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Message no. 1
From: "Simon T. Sailer" <Simon.Sailer@****.AC.AT>
Subject: off-hand rules
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:36:58 +0100
I do find the off-hand rules as printed in FoF not very contenting. I
would be interested how other gamemasters handle this. Do you use
house rules, and if, which ones?
Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 19:21:57 -0500
Simon T. Sailer enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>I do find the off-hand rules as printed in FoF not very contenting. I
>would be interested how other gamemasters handle this. Do you use
>house rules, and if, which ones?

I don't know about off-hand, but their second melee weapon rules scream
MUNCHKIN! Try it sometime...Take two Cougar Blades, Armed Combat 6. All of
a sudden you're rollin g12 die, before combat pool.

Cruel. Phys Ads make it worse.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:40:00 MST
>Simon T. Sailer enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>>I do find the off-hand rules as printed in FoF not very contenting. I
>>would be interested how other gamemasters handle this. Do you use
>>house rules, and if, which ones?
>
>I don't know about off-hand, but their second melee weapon rules scream
>MUNCHKIN! Try it sometime...Take two Cougar Blades, Armed Combat 6. All
of
>a sudden you're rollin g12 die, before combat pool.
>
>Cruel. Phys Ads make it worse.
>
>-=SwiftOne=-

I was just looking at them, and they seem okay. Basically, you are trading
off damage for more skill. You get more dice to throw, but you can't do as
much base damage.

What is the reach of a cougar blade? You can't have two weapons of the same
length unless they are both reach 0. Since all the S damage weapons are
two-handed (I think) that means that one will be M damage and the other L,
which averages to L.

In you example, you would get 12 dice, but you are limited to what you can
put into your pool with the Special skill: Two-cougar blade fighting. Which
costs double during character generation.

I haven't thought about physical adepts, though. Would killing hands apply
to both hands? I would guess so.

I does seem a little unbalanced. Maybe you can only add in half of one
armed weapons skill, so with a Cougar blade skill of 6, you could only add
in 6 + 3 = 9. Three extra dice at the cost of M damage going down to L.
Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 4
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:47:09 -0500
Brett Borger wrote:
>
> Simon T. Sailer enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
> >I do find the off-hand rules as printed in FoF not very contenting. I
> >would be interested how other gamemasters handle this. Do you use
> >house rules, and if, which ones?
>
> I don't know about off-hand, but their second melee weapon rules scream
> MUNCHKIN! Try it sometime...Take two Cougar Blades, Armed Combat 6. All of
> a sudden you're rollin g12 die, before combat pool.
>
> Cruel. Phys Ads make it worse.
>
> -=SwiftOne=-

Don't forget you have to buy an ADDITIONAL skill in the SPECIFIC
combination of paired weapons you want to use together. This is what
keeps it from being munchkin.

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 5
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:30:29 -0500
>What is the reach of a cougar blade? You can't have two weapons of the same
>length unless they are both reach 0. Since all the S damage weapons are
>two-handed (I think) that means that one will be M damage and the other L,
>which averages to L.

*Buzz* That's why I said Cougars. FineBlades and anything Dikoted goes up
to S with single handed weapons. Even averaged with a lower weapon, you
average to M, so your base is the same as Normal weapons....and you are
using twice the die....

>In you example, you would get 12 dice, but you are limited to what you can
>put into your pool with the Special skill: Two-cougar blade fighting. Which
>costs double during character generation.

Yes, but 12 dice is 6 more than I could before, BEFORE combat pool. I had a
character that only learned the Special skill at 2. Rolling 12 dice, he
didn't need it at all.

>
>I haven't thought about physical adepts, though. Would killing hands apply
>to both hands? I would guess so.

No, I was refering to increase Armed Skill. Spend 2 points, get a skill of
6(10), and suddenly you are rolling 20 dice....

> Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.
see above as to why the skill doesn't matter....

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 6
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 07:55:44 -0500
Brett Borger wrote:

<Snip>

> > Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.

> see above as to why the skill doesn't matter....

*Bzzt*

You MUST have a special skill in the SPECIFIC type of weapons you are
using paired in order to roll the additional dice. i.e.: if you don't
have the skill, you DON'T get to roll twice as many dice as you did
before.

> -=SwiftOne=-

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 7
From: The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:19:26 +0000
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> Yes, but 12 dice is 6 more than I could before, BEFORE combat pool. I had a
> character that only learned the Special skill at 2. Rolling 12 dice, he
> didn't need it at all.
The way I interpretted the rules, and I admit this is debateable because
teh wording is ambiguous, is that you roll your base skill plus your
special skill plus combat pool (however combat pool is limited to your
special skill not your base skill -this is the bit which is debatable).

Eg. Armed Combat 6, Cougar Fineblade w/ Sword: 2
Max dice to roll = 6 + 2 + 2 Combat Pool = 10
Max dice using just basic skill = 6 + 6 Combat Pool = 12

The major benefit to me of having the two weapon skill is that you
increase your base number of dice and can thus keep your combat pool back
for dodging bullets! In teh example above using teh 2 weapons you only
spent 2 combat pool, using base skill you've gained a 2 dice benefit
overall but spent 4 more combat pool dice (6 in total).

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
Message no. 8
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:43:00 MST
>*Buzz* That's why I said Cougars. FineBlades and anything Dikoted goes up
>to S with single handed weapons. Even averaged with a lower weapon, you
>average to M, so your base is the same as Normal weapons....and you are
>using twice the die....

Well, that is what you get for llowing Fineblades and Dikoted blades. The
damage goes up, one-handed or two-handed. Just like APDS or exploding ammo.
You can stick them in each hand of a gun.

>>In you example, you would get 12 dice, but you are limited to what you can
>>put into your pool with the Special skill: Two-cougar blade fighting.
Which
>>costs double during character generation.
>
>Yes, but 12 dice is 6 more than I could before, BEFORE combat pool. I had
a
>character that only learned the Special skill at 2. Rolling 12 dice, he
>didn't need it at all.

That's why I suggested only allowing half of the secondary skill, so you
would go from 6 to 9 dice instead of 6 to 12. But either way, you are
sacrificing damage, except in the case of reach 0 weapons (like cougar
blades).

>>I haven't thought about physical adepts, though. Would killing hands
apply
>>to both hands? I would guess so.
>
>No, I was refering to increase Armed Skill. Spend 2 points, get a skill of
>6(10), and suddenly you are rolling 20 dice....

I don't think you would add them twice. I wouldn't allow bonuses from
cyberware or magic to be doubled along with the skill. You are only making
one test.

>> Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.
>
>see above as to why the skill doesn't matter....

It does matter, but doesn't solve the problem. If you removed the special
skill restriction, they would have the 12 dice and then 6 dice of combat
pool.

The rules work well except in the case you mentioned, where a munkin would
head striaght for the cougar blades so he could use the same armed skill for
both weapons, and only bother with a minimal special skill.

Dikote and Fineblade weapons make sense but are prone to munckins or
powergamers.

>-=SwiftOne=-

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:32:17 -0500
>The way I interpretted the rules, and I admit this is debateable because
>teh wording is ambiguous, is that you roll your base skill plus your
>special skill plus combat pool (however combat pool is limited to your
>special skill not your base skill -this is the bit which is debatable).

At last! An answer that understood me.....hmm.....I'll hve to reread the
rules...I thought it was prety clear that it was the skill in each, esp.
since they said you could use Armed Combat for both....

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:32:48 -0500
>Well, that is what you get for llowing Fineblades and Dikoted blades. The
>damage goes up, one-handed or two-handed. Just like APDS or exploding ammo.
> You can stick them in each hand of a gun.

I don't have any problem with this weapons, or APDS (though they have to
work their butts off to get it). So this section is moot.

>>>In you example, you would get 12 dice, but you are limited to what you can
>>>put into your pool with the Special skill: Two-cougar blade fighting.
>>>costs double during character generation.
>>Yes, but 12 dice is 6 more than I could before, BEFORE combat pool. I had
>>character that only learned the Special skill at 2. Rolling 12 dice, he
>>didn't need it at all.
>
>That's why I suggested only allowing half of the secondary skill, so you
>would go from 6 to 9 dice instead of 6 to 12. But either way, you are
>sacrificing damage, except in the case of reach 0 weapons (like cougar
>blades).

You are changing the rules, which is what I was complaining about. And yes,
you do sacrifice damage, but losing one damage level to gain 6 extra dice is
a minor loss....

>>>I haven't thought about physical adepts, though. Would killing hands
>>>to both hands? I would guess so.
>>No, I was refering to increase Armed Skill. Spend 2 points, get a skill of
>>6(10), and suddenly you are rolling 20 dice....
>
>I don't think you would add them twice. I wouldn't allow bonuses from
>cyberware or magic to be doubled along with the skill. You are only making
>one test.

You use the skill twice though. And since Melee combat represents a series
of moves, and you are doubling the weapons involved, it makes sense to use
it twice if you are using the skill twice.....you didn't add skill to one of
the weapons, but to both.

>>> Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.
>>see above as to why the skill doesn't matter....

>It does matter, but doesn't solve the problem. If you removed the special
>skill restriction, they would have the 12 dice and then 6 dice of combat
>pool.

Granted.

>The rules work well except in the case you mentioned, where a munkin would
>head striaght for the cougar blades so he could use the same armed skill for
>both weapons, and only bother with a minimal special skill.

I disagree. Drop the special weapons. Even with a low weapon base damage,
you are rolling a LOT more skill dice, which drastically reduce the ability
of your opponent to dodge, as well as allowing you to roast them fairly well.
(Note, I understand that using two weapons does grant you an advantage, I'm
just arguing the rules are too extreme.)

>Dikote and Fineblade weapons make sense but are prone to munckins or
>powergamers.
...In this case, I had a character who WASN'T a munchkin, who wanted to be a
master of the blade. We had difficulty letting him be great without too
great.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:33:37 EST
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:43:00 MST Denzil Kruse writes:

[snip]

>>> Plus the need for an additional Special skill to tie it together.
>>
>>see above as to why the skill doesn't matter....
>
>It does matter, but doesn't solve the problem. If you removed the
special
>skill restriction, they would have the 12 dice and then 6 dice of
>combat pool.

Um...as I understood it you could only add combat pool equal to the
_special skill_, not the base skill.

>
>The rules work well except in the case you mentioned, where a munkin
would
>head striaght for the cougar blades so he could use the same armed skill
for
>both weapons, and only bother with a minimal special skill.
>
>Dikote and Fineblade weapons make sense but are prone to munckins or
>powergamers.

So it just about everything _else_ in the game...

>
>>-=SwiftOne=-
>
>Denzil Kruse

~Tim
Message no. 12
From: "Kruse, Denny" <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:50:00 MST
>>That's why I suggested only allowing half of the secondary skill, so you
>>would go from 6 to 9 dice instead of 6 to 12. But either way, you are
>>sacrificing damage, except in the case of reach 0 weapons (like cougar
>>blades).
>
>You are changing the rules, which is what I was complaining about. And
yes,
>you do sacrifice damage, but losing one damage level to gain 6 extra dice
is
>a minor loss....

You right, it is a minor loss. That is why I made the suggestion, and sorry
I missed your complaining. What other solution is there than changing the
rules if you think they are unbalanced? I thought you didn't like the way
the rules are as they stand and was making a suggestion.

>>I don't think you would add them twice. I wouldn't allow bonuses from
>>cyberware or magic to be doubled along with the skill. You are only
making
>>one test.
>
>You use the skill twice though. And since Melee combat represents a series
>of moves, and you are doubling the weapons involved, it makes sense to use
>it twice if you are using the skill twice.....you didn't add skill to one
of
>the weapons, but to both.

What I was thinking was the two weapons were combined into one technique.
They work together. That is why you need a special skill, even a 1 or 2,
to bind them together. So even though you are using two weapons, extra dice
would only be added once. What if the style also incorporated kicks? Add 2
more bonus dice for that? And head butts? I guess what I'm saying is your
second weapon may not actually hit, but it presence gives you more options.
But I guess I could see it your way as well. This is where I would make a
decision based on game balance.

If melee is a series of moves, then why not roll a test for each move?
Because it is all resolved in one test. Otherwise, it would be resolved
like two-handed gun firing, with two different tests and a splitting of the
combat pool. Maybe that is the way it should be. Just like using two
weapons. Split the combat pool and add +2 to the second attack.

>>The rules work well except in the case you mentioned, where a munkin would
>>head striaght for the cougar blades so he could use the same armed skill
for
>>both weapons, and only bother with a minimal special skill.
>
>I disagree. Drop the special weapons. Even with a low weapon base damage,
>you are rolling a LOT more skill dice, which drastically reduce the ability
>of your opponent to dodge, as well as allowing you to roast them fairly
well.
>(Note, I understand that using two weapons does grant you an advantage, I'm
>just arguing the rules are too extreme.)

Yeah, you are right. The extra dice will usually help more than the loss of
the damage code. But, the higher damage code can be viewed as two free
successes as long as you make one, which can make a big difference if the
target #'s are high. I guess I was inintentionally incorporating the
optional fix I suggested.

I think my suggestion is a good one, but haven't really thought it through
real vigoroulsy. Sort of like hooking two computer CPUs in parallel or
doubling the number of people on a committee, the performance doesn't double
as well. So it makes sense that using two weapons wouldn't double your
armed skill. So I suggested only adding skill and a half. That makes the
trade off between dice and damage a little better.

>-=SwiftOne=-

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: off-hand rules
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 19:14:37 -0500
Kruse, Denny enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>I think my suggestion is a good one, but haven't really thought it through
>real vigoroulsy. Sort of like hooking two computer CPUs in parallel or
>doubling the number of people on a committee, the performance doesn't double
>as well. So it makes sense that using two weapons wouldn't double your
>armed skill. So I suggested only adding skill and a half. That makes the
>trade off between dice and damage a little better.

Yes, your suggestion is a good fix....I was looking more for the reactions
of other people....most of whom said nothing. Oh well.

Thanx for the discussion.

-=SwiftOne=-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about off-hand rules, you may also be interested in:

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