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Message no. 1
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:39:44 -0700
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>


>First, a confession - I didn't read or follow the thread on
>credsticks closely.

<long but excellently thought out essay on credsticks et al snipped>

I'd like to first say, "Superb!" That is without a doubt the best, most
logical, and complete work I've seen on credsticks. Personally, I'd recommend
firing it to FASA in hopes they include it in SR3.

A couple of questions though:

Re: Corp Scrip
Are there any "paper" equivalents of this stuff floating around? My
perception of the SR world is that there is. It'd be like store coupons or
"Canadian Tire Money" (understandable more to those of us in Canada, of
course.. basically, you buy x amount of product, they give you x/100 amount of
"Canadian Tire Money" back. It looks a lot like monopoly money and is only
good for buying products at Canadian Tire.)

Re: Hacking the Stick
What kind of target numbers would you recommend be assigned for hacking a
(valid) stick? For the purpose of invalidating a bribe etc? Although.. now
that I think about it, reporting it stolen would be the easier way to go. I
generally think that instead of just refunding the transaction, they pull the
funds back and hold them in escrow (earning interest on them) until one party
or another proves where they should be.

Karl
Message no. 2
From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.AC.NZ>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:23:07 +1200
Quoth Fade (0804 20-3-98):

(SLICE mega-long discussion of the nuyen/credstick system)

Well, Fade, you've obviously done a lot more thinking about this than I
have. (Me, I just run my credcard through the slot and leave the
details to the bank.) But, something has always bugged me:
I still have trouble believing that cash and coinage have been entirely
removed from the system. It's just too convenient for all the throwaway
things - parking meters, candy machines, tossing a silver dollar to a
beggar (who's gonna stop and run a credstick-to-credstick transaction
with a guy who hasn't bathed since the Awakening?). It's far less
traceable than stick nuyen (as you've pointed out). And let's face it,
what's better dramatically: opening a suitcase to see a bundle of fifty
innocuous plastic cylinders, or looking at fifty thick bundles of $20
bills (even if they are Mylar)?
Besides, if you keep cash in the system - especially in the poorer parts
of town where people can't afford credsticks - it lends itself to so
much more movie-style drama. (Case in point: our game uses governmental
scrip in addition to credcards (I like cards, they're a little easier to
visualise). My PC (an unaugmented cop, in civvies but still armed)
walks into a store to buy a pack of cookies, gets out his wallet, hands
a $10 bill to the cashier - and four stocking-clad punks burst through
the door, waving machine-pistols and demanding that the clerk empty the
register. The place has no security system to speak off, the punks all
look hyped on something, and the store-owner's twelve-year-old daughter
is being held at gunpoint. What do I do? Thinks the PC.)

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging your reasoning or your
concept of the-way-things-are. It makes sense, and it'll cause a review
of the campaign's financial system - but cash is just too darn handy to
eliminate completely.


Danyel Woods

9604801@********.ac.nz

Hi, I'm Chucky. Wanna play?
Message no. 3
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:41:10 -0500
On Fri, Mar 20, 1998 at 09:23:07AM +1200, Danyel N Woods wrote:
> Quoth Fade (0804 20-3-98):
>
> (SLICE mega-long discussion of the nuyen/credstick system)
>
<SECOND SLICE>
>
> Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not challenging your reasoning or your
> concept of the-way-things-are. It makes sense, and it'll cause a review
> of the campaign's financial system - but cash is just too darn handy to
> eliminate completely.
>
>
I agree. I've purposely missed a huge section of this thread, but
in my games, cash (of some form) does exist. As corp script if nothing
else. I think several novels have backed this type of thing up. (The
Wolf and Raven stories with Mike and Tiger come to mind).
I have a Visa/Cash card today. And yeah its great. But its annoying
having twenty slips of paper in your wallet, ranging from 1.50 to $45.
Much easier to take out the cash. Of course if I use the check card, I know exactly where
I've wasted my money. :)
I think between Corp Shadowfiles and NAGtoRL, both cover cred sticks
authenticating them etc, to some degree. (Also check out
digger's article at the archive quite good).
This is all IMHO of course. :) Ignore at your leisure.
I know return you to the list. As I'm off to class.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 4
From: Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:31:57 -0500
Regarding Danyel Woods' comments on Fade's credstick treatment:

<snip: cash is more convienient> I disagree. Try using a Mobil
Speedpass. You touch your credstick to anywhere in a 4"x4" area on
the gas pump, a light comes on, and you start pumping. MUCH more
convienient than cash. In Shadowrun, just say that you can authorize
your credstick to pay for small purchases from your favorite stores
without entering a PIN, up to some small daily limit. Suddenly everyday
life is much easier, just wave your stick at the cash register and go.

Beggars: In the book "City Come a Walking" (one of the early Cyberpunk
novels) the author has a good take on this. First of all, credsticks don't
cost anywhere near 50 nuyen, more like 2 (plus the money you put in
them, of course). Second, most terminals have a transfer mode. You
walk up to a phone booth, swipe your card/stick/whatever, type (or
speak) "Pay 4 nuyen" and the next person to swipe their card gets 4
nuyen added to their account. You don't even have to touch the
squater to give him a handout, and his lice stay his own.

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 5
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:11:46 +0000
> I'd like to first say, "Superb!" That is without a doubt the best, most
> logical, and complete work I've seen on credsticks. Personally, I'd recommend
> firing it to FASA in hopes they include it in SR3.
In the cause of modesty I should probably snip that, but, nahh... :)

> A couple of questions though:
>
> Re: Corp Scrip
> Are there any "paper" equivalents of this stuff floating around? My
> perception of the SR world is that there is. It'd be like store coupons or
> "Canadian Tire Money" (understandable more to those of us in Canada, of
> course.. basically, you buy x amount of product, they give you x/100 amount of
> "Canadian Tire Money" back. It looks a lot like monopoly money and is only
> good for buying products at Canadian Tire.)

I think there would be paper equivalents of scrip, or plastic chips,
or whatever... or not, depending on the corporation. Almost anyone,
once they're big enough, can issue these things, and probably would
do so in whatever form they would wish - physical only, electronic
only, or both. If they were electronic, they would be compatible with
credsticks, though. I'd say only the big8 is big enough to issue
scrip of stability/buying power enough that it would be of interest
on the black market, or in general.

Scrip, from the corporate view, has two purposes.
1: Bind its workers to buy in corporate stores.
(Thus increasing profits.).
2: Increase their independence from governments.
(Thus increasing profits.).

> Re: Hacking the Stick
> What kind of target numbers would you recommend be assigned for hacking a
> (valid) stick? For the purpose of invalidating a bribe etc? Although.. now
> that I think about it, reporting it stolen would be the easier way to go.

Reporting it stolen would be a lot easier, yes, but you couldn't use
it for much else then. Hacking it.. just for invalidating a bribe
wouldn't be too hard compared to hacking it for accessing someone
else's cash. I'd put the former in reach of a PC, the latter not.
Exact TN's? Not important. With the number of different sticks
around, with different cores etc. it'd vary widely.

> I
> generally think that instead of just refunding the transaction, they pull the
> funds back and hold them in escrow (earning interest on them) until one party
> or another proves where they should be.

That seems reasonable, but most credit card companies today is more
protective of their customers than others' customers. Either might
happen, though - keep in mind that details like that often depends on
the financial company using the credsticks in question.

Note that it won't work in any shops or similar, which usually use
connected verifiers - those transactions are instantly done and over.
So it would only be of interest for bribes or shadow deals. For most
bribes it won't be of interest (Being less than 5000 it's not worth
the hassle, or, if greater, you usually just give'em the credstick,
in which case you - fortunately - have trouble proving ownership)
while for most shadow deals you're dealing with people that can put a
serious dent in your rep, or burn you back, if you pull such a stunt
on'em.

It's possible, though.


--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 6
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 00:11:46 +0000
Danyel Woods wrote:
> I still have trouble believing that cash and coinage have been entirely
> removed from the system. It's just too convenient for all the throwaway
> things - parking meters, candy machines, tossing a silver dollar to a
> beggar (who's gonna stop and run a credstick-to-credstick transaction
> with a guy who hasn't bathed since the Awakening?). It's far less
> traceable than stick nuyen (as you've pointed out). And let's face it,
> what's better dramatically: opening a suitcase to see a bundle of fifty
> innocuous plastic cylinders, or looking at fifty thick bundles of $20
> bills (even if they are Mylar)?
> Besides, if you keep cash in the system - especially in the poorer parts
> of town where people can't afford credsticks - it lends itself to so
> much more movie-style drama.

The uncertified credstick - the one with the SIN - would be cheap, or
even provided free of charge. (At least the basic model.).

>*snip government scrip*
I'll leave to someone else to comment that.

> *snip credcards are easier to envision*
I think so too. And, you can fit a picture of the owner on it.
(Which is why I added the bit on physical shape of cred'sticks'.).

> cash is just too darn handy to eliminate completely.

Take a look at the examples, and try to find out if any
of them is desirable from the POV of financial institutions - or most
regular people - except for the parking meter bit, which is a good
point, but would probably be a lot easier with certified sticks.
Making begging harder, reducing armed robberies and so on is all
highly desirable. Financial institutions would push for electronic
coinage if they thought it was safe enough.

I agree that opening a suitcase and seeing it brimfull of $50 bills
would definitely feel better than a few cylinders, though. (Or
even just one, even if it was black as sin. For a kinky girl,
perhaps... nah.;).

If you want cash in the game, use it. It's more than likely
still there in one form or another. Perhaps dollars is kept as black
market money, perhaps as scrip, perhaps they use the british pound
instead, whatever. (Official coin in UCAS, of which Seattle is part,
is dollars, AFAIK, so it would be plausible as a 'parallell' coinage
to nuyen in Seattle. And dollar bills will always exist, more than
likely. Perhaps a suitcase full of bearer bonds (Suggested in
Corporate Shadowfiles). There's many options to the electronic nuyen.
Be inventive.

*The Devil's Attorney has entered the court, My Lord.*

If you don't want cash in your game, don't use it. Cold hard cash is
about as practical an exchange method as bartering. It requries armed
transports, safes, bank vaults etcetera, all to protect something
which, in and of itself, is worthless. If shops and banks had an
option to this, they'd leap at it, both feet. More than likely, hard
coinage is as common as gift cards are today, and for the same
reason. Their use has no real point, and is just a lot of bother.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 7
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Nuyen, (un)certified credsticks, ID checks, scrip,
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:47:24 EST
In a message dated 98-03-19 16:42:00 EST, you write:

> I agree. I've purposely missed a huge section of this thread, but
> in my games, cash (of some form) does exist. As corp script if nothing
> else. I think several novels have backed this type of thing up. (The
> Wolf and Raven stories with Mike and Tiger come to mind).
> I have a Visa/Cash card today. And yeah its great. But its annoying
> having twenty slips of paper in your wallet, ranging from 1.50 to $45.
> Much easier to take out the cash. Of course if I use the check card, I know
> exactly where I've wasted my money. :)
> I think between Corp Shadowfiles and NAGtoRL, both cover cred sticks
> authenticating them etc, to some degree. (Also check out
> digger's article at the archive quite good).
> This is all IMHO of course. :) Ignore at your leisure.
> I know return you to the list. As I'm off to class.
>

Perhaps there is something else that I could throw in also.

There is one thing that I have not seen many people do except on a large scale
basis (like a run to falsify the purchasing records for a shipment of
something from someone else).

All credstik verifications use a program in a reader to perform a verification
of the information contained on the cred-stik. A ingenious decker (and
somewhat unscrupulous) could make a smart frame that bluffs the verification
program of the data reader.

I personally would not trust it going up against something that has a
Verification program rating higher than a 4 or 5 (this is comparable to the
Credstik verifications that some people go through when they have large
transactions). I would see it being used to help supplement their lifestyle,
in a way, faking some of the cred necessary for their monthly upkeep.

And what do you do when it fails, apologize to the person behind the counter
for handing them the wrong stik and then handing them the right stik that has
real cred on it.

And to keep the size of the smart-frame down, it could be made one-shot, in
that a copy is kept elsewhere and needs to be reloaded after each use.

This is just something I wanted to toss into the fray.

Mike

### The Vorlon GM ###

Further Reading

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