine, then I would become
extremely defensive, since that product of my heart, not my mind, as a
press release is.

On the other hand, if you were to tell me I didn't have a shooting touch to
save my life (in basketball) I'd probably laugh and agree, then say it's
all in fun and challenge you to a friendly game of one-on-one.

>ends. But when you're a published writer, you're *going* to run into
>headstrong readers. Some of these readers are going to tell you how they
feel,
>and it's not all going to be positive.

Oh, I've written before and I've been published in a few different forums;
poetry compilations, Shadowlands magazine, and of course now in the
ultimate in self-publishing, my own web page. And I'm certain that some
people hate my name and anything I've ever written. And much of that I can
ignore, since they aren't the people or the audience I care about.

The worst review of a poem I ever had was from the person I had written it
for. She just didn't get it. I was crushed. Jak, Jon and Steve, in a
certain way, they write for us too. If I were to publish an SR novel, I
would dearly hope that the majority of this list would like it. It would,
in all honesty, hurt to see the people I was writing for, be so nasty about
what I had done, at least in part, for them.

>(BTW, if you want to see the other extreme, try subscribing to the Earthdawn
>list and hanging around there for a while. Lou Prosperi, the former ED line
>developer, is still a regular on the list, and almost everyone tiptoes around
>him because he tends to explode when you criticize something he designed. I
>gave my honest opinions there too, and got flamed by about twenty people
for it
>once. If that happens here, this place is going to be seriously unfun.)

No, no, I don't want that to happen.

*sigh*

I guess I'm just saying that perhaps we simply oughta be aware that the
targets of our criticism are on the list and may well be paying attention,
so instead of saying something sucked, be specific on why it didn't please
you. Don't just criticise, be constructive.

I can be guilty of it too. It takes a bit more effort. But it's something
I would like to see.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 13
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:30:19 -0400
At 01:36 AM 9/17/98 EDT, you wrote:

><snipped Erik's "rant" about people who are published writers on the list
>being ridiculed by people that are just making comments>

Wasn't really meant as a rant...

>> I dunno. I don't know how Jak, Jon and Steve take it sometimes. We
can be
>> so petty and pedantic (as a group) sometimes, it's ridiculous.
>
>They do it with grace, determination, and sheer adoration on the part of the
>rest of us fan types :)

Yeah, maybe. Being here in LA, we're so oversaturated with "stars" and all
the talks shows and radio shows always have someone vaguely famous on them.
I have heard from some of them that the only way they can manage is to
either ignore the whole thing, or that the good reviews make the bad ones
manageable.

>By any force with or without a name Erik, I must say. *THAT* was possibly
the
>best piece of editorial-like writing I've personally seen from you. But

Hey, if you editorial, I can rant, rave and wax poetic on politics. But I
try to avoid editorial, though it probably doesn't seem so to the list.

>seriously, there are published people from FASA-related materials on this
>list. They do their damndest to make us happy. But there is always the
>exception, always will be (sadly).

Agreed.

>I for one am just happy to know they are out there and putting in their ".02
>Nuyen's worth" to the game universe I enjoy the most.

Agreed. For all the errors and mistakes and whatnot that they've not,
folks like Steve, Jon, Jak, Mike M., Lisa Smedman, Mel Odom, Tom Baxa,
Bergting, etc. have worked, either for love or money, to expand the
universe of Shadowrun that we all know and love. So we've gotta give them
credit for at least that much. Perhaps the end result isn't always
pleasing, but they are trying.

>-K (who wonder's if Erik is ready for a Silly String fight yet??? ;)

Always gotta throw something in there to confuse me... ;-)

Erik J.
Message no. 14
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:32:50 -0400
At 12:20 PM 9/17/98 +0200, you wrote:

>This reminds me of the time Steve Eley was expressing his feelings about
>Peter Bergting's art a few years ago, and Bergting sends _me_ a semi-angry
>email about the way he felt about that -- while all I'd said was that I
>didn't really like his style of drawing/painting. Steve had used slightly
>stronger words...

Heh. We all have our own likes and dislikes and opinions...I actually like
Bergting's stuff. I hope to see more of his art and if he ever puts out
his own art book and shows up at the Comicon to hawk it, like Bradstreet
did, I'd probably pick up an autographed copy of it.

> Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.

OOOH!! I love that line (and it seems from your wave of mutilation one
that you've been listening to the Pixies recently!), I'm gonna have to
steal it. Where's it from? Gotta know!

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 15
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:44:37 +0200
According to Steve Eley, at 10:28 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

> > This reminds me of the time Steve Eley was expressing his feelings about
> > Peter Bergting's art a few years ago, and Bergting sends _me_ a semi-angry
> > email about the way he felt about that -- while all I'd said was that I
> > didn't really like his style of drawing/painting. Steve had used slightly
> > stronger words...
>
> He *did*? WHOA! I never knew that... >8->
> Any chance you still have that e-mail? I know that's unlikely, but I'd
> love to see it.

I suppose you mean Bergting's message, not yours that sparked him off?
Yeah, I still have it (Sun, 21 Jul 1996 20:38:29 +0100 it's dated; I keep
copies of nearly all personal mail I get). I'll forward it to you.

(For the record, Bergting appeared to be a nice enough guy after we'd
straightened out the fact that he was apparently confusing Steve and me :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 16
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:15:36 -0400
At 09:49 AM 9/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Erik Jameson wrote:
>> You know, I really have to wonder what Jak, who is a RN member, thinks
>> about this sort of thing.
>
>Well, I'll tell you what I think...

Thanks for the reply Jak.

I've been way to mellow and concious of other people's feelings
recently...I think I'd better see a doctor, something's wrong...

>Here's a weird little factlet: Both Stranger Souls (#1) and Beyond the Pale
>(#3) have sold approximately equal numbers as far as I can tell, with
>Stranger Souls slightly ahead. But Clockwork Asylum (#2) is selling about
>1/5 fewer copies. How can that be? Are some people are buying the first and
>the third book, but not reading the middle? Or are they borrowing a copy of
>the second book, then buying the third?

Can't tell you. I own all three myself. And despite the criticism about
Lisa Smedman's writing (which, at least with the recent Aztlan book who's
name escapes me, seems to ring true to me), I'll be picking up
"Psychotrope" perhaps as soon as tonight. And of course, when your new
book comes out (sorry, blanking on the name) in I think November, I'll buy
that too.

>BTW, part of the reason I rarely comment when people talk about my books is
>because I like to see the discussion evolve without my imput. Usually when
>someone says something negative or critical, someone else jumps in with a
>different opinion.

Ah, a natural, organic sort of discussion. Gotcha.

>This just happened a few days ago when someone posted that while my trilogy
>was good, he couldn't stand Ryan Mercury because he seemed indestructible.

Well, I understood the point that he was meant to be powerful, as were all
the players involved. I think you'll find that many of the folks that like
gritty books about small time players *play* their SR game similarly, and
many of those that play epic games like epic books. Not a hard and fast
rule by any means though.

Anyway, thanks for the reply Jak.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 17
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:50:34 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/1998 9:29:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfeley@***.NET writes:

> Awww... Thanks! But you forgot to mention that my leaping of tall
> buildings in a single bound, my decades building children's shelters in
> Africa, and most of all, my godlike and sensuous trombone playing...
>
> >8->

You're still trying these things? Damn, after that last jump off of your own
ego, I would have thought you would spraned (sp?) your face or something???
(j/k) Though I still think you left a bigger mess than you said you did when
you jumped off the bulding and landing on the roof of one those children's
shelters, went clean through the roof and landed -IN- your sensuous
trombone...

-K (who just could -NOT- miss this chance.... ;)
Message no. 18
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:09:30 -0400
K in the Shadows wrote:
>
> You're still trying these things? Damn, after that last jump off of your own
> ego, I would have thought you would spraned (sp?) your face or something???
> (j/k) Though I still think you left a bigger mess than you said you did when
> you jumped off the bulding and landing on the roof of one those children's
> shelters, went clean through the roof and landed -IN- your sensuous
> trombone...

Yep. Definitely a mistake -- I was still playing under White Wolf's
fumble rules back then. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 19
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:11:05 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/1998 12:36:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> >-K (who wonder's if Erik is ready for a Silly String fight yet??? ;)
>
> Always gotta throw something in there to confuse me... ;-)
>
Here's a hint, and maybe it'll help all those people on IRC when I pull that
statement on them as well.

What's another word for "String"....."THREAD?!?!"

come on, I'm surprised Spike didn't figure that one out even...

-K :)
Message no. 20
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:30:11 +0100
And verily, did K in the Shadows hastily scribble thusly...
|Here's a hint, and maybe it'll help all those people on IRC when I pull that
|statement on them as well.
|
|What's another word for "String"....."THREAD?!?!"
|
|come on, I'm surprised Spike didn't figure that one out even...

Figure what one out? I've been skipping this thread....
Did I miss something witty?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 21
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:05:16 -0400
At 05:11 PM 9/17/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> >-K (who wonder's if Erik is ready for a Silly String fight yet??? ;)

>What's another word for "String"....."THREAD?!?!"
>
>come on, I'm surprised Spike didn't figure that one out even...

Well, I hear "Silly String fight" and I instantly think of two or more
people with cans of Silly String spraying multicolored string at each
other. I suspect that's most people's initial reaction. Hard to go from
that mental image to usenet/mail list threads...

Anyway, this is now badly OT, so we probably oughta cease and desist. No
point in baiting the tigers as it were.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 22
From: Machine-gun Kelly <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 19:25:27 EDT
<SNIP Jak's Oration>

Speaking of novels (Jak's in particular) does anyone know the release for "The
Terminus Effect"? I've been drooling in anticipation since I heard Jak was
writing it.

Mgkelly
Message no. 23
From: Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:24:27 -0500
At 09:49 AM 9/17/98 -0700, Jak Koke wrote:
>This just happened a few days ago when someone posted that while my trilogy
>was good, he couldn't stand Ryan Mercury because he seemed indestructible.
>Someone else pointed out that he felt differently, that Ryan was supposed to
>be powerful, chosen and trained by Dunkelzahn and all that, but that he had

Ahh Jak, now you went and told them who trained Ryan! A little tidbit that
several of us that posted to the thread on this subject pointedly left out :).

>"sweated for" Ryan many times. My intent was to create a very powerful
>character, but even more powerful bad guys so that the reader would feel
>that Ryan had a very real chance of being defeated. Ryan becomes overly
>cocky, however, in Clockwork Asylum, and that has made readers dislike him

THAT'S IT! I knew there was something that kept nagging at me about an
overall excellent story. I guess I just like my fictional heros to be
bigger and better than life (terribly shallow I'll admit :)).

>some. But this trait is meant to be a character flaw which stays with him
>until the final confrontation with Burnout.
>

There were a couple of major points that I had figured out (who Lethe was,
who killed Dunky) before the answers were actually told, but for me, the
presentation of the last three lines of the story raised my impression of
the saga from good to excellent.
Also, there is a paragraph in the epilogue that says "...And on until every
point of abnormally high mana had been leveled flat, it's energy dispersed
throughout the world."(^1). IMO this is a nice little explanation for why
the mana levels have suddenly increased in 2060 upon the release of SR3.

^1- excerpt from Beyond the Pale, by Jak Koke, pg.160

BlueMule
Message no. 24
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:33:06 +1000
> BTW, this is not an invitation to send me a marked up copy of any of
> my
> books highlighting where the writing doesn't work for you. I'd just
> prefer
> not to get that, and frankly it would do no good. These books have
> been
> published for over a year and even if I could make changes to future
> editions, which I can't, I don't think I would. Many people
> (including me
> <laugh>) like these books in their current incarnation. The three
> novels in
> the Dragon Heart Saga have been the most popular SR novels since the
> first
> "Secrets of Power" trilogy, and Stranger Souls (#1), the one Steve is
> reading, has sold the most copies and garnered the highest praise from
> readers.
>
Jak,

No offense intended, but I think a couple of the reasons that the Dragon
Heart Saga was so popular is that, a) It's only the second ever
Shadowrun trilogy (although certain characters make repeat appearances
in different novels - I especially liked how Nigel Findley kept up a web
of interconnecting characters in all his different novels - only Secrets
of Power has had such a long, detailed SINGLE MAIN plotline), and b)
Well, you're dealing with 'the big guys' - Dunkelzahn (am I spelling
that right? I can never remember where the l goes) and his death
especially. I mean, who's not going to want to know WHY Dunkelzahn died,
even if you DID hate his character? The trilogy gives inside information
on the biggest events of the decade, if not the century. That's probably
the main reason I bought them.

However, that's not to say they're not good books - even if I don't
especially like your style. :) That's my own problem and doesn't reflect
on your abilities as an author.

I'd be more inclined to see how 'Dead Air' stacked up in popularity
against the other books to see how people rate you...

Doc'
Pedantic and Pedanticer...
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:38:19 -0500
>Well, you're dealing with 'the big guys' - Dunkelzahn (am I spelling
>that right? I can never remember where the l goes) and his death
>especially. I mean, who's not going to want to know WHY Dunkelzahn died,
>even if you DID hate his character?

You didn't like Dunkelzahn? Why? Of all the various characters to appear
in this game, he was my favorite (I liked his sense of humor). It broke my
heart when he died, no matter what the reason was (and while I haven't read
the whole trilogy yet because of a hideous lack of time, I have learned why
he died).

If someone had told me that I'd get attached to a recurring character in a
role-playing game sometime back in 1989, I'd've laughed in their face and
told them what good drugs they were on.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 26
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:23:48 +1000
> >Well, you're dealing with 'the big guys' - Dunkelzahn (am I spelling
> >that right? I can never remember where the l goes) and his death
> >especially. I mean, who's not going to want to know WHY Dunkelzahn
> died,
> >even if you DID hate his character?
>
> You didn't like Dunkelzahn? Why? Of all the various characters to
> appear
> in this game, he was my favorite (I liked his sense of humor). It
> broke my
> heart when he died, no matter what the reason was (and while I haven't
> read
> the whole trilogy yet because of a hideous lack of time, I have
> learned why
> he died).
>
> If someone had told me that I'd get attached to a recurring character
> in a
> role-playing game sometime back in 1989, I'd've laughed in their face
> and
> told them what good drugs they were on.
>
> --
> (>) Texas 2-Step
>
Ooo, no no no no...that was as an example because I KNEW of people who
didn't like Dunkelzahn. When I came in that day and saw the book in the
store I thought, "Wow, Portfolio of a Dragon - wonder what's in there?"
Then I turned the book over, saw, 'Dunkelzahn dead!' and I was, quite
honestly, stunned. I couldn't believe that they'd actually killed off
the Big D. Yes, I was a fan. I just know of some people who weren't.

Doc'
Message no. 27
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:39:11 +0200
According to Erik Jameson, at 13:32 on 17 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

> Heh. We all have our own likes and dislikes and opinions...I actually like
> Bergting's stuff.

I didn't like his earlier work, though it got better in later SR books.
Still not my favorite artist, but he definitely improved, and at any rate
better than Geiger ever was. All IMHO, of course :)

> > Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
>
> OOOH!! I love that line (and it seems from your wave of mutilation one
> that you've been listening to the Pixies recently!)

Death to the Pixies.

> I'm gonna have to steal it. Where's it from? Gotta know!

"The Wanderer" by U2 and Johnny Cash, track #10 on "Zooropa".

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:49:46 -0400
At 11:39 AM 9/18/98 +0200, you wrote:

>I didn't like his earlier work, though it got better in later SR books.
>Still not my favorite artist, but he definitely improved, and at any rate
>better than Geiger ever was. All IMHO, of course :)

Heh. Reminds me of well over a year ago I think a near-flame war broke out
on the FASA company board on AOL regarding their artists. I don't recall
many specifics of it all, except that some people got stupid, some people
didn't do much other than say "Baxa Sucks!", some people got extremely
defensive, some folks got vicious, and FASA did a fairly good job turning
it around and managing the situation.

>> OOOH!! I love that line (and it seems from your wave of mutilation one
>> that you've been listening to the Pixies recently!)
>
>Death to the Pixies.

Yes. Death to them.

>> > Yeah, I left with nothing but the thought you'd be there too.
>>
>> I'm gonna have to steal it. Where's it from? Gotta know!
>
>"The Wanderer" by U2 and Johnny Cash, track #10 on "Zooropa".

Not my favorite track on the record and not my favorite U2 record, but I'll
have to go back and listen to it again this weekend...

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 29
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 20:39:38 EDT
In a message dated 9/17/98 9:40:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> You didn't like Dunkelzahn? Why? Of all the various characters to appear
> in this game, he was my favorite (I liked his sense of humor). It broke my
> heart when he died, no matter what the reason was (and while I haven't read
> the whole trilogy yet because of a hideous lack of time, I have learned why
> he died).
>
> If someone had told me that I'd get attached to a recurring character in a
> role-playing game sometime back in 1989, I'd've laughed in their face and
> told them what good drugs they were on.
Dunk took an early lead with the "how do I know why things happen?" qoute, but
I sooin took a liking to Lofwyr, he just fits in better with what I like a
dragon to be.
Message no. 30
From: Rat <shadorat@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:06:45 -0700
>
> Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
>
>
>
> You didn't like Dunkelzahn? Why? Of all the various characters to appear
> in this game, he was my favorite (I liked his sense of humor). It broke my
> heart when he died, no matter what the reason was (and while I haven't read
> the whole trilogy yet because of a hideous lack of time, I have learned why
> he died).
>
> If someone had told me that I'd get attached to a recurring character in a
> role-playing game sometime back in 1989, I'd've laughed in their face and
> told them what good drugs they were on.
>

It's nice to hear somebody else say this...I thought I
might be the only one. Dunk was my favorite of all the
recurring characters as well (Lofwyr is second) and I
actually felt something like grief when they killed him off.
Not the same kind as I'd feel for a real person, of course,
but I'd come to look forward to his comments in the various
sourcebooks, and his infrequent appearances in stories and
novels. I still remember the shock I felt when I looked at
FASA's website that day and saw "DUNKELZAHN ASSASSINATED!"
I've missed him since he's been gone.

Yeah, I get it.

--Rat (who needs a life)
------------------------------------------------
shadorat@****.com
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace
http://www.best.com/~shadorat/shadowrun/wvm.html
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:36:41 +0200
According to Erik Jameson, at 12:49 on 18 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Heh. Reminds me of well over a year ago I think a near-flame war broke out
> on the FASA company board on AOL regarding their artists. I don't recall
> many specifics of it all, except that some people got stupid, some people
> didn't do much other than say "Baxa Sucks!"

Sounds familiar... No matter who gets hired to do the art, there will
always be people complaining about it, I think.

> some people got extremely
> defensive, some folks got vicious, and FASA did a fairly good job turning
> it around and managing the situation.

Couldn't we borrow them for the list, too? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:36:40 +0200
According to me, at 11:39 on 18 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> I didn't like his earlier work, though it got better in later SR books.
> Still not my favorite artist, but he definitely improved, and at any rate
> better than Geiger ever was. All IMHO, of course :)
^^^^^^
That should be Geier, not Geiger-the-guy-who-designed-Alien...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 33
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Novels Again (was Re: Translation & Edition Oddities)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:40:01 -0500
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Date: Saturday, September 19, 1998 6:40 AM

>> I didn't like his earlier work, though it got better in later SR books.
>> Still not my favorite artist, but he definitely improved, and at any rate
>> better than Geiger ever was. All IMHO, of course :)
> ^^^^^^
>That should be Geier, not Geiger-the-guy-who-designed-Alien...

The guy who designed Alien spells it Giger, for what it's worth. And
pronounces it with a long E and not a long I.

Don't feel bad, I mangled it for years before someone set me straight.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

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