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Message no. 1
From: Debbie Giesbrecht <Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.CHIRON.COM>
Subject: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 17:08:37 PST
Hello all,

Another mech question for you from one who is just starting
to play.

When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious,
or is 1 deadly the maximum damage?

Dead is dead.

My other question is how to you all handle deckers in your game.
It would seem to me that you could spend a lot of time catering
to the deck jockey while ignoring everyone else. Maybe its
not a problem. I don't know.

I asked Tom Dowd this question at Origins and he basicly said
"Fake it. More rules are coming out next year." I'd like
to hear from the experienced how you all "Fake it."

One last question for the patient who read this far. How much
karma do you usually award per game? What do you base this
on? I read the SRII, but it wasn't all that specific.

Debbie

Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.chiron.com
Message no. 2
From: Mercenary X <kdye@*****.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 18:15:01 -0700
I was at that talk Tom gave too. As for karma, you see just how much
sweating they did during the game and award it from there.....
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 21:18:16 -0400
>>>>> "Debbie" == Debbie Giesbrecht
<Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.CHIRON.COM>
>>>>> writes:

Debbie> When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
Debbie> 2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
Debbie> staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious,
Debbie> or is 1 deadly the maximum damage?

Somewhere there's a rule for "overflow" damage, but I think that's first
edition not second. The way that worked was for each level of staging
beyond Deadly you'd mark off an "extra" box, counted as overflow (or
overkill :). When the overflow exceeds your Body stat, that's deathpoint.

This particular rule is missing from the second edition, come to think of
it; a "one shot, one kill" is effectively impossible as the worst injury
you can take in a Deadly wound filling 10 boxes on the physical damage
track.

Something similar was added in the Fields of Fire sourcebook, but I forget
the exact mechanic.

Debbie> Dead is dead.

Debbie> My other question is how to you all handle deckers in your game. It
Debbie> would seem to me that you could spend a lot of time catering to the
Debbie> deck jockey while ignoring everyone else. Maybe its not a problem.
Debbie> I don't know.

I've seen it handled a couple of ways. You can just say no PC deckers in
your game, and make them all NPCs. Or you can arrange time with the player
in question before the gaming session and set up a couple of runs in
advance. Or you can determine the decker's performance against different
systems types and "wing it" (don't bother with dice rolls).

Another solution that works with large groups is to split the PCs up. While
you (the GM) is dealing with one group, have another player play the Matrix
for the decker. Give the assistant some guidelines on how to run things,
and let the assistant know what should cause him to give your sleeve a tug.

Debbie> I asked Tom Dowd this question at Origins and he basicly said "Fake
Debbie> it. More rules are coming out next year." I'd like to hear from
Debbie> the experienced how you all "Fake it."

Tricky. Some GMs can handle it, others can't. If you're the kind of GM who
needs a couple of hours of prep time before a session, you could fall flat
on your face.

Debbie> One last question for the patient who read this far. How much
Debbie> karma do you usually award per game? What do you base this on? I
Debbie> read the SRII, but it wasn't all that specific.

It's not, for a reason. Of all things, giving out XPs can be the most
difficult because you have to be both completely objective and completely
subjective to be completely fair. You just have to find what works for your
group.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "When sub-culture becomes pop-culture,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | it's time to move on to something new."
this space intentionally left blank | --Dana Carvey
Message no. 4
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 20:25:56 +0100
On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> It's not, for a reason. Of all things, giving out XPs can be the most
> difficult because you have to be both completely objective and completely
> subjective to be completely fair. You just have to find what works for your
> group.

XP's?

ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or Blue Earth County
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 5
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 21:31:18 -0400
>>>>> "Robert" == Robert A Hayden
<hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU> writes:

Robert> XP's?
Robert> ARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Come off it; Dee-N-Dee isn't the only game out there to use "experience
points" or whatever, and it's easier to type XP than something longer. It's
also nearly as generic as GM.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | Welcome to the Information Superhighway.
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | AOLers, stay in the righthand lane.
Message no. 6
From: "Robert A. Hayden" <hayden@******.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 20:33:45 +0100
On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Come off it; Dee-N-Dee isn't the only game out there to use "experience
> points" or whatever, and it's easier to type XP than something longer. It's
> also nearly as generic as GM.

*me giggles insanely*

____ Robert A. Hayden <=> hayden@******.mankato.msus.edu
\ /__ -=-=-=-=- <=> -=-=-=-=-
\/ / Finger for Geek Code Info <=> I do not necessarily speak for the
\/ Finger for PGP Public Key <=> City of Mankato or Blue Earth County
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
(GEEK CODE 1.0.1) GAT d- -p+(---) c++(++++) l++ u++ e+/* m++(*)@ s-/++
n-(---) h+(*) f+ g+ w++ t++ r++ y+(*)
Message no. 7
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 08:44:21 METDST
>
> Hello all,
[snip]
>
> When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
> 2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
> staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious,
> or is 1 deadly the maximum damage?
>
> Dead is dead.
[snip]
> Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.chiron.com

Every 2 successes over D go to the Physical Overflow box. When this
number exceeds your Body, you're dead.

I don't remember now how much time to live do you have when over D.
Maybe (Body-Physical Overflow+1) * 10min ?

Bye,Paolo

--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 8
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 16:52:12 +1000
Paolo Marcucci:

> > When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
> > 2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
> > staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious, [...]
> >
> > Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.chiron.com
>

> Every 2 successes over D go to the Physical Overflow box. When this
> number exceeds your Body, you're dead.
>

> I don't remember now how much time to live do you have when over D.
> Maybe (Body-Physical Overflow+1) * 10min ?

Before that last bit, you still get Armour, Body, Dodge (SR 1) or
Combat Pool (? SR 2), etc., to try to reduce it back down.

If you go past D, then you're dying, and will be dead in <some period
which I forget>. In our game, if after resisting it down you've still
overflowed the equivalent of the Physical Overflow box, you'd be dead
right then. It represents so much damage that even instantly applied
super-powerful healing has no chance of saving you.

But then, we play that you can't be Healed if you've had critical body
parts removed (heart, lungs, head, ...), either.

luke
Message no. 9
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:04:21 METDST
> > I don't remember now how much time to live do you have when over D.
> > Maybe (Body-Physical Overflow+1) * 10min ?
>
> Before that last bit, you still get Armour, Body, Dodge (SR 1) or
> Combat Pool (? SR 2), etc., to try to reduce it back down.
[snip]

Of course (BTW: SR2).

Ehm... do any of you have the air conditioning shaft plans for the
Renraku Arcology? My players asked for them sunday....

Bye, Paolo
--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 10
From: Janne Jalkanen <jalkanen@*********.CERN.CH>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:35:37 +0200
On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> Somewhere there's a rule for "overflow" damage, but I think that's first
> edition not second. The way that worked was for each level of staging
> beyond Deadly you'd mark off an "extra" box, counted as overflow (or
> overkill :). When the overflow exceeds your Body stat, that's deathpoint.

That's definately Second Edition SR. BUT if I remember correctly, the
maximum amount of damage one can get in *either* of the games is Deadly.
By the rules, you can't stage it anymore upwards... That's why we adapted
the house rule that every two successes past Deadly increases the damage
by one point of Overkill. When the amount of Overkill exceeds your Body,
then you die, die, die.

> Debbie> My other question is how to you all handle deckers in your game. It
>
> I've seen it handled a couple of ways. You can just say no PC deckers in
> your game, and make them all NPCs. Or you can arrange time with the player
> in question before the gaming session and set up a couple of runs in
> advance. Or you can determine the decker's performance against different
> systems types and "wing it" (don't bother with dice rolls).

Or use the Quick Resolution system from Virtual Realities. (This, however
sucks bigtime. IMHO. I adapted a modified version of it, so that all the
slow ICE-bashing can be reduced to one roll/ICE. That way it is still
moderately fast, but can still be roleplayed.)

Also some kind soul could write a computer program to handle all the
decking. Then you could put your player in front of the computer and make
him play it while you attended to the rest of the group. I actually
started a project like this and got about 100K of code, but I haven't
touched it for a year now...

> Debbie> One last question for the patient who read this far. How much
> Debbie> karma do you usually award per game? What do you base this on? I
> Debbie> read the SRII, but it wasn't all that specific.
>
> It's not, for a reason. Of all things, giving out XPs can be the most
> difficult because you have to be both completely objective and completely
> subjective to be completely fair. You just have to find what works for your
> group.

This is very much true. However, to answer Debbie's question, I usually
give my players 3-8 points of karma/scenario (NOT session). For really
heavy stuff I have given even 12 to 15 points, but they really have to
sweat for it. Then again, we trashed the Team Karma Pool, since it had no
real use and caused nothing but grief in our game, so all of the karma
the players get is for their own use.

I'd suggest however that you start from little Karma awards and work your
way upwards from there if they don't seem to be sufficient. It will cause
less problems than beginning with big Karma awards and then cutting them
down.

<The Evil>

Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it
jalkanen@******.cern.ch /// ! life has a flavor
Janne.Jalkanen@***.fi \\\/// ! the protected will never understand
-'Keep on going...' \XX/ ! (anonymous, Viet Nam, 1968)
Message no. 11
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:44:48 METDST
>
> On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> > Somewhere there's a rule for "overflow" damage, but I think that's
first
> > edition not second. The way that worked was for each level of staging
> > beyond Deadly you'd mark off an "extra" box, counted as overflow (or
> > overkill :). When the overflow exceeds your Body stat, that's deathpoint.
>
> That's definately Second Edition SR. BUT if I remember correctly, the
> maximum amount of damage one can get in *either* of the games is Deadly.
> By the rules, you can't stage it anymore upwards... That's why we adapted
> the house rule that every two successes past Deadly increases the damage
> by one point of Overkill. When the amount of Overkill exceeds your Body,
> then you die, die, die.
[snip]

It's a house rule? Mah... we use one success->one point of overkill
(much deadly *grin*) but i've always tought it was written somewhere.
iI think it's time for a complete re-reading of the rules :)

> Janne Jalkanen ///! For those who have to fight for it

Bye, Paolo
--
______________________________________________________________________
Paolo Marcucci Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste - Italy
marcucci@***.ts.astro.it http://www.oat.ts.astro.it/marcucci.html
Message no. 12
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: novice question
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 15:06:55 -0700
Hi Debbie,

On Wed, 13 Jul 1994, Debbie Giesbrecht wrote:

> Hello all,
> When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
> 2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
> staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious,
> or is 1 deadly the maximum damage?

The Maximum damage is Deadly plus whatever the wound was staged up to.
If the wound was staged up past the victim's Body, they die instantly.
If not, they can be saved. SRII, pg. 111

> My other question is how to you all handle deckers in your game.
> It would seem to me that you could spend a lot of time catering
> to the deck jockey while ignoring everyone else. Maybe its
> not a problem. I don't know.

There is a "Fast-Run" system in the Virtual Realities, pg. 49. It works
pretty well. Usually I run the decker so when I'm GMing I simply let
'Rocks find out what I think they should, or need, to know.

> I asked Tom Dowd this question at Origins and he basicly said
> "Fake it. More rules are coming out next year." I'd like
> to hear from the experienced how you all "Fake it."

I'd love to see some more rules on the subject.

> One last question for the patient who read this far. How much
> karma do you usually award per game? What do you base this
> on? I read the SRII, but it wasn't all that specific.

5 to 6 points. Sometimes as much as 8 if it was a real cruncher. And I
only award Karma at the end of the complete adventure. The least I have
ever given out was 2 and the most (to the only walking survivor, and she
had rescued all of the team's bodies) was 13)

Hope this helps,

Ivy
Message no. 13
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 15:36:07 -0700
Yes, luke, but...

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Paolo Marcucci:
>
> > > When staging damage, do you stop at Deadly or keep going to
> > > 2 past deadly, 3 past deadly, etc. Do you need to reduce the
> > > staging past however many deadlies to get back to serious, [...]
> > >
> > > Debbie_Giesbrecht@**.chiron.com
> >
>
> > Every 2 successes over D go to the Physical Overflow box. When this
> > number exceeds your Body, you're dead.
> >
>
> > I don't remember now how much time to live do you have when over D.
> > Maybe (Body-Physical Overflow+1) * 10min ?

You have (Body - Overflow) x 10 minutes to live without treatment.


> Before that last bit, you still get Armour, Body, Dodge (SR 1) or
> Combat Pool (? SR 2), etc., to try to reduce it back down.

When you take the wound you got to use your Body and any Combat Pool dice
left to stage down a (Force - Armor)D+ whatever wound. If you don't
stage it far enough, you're in trouble.


> If you go past D, then you're dying, and will be dead in <some period
> which I forget>.

If you didn't
stage it down, or didn't stage it down far enough someone else can do
first aid on you, if they have the Biotech Skill, and if they succeed
against a 10 you are stabilized and won't bleed to death. You also get a
Body roll, if someone else does first aid on you and fails their Test,
against a TN of 10 to stabilize on your own.

In our game, if after resisting it down you've still
> overflowed the equivalent of the Physical Overflow box, you'd be dead
> right then. It represents so much damage that even instantly applied
> super-powerful healing has no chance of saving you.
>

Yes, but you aren't playing Shadowrun either. You're playing a game
loosly based on the Shadowrun rules, but it ain't Shadowrun.

> But then, we play that you can't be Healed if you've had critical body
> parts removed (heart, lungs, head, ...), either.

That's logic, and doesn't even need a rule.

Ivy
Message no. 14
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 15:38:02 -0700
Lotsa luck on those plans. They are located in 2 places. Engineering's
off-line computer and Security's off-line computer.

On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Paolo Marcucci wrote:
>
> Ehm... do any of you have the air conditioning shaft plans for the
> Renraku Arcology? My players asked for them sunday....
>

Ivy
Message no. 15
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 08:07:26 -0600
Ivy replies to Paolo's question about 'Raku's HVAC shaft plans--
"....They are located in 2 places. Engineering's off-line computer and
Security's off-line computer."

Ivy, you forget that all structures must meet building codes-and before the
arguement begins, allow me to clarify...
Even with the megacorps being autonomous, they can still be charged with
"toxic dumping"[see Corporate Shadowfiles]. Their realm of autonomy is
a cone about 10 miles wide at the base and 10 miles high. [that is from
memory, so the book may have different numbers...] Any toxic contaminates
leaching out from that cone of autonomy is considered pollution and
can be fined by the city or Corporate Court. It is my estimation that
in order to meet regulations, the corp must file some kind of plan for
the areas which store and handle transport for those generated wastes.
Therefore, a copy of those plans must be on record in the City Architects
office, or at the Hall of Records. THose plans may or may not include the
HVAC plans, depending on what you as GM determine they pump into the
atmosphere...
Just my opinion...
Bryan Prince
Message no. 16
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:35:10 -0400
Brian Prince writes:

[stuff about Renraku filing plans with the City Board of Architects]

You forget however, that no megacorp, and certainly no arcology is going
to leave those plans anywhere accessible. Any Renraku exec worth his
salary is going to send deckers in to wipe those plans from the
not-so-secure architectural board's system before they can fall into the
wrong hands.

If y'all want a good idea of the paranoia involved in trying to keep an
arcology from being terrorized or sabotaged, and some of the prevention
systems the corps will use for just such occasions, I strongly suggest
the novel "Oath of Fealty" by Larry Niven and/or Jerry Pournelle.

Marc
Message no. 17
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:41:08 -0400
OK, folks. To clear up all of the confusion about physical overflow
and instantly killing wounds, here goes...

1. No wound may do more than Deadly damage in a single hit. This rule
is used in both first and second edition.

2. If a series of wounds brought the character to ten plus a number of
boxes equal to the natural body, that character was DEAD, and beyond all
medical and magical help. At any time before that the cahracter may be
treated/healed/stabilized/given first aid, as per the extent and type of
wound received. This "Physical Overflow" is unique to SRII.

3. Fields of Fire introduced a new optional rule that said that for
every two successes over deadly damage, an additional box of damage was
inflicted and recorded on the physical overflow monitor. This allowed
for instant death.

>>>>>Some of us realized that the "no damage above deadly"
thing was
cheesy, and have always played with the house rule of staging starting
out at Light-over-Deadly, Moderate-over-Deadly, Serious-over-Deadly,
Deadly-over-Deadly ad infinitum. So, this allowed you to get pasted
beyond belief in a single hit, which is appropriate in many situations.
Makes players paranoid too. Heh.

Marc
Message no. 18
From: Bryan Prince <WALAB@******.HH.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 12:12:34 -0600
Marc rebuts my arguements about the City Architects office...
I agree that they wouldn't leave sensitive data there, but how sensitive
is a HVAC system? If you rank it fairly high, then the arcology would file
a "dummy" set that doesn't include the sensitive data, and perhaps a misleading
set. But to meet the rules from Corporate Shadowfiles, some form of
documentation must exist. That is all I'm saying.
Bryan
Message no. 19
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.EFN.ORG>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 1994 12:04:50 -0700
On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> Ivy replies to Paolo's question about 'Raku's HVAC shaft plans--
> "....They are located in 2 places. Engineering's off-line computer and
> Security's off-line computer."
>
> Ivy, you forget that all structures must meet building codes-and before the
> arguement begins, allow me to clarify...
> Even with the megacorps being autonomous, they can still be charged with
> "toxic dumping"[see Corporate Shadowfiles]. Their realm of autonomy is


Not a bad thought, Bryan. But... The testing for "hot" seepage can
easily be done using exterior testing. And, the Corps, with their
extraterritoriality just plain aren't going to file anything with an
outside group, government or not.

If, as GM, you decide that they do file things, I'll bet that any
building plans they did file are completely inaccurate except for things
that can be measured from off their property.

I Have some experience with "necessary" plans being filed with a
governmental office by a secure facility some years ago. The locations
of the doors and windows (all 2 of them) were accurate. Nothing else was
except for the height of the building.

The corps just aren't going to give anything away. At all.

Ivy
Message no. 20
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 1994 09:11:15 -0400
On Fri, 15 Jul 1994, Bryan Prince wrote:

> Marc rebuts my arguements about the City Architects office...
> I agree that they wouldn't leave sensitive data there, but how sensitive
> is a HVAC system? If you rank it fairly high, then the arcology would file
> a "dummy" set that doesn't include the sensitive data, and perhaps a
misleading
> set. But to meet the rules from Corporate Shadowfiles, some form of
> documentation must exist. That is all I'm saying.
> Bryan
>

Oooooh! Dummy plans. Now there's a twist I hadn't considered to its
full evilness. Heh, I can just imagine the players surprise. "But it
says that there's a tunnel right here! No, I don't know how we ended up
here. I don't even know where here is!"

Heh.

Marc
Message no. 21
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: novice question (fwd)
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 17:11:24 +1000
Paolo Marcucci:

> Ehm... do any of you have the air conditioning shaft plans for the
> Renraku Arcology? My players asked for them sunday....

Sure. Some say that Renraku plans aren't available at all, outside
the highest security parts of Renraku itself.

But Renraku Security give away cheaply (via cleverly concealed subsidiaries),
a twisty map of the air con that happens to lead (one-way) into high security
cells, where visitors can just drop in for intensive questioning. :-)

luke

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