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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:38:30 -0500
What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
clip?

For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

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Message no. 2
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 00:01:29 -0500
On Fri, 18 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
> clip?
>
> For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
> then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?
>
> D. Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
> o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
> left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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>
The game master allows it and forces them to role each dice pool
one at a time until they get the point. Or he denies them beer/pizza.
Either work.

:^)

*****************Michael Orion Jackson******************
***********TAMS Class of 96/UT Class of 2000************
*********************Random Quote:**********************
*Christy-monster (genus girlfriendus) is prone to fits.*
********************************************************
Message no. 3
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:17:33 +0000
> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:38:30 -0500

> From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
> Subject: Odd Ammo Question


> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
> clip?
>
> For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
> then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?
>
My call would be to just count the APDS round and ignore the gel rounds except
for recoil effects.

I am assuming that all three rounds hit, and that the stun effects of the gel
would be overwelmed by the APDS's effects.



David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:36:43 +0200
According to D. Ghost, at 23:38 on 18 Sep 98, the word on the street
was...

> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
> clip?
>
> For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
> then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?

The best solution is to only alternate every 3 rounds if you plan to fire
bursts, so you have one bust of each :)

If you do intend to alternate the way you suggest, I think the best way to
handle it would be to calculate the bonuses based on the ratio. In your
case, a burst of 1 gel and 2 APDS rounds would do something like -1 Power
and x2/3rd armor (factoring in the Stun damage from gel rounds is kinda
hard, though).

An alternative is to roll for each bullet in the burst separately, but the
trouble with that is that you'll end up doing more damage to the target
than the burst as a whole would do, per SR2/3 rules.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 5
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:08:33 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:38 PM 9/18/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
>clip?
>
>For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
>then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What
Happens?

If I were GMing, I would have the gun jam due to the inconsistancy of
the rounds in the clip. (Unless of course the ammo being alternated
was tracer rounds, which are intended to be alternated with other
rounds)

It would be a rather ugly jam at that, too.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 6
From: Eric Josue <ericj@****************.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 10:28:13 -0600
At 11:08 9/19/98 -0400, Paul Gettle wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>At 11:38 PM 9/18/98 -0500, D.Ghost wrote:
>>What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
>>clip?
>>
>>For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
>>then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What
>Happens?
>
>If I were GMing, I would have the gun jam due to the inconsistancy of
>the rounds in the clip. (Unless of course the ammo being alternated
>was tracer rounds, which are intended to be alternated with other
>rounds)
>
>It would be a rather ugly jam at that, too.
>

I agree with Paul. In our campaign we ruled that you can't mix and match
ammo types in clips or magazines (unless using tracer rounds)...mix &
matching rounds in revolver-type (cy) weapons were allowed, though. Imagine
a Ruger Super Warhawk with alternating APDS and gel rounds ;-)

EJ

-----------------------------------------
Eric Josue
producer/principal.director

F U S I O N M E D I A G R O U P I N C.
-a new vision in design-
http://www.fusionmediagroup.com

Otaku e-Zine v2 on now...
http://www.otakuezine.com
Message no. 7
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:44:02 -0700
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

> > What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
> > clip?
> >
> > For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
> > then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?
>
> The best solution is to only alternate every 3 rounds if you plan to fire
> bursts, so you have one bust of each :)

Agreed.

> If you do intend to alternate the way you suggest, I think the best way
to
> handle it would be to calculate the bonuses based on the ratio. In your
> case, a burst of 1 gel and 2 APDS rounds would do something like -1 Power
> and x2/3rd armor (factoring in the Stun damage from gel rounds is kinda
> hard, though).
>
> An alternative is to roll for each bullet in the burst separately, but
the
> trouble with that is that you'll end up doing more damage to the target
> than the burst as a whole would do, per SR2/3 rules.

Which is what it sounds like the player was going for, so we definitely
can't have that. ;)
The armor is weird on that particular burst as well, because the gel rounds
go against impact armor if it is higher I believe. At any rate I would
still apply the -2 to the power for the gel rounds since they make up most
of the burst. For armor I would halve the ballistic and then average the
new value of the ballistic and the impact armor of the target. Subtract
that from the attack and figure out damage. I would then divide the damage
like so. Lets say that this pain in the ass sammy hits the target for a
moderate amount of damage. I would give the target 2 boxes of stun (since
gel rounds made up most of the burst) and 1 box of physical damage.

It's messy, but it should give them the point that if they insist on
alternating in the burst like that *especially* APDS and Gel rounds then be
prepared for a little book work.


Caric
Message no. 8
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:30:20 -0500
Everything snipped. I just wanted to make a point. I asked about this,
not because a player wants to do this. Not because I want to this.
Instead, I asked because I was curious and saw no easy solution to it.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 9
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:54:40 -0500
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:17:33 +0000 David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
writes:
>> From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>

>> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
>> clip?
>>
>> For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
>> then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What
Happens?

>My call would be to just count the APDS round and ignore the gel rounds
except
>for recoil effects.
>
>I am assuming that all three rounds hit, and that the stun effects of
the gel
>would be overwelmed by the APDS's effects.

Okay, but what about the Gel rounds' knockback effects? Or what if the
combanation was 1 APDS and 2 flechette rounds?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Message no. 10
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:40:03 -0700
> From: D. Ghost <dghost@****.COM>

> Everything snipped. I just wanted to make a point. I asked about this,
> not because a player wants to do this. Not because I want to this.
> Instead, I asked because I was curious and saw no easy solution to it.

Glad to hear it, it's a nasty situation. And you're right there is no easy
solution.

Caric
Message no. 11
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:39:52 -0500
----------
> From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
>
> > Everything snipped. I just wanted to make a point. I asked about
this,
> > not because a player wants to do this. Not because I want to this.
> > Instead, I asked because I was curious and saw no easy solution to it.
>
> Glad to hear it, it's a nasty situation. And you're right there is no
easy
> solution.
>
> Caric

That being said, let me step in with an easy solution.

BABY, pg 116, 1st paragraph under heading "Ammunition", third sentence.
"Ammunition cannot be mixed in a clip."

Don't you hate it when I do that?

Nexx
Message no. 12
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 05:36:40 +1000
>Everything snipped. I just wanted to make a point. I asked about this,
>not because a player wants to do this. Not because I want to this.
>Instead, I asked because I was curious and saw no easy solution to it.

Easy solution? Hmmm. I don't know about that. The obvious thing to do
(at least to my way of thinking) is to make the standard attack and dodge
tests and then have the character resist the damage from each type of
ammunition as a separate attack. Total the number of same-type rounds and
use the short burst/ burst fire rules for each attack.
This would mean, for example, that for a six round burst of mixed
APDS-EX-EX-EX-gel-gel for a weapon with a Damage Code of 6M, the character
would resist a 6M shot with armour-piercing effects (one round of APDS), a
11S burst with explosive effects (three rounds EX explosive), and a 6M
short burst stun attack from the remaining two gel rounds.
Combat Pool successes would be effective in staging down (or allowing
dodging) of all attacks, you'd use the highest effective target number for
knockback/down tests, and armour degradation would be based on the most
effective part of the burst.
As I said, this the obvious thing - it's the first thing that sprang to
mind and it hasn't been properly thought out (gimme a break it's 5:34 am
here and I haven't slept in 48 hours). If you can pick holes in it please
do. Nothing makes me happier... \=)




- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 13
From: John E Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:59:10 -0500
Bob Tockley wrote:

<snipped>

> As I said, this the obvious thing - it's the first thing that sprang to
> mind and it hasn't been properly thought out (gimme a break it's 5:34 am
> here and I haven't slept in 48 hours). If you can pick holes in it please
> do. Nothing makes me happier... \=)

Your one burst could now do more damage than it would have otherwise:
it would now do 9 boxes of physical damage and 3 of stun, if nothing
is resisted, where a burst of the same length of *just* ex-explosive
would do (uh... plus one level per 3 rounds, plus one power per
round..., base 6+2=8...) 14D -- ten boxes of physical damage, no stun
damage. Your house rule makes a burst of different types of ammo
inherently more damaging than one of a homogeneous composition.

--
John Pederson otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes
convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the universe -- a
spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we
with our modest powers must feel humble."
--Albert Einstein
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" Number Two -- with a bullet!
Message no. 14
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:31:22 -0700
:>I am assuming that all three rounds hit, and that the stun effects of
:the gel
:>would be overwelmed by the APDS's effects.
:
:Okay, but what about the Gel rounds' knockback effects? Or what if the
:combanation was 1 APDS and 2 flechette rounds?


My "split resistance" idea would easily handle that also. There would
be only one knockdown test (based off the total damage level), and you
would split knockdown resistance dice proportionally among the damage
sources (bullets). APDS / Flechette combo's would still be a breeze; the
increase in damage level (which only applies if there is no armor) would
only apply to the flechettes, and thus would get reduced in total effect
some what. If one in 3 rounds was flechette, you would only get 1/3 of
the extra damage level.

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:08:54 -0700
> From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>

<snip method of resisting all rounds as separate attacks>

> As I said, this the obvious thing - it's the first thing that sprang to
> mind and it hasn't been properly thought out (gimme a break it's 5:34 am
> here and I haven't slept in 48 hours). If you can pick holes in it
please
> do. Nothing makes me happier... \=)


Main flaw is still that you are forcing the target to make several
resistance tests instead of just one.

Caric
Message no. 16
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:07:17 -0700
> From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>

> That being said, let me step in with an easy solution.
>
> BABY, pg 116, 1st paragraph under heading "Ammunition", third sentence.
> "Ammunition cannot be mixed in a clip."
>
> Don't you hate it when I do that?

:) Not particularly.

Caric
Message no. 17
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:18:10 EDT
<snip all the discusion>
this is also why FASA just said you cannot mix ammo in a clip :-)
easy way out I say.
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:28:29 +0200
According to Nexx, at 14:39 on 19 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> BABY, pg 116, 1st paragraph under heading "Ammunition", third sentence.
> "Ammunition cannot be mixed in a clip."
>
> Don't you hate it when I do that?

I know that's there, and frankly, it's the easy way out for FASA. It's
extremely easy to prove you can mix different ammo types in a clip: take a
real gun's magazine and a handful of rounds of different types (say, ball
and hollowpoint). Now insert them all into the magazine.

Hey, they all fit in!

What I'm trying to say is that FASA took the sensible option because SR's
burst-resolution system doesn't allow mixing of ammo types very easily (as
is proven by the trouble we're having trying to come up with a solution)
but as it is possible IRL it _should_ be possible in SR, if players really
want to do this.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:32:20 -0500
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Date: Sunday, September 20, 1998 5:27 AM

>What I'm trying to say is that FASA took the sensible option because SR's
>burst-resolution system doesn't allow mixing of ammo types very easily (as
>is proven by the trouble we're having trying to come up with a solution)
>but as it is possible IRL it _should_ be possible in SR, if players really
>want to do this.

This brings me a question that's been nagging at me, and it's really silly,
but I just dragged my ass out of bed I'm prone to those.

In the example D. Ghost started this with, he was trying to alternate 2 gel
rounds with an APDS round. What's the point of that? "I want to stun you
long enough to blow a hole in you." Makes no sense to me. Maybe it will
when I wake up....

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 20
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:26:44 -0500
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:32:20 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:
<SNIP>
>This brings me a question that's been nagging at me, and it's really
silly,
>but I just dragged my ass out of bed I'm prone to those.
>
>In the example D. Ghost started this with, he was trying to alternate 2
gel
>rounds with an APDS round. What's the point of that? "I want to stun
you
>long enough to blow a hole in you." Makes no sense to me. Maybe it
will
>when I wake up....

I picked APDS and Gel and latter APDS and Flechette because their
mechanics make them the hardest to combine so any game mechanics would
have to be able to take them into account.

Now if you improved effectiveness from combining ammo, how about APDS and
EX-Explosives.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` I traded my Flesh for a Fantasy and now my truck broke down, my wife
left me, and my dog died o/` -- Billy Idol, Jr. Rock Country Singer

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 21
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:16:29 -0400
For a slightly different ammo question - given the variety of
ammo in SR, and the variety of different types of targets for which
they're designed, it seems to me as though SOMEONE would have designed
a weapon with multiple clips, and a selector switch to choose between
them. Especially for a smartgun - change the ammo you're firing on the
fly, without removing a clip and putting in a new one. Might look a
little weird, but I don't think it'd be impossible to engineer.

--Sean
Message no. 22
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:07:43 -0700
: For a slightly different ammo question - given the variety of
:ammo in SR, and the variety of different types of targets for which
:they're designed, it seems to me as though SOMEONE would have designed
:a weapon with multiple clips, and a selector switch to choose between
:them. Especially for a smartgun - change the ammo you're firing on the
:fly, without removing a clip and putting in a new one. Might look a
:little weird, but I don't think it'd be impossible to engineer.
:


Difficult, and more prone to jam, but not impossible. Almost any
multiple clip or magazine design I can envision would require you to
choose what the next round will be when firing the current one, or to
manually "cock" the gun (which ejects the round in the chamber, if any,
just as firing would). Revolvers would be an exemption- a simple motor on
the cylinder could advance it to any round. And don't even mess with
belts.
More common would be combined arms, I think- rifles with under barrel
shotguns, for example. Those exist today. However, I can definitely see
the appeal for a multi-clip shotgun in SR (in RL, afaik, chokes are not
ajustable, and so shot and slug would not mix well).

Mongoose
Message no. 23
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:10:27 -0700
:I picked APDS and Gel and latter APDS and Flechette because their
:mechanics make them the hardest to combine so any game mechanics would
:have to be able to take them into account.
:
:Now if you improved effectiveness from combining ammo, how about APDS and
:EX-Explosives.


If you use the idea of splitting resistance dice, both of those
combo's are easy, and neither more effective than the single ammo type
alone.

Mongoose
Message no. 24
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 16:02:36 EDT
In a message dated 9/19/98 12:43:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.COM
writes:

> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
> clip?

Technically in SR3 the rule book specfically states that clips must be of the
same type of ammo. Considering how FASA's combat system works, it would be
difficult to make a system to allow mixed burst types.

Not entirely realistic, but falls under that "playablity" catagory.

-Bandit
Message no. 25
From: Razor Girl <sprawlg@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 15:49:17 PDT
> For a slightly different ammo question - given the variety of
>ammo in SR, and the variety of different types of targets for which
>they're designed, it seems to me as though SOMEONE would have designed
>a weapon with multiple clips, and a selector switch to choose between
>them. Especially for a smartgun - change the ammo you're firing on the
>fly, without removing a clip and putting in a new one. Might look a
>little weird, but I don't think it'd be impossible to engineer.
>
> --Sean
Some one did. Back in 1993. It was in the old GDW magazine. It also had
stuff like data jack radios, rules for hydrostatic shock and several
Micheal Stackpole "Wolf and Raven" Stories. They even had a cool Nega
Mage Varient.


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 26
From: Leszek Karlik aka Mike <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 23:36:03 GMT
On 19 Sep 98 04:38:30 GMT, dghost@****.COM (D. Ghost) disseminated foul
capitalist propaganda by writing:

>For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
>then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?

He hits with APDS, or hi hits with Gel. Different ballistics.

Or his gun will jam if he rolls a one.

(If he knows anything about guns, inform him on the high possibility of
feeding mechanism failure due to different ammo. ;>)

OTOH, on a short range, he might hit with both, in which case just use the
better options for the target (for example, no halving the armor, for Gel,
and no added knocback, for APDS), see how damaged he is and then apply
some of the wound to Stun track and some to Physical track. Like, he gets
hit for a Moderate wound, so he gets 2 boxes of stun and 1 physical.

A bit unfair, but well, life sucks. ;-b

>D. Ghost
Leslie
--
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Star Wars junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
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Message no. 27
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:13:42 EDT
In a message dated 9/20/98 4:33:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
trrkt@*****.ONET.PL writes:

> (If he knows anything about guns, inform him on the high possibility of
> feeding mechanism failure due to different ammo. ;>)
really?
I know of no gun that varies depending on the ammo fired, as long as they
are standard pressure, the gun doesn't notice. :-) If a certain round does not
have the pressure to work the action, then it would not work anyway.
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:30 +0200
According to Patrick Goodman, at 10:32 on 20 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> In the example D. Ghost started this with, he was trying to alternate 2 gel
> rounds with an APDS round. What's the point of that? "I want to stun you
> long enough to blow a hole in you." Makes no sense to me. Maybe it will
> when I wake up....

That particular example isn't a very good one, no. Unless, of course, you
want to do a mixed ammo load so you can be prepared for all kinds of
targets -- the gel to quickly take down people and the APDS to be
effective against armored ones as well. Or something like that.

A better example would have been mixing explosive and APDS, or regular and
explosive (say you want explosives, but don't want to spend too much on
them). I still think multiplying the modifiers by the percentage of rounds
of a given type in the burst, then adding them all, will work best, though
it'll slow down play. You could, of course, do the calculations for the
expected "mixed bursts" before the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:31 +0200
According to Sean McCrohan, at 14:16 on 20 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> For a slightly different ammo question - given the variety of
> ammo in SR, and the variety of different types of targets for which
> they're designed, it seems to me as though SOMEONE would have designed
> a weapon with multiple clips, and a selector switch to choose between
> them.

Yes, that would have been a logical extension of smartgun tech to a
degree. A problem, though, is that this will make the weapon weigh a lot
more, essentially doubling the mass of the ammo, plus a little bit to
facilitate changing the magazines.

I don't know if you've ever heard of the MP 40 II, but it was a German SMG
from WWII, essentially a normal MP 40 but with two magazines side-by-side
in a holder that could slide from side to side. When one mag was empty,
the other could be pushed behind the barrel quickly and easily by the
firer. The main problem with it was that it weighed around 6 kg (loaded)
against about 5 kg for a normal MP 40.

That of course doesn't mean it's impossible to do, but it is a question of
whether the user would like to have to carry around a weapon weighing more
than it's perceived to need to.

> Especially for a smartgun - change the ammo you're firing on the
> fly, without removing a clip and putting in a new one. Might look a
> little weird, but I don't think it'd be impossible to engineer.

I could very well picture this for a revolver -- the smartlink knows which
chamber is loaded with which round, and by giving a mental command (Free
Action) the firer can turn the appropriate chamber behind the barrel.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:57:31 +0200
According to Mongoose, at 14:07 on 20 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Difficult, and more prone to jam, but not impossible. Almost any
> multiple clip or magazine design I can envision would require you to
> choose what the next round will be when firing the current one

There are a number of automatic cannons that can be fed from two belts,
and they tend to have some kind of lever that points to the belt that's to
be used. As long as the gunner doesn't move the lever, it will keep using
the same belt. The same principle would be used with a firearm, IMO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:02:12 -0400
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, Gurth wrote:

->According to D. Ghost, at 23:38 on 18 Sep 98, the word on the street
->was...
->
->> What happens if a character decides to alternate the ammo in his/her
->> clip?
->>
->> For example, a character alternates Gel and APDS ammo in the clip and
->> then fires a burst (of 2 gel rounds and one APDS round). What Happens?
->
->The best solution is to only alternate every 3 rounds if you plan to fire
->bursts, so you have one bust of each :)
->
->If you do intend to alternate the way you suggest, I think the best way to
->handle it would be to calculate the bonuses based on the ratio. In your
->case, a burst of 1 gel and 2 APDS rounds would do something like -1 Power
->and x2/3rd armor (factoring in the Stun damage from gel rounds is kinda
->hard, though).
->
->An alternative is to roll for each bullet in the burst separately, but the
->trouble with that is that you'll end up doing more damage to the target
->than the burst as a whole would do, per SR2/3 rules.

Ok, this is getting silly. Make one combat roll, determine the
damage of the APDS round normally (as in, without the burst because
there's only one round). Using the same die roll, determine the effects
of the short burst of gel rounds normally. The target will receive stun
and physical damage, but none of the damage levels will be staged up. Only
+2 power with the gel rounds (+1 to power with the APDS round if you're
not an EvilGM).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 32
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:24:19 -0400
On Sat, 19 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

<snipped>
->Okay, but what about the Gel rounds' knockback effects? Or what if the
->combanation was 1 APDS and 2 flechette rounds?

Ok, while you're at it, load an APDS round (armor piercing), a
flechette round (in case your target is unarmored) and an explosive round
(for the really pleasant knock-down effect). If fired in a three-round
burst, make one attack roll, taking into account recoil, and have the
target make only one dodge/damage resistance roll and consider each
individual round. Reduces the dice rolling but increases the headaches.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 33
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:24:07 -0400
On Sun, 20 Sep 1998, D. Ghost wrote:

<snip>
->I picked APDS and Gel and latter APDS and Flechette because their
->mechanics make them the hardest to combine so any game mechanics would
->have to be able to take them into account.
->
->Now if you improved effectiveness from combining ammo, how about APDS and
->EX-Explosives.

What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
couldn't tell from the book....

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 34
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:24:48 +1000
> What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
>couldn't tell from the book....

EX Explosive is basically identical to regular explosive - except it
costs more (100 nuyen instead of 50) and it increases the Power Level by +2
instead of +1. It's also harder to get a hold of.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 35
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:44:46 -0400
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Bob Tockley wrote:

->> What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
->>couldn't tell from the book....
->
-> EX Explosive is basically identical to regular explosive - except it
->costs more (100 nuyen instead of 50) and it increases the Power Level by +2
->instead of +1. It's also harder to get a hold of.

Danke. What page is this on? I was preparing a character and,
when I couldn't find a difference I just gave them explosive (since the
PCs wouldn't be able to sell it for as much when they killed the guys).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 36
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:35:02 +1000
> Danke. What page is this on? I was preparing a character and,
>when I couldn't find a difference I just gave them explosive (since the
>PCs wouldn't be able to sell it for as much when they killed the guys).

The first reference is in Fields of Fire, but I think what you really
want is page 116 of SR3 (it's the last paragraph under Explosive Rounds).

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 37
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:41:49 -0400
Bob Tockley didst sayeth:
>> What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
>>couldn't tell from the book....
>
> EX Explosive is basically identical to regular explosive - except it
>costs more (100 nuyen instead of 50) and it increases the Power Level by +2
>instead of +1. It's also harder to get a hold of.


And it's as heat stable as non-explosive ammo. It still blows up if you get
cooked by a fireball, but won't do so on a misfire.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 38
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 01:50:50 +1000
>And it's as heat stable as non-explosive ammo. It still blows up if you get
>cooked by a fireball, but won't do so on a misfire.

Umm. Sorry, but you're wrong on that point. The entire entry for EX
Explosive reads "A state-of-the-art version of Explosive Rounds called EX
Explosive rounds adds +2 to the power of the weapon. This version is much
more expensive and harder to find on the streets. It follows all other
standard explosive rounds rules." (page 116 of SR3).
Both FOF and SR3 state that EX uses all other standard rules for
explosive - including the explosion on a misfire.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
Message no. 39
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:10:23 -0400
Bob Tockley didst sayeth:
>>And it's as heat stable as non-explosive ammo. It still blows up if you
get
>>cooked by a fireball, but won't do so on a misfire.
>
> Umm. Sorry, but you're wrong on that point. The entire entry for EX
>Explosive reads "A state-of-the-art version of Explosive Rounds called EX
>Explosive rounds adds +2 to the power of the weapon. This version is much
>more expensive and harder to find on the streets. It follows all other
>standard explosive rounds rules." (page 116 of SR3).
> Both FOF and SR3 state that EX uses all other standard rules for
>explosive - including the explosion on a misfire.


My bad. I guess I got them mixed up with the improved assault cannon rounds
form SSC. *shrug*

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 40
From: Raven <florian.goll@******.UNI-WEIMAR.DE>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 18:36:00 +0000
On 20 Sep 98 at 14:07, Mongoose whispered to my virtual self:

> Difficult, and more prone to jam, but not impossible. Almost
> any
<snip design problems>
> More common would be combined arms, I think- rifles with under
> barrel
> shotguns, for example. Those exist today. However, I can
> definitely see the appeal for a multi-clip shotgun in SR (in RL,
> afaik, chokes are not ajustable, and so shot and slug would not mix
> well).

In the Germany Sourcebook (at least the german version) there is a
Pump Action Shotgun with this it is possible to do mixed ammo (at
least shot/slug and microgrenades), so it should work with the pump
action of your choice and simple double barreled shotguns...
I'm giving the stats below

Altmayr SP
Type Conc Ammo Dmg Weight Cost
heavy 4 7(clip) 9S 3 900EC (that's 450Y)
should also work in drum-fed auto shotguns as the current
time Jackhammer (works like a Revolver) as above I agree that it does
not work with simple clips...


--Raven
It's the end of the world as we know it...
...and I feel fine
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w+ O M+ V PS+++ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+++ R* tv+(++) b+++ DI? D+
G(++) e>++++ h--(---) !r z?
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 41
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:57:45 +0200
According to Fixer, at 10:24 on 21 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
> couldn't tell from the book....

EX adds +2 Power, normal explosive only +1. This is stated in Fields of
Fire and on page 116 of SR3.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:46:20 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:24 AM 9/21/98 -0400, Fixer wrote:
> What's the difference between EX Explosives and Explosive? I
>couldn't tell from the book....

Explosive: +1 to Power
Ex Explosive: +2 to Power


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 43
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:52:42 -0700
> Difficult, and more prone to jam, but not impossible. Almost any
> multiple clip or magazine design I can envision would require you to
> choose what the next round will be when firing the current one

There are a number of automatic cannons that can be fed from two belts,
and they tend to have some kind of lever that points to the belt that's to
be used. As long as the gunner doesn't move the lever, it will keep using
the same belt. The same principle would be used with a firearm, IMO.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hmm, so belts CAN be done. Color me suprised. Still, my point was
that, the next round feeds when you fire the current one, so if you want
something new, you choose, then fire, but the first round after the switch
was thrown would still be the one already in the chamber.
Which would lead to mixed bursts... Perhaps that is why FASA doesn't
publish such guns. :P

Mongoose
Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Odd Ammo Question
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:31:41 +0200
According to Mongoose, at 18:52 on 21 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Hmm, so belts CAN be done.

Magazines, too. There's at least one gun that can have two belts _and_ a
box magazine. The idea is to load the most often-used ammo in the belts,
and special purpose rounds, which you won't fire all that often, into the
mag.

> Color me suprised. Still, my point was
> that, the next round feeds when you fire the current one, so if you want
> something new, you choose, then fire, but the first round after the switch
> was thrown would still be the one already in the chamber.

That detail depends on whether the gun fires from an open or closed bolt.
With a closed-bolt weapon, then yes, you're right -- first it fires the
one in the chamber, and only then the new selection.

A gun firing from an open bolt, though, loads _after_ the trigger is
pressed, so it would fire the new selection immediately.

> Which would lead to mixed bursts...

For RL weapons, that is half the idea -- you can generally switch them
over while the gun is firing, so you can engage different types of target
(or targets that require different ammo types) in one burst.

> Perhaps that is why FASA doesn't publish such guns. :P

Or it could be due to their apparent lack of firearms knowledge...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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