From: | Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM> |
---|---|
Subject: | Re: Nth Extrapolation, a reasoned response and query |
Date: | Sun, 9 Nov 1997 00:00:42 PST |
>Subject: Nth Extrapolation (Re: (Vehicular Nano-Doc))
>Giving it AI or even something close to that is, that is the discussion
I was originally referring to.
I assume near AI capabilities would be needed to coordinate the
activities of the "nanites" to the larger task of repairing a vehicle.
No system I see in SR that is portable even comes near the power.
Learning pool aplies to a single, macroscale drone, at a high price.
Battle-tac's need to be on each drone in a network, and routed through a
deck that all drones are subscribed to. That implies either each nanite
carries good computing power, or they have a godlike communication
system (like a deck with a rating on the same order as the number of
nanites).
However, by AI, I do not mean that the system is self adaptive or
aware. Hackers working with the tech will take care of warping it into
twisted, unpredictable uses just fine!
> Everyone who posted a book, did so for books that
>involved the Nanites (crunch name here btw) making an evolutionary
>leap.
Actually, I mentioned only Neal Stepenson's "Diamond Age", which is
about SOCIETY making an evolutionary leap in response to nanotech not
too much more advanced than what you propose. It is set about 75 years
after the story in "Snowcrash", all the technology in Snowcrash being
more or less available to people in the SR world.
Yes, it suposes molecular manipulation. No, imho, that is not the
basic requirement for a masive societal impact- self replication and
versatility go most of the way.
>> Given:
>> A nanite repair system that can:
>> A) self replicate from stock materials.
>> B) Make alterations (repairs) to large scale objects composed of
>> complicated and multiple materials (vehicles).
>>
>> Result:
>> You have a nanite technology with few limits on its capability.
Self intellegence not required. "The street finds its own use for
things."
>
>No arguments there.
Good- at least we are talking about the same thing, not apples and
oranges!
>> Its like saying that pure matter coversion technolgy would be
limited to only synthesizing food, because somebody invented a "food
>> replicator".
>
>No, actually it isn't. It's saying that a physical construction tool
can do physically constructive (or destructive) things.
The point of my analogy was that a technolgy allowing dirrect
instantiation of physical goods by self replicating devices would be
uncontrolable in its socail, economic, and political impact. Nanite are
to poweful to be considered just a tool, if they have any level of
versatility.
>What I meant, and you went passed immediately, was that extrapolation
had limits that went beyond the original post. Everything has its
beginning, and all of what you said is true, in THEORY. But all of it
requires some leaps in science that is beyond so much.
>
IMHO, the original proposed device is so close in practice to a
"univerasal nano assembler" that it would rapidly lead to all the
scintific advances mentioned.
>> Originaly, the topic was what the stats for a nanite vehicle
repair system would likely be. My best guess was that such a system
could not existin SR without causing a huge world impact.
>
>That isn't how you worded it, your comments were on the line of (not a
quote, can't find the post now) 'such developments couldn't exist with
SR's existing tech level.'
Yes, I still believe it would take much advancement. If it WERE
possible, it would be done, and SR3 will be about a completely differnt
economic, social, and political setting.
>
>> Thus, likely stats: Mass, negligable (nanite storage plus small
nanite manufactured computer); cost, free or outrageous (like
software); availablity, nil (in 2057, probably until 3057).
Capabilties: equal to most other contemporary manufacture and medicine,
given proper opporating parameters, which would require collective
guidence of multitudes of independant entities for large scale
opperations. Synthesis of nano scale objects and possible custum
molecules not a problem. Such use might be sufficient for macroscale
effects.
>
>And it is the macroscale we are looking at. Vehicles, NOT molecules.
Youridea of mass is also -WAY- off. Nanites do require space,
especially the earlier theoretical models that haven't gone self aware.
I don't see how they requre much mass if they can self replicate-
cary an ounce, and, given materials, they will undergo geometric growth
wen needed until they bury the car.
> Also, go look at
>your Ant Colony (or other collective insectivorae for that matter).
Sure, they can do LOTS of things together, but I don't see them -dead
lifting- an entire engine block and carrying it away, or reshaping it
into something else. Trees, organic materials with organic flaws, yes.
Hard materials, that becomes questionable, if not outright difficult.
Actually, one way I think the MIGHT work is if they only carried out
chemical/ surfacing / materials tasks, and the heavy lifting/
fabrication was left to standard eqipment. A nanite paste capble of
forming a weld when applied to a joint would be keen, limited
aplication, and save some good time, not to mention mass on tools. If
the nanites could only be produced under restictive conditions (say a
vacuum chamber assembler device), you remove the "sorcerers aprentice"
syndrome of self replicating nanites as well.
>> Once you had the nainites, they could "repair" another car so
that it had a similar, but smaller, system. And so on, a
symbiotic...OOPs,
>> sorry, I was extrapolating.
>
>No, you are being headstrong. Take the first sentence. The Nanites
being suggested couldn't perform what you are suggesting, as they have
to have the ability to not only B/R (which means following a form or
design), but they must also have the ability to extrapolate on their
own. To augment and adjust for design. Without some VERY scary
Learning Pools (using an R2 rule), that is simply not going to be
possible in the current game system.
Figh. Building to half scale would be NO PROBLEM for a nanite, and
have no effect on the systems opperation. If they have B/R, just feed
in the specs, then install the smaller system in your own and others
cars.
The "symbiotic" aspect comes in when some jookster reprograms his
vehicular nano-doc to produce the equivelant of a vehicular "virus" or
"worm", that installs on every possible vehicle- hell, hacking through
gridlink, a COMPUTER hacker might be able to reprogram the nano-doc for
many other purposes.
Nano-hackers would then push the technology as far as they could,
leading to all sorts of chaos. That sort of speculation starts to go a
bit beyond necessary lines, though.
I guess I have little faith in the users to stick within "suggested"
opertions parameters, or those parameters to remain controlable by
ANYONE once they start getting messed with to much. Not that the tech
would be self aware, just out of control.
>
>> I'd actually say the situation of comparing SR nanites to
"nanomech" resembles the comparing the invention of the jaquard loom to
the PC. Both "do the same thing", but there is a universe of
differnence, in both scientific and engeneering progress.
>
>Yes, now just imagine if the Loom had been followed more correctly in
it's theory and apply such to actual medical usage beyond the age
apparent. Now there is Biotechnology waiting to happen. Stringing
strands of cellular mycotin along a pattern as designated by the
determinating factors/controllers. Quite feasible, quite expensive, but
already here. Please note I said cellular, not molecular.
If somebody had wanted to, they could have produced an acounting
systenm that would save no real time and money using a mechanical "loom"
type technology. Same goes for fixing cars with "nanites" in SR, IMO.
>
>You know what, there is stuff in SR that already does that. You want
to do
>what you are suggesting, go place the BattleTAC in control of the
Nanites,
>give it a major Flux Rating and each Nanite enough portable power
(grass =/=
>electrical current without something more) and then maybe, maybe, you
will
>get what you are stating.
>
>-K
>
Could you clarify that last for me? I don't undestand what your
getting at, besides that maybe how i picture "nanites" opperating is
very different from what you picture. Yes, i assume they need apower
source (not a problem- induction field, peizo electrics, micro flywheel)
and co-ordinated activity (problem).
Aside from technology being possible, do you expext to intigrate the
rapid socio-logical upheval the vehicular nano-doc system's technolgy
would lead to into any game you use the device in?
If you assume there is some limit on the adaptivity of the technolgy
to other purposes, what are those inherent limits? They would, IMO,
have to be hardware, not software, based. Otherwise, sombody like the
otaku would soon solve any software problems.
Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein
get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm
====================================================================
>BTW, has anyone else heard they know how to turn aging on? Has anyone
else heard that they can keep the mouse from aging to death?
Isn't that the ting where they basically starved the mouse and kept its
oxegen consumption minimal? It had been a theory for a LONG time, and
they proved that minimizing celular metabolism prolongs life, yeah. Not
my choice for a fun lifestyle, however. I hear the proportional human
diet is like 500 calories per day, if thats possible with full
nutrition, and even the original researches are not sure thats safe.
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