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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject:	Observation Resolution (was "Here's an idea that will speed up
Date:	Tue Feb 12 11:10:01 2002

Message no. 1 At 2/12/02 04:17 AM, you wrote:
>But if you do that, you get characters who'll observe first but only be told
>what's there _after_ taking their other action...? I suppose this is fine if
>you have a character who fires an APDS round followed by an explosive round
>from his gun, but you resolve the explosive first anyway :)
>
>My house isn't intended to allow characters to be shot at in the Combat
>Phase in which they themselves have an action (as I think you read it) but
>rather to force them to wait, and thereby give the opposition a chance to
>act _after_ a character storms into a new situation -- and immediately
>removes any possible threat in the same Combat Phase.
>
>(I know the opposition could delay their actions and be ready, but it's just
>not believable that, whatever the situation, the PCs opponents have ready
>actions. IMHO, it _is_ realistic to assume a character needs a few seconds to
>take in the situation, and be open to counterattacks while doing that.)

Well, to take the original situation and place it within the confines of an
example:

Player 1 rounds the corner and sees 5 guys in various forms of clothing and
armor mixed and matched and put together rather haphazardly. Each of them
carries a heavy pistol or SMG and given that they're that sort of people
combat begins and we go to initiative. Now the player doesn't want to just
open fire on some random people so he tries to see if he can observe any
gang colors on them, assuming he does he's going to open fire.

Possibility 1:
The player observes and makes his roll, the GM tells him that yeah he's
facing down the Foos and he uses his other simple action to shoot them.

Possibility 2:
The player declares his two actions for the turn. The GM then has him roll
observe and tells him what he notices after he's already decided what to
do. He could either shoot first while observing, shoot twice, or observe
and delay action (well, I mean, I guess he could also use a complex action
to call his wife and remind her to go to the bank and pick up the dry
cleaning, but this is a bit more unlikely).

The player decides to look as well as shoot just in case. He peeks out from
some light cover and screaming (his free action) "PLATYPI ARE OUR
FRIENDS!!!" (strange one that... too much headware) he lets loose with a
burst from his *overpowered SMG* as he checks out his targets in greater
detail. As he fills them with his hot, manly lead he finds that - oh no! -
he's just shot up the Little Old Ladies! The gang composed entirely of nice
old woman and devoted to giving out cookies and milk around the 'plex.
Their cats kill him in the next round and it isn't pretty.

As such the player doesn't receive any particular advantage in observing
before shooting without making observe in detail a complex action. Of
course... they do have the consequences of shooting first still.

Belgand

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From:	shadowrn@*******.com (shadowrn@*******.com)
Subject:	Observation Resolution (was "Here's an idea that will speed up
Date:	Tue Feb 12 12:30:00 2002

Message no. 2 On Tue, 12 Feb 2002, Mark M. Smith wrote:

> detail. As he fills them with his hot, manly lead he finds that - oh no! -
> he's just shot up the Little Old Ladies! The gang composed entirely of nice
> old woman and devoted to giving out cookies and milk around the 'plex.
> Their cats kill him in the next round and it isn't pretty.
>

great, now I've snorted tea all over my keyboard. thank *you* for
introducing surreal humour to this discussion :-)

besides which, we all know that Little Old Ladies are the hardest gang in
the 'plex. you do *not* want to get between them & the food cart...

--
john@*****.net http://www.kript.net/shadowrun
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
SRGC SR1+ SR3++ !SR2 h b++ B--- UB IE+ RN+ !W ma+++ gm M-- P-

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Thanatos)
Subject:	Observation Resolution (was "Here's an idea that will speed up
Date:	Tue Feb 12 12:55:01 2002

Message no. 3 > the person WAY too much to do in 2 seconds (which unless I'm way off is
> what the initiative pass is supposed to be)

Combat turns are three seconds long. I'm not sure checking out team
colors is going to qualify as perceiving in detail, though, as that's
something that can be picked up in a quick glance. To me, a detailed
perception check, i.e. a simple action and a roll of dice, would let our
paintball player determine that three out of the five are hostile targets
and the one on the far left is holding an Angel. Based on my previous
experiences paintballing I can tell you that I can't come up from cover
and scan across five targets and engage them all in three seconds. Two,
maybe three if they're close is the most I can do.

In any case, I don't think you're going to have much success trying to
extrapolate real world experience like this into game terms. There's just
too much information that's immediately available to you in situ as
opposed to having the gamemaster describe the scene as your character
would see it. Just a one second glance at someone gives you rough height,
body position, relative motion, whether their hands are empty or full,
what's behind them, who is around them, maybe sex and race if those traits
are obvious. And that's just what's going on with the person.

Taking the example from the previous email of a character rounding a
corner and coming up on five figures, let me explain the kind of detail
that I'm talking about.

It's seven o'clock on a sunday night in Seattle. Jack, stereotypical
wired street sam, is walking along a side street in his home neighborhood
of Renton, hands held loosely at his side. A light rain mists from the
clouds overhead, turning the pavement slick and haloing the street
lights. Jack makes a mental note to watch his footing. While the
analytical part of his mind is running over the notes from the meet he
just left, the survival part of his brain notes a wink of light up ahead
from a car's headlights and steers him into the shadows of an alleyway
until the vehicle passes. Stepping out onto the street again, he begins
to hear low voices coming from around the corner. In the rain, it's hard
to tell whether they're male or female or how many people are
speaking. Jack debates briefly about taking the long way around to his
doss, but it's raining and, being the cocky street sam he is, he figures
he can take whoever it is. Jack knows, though, that The Monobloc, a local
gang, has been making trouble around lately. With that in mind, he rounds
the corner, close to the wall, his left hand is coming up as if he were
checking his watch while his right hovers by the Predator holstered just
behind his right hip. As his gaze sweeps the five figures, indistinct in
the mist, he notes that all the talking has stopped, and that two of the
five are sporting the bright white domino masques of the gang. [Initial
perception. Initiative roll. Jack wins with a 25, gangers range from 8
to 4. Jack delays.] The gangers shift uncomfortably, glancing back and
forth among themselves. [First pass complete. Jack decides to move
slowly past the gangers, taking their hesitation as a good sign.] Jack
moves cautiously past, keeping his body bladed to the five punks. Both
sides ease back from the impromptu confrontation and carry on with their
business. Just another night in the sprawl.

You shouldn't penalize your players by throwing them into a situation
where they have the option of committing a disastrous error in judgment
without at least giving them the benefit of operating on all the possible
information the character will have.

There's one other point that I want to comment on. Now I'm not
disagreeing that cyberware and social interactions are a bad mix, anyone
working at less than half their humanity isn't going to be the life of the
party. At the same time, though, I don't think that wired reflexes alone
are enough to turn a person into a psychopathic killing machine. That
requires a little bit more. Most sams are going to react defensively,
taking themselves out of the situation, rather than offensively. In the
one example mentioned in a previous email, it would make more sense for
the character hearing the *click* behind him to go forward, over the bar
and under cover rather than wheel and go to melee. Unless he feels a
gunbarrel against his back, that's a good way to take two in the chest.

Again, because I like examples.

Jack, stereotypical wired street sam, and his partner Jill (we're equal
opportunity here), a bioware freak, have made a poor decision and accepted
an ExecSec job for Mr. Suit, a local corp manager who just scored big on a
contract and is throwing a party for his division. He wants to make sure
that nothing funny happens to him or his family. Fast forward to the
party and our friendly Mr. Suit mounts the stage to give his speech,
flanked by his loving wife and picture perfect daughter. In the
background, like the discreet shadows they shood be, are Jack and
Jill. As the crowd hushes in expectation, a waiter at the back table
unexpectedly pops a champagne cork. [For this example, both Jack and Jill
fail their checks, forcing them to react. Jack, with wired two, reacts in
a survival manner, spring loaded to defense. Jill, on the other hand, is
laoded down with bioware, including reflex recorders for her trusty
Glock.] Jack, his wired on full time, reacts almost before he knows it,
taking two long strides to hip check Mr. Suit while his right hand goes
for the light pistol secreted in his jacket. If that's all there was to
this situation, he would stop right there, as the crowd turned away from
the commotion in back to witness the commotion on the stage. Jack would
stoically help a surprised Mr. Suit to his feet and then fade into the
background to hide his embarassment. But in this case, Jill's actions
follow the pattern that's been burned into her nerves, a pattern
reinforced by countless hours spent at the firing range. As the crowd
turns in surprise, they're just in time to watch the waiter drop the
bottle of champagne and collapse beneath a pair of JHP from Jill's
Glock. The panicked wage slaves stampeed towards the doors as Jill lowers
her weapon in growing horror at what she's done.

Reflex triggers are for Faces, or those who do regular negotiations or are
forced to appear in social settings. Not for street sams. If you're
going to go through the pain and expense of taking out part of your
humanity in order to make yourself a better weapon, why would you want to
lessen the effect of that weapon? You need every edge you can on the
streets, because the deck is stacked against you and the Corps are holding
all the aces.

Last thing before I go. Please don't quote from the fiction when we're
talking about rules. At best, it's an artist's interpretation of what a
situation looks like, at worst it's a blatant contradiction of game
mechanics.

ACP

-------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Thanatos)
Subject:	Observation Resolution (was "Here's an idea that will speed up
Date:	Tue Feb 12 13:35:06 2002

Message no. 4 > Ok.....and that's my point....that's a whole combat turn....not one
> initiative pass....you've got a fraction of that....can you look,
> recognize and still be able to shoot accurately in one second or less?
> Personally I really doubt it...if you've only got an initiative of 15 or
> max of 30 then yeah you've got a second per pass BUT anything above that
> and you've got a fraction of a second in which you can accomplish a
> given action

I'm an unmodified human, I only get one, maybe two actions per combat
turn, which means that each of my simple actions covers 1.5 seconds. I
can look, recognize, and engage in three seconds. I know people who can
look, recognize, and engage in one second. There's a whole cadre of
people who can look, recognize, and engage twice in two seconds with an
accruacy of within one inch at twelve yards.

ACP

-------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret

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