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Message no. 1
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:09:48 -0700
At 09:14 PM 8/17/00 -0400, Syphon wrote:

>xenya@********.com writes:
>
> > Those two bombs may have saved more lives than they took. In other
> > words, "this isn't a black and white matter."
>
>More American lives. Though I wasn't anywhere near alive at the time (I
>doubt any of us were) I'm sure the Japanese didn't mind losing a ton of
>their CIVILIANS to save some of their enemy's soldiers
>lives.....riiiiiight..... The problem with your line of reasoning is this:
>soldiers die. That's part of their job....fight to protect their country,
>and understand they may get killed doing it.

The problem with the soldiers' dying being part of their job is that all
those Americans in the Pacific Theater were there not because they
volunteered out of blind patriotism, but because of a general draft that
would not have been necessary had the Japanese not bombed Pearl Harbor in
the first place.

>The civilians of Japan had little choice in what their leadership did
>involving the war, and with our great American capacity for understanding,
>we dropped a friggin sun on two of their cities.

And don't even think we won't do it again. It is generally accepted that
the bombing of Hiroshima was a strategic decision designed to break Japan's
back and bring Hirohito to the bargaining table. Nuking Nagasaki was a
political maneuver, and is largely viewed as grand-standing just to make
sure we had Stalin's attention, too.

After Pearl Harbor, one of the Japanese commanders (either Yamamoto or
Tojo, but maybe their former US ambassador) said, "I fear we have awakened
a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve." I am quite sure
that was a lesson hard learned. The message the US Government sent was
received loud and clear, and it will be a long, long while before anyone
tries pulling another stunt like Pearl Harbor.

Which brings us slightly back on topic with this question: Given the rise
in magical power (and defense) in the Sixth World, are thermonuclear
devices even a viable weapon of mass destruction still held in reserve by
governments & megacorps? Or does the ritual magic-type stuff deliver more
bang for your buck?

How many tac-nukes equal a Ghost Dance?

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 2
From: caelric@****.com caelric@****.com
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 20:11:27 -0700
At 08:09 PM 8/17/00 -0700, Snake-eyes wrote:

>
>Which brings us slightly back on topic with this question: Given the rise
>in magical power (and defense) in the Sixth World, are thermonuclear
>devices even a viable weapon of mass destruction still held in reserve by
>governments & megacorps?

Well, whether or not ritual magic is used more than nukes, nukes, or at
least tac-nukes are used in SR. Read 'Burning Bright' to learn about how a
tac-nuke helped in the creation of Bug City. Said tac-nuke was employed by
an Ares strike team. So, since novels, or at least that novel or more or
less SR canon, megacorps have tac-nukes, and they are still used in 2061.


Dave
Message no. 3
From: Wordman wordman@*******.com
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:18:59 -0400
> After Pearl Harbor, one of the Japanese commanders (either Yamamoto or
> Tojo, but maybe their former US ambassador) said, "I fear we have
> awakened
> a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

I thought it was the "sleeping dragon".

Wordman
Message no. 4
From: SyphonAC@***.com SyphonAC@***.com
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 23:23:53 EDT
In a message dated 8/17/00 11:16:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
caelric@****.com writes:

> >
> >Which brings us slightly back on topic with this question: Given the
rise
> >in magical power (and defense) in the Sixth World, are thermonuclear
> >devices even a viable weapon of mass destruction still held in reserve by
> >governments & megacorps?
>
> Well, whether or not ritual magic is used more than nukes, nukes, or at
> least tac-nukes are used in SR. Read 'Burning Bright' to learn about how a
> tac-nuke helped in the creation of Bug City. Said tac-nuke was employed by
> an Ares strike team. So, since novels, or at least that novel or more or
> less SR canon, megacorps have tac-nukes, and they are still used in 2061.
>
>
> Dave
>

I seem to remember a blurb in the Winternight section of Threats about a tac
nuke being inlaid with Orichalcum. That could prove interesting.

Syphon
Message no. 5
From: Snake Eyes snake.eyes@***.net
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 21:03:09 -0700
At 11:18 PM 8/17/00 -0400, Wordman wrote:

> > After Pearl Harbor, one of the Japanese commanders (either Yamamoto or
> > Tojo, but maybe their former US ambassador) said, "I fear we have
> > awakened
> > a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
>
>I thought it was the "sleeping dragon".

Damn. Now I'll actually have to look it up. I was hoping to avoid that.

~ Snake Eyes
Message no. 6
From: DragonC147@***.com DragonC147@***.com
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 00:36:30 EDT
Hi,

I'm not sure if you guys were awake today, but i believe it was Showtime
had a special this morning on the events and decisions that led up to the
bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The reason we bombed was to save american
lives, and since it was a political decision rather than a moral one that is
what we did. Because the American public at that time would have never
accepted the trading of hundreds of thousands of americans instead of taking
several hundred thousand Japanese civilians (although not everyone who was
killed was a civilian, and 130,000 were killed at hiroshima i'm not sure
about nagasaki).
Also what would the Japanese civilian casualties have been if we had
invaded? probably more than the bombs took.
Also the sites that were chosen were chosen to have a military effect.
One city, Kyoto, was not bombed because of the religious significance of the
city even though it was the top military target for the bomb.
Also the emporer and his advisors had been trying to negotiate and end to
conflicts for several months before the bombs were dropped, the problem was
that the Army had control over all communications and so the Emporer tried to
negotiate through Stalin, but Stalin didn't want a part of it.
Also I believe that if a situtation came up where the use of the A-Bomb
would save lots of US lives that we would use it again. I believe that we
would NOT use Chemical or Biological weapons, but if the situation warrented
it Nuclear weapons would be used. Although I doubt a situation that will
warrant the use of the bomb will ever come in the future, unless an NBC
attack is launched against the US, in which case I believe that we will stick
to the SOP of retaliating with Nukes.
As to the use of Ritual Magic vs. Nukes; Probably ever megacorp and
government has both. Some countries lean more towards one than the other,
like Aztlan and the NAN's have more Ritual Magic than nukes, and the
CAS/UCAS/CalFree have more nukes. It depends on the country and the
availability of magic.

Dragon Claw
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:50:33 +0200
According to Snake Eyes, at 20:09 on 17 Aug 00, the word on the street
was...

> And don't even think we won't do it again. It is generally accepted that
> the bombing of Hiroshima was a strategic decision designed to break Japan's
> back and bring Hirohito to the bargaining table.

Just a small detail: Hirohito didn't matter; yes, he was the emperor, but
the actual power lay with the military.

> Nuking Nagasaki was a political maneuver, and is largely viewed as
> grand-standing just to make sure we had Stalin's attention, too.

Who, almost certainly, already knew about the US atomic bomb anyway.

> Which brings us slightly back on topic with this question: Given the rise
> in magical power (and defense) in the Sixth World, are thermonuclear
> devices even a viable weapon of mass destruction still held in reserve by
> governments & megacorps? Or does the ritual magic-type stuff deliver more
> bang for your buck?

I'd say they do... For a Great Ghost Dance you need thousands of dancers,
lots of whom will die from Drain, and plenty of time to perform the dance.
It would be fairly cheap, though, especially if the participants are
fanatics devoted to their goal.

For a nuclear weapon, you need a bunch of technicians, an aircraft or
missile, the necessary support facilities, and a fairly short time to
actually deliver the weapon. All this is expensive to build and maintain.

IOW, if you have lots of people and the right knowledge, but no money, you
do a Ghost Dance. If you have few people but lots of money, you go for
nuclear weapons. Especially as a counter-strike against someone trying to
Ghost Dance you -- response times for ICBMs are in the order of 10 minutes
from the initial alert, IIRC, so they're on their target on the other side
of the world in an hour at most. A GGD takes days, and initial
preparations for one would probably be easily detected (with pictures from
spy satellites, listening in on the communications needed to organize it
all, etc.) so once the ritual starts you drop a nuclear weapon into the
middle of them and you're done...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Imagine doing just what the Big Bang did
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Spike spike1@****.freenet.co.uk
Subject: Nukes (was Re: Fw: Want a new Limb?)
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:31:06 +0100 (BST)
And verily, didst Gurth babble thusly...
> IOW, if you have lots of people and the right knowledge, but no money, you
> do a Ghost Dance. If you have few people but lots of money, you go for
> nuclear weapons. Especially as a counter-strike against someone trying to
> Ghost Dance you -- response times for ICBMs are in the order of 10 minutes
> from the initial alert, IIRC, so they're on their target on the other side
> of the world in an hour at most. A GGD takes days, and initial
> preparations for one would probably be easily detected (with pictures from
> spy satellites, listening in on the communications needed to organize it
> all, etc.) so once the ritual starts you drop a nuclear weapon into the
> middle of them and you're done...

Unless said fanatics have been clever, and disguised their little get
together as a music festival like woodstock...

:)

--
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|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
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