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Message no. 1
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:39:08 -0700 (PDT)
I'd like to say something here, and hopefully it will
give the developers something to consider as they
redefine Shadowrun: Nuts and Bolts FIRST. Establish
the game mechanics. That is the obvious first step.
But, after that (or during, depending on your
perspective) then establish the basic rules for
encumbrance, getting sick vs staying healthy (I have a
hard time believing no one in the SR Universe ever
gets the flu or a cold), population of the world and
the different nuances approriate to each location (the
latter can be accomplished by publishing a thorough
and comprehensive Shadowrun atlas, almanac, gazeteer,
etc. of the SR world).

Established guidelines such as these will allow the
players and GMs to fashion their adventures the way
they like building on a universe already established
by the developers. But if the developers don't DEVELOP
anything (i.e.: saying that they want to let the
players decide the nuts and bolts of the game because
we the developers don't want to spend the time working
on the boring stuff), then Shadowrun will lose it's
appeal.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

-Scott
Message no. 2
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:02:36 +0200
From: "Scott Hiller" <scotthiller2002@*****.com>
> I'd like to say something here, and hopefully it will
> give the developers something to consider as they
> redefine Shadowrun: Nuts and Bolts FIRST. Establish
> the game mechanics. That is the obvious first step.

It is, and sure the developers are duing their best, now lest hope it's also
good enough, or rather "The Best".

> But, after that (or during, depending on your
> perspective) then establish the basic rules for
> encumbrance

We will ned that, and something more sensible than andy previous edition of
SR.

> getting sick vs staying healthy (I have a
> hard time believing no one in the SR Universe ever
> gets the flu or a cold)

Sure people are getting the cold and the ful, but is it realy interesting
from a roleplaying perspective?

If it is you can look it up everywhere.

How about having people with handicaps? I have a daughter with KFS, someting
1 in 5 mill, gets. Sure it's interesting (for our familiy at least), but I
wouldn't deam about roleplaying anybody with KFS, the flu or any other
illness. Roleplaying isn't about every little detail. Next thing you will
have to roleplay every trip to the toilet.

Give us something interesting to roleplay, of which the flu and colds are
not part.

> population of the world and
> the different nuances approriate to each location (the
> latter can be accomplished by publishing a thorough
> and comprehensive Shadowrun atlas, almanac, gazeteer,
> etc. of the SR world).

I would love that.

> Established guidelines such as these will allow the
> players and GMs to fashion their adventures the way
> they like building on a universe already established
> by the developers. But if the developers don't DEVELOP
> anything (i.e.: saying that they want to let the
> players decide the nuts and bolts of the game because
> we the developers don't want to spend the time working
> on the boring stuff), then Shadowrun will lose it's
> appeal.

Nut and bolts, but not boring little details. The line is fine, and I'm sure
we will fall on different sides of that in many discussions, so how can the
developers hit the right line each time?

Lars
Message no. 3
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:08:17 -0700 (PDT)
--- Scott Hiller <scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
> I'd like to say something here, and hopefully it
> will
> give the developers something to consider as they
> redefine Shadowrun: Nuts and Bolts FIRST. Establish
> the game mechanics. That is the obvious first step.
> But, after that (or during, depending on your
> perspective) then establish the basic rules for
> encumbrance, getting sick vs staying healthy (I have
> a
> hard time believing no one in the SR Universe ever
> gets the flu or a cold),
> population of the world and
> the different nuances approriate to each location
> (the
> latter can be accomplished by publishing a thorough
> and comprehensive Shadowrun atlas, almanac,
> gazeteer,
> etc. of the SR world).

So you might agree with the statement that doing new
nuts&bolts for an already defined game-world is a bad
thing? This wouldn't really matter for SR4, as the
game world will be reconceived in accordance with the
timeline jump. This allows nuts&bolts to be worked out
first, after which the 6th world can be written up
pretty much as desired.

> Established guidelines such as these will allow the
> players and GMs to fashion their adventures the way
> they like building on a universe already established
> by the developers. But if the developers don't
> DEVELOP
> anything (i.e.: saying that they want to let the
> players decide the nuts and bolts of the game
> because
> we the developers don't want to spend the time
> working
> on the boring stuff), then Shadowrun will lose it's
> appeal.

Aren't the nuts&bolts the boring stuff? It's the rules
that make the game, not the dice being rolled (D20 is
a good example of this; there's D20 and there's the
games that implement it). To be fair, Shadowrun with
D20 would be... well... Shadowrun D20. It's a strange
thought and I feel it'd straitjacket the game into a
shape it shouldn't take on, but it's possible and I
bet it'd be playable. OTOH, if FanPro develops a D6
system that transferrable to other products, then that
would be just amazingly great. Come to think of it, is
Earthdawn getting a new edition anytime soon?

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 4
From: Toubrouk@*********.ca (Toubrouk)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:35:33 -0400
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:02:36, "Lars Wagner Hansen" wrote:


>How about having people with handicaps? I have a daughter with KFS, someting
>1 in 5 mill, gets. Sure it's interesting (for our familiy at least), but I
>wouldn't deam about roleplaying anybody with KFS, the flu or any other
>illness. Roleplaying isn't about every little detail. Next thing you will
>have to roleplay every trip to the toilet.
>
>Give us something interesting to roleplay, of which the flu and colds are
>not part.
>
I had a caracter with an handicap once.

It was in a "Futuristic" Shadowrun game where hummanity had colonized
the solar system. My PC was a Spaceship rigger. He was born and raised
in space. The little problem with him is that he suffered from the
"Brittle Bone" disease. He had a low strengh and body, a plastic bone
lace, was 6'4" and 160lbs wet. Every time he was around a 0.8G gravity,
he started complaining about pains. At 1G, he was wheelchair bound. It
was limitative but a blast to roleplay.

In roleplaying games, sometimes we must leave the min-max attitude aside
to get a great roleplay experience. Roleplaying an handicap was a great
experience for me.
Message no. 5
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:37:20 -0600
On 19-Apr-05, at 11:08 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> Come to think of it, is
> Earthdawn getting a new edition anytime soon?

Two companies hold the rights to publish English-language Earthdawn
products:

* Living Room Games <http://www.lrgames.com>; publishing Earthdawn
Second Edition, a continuation of FASA's timeline.

* RedBrick Publishing <http://www.earthdawn-classic.com/>; publishing
"Classic Earthdawn" which, quite frankly, I don't really understand and
from what I do understand I think they're insane, but to my
understanding it's a bunch of first edition stuff, compiled into two
huge books, a Player's and GM's guide. There's also been some rumblings
that they're going to release a Third Edition.

Both companies have non-exclusive licenses, so what one does doesn't
directly affect the other, except for market confusion.

Cheers,
Adam

--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 6
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:44:58 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> On 19-Apr-05, at 11:08 AM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
> wrote:

[snip ED line ramification]

*shudder*

I'd hate to think what that would do to a vocal
fanbase. Are there any similar instances of line dev.
being split like that in RPG history?

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 7
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:52:12 +0100
On Apr 19, 2005, at 18:37, Adam Jury wrote:

> Two companies hold the rights to publish English-language Earthdawn
> products:
>
> * Living Room Games <http://www.lrgames.com>; publishing Earthdawn
> Second Edition, a continuation of FASA's timeline.
>
> * RedBrick Publishing <http://www.earthdawn-classic.com/>; publishing
> "Classic Earthdawn" which, quite frankly, I don't really understand
> and from what I do understand I think they're insane, but to my
> understanding it's a bunch of first edition stuff, compiled into two
> huge books, a Player's and GM's guide. There's also been some
> rumblings that they're going to release a Third Edition.
>
> Both companies have non-exclusive licenses, so what one does doesn't
> directly affect the other, except for market confusion.

All right, this begs the question... Did anyone actually *think* that
this would be an even remotely good idea for the game!?

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 8
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:40:27 +0200
On Apr 19, 2005, at 22:52, Max Noel wrote:

>
> On Apr 19, 2005, at 18:37, Adam Jury wrote:
>
>> Two companies hold the rights to publish English-language Earthdawn
>> products:
>>
>> * Living Room Games <http://www.lrgames.com>; publishing Earthdawn
>> Second Edition, a continuation of FASA's timeline.
>>
>> * RedBrick Publishing <http://www.earthdawn-classic.com/>; publishing
>> "Classic Earthdawn" which, quite frankly, I don't really understand
>> and from what I do understand I think they're insane, but to my
>> understanding it's a bunch of first edition stuff, compiled into two
>> huge books, a Player's and GM's guide. There's also been some
>> rumblings that they're going to release a Third Edition.
>>
>> Both companies have non-exclusive licenses, so what one does doesn't
>> directly affect the other, except for market confusion.
>
> All right, this begs the question... Did anyone actually *think* that
> this would be an even remotely good idea for the game!?
>
The fact that RedBrick is making the original books available in PDF
seems to be a good idea. Why they started with Horrors is unknown to
me -- and sadly having scanned versions only is another limitation (I
assume). I have never taken an interest in version 2 of Earthdawn so I
really don't mind.

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 9
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:46:12 -0400
At 01:35 PM 4/19/2005 -0400, Toubrouk <Toubrouk@*********.ca> wrote:

>I had a caracter with an handicap once.

As did I. Mine was Paisley, an Astral Adept detective (think "Professor X").
He discovered his talent while on the threshold of death from some sort
of nasty ailment or another.
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 10
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:46:56 -0400
At 11:37 AM 4/19/2005 -0600, you wrote:

>Two companies hold the rights to publish English-language Earthdawn
>products:
>
>* Living Room Games <http://www.lrgames.com>; publishing Earthdawn
>Second Edition, a continuation of FASA's timeline.
>
>* RedBrick Publishing <http://www.earthdawn-classic.com/>; publishing
>"Classic Earthdawn" which, quite frankly, I don't really understand and
>from what I do understand I think they're insane, but to my
>understanding it's a bunch of first edition stuff, compiled into two
>huge books, a Player's and GM's guide. There's also been some rumblings
>that they're going to release a Third Edition.

Huh? How did that happen?
--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 11
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:07:41 -0600
On 19-Apr-05, at 3:46 PM, Ubiquitous wrote:

> Huh? How did that happen?

The joys of non-exclusive licensing agreements. :-)

Cheers,
Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 12
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> On 19-Apr-05, at 3:46 PM, Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> > Huh? How did that happen?
>
> The joys of non-exclusive licensing agreements. :-)

The ED customer might soon be given the real choice of
switching line developers (i.e.: who gets the dollars
for a single license) when things aren't going the way
they want to see it happen... next thing people can
pledge money towards certain plot developments....
players will get involved so that expansions aimed at
making their particular PC's more powerful are made
and before you known it there'll be a MMORPG called
EarthdawnQuest.

It's just what this list seems to be calling for,
though: some company buying a license to develop SR3!
All this just to shut Ice Heart up :-D (please don't
take that the wrong way; I'm in fact saying a lot of
effort should be made to satisfy your SR3-inclined
wishes).

Alternatively, people can just contribute to the
6thworld Wiki, which (I hope) will retain an SR3 area
or tag.

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 13
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:40:09 -0600
On 19-Apr-05, at 4:20 PM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> Alternatively, people can just contribute to the
> 6thworld Wiki, which (I hope) will retain an SR3 area
> or tag.

The Sixth World Wiki, being about the Sixth World and not the game
Shadowrun, is entirely independent of the various editions of
Shadowrun.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 14
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
--- Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> On 19-Apr-05, at 4:20 PM, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
> wrote:
>
> > Alternatively, people can just contribute to the
> > 6thworld Wiki, which (I hope) will retain an SR3
> area
> > or tag.
>
> The Sixth World Wiki, being about the Sixth World
> and not the game
> Shadowrun, is entirely independent of the various
> editions of
> Shadowrun.

Do location write-ups have to be dated to remain
somewhat congruous with the contents of Shadowrun, or
at least have a timeline format to orient the reader
of SixthWorld qua canon? Perhaps this method of
orientation is now mentioned in the Wiki('s editing
guidelines); I haven't checked it for a while.

cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 15
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:29:04 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Max Noel wrote:

> On Apr 19, 2005, at 18:37, Adam Jury wrote:
>
> > Two companies hold the rights to publish English-language Earthdawn
> > products:
> >
> > * Living Room Games <http://www.lrgames.com>; publishing Earthdawn
> > Second Edition, a continuation of FASA's timeline.
> >
> > * RedBrick Publishing <http://www.earthdawn-classic.com/>; publishing
> > "Classic Earthdawn" which, quite frankly, I don't really understand
> > and from what I do understand I think they're insane, but to my
> > understanding it's a bunch of first edition stuff, compiled into two
> > huge books, a Player's and GM's guide. There's also been some
> > rumblings that they're going to release a Third Edition.
> >
> > Both companies have non-exclusive licenses, so what one does doesn't
> > directly affect the other, except for market confusion.
>
> All right, this begs the question... Did anyone actually *think* that
> this would be an even remotely good idea for the game!?
>

Considering the market size of Earthdawn it was generally considered a bad
idea by a portion of the mailing list. Of course, the other half thought
that this was the greatest thing ever because this company would somehow
be able to magicly do everything LRG couldn't, the line developer of
Redbrick promising the world helped with th is perception.

Statements like "LRG why can't you publish a hardcover colour plate book
at this price, white wolf does it!" are not uncommon on that list however....
Message no. 16
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:19:29 -0700 (PDT)
Look, guys. All I was saying was make sure you guys
are laying down the ground work FIRST for the
Shadowrun world, then figure out a way to intigrate
the fluidity of time passing throughout the Shadowrun
time-line as time goes on in the Shadowrun game.

Yeah, having a PC comedown with a cold or the flu
wouldn't make a good role-playing scenario. And that
was not what I was saying. What I was saying was that
there could be a way for the GM to roll however many
dice on a Random Event Table, and have one of those be
a cold or the flu, then figure out how long the PC is
infirmed. I'm not saying do this all the time, but
once in a while would be cool for the game for a sense
of realism and relatability to common problems. For
example, people get sick at work, at camp, etc. so why
not have a PC get sick on a Shadowrun? Plus this could
precipitate into items the PC could get to prevent
such things from happening.

That said, I'd also like to suggest the creation of a
Random Encounters Table for different locations (i.e.
Seattle, forests, plains, deserts, sprawls, toxic
zones,the air, underwater, in space, on the highway,
on the surface of the water, temperate zones, arctic
zones, tropical zones, etc.) One example that comes to
mind is the old Dungeons and Dragons material ... they
had encounter tables for Cold Freshwater Surface, Cold
Freshwater Depths, Cold Saltwater Surface, Cold
Saltwater Depths, Temperate Freshwater Surface,
Temperate Freshwater Depths, Tropical and Subtropical
Saltwater Surface, Tropical and Subtropical Saltwater
Depths, Tropical and Subtropical Surface, Tropical and
Subtropical Freshwater Depths, Cold Civilized
Mountains, COld CIvilized Hills, Cold Civilized
Forest, Cold Civilized Swamp, Cold, Civilized Plains,
Cold Civilized Desert ... they had more categories for
Random encounter tables for each climate zone (cold,
temperate, subtropical and tropical), level of
population (civilized or wilderness ... could be
converted to sprawl and non-sprawl for Shadowrun ...?)
and environment zone (mountains, hills, forest, swamp,
plains, and desert). They had a group of 20 creatures
per sub-category ... obviously, if the developers for
Shadowrun chose a similar approach, it could be
different, but I think the elements could be the same,
maybe include go-gangs, street gangs, and the
different archetypes like street samurai, hackers,
mages, shamans, mafia, yakuza, corporate, etc. ...
basically, include the elements of Shadowrun.

Also, I think they need to include archetype
thumbprints for more standard locations such as
airports, libraries, schools, colleges, universities,
prisons, as well as those that were originally
published in the old 1st Edition Sprawl Sites
Sourcebook, the 3rd Edition Mr. Johnson's Little Black
Book and Sprawl Survival Guide. Other locations could
be the sprawl's rapid transit system, aboard an
aircraft, on a luxury liner. You know, just some more
resources the GM can draw on to flesh out his game
world. I think there is a way to do this and not bog
down the game, but I don't know what that is ...
that's what the developers are paid for. :-)

Also, basic stuff like encumbrance, speed of travel
(be it either on foot or otherwise), and NPC reactions
should be developped more. Several Systems have good
ways of streemlining these so they make sense, the old
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a good example in the
DMs Guide (I hate to keep going back to the 1st Ed D&D
and the AD&D games, but they are the only ones that
come to mind now).

Also, there could be a way for the Shadowrun GM to
generate random "treasure," for lack of a better
phrase, be it in the Matrix, in physical space, or in
Astral Space.

Anyway, take care guys ... off to deposit my pay check
and head off to work! :-)

-Scott
Message no. 17
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:47:28 -0600
On 21-Apr-05, at 10:19 AM, Scott Hiller wrote:

> Look, guys. All I was saying was make sure you guys
> are laying down the ground work FIRST for the
> Shadowrun world, then figure out a way to intigrate
> the fluidity of time passing throughout the Shadowrun
> time-line as time goes on in the Shadowrun game.

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, but basically
you're asking for the same stuff you've been asking for in recent years
[some of which has been provided in recent supplements], and, uh,
random encounter tables. What you see as "ground work" or -- to put
words in your mouth -- "building blocks", I see as something
extraneous. I don't want random encounter charts: I want information so
I can make informed choices about how to structure an adventure set in
a specific part of the setting. Shadowrun, by and large, is _not_ a
"and random stuff happens!" game.

Sure, there are situations where player characters may run into
unplanned encounters, but any GM should be capable of making snap
decisions that mesh with the game world or, be capable of generating
random encounter charts in advance, if he thinks they are a desirable
facet of gameplay. If you have read the Shadowrun core rules, I think
you should be capable of making such decisions; throw in one of the
location books that has detailed information about politics, districts,
gangs, and other such facets of a city in the Sixth World, you should
be _more_ than capable of ad-libbing scenarios.

Certainly in SR4 core products, where page count is at a premium given
the richness of the Sixth World and the amount of information that
should be conveyed, spending 16, 8, or even 4 pages on random
generation charts seems like an extreme waste to me -- those sort of
things belong in a dedicated gamemastering book.

And that's not to say that I don't think Shadowrun GMs need all the
help they can get -- but I look at random generation tables, for the
most part, as being a tool. Without understanding of how to use a tool,
it's not going to be much use.

Best,
Adam
Message no. 18
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:54:42 -0700
Adam Jury wrote:
>
> Certainly in SR4 core products, where page count is at a
> premium given the richness of the Sixth World and the amount
> of information that should be conveyed, spending 16, 8, or
> even 4 pages on random generation charts seems like an
> extreme waste to me -- those sort of things belong in a
> dedicated gamemastering book.
>

Forgive me if this has been covered before, as I've lost interest in most
SR4 threads, since the game isn't out yet, but is that planned? I mean, a GM
book?

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:35:56 +0200
According to Scott Hiller, on 21-04-2005 18:19 the word on the street was...

> Also, basic stuff like encumbrance, speed of travel
> (be it either on foot or otherwise), and NPC reactions
> should be developped more. Several Systems have good
> ways of streemlining these so they make sense, the old
> Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a good example in the
> DMs Guide

You think AD&D was streamlined? You must have a different version than I
do ;)

> Also, there could be a way for the Shadowrun GM to
> generate random "treasure," for lack of a better
> phrase, be it in the Matrix, in physical space, or in
> Astral Space.

TBH, I can't really see the need for this kind of thing. In the Matrix,
OK, given that deckers have a habit of pilfering whatever data seems to
be worth something, but in the physical world, IMHO SR is not a game
where you get random treasures a lot.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 20
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:02:04 +0200
From: "Toubrouk" <Toubrouk@*********.ca>
> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:02:36, "Lars Wagner Hansen" wrote:
>
>>How about having people with handicaps? I have a daughter with KFS,
>>someting 1 in 5 mill, gets. Sure it's interesting (for our familiy at
>>least), but I wouldn't deam about roleplaying anybody with KFS, the flu or
>>any other illness. Roleplaying isn't about every little detail. Next thing
>>you will have to roleplay every trip to the toilet.
>>
>>Give us something interesting to roleplay, of which the flu and colds are
>>not part.
>>
> I had a caracter with an handicap once.
>
> It was in a "Futuristic" Shadowrun game where hummanity had colonized the
> solar system. My PC was a Spaceship rigger. He was born and raised in
> space. The little problem with him is that he suffered from the "Brittle
> Bone" disease. He had a low strengh and body, a plastic bone lace, was
> 6'4" and 160lbs wet. Every time he was around a 0.8G gravity, he started
> complaining about pains. At 1G, he was wheelchair bound. It was
> limitative but a blast to roleplay.
>
> In roleplaying games, sometimes we must leave the min-max attitude aside
> to get a great roleplay experience. Roleplaying an handicap was a great
> experience for me.

But I'm talking about a real-life handicap. Something that's just annoying.
Talking about visiting the hospital several times a year, visiting
specialists just as often, finding out that there parts of your body that
just doesn't work as expected.

Not just: Paraplexic: -1 BP, Blind: -4 BP, Mute: -3 BP or whatever.

When people play handicapped PCs in roleplaying games, they usually haven't
got a clue about what it is to have a real handicap.

Now who wants rules for all handicaps, viruses or other illnesses? If that's
what roelplaying is about, then go read OMIMTM - Online Mendelian
Inheritance in ManTM
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=OMIM), and I'm sure you
will be occupied for the rest of your life.

Roleplaying should be about things that are interesting...

Lars
Message no. 21
From: sp@*****.gr (Stefanos Patelis)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:07:42 +0300
Gurth wrote:

> According to Scott Hiller, on 21-04-2005 18:19 the word on the street
> was...
>
>> Also, there could be a way for the Shadowrun GM to
>> generate random "treasure," for lack of a better
>> phrase, be it in the Matrix, in physical space, or in
>> Astral Space.
>
>
> TBH, I can't really see the need for this kind of thing. In the
> Matrix, OK, given that deckers have a habit of pilfering whatever data
> seems to be worth something, but in the physical world, IMHO SR is not
> a game where you get random treasures a lot.
>
Exactly.

In fact the reason why the Shadowrun game appealed to me that much, back
in the old 1st and 2nd edition AD&D days, was mainly due to this
difference in game style. I would not go on a Shadowrun mission for just
some dungeoncrawling or treasure collecting. There were years were we
solely did one-offs - mini-campaigns or adventurers- and did not give
much attention to experience gathering. Character development was more
in-game accomplishments and infamy than Karma collecting.

In D&D you went in and tried to search every nook and cranny, kick every
single monster's encountered butt and colelcted every single item held
in the tower/crypt/cave/dungeon. In Shadowrun you had a specific
objective, you went in and out quickly, and there was more attention
paid to the "other stuff" like how the meet with the employers would go,
where the safe house was etc....

Talking about it I now realise I had three different game types in my
mind back then:

The D&D game - straight and blunt and shiny and glittery and full of
different dice.
The Shadowrun Game - A bit more complex in some aspects, still lots of
dice but of a sinlge type; and much cooler and slick in looks and style.
And much more dangerous.
And th eCall of Cthulhu game - Simple, straightforward storytelling
without much of the gold an dglitter of the others. No dungeoncrawling,
no monster bashing, no complex dice rolls and huge firefghts...Just
strong storylines and lots of scares!

--
Πατέλης
ΣτέφαΜος

EWORX S.A.
22 Rodou Street - Maroussi 15122 - Greece
tel: +30 210 61 48 380, +30 210 61 48 360
mob: +30 6978853066 - fax +30 210 6148381
mailto:sp@*****.gr -- http://www.eworx.gr
Message no. 22
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:26:58 +0200
From: "Scott Hiller" <scotthiller2002@*****.com>
<Snip>
> What I was saying was that
> there could be a way for the GM to roll however many
> dice on a Random Event Table, and have one of those be
> a cold or the flu, then figure out how long the PC is
> infirmed.

Why? Where is the fun.

GM: Ups I rolled a 23, that means you broke a leg, and went to the hospital.
Unfortunately according to the 66 I rolled afterwards, they gave you a
rather nasty infection, and you died of blood poisoning. Would you please
roll up another character?

> I'm not saying do this all the time, but
> once in a while would be cool for the game for a sense
> of realism and relatability to common problems.

Like going to the toilet, figuring out wether is runny or hard as rock. No
thanks.

> For
> example, people get sick at work, at camp, etc. so why
> not have a PC get sick on a Shadowrun?

So just as the team is about to do their job, which they have planned for
days. They even managed to do everything as good as possible, nobody knows
they are there, and nobody has been harmed. So just because of a roll on a
random event table, one of the characters starts to throw up all over the
place? Why? Sure it could be realistic, but if it's not part of the story
why would you even have it happen?

> Plus this could
> precipitate into items the PC could get to prevent
> such things from happening.

Why? People in the real world could just dress appropriate to the weather,
take their vitamin pills, wash their hands befor handling food, and a lot
more, and the world would be a healtyer place to live, but we don't.

Either you want realism at all levels, or you want an interesting story.

Why play shadowrunners at all, why not play normal people that have a normal
life, with a normal job, an normal spuse and some normal childern. Now that
would be interesting... NOT!

> That said, I'd also like to suggest the creation of a
> Random Encounters Table for different locations (i.e.
<Snip>

Next you will want big huge labyrinths, where Killer Sharks live side by
side with Dragons, old grumphy wizards, little kobolds, pixies and the
dreaded Blob.

> Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a good example in the
> DMs Guide (I hate to keep going back to the 1st Ed D&D
> and the AD&D games, but they are the only ones that
> come to mind now).

Cough! What are you talking about? Going back to the "good old days". I
thing RPG have advanced a lot since AD&D 1st edition. Sure I learned a lot
from AD&D, but a lest I don't have to give out XP according to the amount of
HP the dragon had or according to the value of it's treasure.

> Also, there could be a way for the Shadowrun GM to
> generate random "treasure," for lack of a better
> phrase, be it in the Matrix, in physical space, or in
> Astral Space.

Why? There are nor treasures in SR, why should the suddenly be random.

GM: So after you managed to kill the dragon and the old wizard, you look
through their treasures, and find that they had a "SMG of Lightning" and a
"Wand of Shadowrunner Slaying". Now isn't it funny that they didn't think
about using those agains you?

Lars
Message no. 23
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:29:59 +0200
From: "Adam Jury" <adamj@*********.com>
>
> And that's not to say that I don't think Shadowrun GMs need all the help
> they can get -- but I look at random generation tables, for the most part,
> as being a tool. Without understanding of how to use a tool, it's not
> going to be much use.

I have never in my life rolled on a random encounter table. What I have done
is to pick and choose from the table, and usually before the session
started, so I would be prepared for the encounter, even if it was "random"
in the way that it had nothing to do with the rest of the overall story.

Lars
Message no. 24
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:26:01 -0400
If you want random encounter type stuff, track down a copy of Sprawl
Sites. It had that kind of stuff. As you've seen from this thread, most
people hated it, so you should be able to find it used pretty easily.
Message no. 25
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:34:36 -0700
Wordman wrote:
>
> If you want random encounter type stuff, track down a copy of
> Sprawl Sites. It had that kind of stuff. As you've seen from
> this thread, most people hated it, so you should be able to
> find it used pretty easily.
>

I loved that book. I even have two copies. [:

Zebulin

>From The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord

15. I will never employ any device with a digital countdown. If I find that
such a device is absolutely unavoidable, I will set it to activate when the
counter reaches 117 and the hero is just putting his plan into operation.
Message no. 26
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:54:50 +0100
On Apr 22, 2005, at 14:26, Wordman wrote:

> If you want random encounter type stuff, track down a copy of Sprawl
> Sites. It had that kind of stuff. As you've seen from this thread,
> most people hated it, so you should be able to find it used pretty
> easily.

There's also a "random shadowrun generator" in Mr. Johnson's Little
Black Book.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 27
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
Guys. I never said you HAD to incorporate my ideas
into the new SR. They were merely IDEAS. If you guys
don't like them, you don't have to use them.

And for the person who came up with that nasty
bathroom analogy ... okaaaayyy .... ANYWAY ... I never
said "we should do an adventer on someone making a
trip to the toilet, etc." I never even said we should
make an adventure about someone getting sick. All I
was saying was that I thought it might be a neat thing
to add in there every once in a while ... maybe once
or twice PER ADVENTURE.

But if you guys don't want to use random encounter
tables, that's cool. They were just ideas, man.

And I agree, the GM should be able to ad-lib and come
up stuff off the cuff. I am not suggesting that be
replaced or the random encounter tables be used in
lieu of imagination and I appologize if that was what
came across. I was merely sharing an idea. Again, if
you don't like it (and it's obvious you guys don't),
then you don't have to use them!

-Scott
Message no. 28
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:00:07 +0100
In article <13b2100e3eebda43c913b221d67b1175@*****.fr>, Max Noel
<maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> writes
> There's also a "random shadowrun generator" in Mr. Johnson's
>Little Black Book.

Hey, find some old Traveller material like "76 Patrons". There are some
good ideas in there, many of which work well for Shadowrun.

But I never, ever, liked "random encounter tables". I mean, we're out in
the wilds far from home: okay, we keep the fire burning all night and we
post a sentry. And if menacing shapes and nasty glowing eyes get too
close, the sentry makes sure that the warning shots wake everyone and
make enough noise to scare most critters away.


But with "random tables" then you tend to end up with "roll to see which
monster leaps out of the night to slaughter you. No, it does, it's
really hungry. And it's not scared of noise. Or fire. Or people. Or
thrown rocks. Or bullets. Like the one last night. And the night before.
Tomorrow's monster will be equally unafraid, too."

I mean, I've spent a reasonable number of nights sleeping out in
Temperate Woodland, and the only Wandering Monsters I ran into were
OPFOR and the occasional lost sheep.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 29
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
--- Scott Hiller <scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
> Guys. I never said you HAD to incorporate my ideas
> into the new SR. They were merely IDEAS. If you guys
> don't like them, you don't have to use them.

As I understand it, you want to see some canon
material on the stuff that usually gets glossed over
in the heat of a roleplaying session. Something to get
the players back into the rulebooks and on the tracks.
I guess the best way to do that would be creating some
house rules for this by categorising a variety of
situations and the possible occurrences in said
situations. In addition, it's entirely doable to write
some house rules for "Illness" and suchlike, I just
doubt we'll ever see such relatively mundane matters
treated in any canon, as this type of detail is
definitely not what everyone wants to see in a game
that's supposed to let them escape everyday life for a
bit. I get ill in real life, I get bemused if I then
think "oh I failed my body roll," or something like
it. On the flip side, if I fail said body roll in-game
and have to sit around doing nothing all session
because my character has the flu, well, that sucks :).

Maybe a good rule of thumb is that anything unexciting
that makes RL more difficult will be unexciting as a
game mechanism. That being said, odd little challenges
can be found in those less-common trifles of the
everyday.

cheers,

Jan Jaap

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Message no. 30
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 08:50:43 -0400
At 12:26 PM 4/22/2005 +0200, you wrote:

>Why play shadowrunners at all, why not play normal people that have a normal
>life, with a normal job, an normal spuse and some normal childern. Now that
>would be interesting... NOT!

Until they meet a bunch of Shadowrunners performing as forced extraction on
them or trying to sabotage your company.


--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 31
From: pentaj2@********.edu (John C. Penta)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:14:04 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
Date: Saturday, April 23, 2005 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
> I mean, I've spent a reasonable number of nights sleeping out in
> Temperate Woodland, and the only Wandering Monsters I ran into
> were
> OPFOR and the occasional lost sheep.

That was, however, British Temperate Woodland, was it not?

In North America, there are actual wild creatures that could hurt you, like wolves, moose,
elk, etc, etc.
Message no. 32
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:42:53 +0100
In article <1f9ae259d5.259d51f9ae@********.scranton.edu>, John C. Penta
<pentaj2@********.edu> writes
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
>Date: Saturday, April 23, 2005 5:00 pm
>Subject: Re: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
>> I mean, I've spent a reasonable number of nights sleeping out in
>> Temperate Woodland, and the only Wandering Monsters I ran into
>> were
>> OPFOR and the occasional lost sheep.
>
>That was, however, British Temperate Woodland, was it not?
>
>In North America, there are actual wild creatures that could hurt you,
>like wolves, moose, elk, etc, etc.

How many of them will charge a L7A1 General Purpose Machine Gun giving
them a faceful of noise and muzzle flash, even if it's only loading
blank?

(Meanwhile, the other sentry is fixing bayonet if the wildlife really is
that determined, and the whole platoon is waking up and grabbing
weapons...)

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 33
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:05:54 -0600
On 23-Apr-05, at 1:57 PM, Scott Hiller wrote:

> Guys. I never said you HAD to incorporate my ideas
> into the new SR. They were merely IDEAS. If you guys
> don't like them, you don't have to use them.

The title of this mailing list is "Shadowrun Discussion." On this
mailing list, people discuss Shadowrun. If you post ideas about
Shadowrun, expect them to be discussed, even if people do not
necessarily agree with them.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 34
From: efreeman@*****.net (efreeman)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:01:38 -0700
On Sun, Apr 24, 2005 at 10:14am "John C. Penta" <pentaj2@********.edu>
wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
> Date: Saturday, April 23, 2005 5:00 pm
> Subject: Re: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
> > I mean, I've spent a reasonable number of nights sleeping out in
> > Temperate Woodland, and the only Wandering Monsters I ran into
> > were
> > OPFOR and the occasional lost sheep.
>
> That was, however, British Temperate Woodland, was it not?
>
> In North America, there are actual wild creatures that could hurt you,
like wolves, moose, elk, etc, etc.
>
>
All of which by and large have the good sense to avoid humans ... with a
few notable exceptions. Grizzly bears and elk in heat are two big
exceptions.

The second could lead to a lot of humorous encounters. "It's doing WHAT
to our car?"
=í
Message no. 35
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:34:15 -0400 (EDT)
On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Paul J. Adam wrote:

> How many of them will charge a L7A1 General Purpose Machine Gun giving
> them a faceful of noise and muzzle flash, even if it's only loading
> blank?
>
> (Meanwhile, the other sentry is fixing bayonet if the wildlife really is
> that determined, and the whole platoon is waking up and grabbing
> weapons...)

I would recommend against challenging an angry moose with somthing that
isn't actually spitting lead :)

Things that will charge freight trains aren't going to be too concerned
about muzzle flash, and will likely just take it as a personal challenge
:)

I opped a lot in northern woods and the only problem areas are in places
where the animals interact with people a lot, and know that they have
easily accessible food (Parks, miliary bases), everywhere else they'll
generally ignore you unless conditions have left them extremely hungry.
Message no. 36
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Original Sent: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 17:05:54 From: Adam
Jury <adamj@*********.com>

On 23-Apr-05, at 1:57 PM, Scott Hiller wrote:

>> Guys. I never said you HAD to incorporate my ideas
>> into the new SR. They were merely IDEAS. If you
guys
>> don't like them, you don't have to use them.

>The title of this mailing list is "Shadowrun
>Discussion." On this
>mailing list, people discuss Shadowrun. If you post
>ideas about
>Shadowrun, expect them to be discussed, even if
>people do not
>necessarily agree with them.
>
>Adam

Look, Adam, if you had read my previous posts like you
said you have, then you would have noticed they were
mere suggestions. I never expected people to AGREE
with what I was suggesting, but I DO expect a certain
level of maturity from others, that was not present in
many of their responses. I often wondered the age of
those folks...are they over the age of 10? Or are they
just bored kids who have nothing better t odo that
tear others' ideas apart if they don't like their
ideas?

It's fine if people don't agree with another's ideas.
That DOES NOT mean, however, that it's fair to mock
the person for their ideas.

I hope you have the ability to comprehend this, Adam.
You should, as you seem to be fairly intelligent.

-Scott
Message no. 37
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:46:59 -0600
On 25-Apr-05, at 11:05 AM, Scott Hiller wrote:

> It's fine if people don't agree with another's ideas.
> That DOES NOT mean, however, that it's fair to mock
> the person for their ideas.

Scott, nobody mocked you in this thread. They may have had a few laughs
at your desire for Shadowrun to pay close attention to details that
most people find insignificant or easily handled through roleplaying,
but at no point in this thread were you personally mocked -- and
certainly no more than anyone else is gently mocked on this list.

This is, btw, an Administrative post -- I have re-read the entire
thread and see no misconduct, and certainly none that warrants
wondering if long-standing list members are "over the age of 10" --
stones in glass houses aren't pretty.

Adam
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader
Message no. 38
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:56:12 -0400
From: Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com>

>This is, btw, an Administrative post -- I have re-read the entire
>thread and see no misconduct, and certainly none that warrants
>wondering if long-standing list members are "over the age of 10" --
>stones in glass houses aren't pretty.

Those who live in glass houses should use their neighbor's bathroom.
Message no. 39
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:06:54 -0700 (PDT)
> >stones in glass houses aren't pretty.

> Those who live in glass houses should use their neighbor's
> bathroom.

"Those who live in glass houses should not throw...

...orgies." :p

======Korishinzo
--Investing in nerf rocks for the new house


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Message no. 40
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A.)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:10:11 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
> Scott Hiller
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:06 PM
>
> That DOES NOT mean, however, that it's fair to mock the
> person for their ideas.

I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.

Marc
Message no. 41
From: scott@**********.com (Scott Harrison)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:38:33 +0200
On Apr 25, 2005, at 20:10, Renouf, Marc A. wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
>> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
>> Scott Hiller
>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:06 PM
>>
>> That DOES NOT mean, however, that it's fair to mock the
>> person for their ideas.
>
> I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.
>
Oooo. Will this be a mock battle? :-)

--
·𐑕𐑒𐑪𐑑
·𐑣𐑺𐑦𐑕𐑩𐑯 Scott
Harrison PGP Key ID: 0x0f0b5b86
Message no. 42
From: kelvaris@***********.us (Jeff Haskell)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:18:59 -0800
Scott Harrison wrote:

>
> On Apr 25, 2005, at 20:10, Renouf, Marc A. wrote:
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
>>> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Scott Hiller
>>> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 1:06 PM
>>>
>>> That DOES NOT mean, however, that it's fair to mock the
>>> person for their ideas.
>>
>>
>> I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.
>>
> Oooo. Will this be a mock battle? :-)


Shadow Responded

I could film a mockumentry of it :)
Message no. 43
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:22:48 +0100
>>> I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.
>>>
>> Oooo. Will this be a mock battle? :-)
>
>
> Shadow Responded
>
> I could film a mockumentry of it :)

We should stop this tangent before it runs amock. :D

-- Wild_Cat
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Message no. 44
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A.)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:29:17 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Max Noel
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 3:23 PM
>
> >>> I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.
> >>>
> >> Oooo. Will this be a mock battle? :-)
> >
> > I could film a mockumentry of it :)
>
> We should stop this tangent before it runs amock. :D

Boy, you guys have a lot of mocksie, talkin' to me like that.
;P

Marc
Message no. 45
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
> > >>> I wasn't mocking you. But I can start if you'd like.
> > >>>
> > >> Oooo. Will this be a mock battle? :-)
> > >
> > > I could film a mockumentry of it :)
> >
> > We should stop this tangent before it runs amock. :D
>
> Boy, you guys have a lot of mocksie, talkin' to me like that.
> ;P

Overheard:

"Dude, I could mock this thread in four words."
"That's nothing man, I could mock this thread in three words."
"Dude... mock this thread!"
"Mind. The. Undertow."

======Korishinzo
--with apologies to PvP for plagiarism



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Message no. 46
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Nuts and Bolts FIRST
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:32:56 +0100
At 07:06 PM 4/25/2005, Korishinzo wrote:
> > >stones in glass houses aren't pretty.
> > Those who live in glass houses should use their neighbor's
> > bathroom.
>"Those who live in glass houses should not throw...
>
>...orgies." :p

Unless they're exhibitionists - which let's face it, going to an orgy in a
glass house they probably are.
So many different types of people, so many wierd ways to get your jollies :-)


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

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