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Message no. 1
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 01:02:39 -0500
Ghouls need to consume 1% of their body weight in metahuman flesh per
week. How much is that in body parts? Ie, the ghouls hand? A few
fingers?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Vampires have an oral fixation"

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Message no. 2
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:35:35 -0500
:Ghouls need to consume 1% of their body weight in metahuman flesh per
:week. How much is that in body parts? Ie, the ghouls hand? A few
:fingers?
:
:--
:D. Ghost


Given they have a higher than human Body and Str, its probably about 2
lbs. a week (more for orcs, lots more for trolls). I'd say 1% of body mass
is about the amount of animal flesh most folks consume each week, if their
diet is balanced that way (mine is, and I'm not freaky in my dietary habits,
though I eat less meat than most of the U.S.). Since its FLESH they eat,
you have to discount the weight of associated bones and so on. I'd say that
2 lbs. is about the amount of edible flesh they could easily strip off a
small to average sized human fore-arm; remember, they can't cook the stuff,
and have to butcher it raw. I'm guessing, comparing the fleshy part of my
arm to a 2lb steak- if I'm wrong, I don't want to know how you'd tell!

Mongoose
Message no. 3
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:31:10 -0500
On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:35:35 -0500 "Mongoose" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
writes:
<SNIP>
> Given they have a higher than human Body and Str, its probably about
2
>lbs. a week (more for orcs, lots more for trolls). I'd say 1% of body
mass
>is about the amount of animal flesh most folks consume each week, if
their
>diet is balanced that way (mine is, and I'm not freaky in my dietary
habits,
>though I eat less meat than most of the U.S.). Since its FLESH they
eat,
>you have to discount the weight of associated bones and so on. I'd say
that
>2 lbs. is about the amount of edible flesh they could easily strip off a
>small to average sized human fore-arm; remember, they can't cook the
stuff,
>and have to butcher it raw. I'm guessing, comparing the fleshy part of
my
>arm to a 2lb steak- if I'm wrong, I don't want to know how you'd tell!

* tries to picture a 2lb steak flopping from his elbow.*

No way ... Now that you mention it, I've had 6lb steaks that were smaller
than the amount of meat on my arm and I'm not particularly fit ... I'd
hazard a guess that one arm (which takes 8 weeks to clone, according to
Shadowtech) would provide about 10 2lb steaks ... (Well, if said arm is
cloned from a 6'5" 200lb human male :) ... Hmmm 25,000 per limb, makes 10
"meals" per limb ... that's 2,500 per week to get the 1% neccissary for a
ghoul's diet ... the rest is covered by the Lifestyle ... Hmmm...
Business opertunity! This would be great for corp, creating clonal limbs
with substandard processes from donated DNA to feed ghouls at a lower
price than the cost of cloning a replacement limb. I f you can do it at
50% normal cost, sell the flesh for 75% the cost of clonal replacements.
You'll make a killing! (so to speak :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Vampires have an oral fixation"

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Message no. 4
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:29:38 EDT
In a message dated 6/21/99 10:11:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
writes:

<< I f you can do it at
50% normal cost, sell the flesh for 75% the cost of clonal replacements.
You'll make a killing! (so to speak :)
>>


But, aside from Dunk's Will, which may not apply here, exactly how are ghouls
(who live in sewers and generally slosh around in the muck) going to afford
1,250 nuyen a week? Their lifestyle is Street, I believe.




Twist
Message no. 5
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:38:47 -0400
At 09:29 AM 6/22/99 , Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/21/99 10:11:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dghost@****.com
>writes:
>
><< I f you can do it at
> 50% normal cost, sell the flesh for 75% the cost of clonal replacements.
> You'll make a killing! (so to speak :)
>But, aside from Dunk's Will, which may not apply here, exactly how are ghouls
>(who live in sewers and generally slosh around in the muck) going to afford
>1,250 nuyen a week? Their lifestyle is Street, I believe.

They're not. Which is why the will gives the prize to some kind of
affordable substitute. Otherwise, the ghouls keeps on living in the sewer
and going for the occasional bit of...takeout.

Other than that, if an affordable synthetic was invented, that could
encourage more ghouls to live above ground and have some kind of normal
life while eaing said synthetic.

Sommers
Insert Witty Quote Here
Message no. 6
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:46:15 EDT
In a message dated 6/22/99 9:39:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

<<
They're not. Which is why the will gives the prize to some kind of
affordable substitute. Otherwise, the ghouls keeps on living in the sewer
and going for the occasional bit of...takeout.

Other than that, if an affordable synthetic was invented, that could
encourage more ghouls to live above ground and have some kind of normal
life while eaing said synthetic.

Sommers >>


Doesn't the process of becoming a ghoul turn most of them into more-or-less
mindless savages? Sure, the odd ghoul retains his sanity (and Intelligence
Rating) but that doesn't seem like enough of a subscriber base to say that
after the reward in Dunk's Will is collected we'll be seeing ghouls as the
suit next door in the various arcologies.






Twist
Message no. 7
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:55:09 -0400
At 09:46 AM 6/22/99 , Twist0059@***.com wrote:
>Doesn't the process of becoming a ghoul turn most of them into more-or-less
>mindless savages? Sure, the odd ghoul retains his sanity (and Intelligence
>Rating) but that doesn't seem like enough of a subscriber base to say that
>after the reward in Dunk's Will is collected we'll be seeing ghouls as the
>suit next door in the various arcologies.

It depends. A good portion would seem to become mindless savages from the
process, although it would be interesting to find out how much of that is
because of the forced canablism. Would that change if there was an
alternative available and you know that you're not forced to eat other
people to survive.

A good portion of them also have to be able to function rlatively well in a
society. Remember in Bug City a sizable population of ghouls formed their
own enclave and work together for an extended amount of time, even when
many normal humans could not. They almost certainly be somewhat slower than
they were before the transformation, but with a bit of luck not overly so.

Physical changes such as their smell and eye problems can be solved in
various ways, or at least controlled, but the biggest problem will still be
the thoughts of other mainstream humans.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 8
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:24:41 -0400
At 09:46 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Twist wrote:
>Doesn't the process of becoming a ghoul turn most of them into more-or-less
>mindless savages? Sure, the odd ghoul retains his sanity (and Intelligence
>Rating) but that doesn't seem like enough of a subscriber base to say that
>after the reward in Dunk's Will is collected we'll be seeing ghouls as the
>suit next door in the various arcologies.

Y'know I find the whole thing sort of funny. The will that is, and the
reward for finding synthetic flesh. I've been into SR from the start, so I
know all about the ghouls, how they were first typed as a meta class then a
strain of HMVV etc.
Well, I got Portofolio of a Dragon and was reading through. I had already
heard about the reward for synthetic flesh so wasn't surprised. However, I
have a new group of people doing SR now and they don't know much of the
history. In talking about Ghouls one day, one of my players who's been a
long time DM in AD&D and is looking to GM SR, said something to the effect
it would be neat to have a player turned into a Ghoul and then they'd have
to try and put some runs together investigating a cure. I laughed
(quitely) and thought, 'how niave'. And I said, "No no no, there is no
cure for Ghouls. Dunkelzahn left money for people to make synthetic flesh
for them to eat."
and he said "Hmm, that's a different way to look at it."

So I got to thinking...yeah, that is a different way huh? Now I know the
Big D was pro-meta and wanting to be politically correct and all...but HMVV
is still classified as a disease correct? There's a huge world wide effort
now in fighting AIDS, and there is references to fighting the strain of
HMVV that produces Vampires and other beings...why didn't Dunk just leave
money for a cure. Actually, I probably don't mean cure but more of a
vaccination. I don't think it would be possible (ie cost effect in the
corp world) to do the massive amounts of gene therapy that it would take to
reverse someone who's been turned into a ghoul...but to stop the
infection...why not?
I'm writing a story about a Ghoul character currently and I'm trying to get
into their heads. Even the ones who retain their intelligence...I don't
think they want to be Ghouls...why would Dunkelzahn want that???


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 9
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:42:44 -0400
At 10:24 AM 6/22/99 , 00DNA wrote:
>At 09:46 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Twist wrote:
>>Doesn't the process of becoming a ghoul turn most of them into more-or-less
>>mindless savages? Sure, the odd ghoul retains his sanity (and Intelligence
>>Rating) but that doesn't seem like enough of a subscriber base to say that
>>after the reward in Dunk's Will is collected we'll be seeing ghouls as the
>>suit next door in the various arcologies.

<snip questions of cure versus synthetic food>

>I'm writing a story about a Ghoul character currently and I'm trying to get
>into their heads. Even the ones who retain their intelligence...I don't
>think they want to be Ghouls...why would Dunkelzahn want that???

Which is going to be easier to accomplish and therefore probably quicker?
TO figure out the dietary requirements of a ghoul and artificially remake
that from some soyproduct or figure out how to vaccinate a virus that is
only activated in the presence of mana? Figuring out viruses is hard enough
as it is, and then to throw into the mix magic activation adds
exponentially to the difficulty.

So maybe he just wanted something that could be done soon to stop them from
killing people, making people want to kill them.
Message no. 10
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:14:05 -0500
:Which is going to be easier to accomplish and therefore probably quicker?
:TO figure out the dietary requirements of a ghoul and artificially remake
:that from some soyproduct or figure out how to vaccinate a virus that is
:only activated in the presence of mana? Figuring out viruses is hard enough
:as it is, and then to throw into the mix magic activation adds
:exponentially to the difficulty.

If it were a simple process of analyzing dietary nutrient requirements
and producing them synthetically, the prize would be rapidly claimed, if the
cash reward would cover the costs (I think it would). I'm not saying it
wasn't, since theres not much in the way of POAD updates. But its quite
likely there is something "magical" in the process, and that the flesh must
actually be from a real metahuman- HMHVV tends to work that way. To my
thinking, ghouls are related to vampires- they don't suffer essence loss,
but they still need to feed of humans (albiet in a less extreeme manner).
That's the source of their "powers" and they die without it. Several Dunky
will itmes would actually require a magical breakthtough, or at least are
intended to foster new magical understanding; I think this is one of them.
Think about it- if you must not only create artificial corpse flesh, but
also the magical aura of artificial coprse flesh...
On the other hand, I don't think innoculating people against the B-L
stain would work. I cetainly would not want a "weakened" form of HMVV
inside me, or evne just the proten case with no DNA (ever heard of prions?).
You might have some luck with a mono-clonal virus targeting "antidote"
treatment for use on people who are exposed to B-L, though. On the other
hand, these are likely already potentially profitable- Dunky's encouragement
in their development isn't needed.

Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:09:33 EDT
In a message dated 6/22/99 10:43:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

<< Which is going to be easier to accomplish and therefore probably quicker?
TO figure out the dietary requirements of a ghoul and artificially remake
that from some soyproduct or figure out how to vaccinate a virus that is
only activated in the presence of mana? Figuring out viruses is hard enough
as it is, and then to throw into the mix magic activation adds
exponentially to the difficulty.

So maybe he just wanted something that could be done soon to stop them from
killing people, making people want to kill them. >>


Interesting to note here that earlier on in Ghoul history (like in Eye
Witness) you had one sane Ghoul for every 100 Intelligence-1 monsters. They
seem to have been moved recently to the "plight of the underclass" situation
that the Orks have dominated for so long.

Also, in ED Ghouls were the result of Horrors, weren't they? Did FASA ever
clear up that quirk between the rules? (And were Cadavar Men really the
start of Cybermancy?)







Twist
Message no. 12
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:17:29 -0500
On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:46:15 EDT Twist0059@***.com writes:
<SNIP>
>Doesn't the process of becoming a ghoul turn most of them into
more-or-less
>mindless savages? Sure, the odd ghoul retains his sanity (and
Intelligence
>Rating)

According to the infection rules, most are anywhere from savage beasts to
sub-human. A few are "normal" but all, even the best ghouls suffer from
reduced Intelligence and Charisma.

>but that doesn't seem like enough of a subscriber base to say that
>after the reward in Dunk's Will is collected we'll be seeing ghouls as
the
>suit next door in the various arcologies.

Oh geeze ... that gives me the most awful image ... "UHF, Jerkins, would
you mind terribly not eating my secretary?"

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Vampires have an oral fixation"

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Message no. 13
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:47:02 -0500
On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:29:38 EDT Twist0059@***.com writes:
>In a message dated 6/21/99 10:11:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dghost@****.com
>writes:

><< I f you can do it at
> 50% normal cost, sell the flesh for 75% the cost of clonal
replacements.
> You'll make a killing! (so to speak :)
> >>

>But, aside from Dunk's Will, which may not apply here, exactly how are
ghouls
>(who live in sewers and generally slosh around in the muck) going to
afford
>1,250 nuyen a week? Their lifestyle is Street, I believe.

Actually it gets worse then it gets better. I was talking with someone
online and he said 4.5% of the body's weight is in each arm. One third
of which is bone. So the aforementioned 200 lb human could only provide
6lbs of flesh per arm. Not enough for a ghoul that needs 2 lbs per week.
So let's turn to legs. 12.5% per leg with still 1/3 bone. So that's
roughly 8.3 pounds of flesh. Getting better but not good enough. Let's
harvest Trolls! Assuming the same ratios (a big stretch, I know), one
troll's leg (based on SR2's [converted/absurdly low] weight of 495lbs)
provides about 20.6 lbs of flesh at the same price of 25,000 nuyen. Now
assuming the 25% discount above for second rate cloning processes, that's
about 1,212 per week. AND this doesn't include the possibility of
selling the normally (thrown away/recycled?) flesh from normal cloning
and bioware growth ...

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"Troll: It's what's for dinner."
*Looks at Jett's PC*
"Here Snooooook'umsSnook'umsSnook'ums ..."
___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Jalong1@***.com Jalong1@***.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:54:10 EDT
<< I f you can do it at
50% normal cost, sell the flesh for 75% the cost of clonal replacements.
You'll make a killing! (so to speak :)
>>
Ah, and I can now see the advertising too :)

"Presenting Mr. Peabody's arm,
Same great taste you expect.
From Mr. Peabody! "

Jalong1
Message no. 15
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:51:07 -0500
:Actually it gets worse then it gets better. I was talking with someone
:online and he said 4.5% of the body's weight is in each arm. One third
:of which is bone. So the aforementioned 200 lb human could only provide
:6lbs of flesh per arm.

Half of which is in the lower arm and hand, I assume. A smaller person
(like I mentioned, say 130 lbs) would therefore have 2 lbs in the lower arm-
WOHOOO, guess I rolled a success on that "canabalistic butchering /
defaulting to intellegence" test!

:AND this doesn't include the possibility of
:selling the normally (thrown away/recycled?) flesh from normal cloning
:and bioware growth ...

I don't think they CAN eat that stuff (it's not metahuman flesh IMO, its
cultured meat)- but they COULD eat the stuff that gets cut out before you
graft in the new "parts"...
Commercial tissue cloning, no matter how cheap, will not (IMO) fead
ghouls. Now, if you force grew a whole body, and it at least had the
potential to survive and learn and live, like a normal person, well, that
might be a valid food source- but that's murder, right? At least by UCAS
law...

Somebody asked if Ghouls were the creation of horrors in ED. Yes, they
are, or they are at least a result of the scourge. That doesn't mean there
is a conflict with SR (the horrors having not yet appeared)- thers no reason
Horrors could not have used magic to create the bruckner-lagner HMHVV strain
back in the fourth age.
Several other Shadowrun creatures are also results of the scourge in ED,
if not direct horror creations. In fact, there are some ED creatures that
are likely results of the previous (2nd age) scourge, I think.
The B-L HMHV Virus would just go "underground" between ages. It also
expalins why some folks goblinized (they already had it in thier genes,
maybe they were infected in the womb) and then new waves of infection apear,
as the rising mana levels makes the diesease more virulent. Mutation might
also acount for ghoul differences from age 4 to age 6, and even currently
shifting population dynamics- a B-L HMHVV variety that does NOT cause
insanity 99% of the time might only be active as mana gets higher.
It also explains why there are no vampires in ED, but there are in SR -
that HMVV variant had not (yet) appeared in ED.

Mongoose
Message no. 16
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:33:44 -0500
> Somebody asked if Ghouls were the creation of horrors in ED.
> Yes, they are, or they are at least a result of the scourge. That doesn't
> mean there is a conflict with SR (the horrors having not yet appeared)-
> thers no reason Horrors could not have used magic to create the bruckner-
> lagner HMHVV strain back in the fourth age.

Except that ghouls are a result of Krieger strain, not Bruckner-Langer
(that's nosferatu, as I recall). Your logic still stands, however.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 17
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Odd Ghoul Question
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:52:26 -0500
On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:47:02 -0500 dghost@****.com writes:
<SNIP>
>Now assuming the 25% discount above for second
>rate cloning processes, that's about 1,212 per week.
<SNIP>

OOps ... forgot to include the 25% discount above. Make that 909 nuyen
per week (or 3,636 nuyen added onto the cost of the ghoul's existing
lifestyle.). Want a larger discount? Clonal limbs aren't normally
purchased in bulk but here they can be. I'm not sure what kind of a
discount that warrants but it still won't be enough to make it
affordable.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel)
"I'd like a bucket of the colonels origincal flavor troll thighs, please
..."

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