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Message no. 1
From: "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
Subject: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:13:32 -0500
The problem with explaintions is that in many cases you forget the orginal
intended point. I just did that. I have not gone on-line since I posted the
"Recant". I needed to get off-line (to actually get some work done) and
forgot an essential point I wanted to make. My guess is that you are already
buring me in effigy even as I compose this...

What I gave you was my interpretation of the histroy of ED and SR and my
interpretation of "sentient". The problem was I left out the implications of
that in the SR game. Of course, micro-seconds after I sent that off I
realized that SR (not being the real world) has taken certain stands -
fictionally and in the game rules. One of those is the use of "sentience"
(you can add that to the pet peeve listing). Having the UN declare that
Sasquaches are sentient, is like us here on the mailing list voting to change
apples to an animal. We really have no say in how it is classified as much as
a UN has no real say in what is considered "sentient". What should have been
written is that they are given international protection and civil rights...a
very different thing all together and one which makes more sense.

<This begs the question why the UN even cared. I find it incredibly odd,
unless countries were going to war over the Sasquach issue and the UN needed
to get involved to prevent a world war. I can see it now "Ambassador, you and
your Sasquach love violates the Laws of God and Man! We will invade!!!!!!" I
can't help but think of the movie Duck Soup>

I still reserves the right though that regardless of how the "governments" in
SR act to decide that they are not on the same playing field as the 5 races
(their variations) and dragons in an overview/holistic approach to the this
amorphous blob called the SR Universe. They just can't be. It reduces the
coolness of anyone placed in that upper stratum. Can some be classifed into
that "sentient" level...yes of course. Does that mean they will never be
classified as such? I don't know? (I would rather say that than no, because
nothing is ever written in stone.) Does it make SR less cool? I don't think
so. If you diasagree, all I can say is that I hope it isn't a game breaker
for you (it shouldn't be...but I've given up long ago trying to figure out
what "breaks" a game)

Quick story on "Breaking a game": A week after GenCon last August and the
death of Dunkelzahn, I recieved a box. It was from a person who was retruning
his books "in protest". He was never going to play the game again because I
killed the only important thing in the game. Dunkelzahn was the reson he
started and kept playing. Without Dunkelzahn the game was useless.

No I don't get it either.

Discussions like this are fun and good and I really really do like them
(Steve Kenson, I'm sure, can vouch for getting "phone ear" after spending a
good afternoon talking SR with me) because I do learn from these discussion
and in the long run they are healthier for the game line so in
conclusion...my fingers are tired and I have many documents to type before I
can head home for the evening...

so...

Have Fun!
Play Games!
And Watch That Sasquach Love!

Mike Mulvihill
Shadowrun Line Developer
FASA
www.fasa.com
Message no. 2
From: MC23 <mc23@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 17:22:11 -0500
Mike Mulvihill wrote,
>Have Fun!
>Play Games!
>And Watch That Sasquach Love!

<in a poor singing voice to a Captain and Teneille? medly>
"Looks like Sasquach lo-uh-uh-ove."

- MC23 -
"It happens"
B>]#
Message no. 3
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 20:40:26 -0500
Mike Mulvihill (FASA) enlightened us with these words of wisdom:

><This begs the question why the UN even cared. I find it incredibly odd,
>unless countries were going to war over the Sasquach issue and the UN needed
>to get involved to prevent a world war. I can see it now "Ambassador, you and

Actually, it's more likely they couldn't do ANYTHING productive, so they did
something small that no one really cared about, and pretty much agreed was
fine, so they could hold it up and say "look at the great things we did!".
Governments do it all the time.

>can't help but think of the movie Duck Soup>

You would, being FASA and all. :)

>Quick story on "Breaking a game": A week after GenCon last August and the
>death of Dunkelzahn, I recieved a box. It was from a person who was retruning
>his books "in protest". He was never going to play the game again because I
>killed the only important thing in the game. Dunkelzahn was the reson he
>started and kept playing. Without Dunkelzahn the game was useless.
>
>No I don't get it either.

I don't get it, but can I have his books?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 4
From: Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:13:00 +0200
> (you can add that to the pet peeve listing). Having the UN declare that
> Sasquaches are sentient, is like us here on the mailing list voting to change
> apples to an animal. We really have no say in how it is classified as much as
> a UN has no real say in what is considered "sentient". What should have
been
> written is that they are given international protection and civil rights...a
> very different thing all together and one which makes more sense.
>
> <This begs the question why the UN even cared. I find it incredibly odd,
> unless countries were going to war over the Sasquach issue and the UN needed
> to get involved to prevent a world war. I can see it now "Ambassador, you and
> your Sasquach love violates the Laws of God and Man! We will invade!!!!!!" I
> can't help but think of the movie Duck Soup>

Actually ... -I- can't think how they couldn't comment on 'sentience'. I
can visualize it, the world totally changed, racism and rioting around,
with strange and scary new types of 'sentient, existing creatures'
interacting, speaking, demanding rights, wanting jobs and walking on my
lawn. I think people would demand to know more about these new lifeforms,
and since some of them can interact with us, even with our own tongues,
they would inevitably be given some rights. And if orks and trolls are
given human rights, why wouldn't equally strange beings, such as
sasquatches be? I cannot see the governments citing Tolkien, "Uhm, no
sasquatches. We's gonna shoot 'em.", but I do see them changing a lot of
their legistlation and making a lot of official statements regarding the
new world order.

You just can't ignore some of those critters.

> I still reserves the right though that regardless of how the "governments"
in
> SR act to decide that they are not on the same playing field as the 5 races
> (their variations) and dragons in an overview/holistic approach to the this
> amorphous blob called the SR Universe. They just can't be. It reduces the

Why include dragons, pray tell? You don't get a lot more intimidating,
unhuman and just plain strange than the dragons.

> Discussions like this are fun and good and I really really do like them
> (Steve Kenson, I'm sure, can vouch for getting "phone ear" after spending a
> good afternoon talking SR with me) because I do learn from these discussion

Well, we do learn of these as well. And I'm sure a lot of us would like
to see more of these, more in-depth, theoretical studies of SR.

Oh, and a small question that's been annoying me to no end. I hope you're
willing to shed some light on this, .. Why are dragons classified as
shamanic magicusers? I find it intensely curious.

- J -
Message no. 5
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 18:27:19 -0800
On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Mike Mulvihill (FASA) wrote:
>
> Quick story on "Breaking a game": A week after GenCon last August and the
> death of Dunkelzahn, I recieved a box. It was from a person who was retruning
> his books "in protest". He was never going to play the game again because I
> killed the only important thing in the game. Dunkelzahn was the reson he
> started and kept playing. Without Dunkelzahn the game was useless.
>
> No I don't get it either.

Me neither.

I think he goes into the class of people that are better off not playing
RPGs...

>
> Mike Mulvihill
> Shadowrun Line Developer
> FASA
> www.fasa.com
>

~Tim (I wonder which cult that guy went and joined?)
Message no. 6
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 22:15:37 EST
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:13:00 +0200 Joachim H A Buchert
<avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI> writes:
<snip>
>Actually ... -I- can't think how they couldn't comment on 'sentience'.
>I
>can visualize it, the world totally changed, racism and rioting
>around,
>with strange and scary new types of 'sentient, existing creatures'
>interacting, speaking, demanding rights, wanting jobs and walking on
>my
>lawn. I think people would demand to know more about these new
>lifeforms,
>and since some of them can interact with us, even with our own
>tongues,
>they would inevitably be given some rights. And if orks and trolls are
>given human rights, why wouldn't equally strange beings, such as
>sasquatches be? I cannot see the governments citing Tolkien, "Uhm, no
>sasquatches. We's gonna shoot 'em.", but I do see them changing a lot
>of
>their legistlation and making a lot of official statements regarding
>the
>new world order.
>
>You just can't ignore some of those critters.

Well, you can. It just wouldn't be a good idea...look at Bug City,
though, and see what happened when the city gov gave asylum to ghouls as
being a form of metahumanity. Very few people were happy about it, and
even some of the ghouls didn't care for it. Sasquatch are different
because they're a generally benign race. Shapeshifters, OTOH, don't even
receive the treatment ghouls get, but, IMO, they're at least as sentient
(those that don't live among humans are, of course, more like animals,
but...). It's all a matter of perception.

>
>> I still reserves the right though that regardless of how the
>"governments" in
>> SR act to decide that they are not on the same playing field as the
>5 races
>> (their variations) and dragons in an overview/holistic approach to
>the this
>> amorphous blob called the SR Universe. They just can't be. It
>reduces the
>
>Why include dragons, pray tell? You don't get a lot more intimidating,
>unhuman and just plain strange than the dragons.

Sure you can...there's always the Bugs:) Or what about spirits in
general? Some of them can be pretty darn imtimidating (I'd like to see
you stare down a Force 7 Free anything:)

>
>> Discussions like this are fun and good and I really really do like
>them
>> (Steve Kenson, I'm sure, can vouch for getting "phone ear" after
>spending a
>> good afternoon talking SR with me) because I do learn from these
>discussion
>
>Well, we do learn of these as well. And I'm sure a lot of us would
>like
>to see more of these, more in-depth, theoretical studies of SR.
>
>Oh, and a small question that's been annoying me to no end. I hope
>you're
>willing to shed some light on this, .. Why are dragons classified as
>shamanic magicusers? I find it intensely curious.
>
Dragons are considered "Shamanic" because the way they use magic best
fits into the shamanic mold. There were some recent posts on Dragon magic
only a week ago (if that long) on the list.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 7
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 21:50:59 +0000
> Quick story on "Breaking a game": A week after GenCon last August and the
> death of Dunkelzahn, I recieved a box. It was from a person who was retruning
> his books "in protest". He was never going to play the game again because I
> killed the only important thing in the game. Dunkelzahn was the reson he
> started and kept playing. Without Dunkelzahn the game was useless.
> Mike Mulvihill
> Shadowrun Line Developer
> FASA
> www.fasa.com


*chuckle* weird.. to say the least... and as a side note.. if you
happen to get any more packages from this guy... might wana make sure
they don't tick...

*wave*

Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
HTTP://www.datanet.ab.ca/users/hardware
Message no. 8
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:17:24 -0700
> From: "Mike Mulvihill (FASA)" <FASAMike@***.COM>
> Quick story on "Breaking a game": A week after GenCon last August and the
> death of Dunkelzahn, I recieved a box. It was from a person who was retruning
> his books "in protest". He was never going to play the game again because I
> killed the only important thing in the game. Dunkelzahn was the reson he
> started and kept playing. Without Dunkelzahn the game was useless.
> No I don't get it either.

Not to say I sympathise with the dude that gave away his books and
paid postage on top to make his silly statement...I have been near to
giving up gaming in the past..I can't remember exactly why right
now..I am sure someone else will remind me...But my plan was to sell
my stuff..Hey I paid lots for this stuff...What he should have done
is ignore this development..And keep big D alive in hi s little
world....I am sort of rambling here..The real reason I am sending this
is..Was there anything good in the box??Like maybe Universal Brotherhood
...So how much do you want???
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 9
From: Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:26:01 +0200
> >You just can't ignore some of those critters.
>
> Well, you can. It just wouldn't be a good idea...look at Bug City,
> though, and see what happened when the city gov gave asylum to ghouls as
> being a form of metahumanity. Very few people were happy about it, and
> even some of the ghouls didn't care for it. Sasquatch are different
> because they're a generally benign race. Shapeshifters, OTOH, don't even
> receive the treatment ghouls get, but, IMO, they're at least as sentient
> (those that don't live among humans are, of course, more like animals,
> but...). It's all a matter of perception.

It is indeed, a matter of perception, but to understand what the
governments would do, we must know how they perceive things. That is my
point. The governments don't act like we want them to.

The nations have to worry about stuff like Bug City/Ghoultown happening,
they must contend with mass scale rioting in the worst case scenario or
just anti-gov terrorists. They must be real careful not piss off anyone
and to suck up (in their own way) to the masses, and while not that
numerous, various beings of questionable sentience in the Other category
do make up a mass.

I don't see the overnments (all of them anyway) ignoring that fact, or
coming through unscathed if they do.

> >Why include dragons, pray tell? You don't get a lot more intimidating,
> >unhuman and just plain strange than the dragons.
>
> Sure you can...there's always the Bugs:) Or what about spirits in
> general? Some of them can be pretty darn imtimidating (I'd like to see
> you stare down a Force 7 Free anything:)

(grin) The Bugs aren't sentient the way we know it, I think we can all
agree on that ..

And yes, the spirirts .. but they are such a rare sight and can mask
their true nature easily.

> >willing to shed some light on this, .. Why are dragons classified as
> >shamanic magicusers? I find it intensely curious.
> >
> Dragons are considered "Shamanic" because the way they use magic best
> fits into the shamanic mold. There were some recent posts on Dragon magic
> only a week ago (if that long) on the list.

Yes, the discussion didn't answer my question however. Okay, maybe I just
want more detail. :)

Shamanic? As in they receive their power from faith/someone above them? Hmm.
I wonder what would be the thing ..

Oh well.

- J -
Message no. 10
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:40:03 EST
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:26:01 +0200 Joachim H A Buchert
<avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI> writes:
<snip>
>It is indeed, a matter of perception, but to understand what the
>governments would do, we must know how they perceive things. That is
>my
>point. The governments don't act like we want them to.
>

Funny...that sounds like real life:)

>The nations have to worry about stuff like Bug City/Ghoultown
>happening,
>they must contend with mass scale rioting in the worst case scenario
>or
>just anti-gov terrorists. They must be real careful not piss off
>anyone
>and to suck up (in their own way) to the masses, and while not that
>numerous, various beings of questionable sentience in the Other
>category
>do make up a mass.
>
>I don't see the overnments (all of them anyway) ignoring that fact, or
>coming through unscathed if they do.

Of course not. I'm quite sure the UCAS gov would have cheerfully ignored
the ghouls were it not for various civil rights groups almost certainly
breathing down their collective neck.

>
>> >Why include dragons, pray tell? You don't get a lot more
>intimidating,
>> >unhuman and just plain strange than the dragons.
>>
>> Sure you can...there's always the Bugs:) Or what about spirits in
>> general? Some of them can be pretty darn imtimidating (I'd like to
>see
>> you stare down a Force 7 Free anything:)
>
>(grin) The Bugs aren't sentient the way we know it, I think we can all
>agree on that ..

Neither are the dragons. They simply don't think like (meta)humanity
does, neither do the Bugs, neither do spirits in general. They are alien,
and Bugs probably more than most. While Bugs, Dracoforms, and spirits are
simply not human, Bugs are probably the most alien.

>
>And yes, the spirirts .. but they are such a rare sight and can mask
>their true nature easily.
>
>> >willing to shed some light on this, .. Why are dragons classified
>as
>> >shamanic magicusers? I find it intensely curious.
>> >
>> Dragons are considered "Shamanic" because the way they use magic
>best
>> fits into the shamanic mold. There were some recent posts on Dragon
>magic
>> only a week ago (if that long) on the list.
>
>Yes, the discussion didn't answer my question however. Okay, maybe I
>just
>want more detail. :)
>
>Shamanic? As in they receive their power from faith/someone above
>them? Hmm.
>I wonder what would be the thing ..
>
>Oh well.

I think the reference to dragons using "shamanic" magick refers to the
fact that "dragon magick" is more spontaneous than hermetic. I think:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 11
From: Joachim H A Buchert <avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:52:35 +0200
> >point. The governments don't act like we want them to.
> Funny...that sounds like real life:)

My point all along. A game designer has to think about his or her world
as a WHAT IF OUR WORLD scenario. Which is why I figured that IMO, the
reactions proposed by Mike aren't necessarily the probable ones, unless
he is thinking about something I've missed. probably so, but this whole
thread is about me wanting to know what. :)

> >(grin) The Bugs aren't sentient the way we know it, I think we can all
> >agree on that ..
> Neither are the dragons. They simply don't think like (meta)humanity

Yet Mike included dragons in his list of sentient beings. I don't quite
understand the system by which he measures sentience.

And because I wanted to know, somebody figured I was flaming. Which I was
not. I'm all out of napalm anyway.

> I think the reference to dragons using "shamanic" magick refers to the
> fact that "dragon magick" is more spontaneous than hermetic. I think:)

Indeed, didn't think of that .. but personally I don't think that in
itself qualifies for shamanic magic. Correct me if you are certain I'm wrong.

- J -
Message no. 12
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Oh yeah....Recant 2: Electric Boogaloo (long)
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 15:42:15 EST
On Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:52:35 +0200 Joachim H A Buchert
<avo_jb@**.HELSINKI.FI> writes:
>> >point. The governments don't act like we want them to.
>> Funny...that sounds like real life:)
>
>My point all along. A game designer has to think about his or her
>world
>as a WHAT IF OUR WORLD scenario. Which is why I figured that IMO, the
>reactions proposed by Mike aren't necessarily the probable ones,
>unless
>he is thinking about something I've missed. probably so, but this
>whole
>thread is about me wanting to know what. :)

Great, now I've forgotten what reactions and to what the governments were
reacting...I was the reaction governments had toward the newly defined
sentient critters other than (meta)huamnity and dragons, wasn't it (I had
to check my original reply)? As I understood it, the responsibility for
the actions of spirits was put on the person that summoned it (even if
the spirit is now free), a logical assumption based upon the fact that
most spirits act upon the commands of their summoner. Sasquatch are given
equal rights as a sentient beings, and it is mentioned that some actually
work as sound technicians...Shapeshifters are not given equal rights
(when they're given any rights at all) because, while they are sentient
(more or less, depending on the subject), they are still animals in the
very bottom of their souls (p38, Shadowrun Companion). Ghouls have been
recognized as a metahuman race, by Special Order 162 on November 15, 2053
(p 97, Bug City). SR2 core rules, OTOH, may be dealing with a different
subset of ghouls (the ones in Bug City are rumored to be the result of
some form of HMHVV or similar virus). Bugs are generally recognized as
being a threat, and I think sentience for Invae needs to be decided on a
case by case basis (Queens, Mothers and Female mantids, etc, certainly
are, soldiers and solitary spirits may or may not, IMO, and workers
almost certainly are not, IMO). I don't think that's exactly what you
were asking, but I hope that helps, at least a little bit.

>
>> >(grin) The Bugs aren't sentient the way we know it, I think we can
>all
>> >agree on that ..
>> Neither are the dragons. They simply don't think like (meta)humanity
>
>Yet Mike included dragons in his list of sentient beings. I don't
>quite
>understand the system by which he measures sentience.

Neither Bugs nor Dragons are sentient the way (meta)humanity is sentient.
They both think very differently than (meta)humans do. Bugs may or may
not be sentient (see above) and I don't know for sure about Lesser
Dracoforms, but Great Dragons are most certainly sentient, even if not in
the same manner that we are.

>
>And because I wanted to know, somebody figured I was flaming. Which I
>was
>not. I'm all out of napalm anyway.

Good thing...I don't think my keyboard's flame-retardant:)

>
>> I think the reference to dragons using "shamanic" magick refers to
>the
>> fact that "dragon magick" is more spontaneous than hermetic. I
>think:)
>
>Indeed, didn't think of that .. but personally I don't think that in
>itself qualifies for shamanic magic. Correct me if you are certain I'm
>wrong.
>
You're not wrong, but I don't think you saw what I was saying...Dragon
Magick is not shamanic, shamanic was simply the closest classification it
would fit into. I think Steve Kenson (maybe it was Mike, but I think it
was Steve) said, in reference to how the IE and Dragons can do things
that normal magicians can't imagine in their wettest dreams, that just as
the magick that the Immortal Elves used was a step or two above the
magick "normal" characters had access to, the magick available to Dragons
was a step or two above that. Dragon magick was classified as shamanic,
even though it isn't, really, to make it easier on the GM, rules wise.
Dragons, I've heard, have access to things like spell matrices and
Grimoires (both from ED or before)...Someone (I can't remember who,
off-hand) said to just assume that the dragon "could do anything you
needed them to".

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/

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