Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:47:35 -0700

Message no. 1 On the current month's issue of Popular Science is a picture and
description of the U.S. Army's replacement for the M-16, the Objective
Infantry Combat Weapon (OICW).

The weapon consists of a 20 mm HE rifle with a 5.56mm assault rifle
underneath. The HE launcher is accurate to 1000 meters, and can be
air-burst timed to detonate before or after the target. For example, it
could be timed to detonate a little bit after penetrating, so that the
round could be fired through a window.

The range and accuracy of the 20 mm round is stated to improve these
characteristics of the weapon over the standard M-16 by 500%.

The weapon is controlled by one trigger, but the 20 mm rifle and the 5.56
mm rifle can be separated, and the 20 mm rifle given a trigger, if desired.
The 20 mm rifle was designated as the largest weapon an individual soldier
could fire without recoil affecting accuracy.

The magazine for the 20 mm holds 6 rounds; the 5.56 mm magazine will hold
20 or 30 rounds.

The main innovation in the system is the advanced sight on top of the
weapon, which incorporates IR and a 6x magnifying scope. There will be a
link from the scope to a helmet mounted display, so that a soldier could,
for example, fire the weapon around a corner without having to expose more
than the weapon or sight. Future models will have a wireless link to a
bracelet mounted display, as well. This advanced sight is the key to the
airburst and ranged detonation of the 20 mm rounds. In the illustration,
several buttons were shown for various range bands (250m, 500m, 750m,
1000m).

The weapon is being designed by a combination of firms: Alliance, Heckler
and Koch, etc. Each weapon will cost about $15000. The U.S. Army expects to
deploy it in 2005, where it will initially replace the M203 Grenade
launcher.

In Shadowrun terms:

A short-barrelled Assault Cannon, perhaps 16D (vice 18D) with an
underbarrel Assault rifle, Smartlink, Rangefinder, Image Magnification 2,
Thermographic sight, and Battletac (there are information-sharing abilities
in the system as well).

The firearms SOTA has just advanced ...
--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:10:22 -0400

Message no. 2 Adam Getchell wrote:
> On the current month's issue of Popular Science is a picture and
> description of the U.S. Army's replacement for the M-16, the Objective
> Infantry Combat Weapon (OICW).
>
I'll have to take a look...

> In Shadowrun terms:
>
> A short-barrelled Assault Cannon, perhaps 16D (vice 18D) with an
> underbarrel Assault rifle, Smartlink, Rangefinder, Image Magnification 2,
> Thermographic sight, and Battletac (there are information-sharing
> abilities
> in the system as well).
>
16D, huh? I doubt it. I *really* doubt it. SR already has airburst
grenades and they don't do nearly that much damage (it's as much damage
as 16kg of C4, OK so the explosives rules are out to lunch... ;-) ).

I could go for a 10S... Actually this rifle just sounds a lot like a
tricked-up AK-98.

> The firearms SOTA has just advanced ...
>
It keeps advancing, but most people ignore technology's advances... ;-)

James Ojaste

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:29:50 -0700

Message no. 3 >16D, huh? I doubt it. I *really* doubt it. SR already has airburst
>grenades and they don't do nearly that much damage (it's as much damage
>as 16kg of C4, OK so the explosives rules are out to lunch... ;-) ).

Agreed. ;-) However, an assault cannon in SR is basically a 20-30mm gun
with as much velocity behind it as an infantryman can stand. The 20 mm
*rifle* on the OICW is accurate to 1000 meters, so clearly it is not low
velocity such as a grenade might be. It is a precision fire, not area
effect, weapon. It does have significant recoil. Hence I'd class it as a
short-barrelled Assault cannon.

You'll see what I mean when you read the article.

There's a nice picture of the 5.56mm round next to the 20 mm round ...

>I could go for a 10S... Actually this rifle just sounds a lot like a
>tricked-up AK-98.

Well, remember the 20mm rifle is not a grenade launcher ...

>It keeps advancing, but most people ignore technology's advances... ;-)

Right. The Calico 750 and the PN-90 SMG are two examples that exceed
anything in SR today.

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:20:22 -0400

Message no. 4 At 09:47 AM 8/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On the current month's issue of Popular Science is a picture and
>description of the U.S. Army's replacement for the M-16, the Objective
>Infantry Combat Weapon (OICW).

Someone gave us the URL for this weapon months ago.

www.defense.atk.com/Products/Shoulder-fired/%20Weapons/oicw.htm

For those people that won't/can't/don't read PopSci.

Erik J.

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:42:30 -0700

Message no. 5 >www.defense.atk.com/Products/Shoulder-fired/%20Weapons/oicw.htm

Too bad it doesn't seem to work ...

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Tim Serpas <wretch@**.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:49:42 -0500

Message no. 6 On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:

> >www.defense.atk.com/Products/Shoulder-fired/%20Weapons/oicw.htm
>
> Too bad it doesn't seem to work ...

Try this:

www.atk.com/Business/Defense/products/Shoulder-fired Weapons/oicw.htm

I started from www.atk.com, chose 'Defense Systems' and 'Products'.
From there, I saw OICW.

Wretch

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:15:49 -0400

Message no. 7 At 01:49 PM 8/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Adam Getchell wrote:
>
>> >www.defense.atk.com/Products/Shoulder-fired/%20Weapons/oicw.htm
>>
>> Too bad it doesn't seem to work ...
>
>Try this:
>
>www.atk.com/Business/Defense/products/Shoulder-fired Weapons/oicw.htm

Huh. I have it bookmarked to that URL. And considering I clean the cache
on a regular basis, it can't be the same exact cached page.

Curious. Maybe I typed something wrong.

Erik J.

From:	Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:19:49 -0700

Message no. 8 Try...

http://defense.atk.com/products/Shoulder-fired%20Weapons/oicw.htm

No slash between fired and %20...

Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> >www.defense.atk.com/Products/Shoulder-fired/%20Weapons/oicw.htm
>
> Too bad it doesn't seem to work ...
>
> >Erik J.
>
> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."

From:	"Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:25:48 -0300

Message no. 9 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> >16D, huh? I doubt it. I *really* doubt it. SR already has airburst
> >grenades and they don't do nearly that much damage (it's as much damage
> >as 16kg of C4, OK so the explosives rules are out to lunch... ;-) ).
>
> Agreed. ;-) However, an assault cannon in SR is basically a 20-30mm gun
> with as much velocity behind it as an infantryman can stand. The 20 mm
> *rifle* on the OICW is accurate to 1000 meters, so clearly it is not low
> velocity such as a grenade might be. It is a precision fire, not area
> effect, weapon. It does have significant recoil. Hence I'd class it as a
> short-barrelled Assault cannon.

Make the thing as a "Recoiless Rifle" type of weapon. If it has not
enough
recoil to change accuracy, it's probaly a SS weapon. Maybe 10S to 12S,
not
much more than that.

Bira

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 12:43:28 -0700

Message no. 10 > Make the thing as a "Recoiless Rifle" type of weapon. If it has not
>enough
>recoil to change accuracy, it's probaly a SS weapon. Maybe 10S to 12S,
>not
>much more than that.

It's not a recoilless rifle, its a 20mm rifle with full recoil. It happens
to have an airburst timer. I still think of a direct fire weapon with a
range of 1000 meters as an assault cannon, not a grenade launcher. A
grenade launcher would have to be aimed and fired indirectly (i.e. at an
angle) to reach this range. Also, it doesn't appear to be single shot,
although the magazine is 6 rounds, it seems to be semiautomatic.

The barrel is shorter than the classic panther, so the power should be
reduced a bit.

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:47:03 -0400

Message no. 11 > The barrel is shorter than the classic panther, so the power should be
> reduced a bit.

Actually that would more affect the accuracy rather than
the power.

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:52:17 -0400

Message no. 12 From: Ubiratan P. Alberton <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>

>Adam Getchell wrote:
>>
>> >16D, huh? I doubt it. I *really* doubt it. SR already has airburst
>> >grenades and they don't do nearly that much damage (it's as much damage
>> >as 16kg of C4, OK so the explosives rules are out to lunch... ;-) ).
>>
>> Agreed. ;-) However, an assault cannon in SR is basically a 20-30mm gun
>> with as much velocity behind it as an infantryman can stand. The 20 mm
>> *rifle* on the OICW is accurate to 1000 meters, so clearly it is not low
>> velocity such as a grenade might be. It is a precision fire, not area
>> effect, weapon. It does have significant recoil. Hence I'd class it as a
>> short-barrelled Assault cannon.
>
> Make the thing as a "Recoiless Rifle" type of weapon. If it has not
>enough
>recoil to change accuracy, it's probaly a SS weapon. Maybe 10S to 12S,
>not
>much more than that.

I dunno about no 10S, considering that's the damage of a shotgun (SR2,
no got's SR3 yet). A 20mm HE round is going to cause whole worlds more
damage than a shotgun. But to keep things sane, maybe something like uhh...
12-13D? This is why I brought back variable staging for firearms (and magic
just to be fair, both somewhat different than SR1). For the OICW I'd go with
something like 11D3 or 10D4.

--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:53:51 -0400

Message no. 13 Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:
> >> >16D, huh? I doubt it. I *really* doubt it. SR already has airburst
> >> >grenades and they don't do nearly that much damage (it's as much
> damage
> >> >as 16kg of C4, OK so the explosives rules are out to lunch... ;-) ).
[snip]
> > Make the thing as a "Recoiless Rifle" type of weapon. If it has not
> >enough
> >recoil to change accuracy, it's probaly a SS weapon. Maybe 10S to 12S,
> >not
> >much more than that.
>
> I dunno about no 10S, considering that's the damage of a shotgun (SR2,
> no got's SR3 yet). A 20mm HE round is going to cause whole worlds more
> damage than a shotgun. But to keep things sane, maybe something like
> uhh...
>
It's also the amount of damage caused by a grenade. I doubt it'll cause
more damage than a grenade at close range (without being staged up).

> 12-13D? This is why I brought back variable staging for firearms (and
> magic
> just to be fair, both somewhat different than SR1). For the OICW I'd go
> with
> something like 11D3 or 10D4.
>
I wouldn't say D - I'd definitely stick with S. Rifles, shotguns,
grenades all do S damage (and that's a *lot* of damage). I think that
D is overkill...

James Ojaste

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:03:44 -0400

Message no. 14 > I dunno about no 10S, considering that's the damage of a shotgun
> (SR2,
> no got's SR3 yet). A 20mm HE round is going to cause whole worlds more
> damage than a shotgun. But to keep things sane, maybe something like
> uhh...
> 12-13D? This is why I brought back variable staging for firearms (and
> magic
> just to be fair, both somewhat different than SR1). For the OICW I'd
> go with
> something like 11D3 or 10D4.
>
Also remember a shotgun slug does 10S to a single point.
This is a grenade. Incidentally isn't the grenade damage 10S also?
10S over an area of effect is MUCH more impressive than
a single point of 10S. You are creating a 10 meter blast radius. Even
with a power of 1 you still need *6* successes to take no damage.

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:13:20 -0700

Message no. 15 >I wouldn't say D - I'd definitely stick with S. Rifles, shotguns,
>grenades all do S damage (and that's a *lot* of damage). I think that
>D is overkill...

I suspect this will be resolved in the Firearms Design rules for Cannon
Companion (or whatever it's called). However, there appears to me to be no
subtantiative difference between the OICW 20mm rifle and the Panther
assault gun. And yes, barrel length would affect accuracy but also power as
the round would not accelerate as much out of the barrel (there is
essentially no acceleration of a bullet that occurs once it leaves the
barrel).

Personally, I figure the kinetic impact plus the explosive content is what
separates an assault cannon round from a grenade [D from S]. If the 20mm
round can travel relatively flat ballistically for 1000 meters (the range
of accuracy), it will sure hurt a lot at 50 m. And as I mentioned before,
the OICW is not an indirect fire weapon: a grenade launcher at the range
would be.

>James Ojaste

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:15:43 -0400

Message no. 16 From: bryan.covington@****.COM <bryan.covington@****.COM>

>> The barrel is shorter than the classic panther, so the power should be
>> reduced a bit.
>
> Actually that would more affect the accuracy rather than
>the power.

You better believe it'll affect power... Looking at the picture, how
long do you think the 20mm barrel is on the OICW? 24"? How long is it on a
Panther? 30-36"? Say it's 30" like a good long Goose gun. If you chopped 6'
off of a panther's barrel, the projectile would loose anywhere from 600-1200
feet per second, depending on the pressure of the load. However, you're
right in that it would likely affect accuracy. Adding or subtracting an inch
from barrel length can add or subtract anywhere from 50-200 feet per second,
which will affect accuracy as well. I couldn't even guess at their accuracy
benchmarks, but I doubt it would be any larger than a 4' group at 1,000m.
Hell, I can do that with my m-14...

--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:26:53 -0400

Message no. 17 From: Ojaste,James [NCR] <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>

>Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:
>> I dunno about no 10S, considering that's the damage of a shotgun
(SR2,
>> no got's SR3 yet). A 20mm HE round is going to cause whole worlds more
>> damage than a shotgun. But to keep things sane, maybe something like
>> uhh...
>>
>It's also the amount of damage caused by a grenade. I doubt it'll cause
>more damage than a grenade at close range (without being staged up).

The way grenades cause damage (lots of small, high velocity hurty bits)
is quite a bit different than a 20mm HE round detonating in some poor SOB's
chest cavity... EUUCH!

>> 12-13D? This is why I brought back variable staging for firearms (and
>> magic
>> just to be fair, both somewhat different than SR1). For the OICW I'd go
>> with
>> something like 11D3 or 10D4.
>>
>I wouldn't say D - I'd definitely stick with S. Rifles, shotguns,
>grenades all do S damage (and that's a *lot* of damage). I think that
>D is overkill...

Well, this aint no rifle or shotgun we're talking about here, it's a
light cannon! It's made to defeat armor and such, it'll likely out perform
12.7mm (HMG calibre, which does 10S by SR2 standards) by a huge margin. I've
never heard of anyone taking a .50 cal in the chest and living to describe
the sounds they made, but when we get into the light, explosive cannon
rounds, we're in a whole other ball park here.
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:33:51 -0400

Message no. 18 On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:

->> The barrel is shorter than the classic panther, so the power should be
->> reduced a bit.
->
-> Actually that would more affect the accuracy rather than
->the power.

The length of the barrel determines accuracy and power as in a
longer barrel the gasses created by the pin striking the bullet push the
bullet for a longer period, thereby increasing power.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:45:07 -0700

Message no. 19 > Well, this aint no rifle or shotgun we're talking about here, it's a
>light cannon! It's made to defeat armor and such, it'll likely out perform
>12.7mm (HMG calibre, which does 10S by SR2 standards) by a huge margin. I've
>never heard of anyone taking a .50 cal in the chest and living to describe
>the sounds they made, but when we get into the light, explosive cannon
>rounds, we're in a whole other ball park here.

Right, it's a light cannon. If you go to other places on their website
you'll notice they have an antiarmor projectile with terminal phase seeker
and rocket boost designed to extend the reach of the M1A2 Abram's 120mm
Rhinemetall smoothbore. Certainly such a projectile could be made for the
OICW (at least by Shadowrun's time) to give it light armor-piercing
capabilities.

Even without this, I don't see personal body armor having much effect on
this projectile, so the poor sod that gets hit by it is SOL.

>Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:50:02 -0700

Message no. 20 >which will affect accuracy as well. I couldn't even guess at their accuracy
>benchmarks, but I doubt it would be any larger than a 4' group at 1,000m.
>Hell, I can do that with my m-14...

Of course, I imagine that the variable fusing and explosive load of the
20mm means it will still have a rather nasty effect on the target ...

>Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:55:35 -0400

Message no. 21 From: bryan.covington@****.COM <bryan.covington@****.COM>

> Also remember a shotgun slug does 10S to a single point.
>This is a grenade. Incidentally isn't the grenade damage 10S also?
> 10S over an area of effect is MUCH more impressive than
>a single point of 10S. You are creating a 10 meter blast radius. Even
>with a power of 1 you still need *6* successes to take no damage.

That's the thing, I'm not talking about a grenade. I'm talking about an
explosive high velocity (on the order of 5,000-8,000(+?) F/pS range)
projectile that will explode on impact with hard armor, or in the case of
soft, soft armored targets (i.e. people), deep inside the body. Ever see the
"small" detonation of the 20mm cannon rounds from the Apache's chain gun?
Granted they're not on the scale of a grenade, perhaps 1/8th that or so. Now
just imagine something like that "working it's magic" inside (or nearly so)
of a person... Successes aside, don't tell me that wouldn't be "Deadly".

Simply put, this thing is an assault cannon on vacation. I don't feel it
should be exactly on par with something like a Light Anti Armor Weapon (see
p.39 FoF for a description) which runs at 12D (which may be kinda light
IMO), but it would be quite a bit more than an HMG (10S) maybe something
like 10D. Sounds good to me. Anyone else?
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:06:39 -0400

Message no. 22 At 03:47 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> The barrel is shorter than the classic panther, so the power should be
>> reduced a bit.
>
> Actually that would more affect the accuracy rather than
>the power.

Okay, Adam G. and crew, jump all over this if this is wrong.

It's generally bad to try to equate paintball guns with real firearms, but
I *think* this is a case in which it can apply.

With a paintball gun, there is CO2/Nitrogen/Air that acts as a propellant
for the projectile, the .68 calibre paintball. It takes the role of the
gunpowder does the gas propellant.

The gun fires, shooting the paintball down the barrel. If the barrel is
too short or if there is too much porting (common among All American
barrels) gas (propellant) begins to escape *before* the paintball has been
propelled to it's maximum capable velocity. That's why most barrels will
be between 10" to 14" as that's the ideal distance to achieve maximum
velocity and accuracy. You can go longer which does increase accuracy, but
you also lose some range/velocity simply because of unneeded/unnecessary
friction; probably a negligible factor in something like a real firearm,
but can be critical in a gelatin projectile traveling under 300 feet per
second.

I would guess that a real firearm might be the same way; if a barrel is too
short, the explosive gases would be dispersed before they can impart
maximum velocity to the actual projectile. It'll still hurt lots to be
shot with something like this, but I don't think it would have ideal
velocity, range or accuracy.

Am I at least in the same ballpark playing the same game here Adam?

Erik J.

It can be fun to have certain someones play connect the dots with paintball
bruises...

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:37:00 -0400

Message no. 23 From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>

>If you go to other places on their website
>you'll notice they have an antiarmor projectile with terminal phase seeker
>and rocket boost designed to extend the reach of the M1A2 Abram's 120mm
>Rhinemetall smoothbore. Certainly such a projectile could be made for the
>OICW (at least by Shadowrun's time) to give it light armor-piercing
>capabilities.

OMG! Attack of the Nasty Thoughts(tm)!

I saw some kinda show some weeks ago, it was all about the evolutions of
small arms and such. At the end they started discussing whack noise like
smart bullets, they even had some of those cheesy military prototype/concept
movies with bad special effects. Basically, these smart bullets have a laser
detector built into their nose, and the pointy nose (head? :) of the bullet
is separated from the main mass/body by a ball joint type thing and
connected to it with fine wires which would turn the nose and the rest of
the bullet with it towards a reflected laser source. Effectively making
minor course corrections to keep it on target. Now combine this with
smartlink type technology and 60 years of explosive/anti-armor research and
you have one hellacious little sniper and/or anti-armor weapon. You put a
20-25mm cannon round in the right place, and no person/tank/building is safe
anymore...
This type of thing loaded in a 2060's OICW, and the average infantry man
is capable of taking out just about anything...
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:12:33 -0700

Message no. 24 >I would guess that a real firearm might be the same way; if a barrel is too
>short, the explosive gases would be dispersed before they can impart
>maximum velocity to the actual projectile. It'll still hurt lots to be
>shot with something like this, but I don't think it would have ideal
>velocity, range or accuracy.
>
>Am I at least in the same ballpark playing the same game here Adam?

Exactly right. ;-)

Depending upon the caliber and bullet, the ideal rifle barrel would be
about 36 inches long. As you noted before, a bullet essentially stops
accelerating once it leaves the barrel. Some time ago in Guns and Ammo, if
I remember correctly, they did a ballistics test on a variety of barrel
lengths including one 10 feet long. The excess friction did indeed slow the
bullet, and one of the calibers (I think it was .22) would have had
(projected) negligible velocity out of a 40' barrel.

Speaking of which, an electrothermal weapon would have a much longer "ideal
barrel length" as the energy curve for the combustion process is much
wider. As far as gauss weapons go, energy in the round increases as the
square of the barrel length so obviously you want as long a barrel as
possible.

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Bai Shen <baishen@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:12:11 -0400

Message no. 25 > Well, this aint no rifle or shotgun we're talking about here, it's a
> light cannon! It's made to defeat armor and such, it'll likely out perform
> 12.7mm (HMG calibre, which does 10S by SR2 standards) by a huge margin. I've
> never heard of anyone taking a .50 cal in the chest and living to describe
> the sounds they made, but when we get into the light, explosive cannon
> rounds, we're in a whole other ball park here.

Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:21:57 -0500

Message no. 26 On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Erik Jameson wrote:

> I would guess that a real firearm might be the same way; if a barrel is too
> short, the explosive gases would be dispersed before they can impart
> maximum velocity to the actual projectile. It'll still hurt lots to be
> shot with something like this, but I don't think it would have ideal
> velocity, range or accuracy.

sounds fairly close. IIRC another problem with having to short of a barel
is increased muzzle flash. Muzzle flash is caused by the final combustion
of the propellent gases after they leave the barrel of the gun. A cut
down barrel would mean a lot more unburned propelent would be exiting the
barrel leading to a larger muzzle flash. Off the top of my head this
would make for two problems for the shooter. 1) increased chance of
dazzeling yourself from the flash, exspecialy at night(There is a reason
you usualy take flare comp. with your lowlight cybereyes:) ). 2) an
increase to the signature of the weapon when it was fired. AKA that cop
two blocks a way has a much better chance of seeing the flash and probably
the louder sound of the shot.

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com

From:	Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 01:27:22 -0700

Message no. 27 >> Well, this aint no rifle or shotgun we're talking about here, it's a
>> light cannon! It's made to defeat armor and such, it'll likely out perform
>> 12.7mm (HMG calibre, which does 10S by SR2 standards) by a huge margin.
I've
>> never heard of anyone taking a .50 cal in the chest and living to describe
>> the sounds they made, but when we get into the light, explosive cannon
>> rounds, we're in a whole other ball park here.

Actually, from the Popular Science article (months old now, btw), it was
NOT primarily a direct fire weapon; the %500 percent increase was not to
accuracy, but to EFEECTIVENESS< i.e., %50 disabling shots. The big bonus was
you could depend on close hits, and do things like range your burst to a piece
of cover, then aim slightly above that cover. BOOM- small grenade explodes 5
feet over enemies head, taking him out of that fight. I say small grenades
because that's what they were described as, not as cannon rounds of any sort.
I never read anything saying the 20MM airtimed rounds were for direct fire;
that's what the regular bullets are for! Nor were those rounds described as
armor piercing, or intended to explode inside living targets.

Mongoose

From:	David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:45:56 -0400

Message no. 28 On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:

-> That's the thing, I'm not talking about a grenade. I'm talking about an
->explosive high velocity (on the order of 5,000-8,000(+?) F/pS range)
->projectile that will explode on impact with hard armor, or in the case of
->soft, soft armored targets (i.e. people), deep inside the body. Ever see the
->"small" detonation of the 20mm cannon rounds from the Apache's chain gun?
->Granted they're not on the scale of a grenade, perhaps 1/8th that or so. Now
->just imagine something like that "working it's magic" inside (or nearly so)
->of a person... Successes aside, don't tell me that wouldn't be "Deadly".
->
-> Simply put, this thing is an assault cannon on vacation. I don't feel it
->should be exactly on par with something like a Light Anti Armor Weapon (see
->p.39 FoF for a description) which runs at 12D (which may be kinda light
->IMO), but it would be quite a bit more than an HMG (10S) maybe something
->like 10D. Sounds good to me. Anyone else?

Throwing in my two nuyen:
Ok, in SR3 (which I still don't have but have heard a lot about)
all target numbers to dodge firearms are 4 (or 6, not clear yet, someone
clarify please). So... that being the case, you can pray you dodge the
bleeder... in which case, you're ok.
From what you're describing, if this thing hits you in your chest
cavity, you're dead. What if it hits you in the arm? Or your leg?
Probably goodbye limb and a portion of the body (not sure as to how
explosive it is, it may not explode on impact with an arm or leg). That
being the case, this weapon should have a very high power rating, but a
lower damage category (stop swearing, I will attempt to explain).
Let's give this thing a 16S for starters (guesstimate). Ok, sammy
pulls out this new toy and starts shooting around... The more successes he
gets, the closer to the central portion of the body he gets, hence, more
damage. If you get his by this thing (dodge rolls not enough) you're
going to get hurt, end of story. If you manage to dodge enough to bring
down your opponents number of successes to like 1 or 2, you only got
grazed / limb hit. Then you roll body resistance against teh extremely
high target number (even really good armor would be breached) and pray for
a success or two. Nevertheless, if you get hit, you're gonna get hurt.
I'm proposing a 16S because of the explosive effects being less
than those of an assault cannon, therefore less damaging. This things
does sound nearly as powerful, though, therefore the slightly reduced
power level.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:03:38 -0500

Message no. 29 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Mongoose wrote:
> I say small grenades because that's what they were described as, not as
> cannon rounds of any sort. I never read anything saying the 20MM
> airtimed rounds were for direct fire; that's what the regular bullets
> are for! Nor were those rounds described as armor piercing, or intended
> to explode inside living targets.

A big reason it isnt described as a direct fire explosive cannon
round is that such a round would be illegal to use against humans in time
of war. The Geneva Conventions prohibit explosive shells of less than a
certian size (aka artilery) from being used against troops since the large
messy holes that would make would be inhumane. Infact you arnt supposed
to use the .50 M-2 HMG against troops either (not that that would stop a
grunt that was about to be over run). Now grenades are perfectly legal so
having a round that is a timed grenade sidesteps the Geneva Convention
prohibition. It also is probably more effective. Would you rather REALLY
kill one guy with a direct hit or airburst over the top of the MG nest and
kill/hurt all the guys manning the weapons? If you only want to kill one
guy, well you have the 5.56mm rounds to do that.
Now what would be really scary is when they get the rangfinder on
the OICW intergrated with the backpack computer, personal GPS and the
digital radio. Then the infantryman sneaking through the bush can spot a
target, range it, and send back the exact position of that target to the
artilery battery 3 miles away with out sending a single word over the
radio, just a microburst of encrypted digital information. IIRC the new
M1-A2 Abrams tank can do its own version of this today, its just a tad bit
easier to see than that infantryman. And you wonder where Jon got the idea
for the IVIS, heck he stole the name from the M1-A2/M2/3-A3 program. :)

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:55:44 -0400

Message no. 30 > > Well, this aint no rifle or shotgun we're talking about here,
> it's a
> > light cannon! It's made to defeat armor and such, it'll likely out
> perform
> > 12.7mm (HMG calibre, which does 10S by SR2 standards) by a huge
> margin. I've
> > never heard of anyone taking a .50 cal in the chest and living to
> describe
> > the sounds they made, but when we get into the light, explosive
> cannon
> > rounds, we're in a whole other ball park here.
>
> Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
> modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
> rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
>
To be proper the Barret fires .50 caliber rounds. I'm
not sure what that equates to but the gun is officially chambered for
.50 cal.

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:56:54 -0400

Message no. 31 > you usualy take flare comp. with your lowlight cybereyes:) ). 2) an
> increase to the signature of the weapon when it was fired. AKA that
> cop
> two blocks a way has a much better chance of seeing the flash and
> probably
> the louder sound of the shot.
>
I think by the time you are hurling 20mm HE rounds at
the enemy, alerting the police is no longer an issue.

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:12:21 -0400

Message no. 32 From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.net>

> Actually, from the Popular Science article (months old now, btw), it
was
>NOT primarily a direct fire weapon; the %500 percent increase was not to
>accuracy, but to EFEECTIVENESS< i.e., %50 disabling shots. The big bonus
was
>you could depend on close hits, and do things like range your burst to a
piece
>of cover, then aim slightly above that cover. BOOM- small grenade explodes
5
>feet over enemies head, taking him out of that fight. I say small grenades
>because that's what they were described as, not as cannon rounds of any
sort.
>I never read anything saying the 20MM airtimed rounds were for direct fire;
>that's what the regular bullets are for! Nor were those rounds described
as
>armor piercing, or intended to explode inside living targets.

You know, this just reminds me of something. This weapon couldn't have
been desigened, or intended at all to be a direct-fire weapon. Or alteast
one to be used in the anti-personell role. The Hague Convention prohibits
the use of explosive directfire rounds for use against personell in time of
war... It's considered "inhumane".
So I guess this is just as you've described Mongoose, basically just a
small, really fast grenade. Not quite as cool as I had origionally thought,
but I can find many more uses for this than I could for a 40mm grenade
considering it's flatter trajectory, I could put it right where I need it
instead of having to guess fire arcs.
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:26:51 -0400

Message no. 33 > Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
> modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
> rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.

Yeah, but that thing uses some kind of hybrid explosive APDS type of
ammo. And besides, I'm of the opinion that that gun is mildly munchy.

From:	Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:24:50 -0400

Message no. 34 At 10:55 AM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
>> modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
>> rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
>>
> To be proper the Barret fires .50 caliber rounds. I'm
>not sure what that equates to but the gun is officially chambered for
>.50 cal.
>

Same thing. 25.4 mm per inch. A .50 caliber weapon fires bullets .5 inches
in diameter. .5 inches is equal to 12.7 mm.

The same way that 5.56mm is equal to .223 caliber in the english system. In
the US they will usually put both measurements for amuunition on the box.

Sommers, Confirmation #23263
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:25:11 -0400

Message no. 35 > That's the thing, I'm not talking about a grenade. I'm talking
> about an
> explosive high velocity (on the order of 5,000-8,000(+?) F/pS range)
> projectile that will explode on impact with hard armor, or in the case
> of
> soft, soft armored targets (i.e. people), deep inside the body. Ever
> see the
> "small" detonation of the 20mm cannon rounds from the Apache's chain
> gun?
> Granted they're not on the scale of a grenade, perhaps 1/8th that or
> so. Now
> just imagine something like that "working it's magic" inside (or
> nearly so)
> of a person... Successes aside, don't tell me that wouldn't be
> "Deadly".
>
A 9mm pistol is deadly too. But it doesn't get a D
damage code. Plus to do that you have to hit them dead on. This implies
to me that while getting a dead on hit to the torso would be freakin
deadly, a nearby round would still do a good bit of damage (its a
grenade after all). If you wanted to direct fire it, just use your
successes to stage up the damage and boom, 10d.

> Simply put, this thing is an assault cannon on vacation. I don't
> feel it
> should be exactly on par with something like a Light Anti Armor Weapon
> (see
> p.39 FoF for a description) which runs at 12D (which may be kinda
> light
> IMO), but it would be quite a bit more than an HMG (10S) maybe
> something
> like 10D. Sounds good to me. Anyone else?
> --
> Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
> Confuscious Say,
> "Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
> UIN: 1864690
> -------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
> v3.12
> GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
> o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
> X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
> --------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:35:16 -0400

Message no. 36 At 11:26 AM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
>> modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
>> rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
>
> Yeah, but that thing uses some kind of hybrid explosive APDS type of
>ammo. And besides, I'm of the opinion that that gun is mildly munchy.
>

You're supposed to treat the round as APDS, simply because the bullet is so
big and has so much power behind it that it acts like APDS. The Barret 121
is based off of the Barret .50 cal sniper rifle, which exists today. Its
used to shoot at people through things, like brick walls! Its big, heavy,
unwieldy, and definitley a one shot-one kill weapon.

I tend not to think of it as muchy simply because its used today, just as
its described.

Sommers, Confirmation #23263
"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

From:	bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:34:35 -0400

Message no. 37 > > To be proper the Barret fires .50 caliber rounds. I'm
> >not sure what that equates to but the gun is officially chambered for
> >.50 cal.
> >
>
> Same thing. 25.4 mm per inch. A .50 caliber weapon fires bullets .5
> inches
> in diameter. .5 inches is equal to 12.7 mm.
>
> The same way that 5.56mm is equal to .223 caliber in the english
> system. In
> the US they will usually put both measurements for amuunition on the
> box.
>
I figured this was the case, but it's an American gun so
it fires .50 cal dammit! ;)

From:	"M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:47:14 EDT

Message no. 38 In a message dated 8/21/98 11:10:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
craigjwjr@*********.NET writes:

> You know, this just reminds me of something. This weapon couldn't have
> been desigened, or intended at all to be a direct-fire weapon. Or alteast
> one to be used in the anti-personell role. The Hague Convention prohibits
> the use of explosive directfire rounds for use against personell in time of
> war... It's considered "inhumane".

It is probably ment to give the squad minor anti armor capability agianst
light vehicles and emplacements, but that is just a guess on my part.

-Bandit

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:25:15 -0700

Message no. 39 >you usualy take flare comp. with your lowlight cybereyes:) ). 2) an
>increase to the signature of the weapon when it was fired. AKA that cop
>two blocks a way has a much better chance of seeing the flash and probably
>the louder sound of the shot.

Don't forget all the dust that's going to be kicked up.

Saw an article on .50 cal hunting rifles. One of them has a muzzle brake
the size of a soda can, and the rifle weighs about 48 lbs. These two
factors combine to make the weapon bearable, at least for a couple of
rounds. When it was fired it broke camera flashes at a distance of 10 feet
and kicked up a couple pounds of dust.

> Thomas Price

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:32:54 -0400

Message no. 40 From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>

>You're supposed to treat the round as APDS, simply because the bullet is so
>big and has so much power behind it that it acts like APDS. The Barret 121
>is based off of the Barret .50 cal sniper rifle, which exists today. Its
>used to shoot at people through things, like brick walls! Its big, heavy,
>unwieldy, and definitley a one shot-one kill weapon.
>
>I tend not to think of it as muchy simply because its used today, just as
>its described.

I meant munchy because of it's damage code. Considering an HMG (.50cal
in my and the US Army's opinion) "only" does 10S. Where's the other 4 power
and 1 wound level coming from? It says something about custom ammo, what
kind of "customising" could lead to such a big leap in power? Simply hot
loading it would be enough. It'd have to be some kind of explosive round,
and unless it uses some kind of mini shaped charge warhead, it wouldn't be
considered armor piercing. And I mean real, hard armor piercing.
As for the RL Barret, I know all about it, I own one (the bolt action,
not the auto-loader).
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:34:40 -0700

Message no. 41 > Actually, from the Popular Science article (months old now, btw), it was
>NOT primarily a direct fire weapon; the %500 percent increase was not to
>accuracy, but to EFEECTIVENESS< i.e., %50 disabling shots. The big bonus was
>you could depend on close hits, and do things like range your burst to a piece
>of cover, then aim slightly above that cover. BOOM- small grenade explodes 5
>feet over enemies head, taking him out of that fight. I say small grenades
>because that's what they were described as, not as cannon rounds of any sort.

It was not described as a small grenade in the popular science article; it
was a fused airburst HE round. Look at the nice picture of the 20 mm round.
You will note that the casing has quite a bit of room for propellant. A
grenade would have about half that.

You still seem to miss the point: a grenade is a low velocity, indirect
fire weapon. If you were firing an M203 at any distance you were firing at
an angle of 30 - 45 degrees. If you look at the M203 grenade launcher you
will notice a very tall sighting system ... that's to get the proper angle
for the range desired.

Look again at the sighting system on the OICW. It is a direct fire sighting
system using IR and a 6x magnifier. It would not be possible to use such a
system with an indirect fire weapon.

Just because the rounds could be fused doesn't mean that have to be. I'm
actually writing up the stats on the OICW for Shadowrun, and yes, I employ
different damage codes depending upon the fusing.

>I never read anything saying the 20MM airtimed rounds were for direct fire;
>that's what the regular bullets are for! Nor were those rounds described as
>armor piercing, or intended to explode inside living targets.

AP rounds were speculation on my part, for the 2060 version.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:38:13 -0500

Message no. 42 >Just because the rounds could be fused doesn't mean that have to be.
I'm
>actually writing up the stats on the OICW for Shadowrun, and yes, I
employ
>different damage codes depending upon the fusing.

You will, of course, post this to the list, yes...? <hopeful look>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

From:	Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:52:03 -0400

Message no. 43 From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>

>Don't forget all the dust that's going to be kicked up.
>
>Saw an article on .50 cal hunting rifles. One of them has a muzzle brake
>the size of a soda can, and the rifle weighs about 48 lbs. These two
>factors combine to make the weapon bearable, at least for a couple of
>rounds. When it was fired it broke camera flashes at a distance of 10 feet
>and kicked up a couple pounds of dust.

Tell me about dusting man... I own a a Barret M-95 which I use for long
range shooting competition. We do all of our shooting late at night when the
air is cooler and less turbulent (so we can see the target which during the
day looks like it's at the bottom of a swimming pool because of heat
distortion), but before anyone does any shooting we have to wet the ground
down around and in front of the shooting stations because the dust will fly
all over the place. Your estimation of the size of most of the muzzle brakes
is about right. One thing about muzzle brakes: although they lower recoil
considerably, they also increase the apparent noise by about a factor of 2-3
...
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:20:56 -0400

Message no. 44 At 12:52 PM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

>is about right. One thing about muzzle brakes: although they lower recoil
>considerably, they also increase the apparent noise by about a factor of 2-3

What?

This strikes me as very odd. I thought the purpose of muzzle brakes
weren't for recoil, but to *reduce* noise. That's the apparent purpose in
paintball barrels (since recoil isn't a problem and it doesn't affect
accuracy) and I had always thought, even before paintball, that was also
the purpose in real firearms.

Have I been mistaken all these years?

Erik J.

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:31:00 -0700

Message no. 45 > You know, this just reminds me of something. This weapon couldn't have
>been desigened, or intended at all to be a direct-fire weapon. Or alteast
>one to be used in the anti-personell role. The Hague Convention prohibits
>the use of explosive directfire rounds for use against personell in time of
>war... It's considered "inhumane".

Just like we never used 25mm Bushmaster cannon against Iraqi troops? Or
A-10 30 mm GAU?

Well, technically that wasn't a war, that was a peacekeeping action.

Too bad those corps never signed the Hague convention ...

But seriously, when I look at milspec armor and one wants to go through it ...

>Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:34:49 -0700

Message no. 46 >This strikes me as very odd. I thought the purpose of muzzle brakes
>weren't for recoil, but to *reduce* noise. That's the apparent purpose in

Perhaps you're thinking of a sound suppressor, which vents the gasses into
baffles in such a way as to reduce the velocity of the gasses when they
exit the system.

Muzzle brakes reduce recoil by venting some of the gasses backwards in such
a way as to impart forward momentum to the barrel. A well designed
artillery muzzle brake can handle 75% of the recoil.

Yes, they're quite a bit louder since the gas produces a nice shockwave,
focussed around in the environment instead of just forwards (the way the
expansion gasses without the muzzle brake would do).

>Have I been mistaken all these years?

Sadly, yes. ;-)

>Erik J.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:56:23 -0400

Message no. 47 At 10:34 AM 8/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>This strikes me as very odd. I thought the purpose of muzzle brakes
>>weren't for recoil, but to *reduce* noise. That's the apparent purpose in
>
>Perhaps you're thinking of a sound suppressor, which vents the gasses into
>baffles in such a way as to reduce the velocity of the gasses when they
>exit the system.

No, I was thinking of a muzzle brake.

>Muzzle brakes reduce recoil by venting some of the gasses backwards in such
>a way as to impart forward momentum to the barrel. A well designed
>artillery muzzle brake can handle 75% of the recoil.

Huh. I thought that was something else entirely.

>>Have I been mistaken all these years?
>
>Sadly, yes. ;-)

Damn! I guess I'm on a roll this week! Woohoo!

Erik J.

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:58:58 -0500

Message no. 48 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:35:16 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
writes:
>At 11:26 AM 8/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> > Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's
essentially
>> > modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
>> > rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.

>> Yeah, but that thing uses some kind of hybrid explosive APDS type
of
>>ammo. And besides, I'm of the opinion that that gun is mildly munchy.

>You're supposed to treat the round as APDS, simply because the bullet is
so
>big and has so much power behind it that it acts like APDS. The Barret
121
>is based off of the Barret .50 cal sniper rifle, which exists today. Its
>used to shoot at people through things, like brick walls! Its big,
heavy,
>unwieldy, and definitley a one shot-one kill weapon.
>
>I tend not to think of it as muchy simply because its used today, just
as
>its described.
>
>
>Sommers, Confirmation #23263
>"Hey, this is better than actually getting some work done."

Actually, the Barret 'Light Fifty' M82A1 fires a 12.7 x 99 (.50 Browning)
Which is different than the Barret Model 121 (which doesn't have any
calibre listed ... I /thought/ I read that used ~ 121 mm oh well). The
Barret M82A1, BTW, has an overall length of 1.549 m (barrel length of 737
mm). If you want something more like the FoF Barret, try the Gepard M3
... Fires 14.5 x 114 mm Soviet, overall length of 1.880 m, barrel length
of 1.480 m. On second thought, this might be more effective than the FoF
Barret! :) Of course, it weighs 20 kg and looks like a man-portable tank
cannon!

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:24:08 -0500

Message no. 49 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:32:54 -0400 Craig J Wilhelm Jr
<craigjwjr@*********.NET> writes:
>From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
<SNIP Barret 121 stuff>
>>I tend not to think of it as muchy simply because its used today, just
as
>>its described.
>
> I meant munchy because of it's damage code. Considering an HMG
(.50cal
>in my and the US Army's opinion) "only" does 10S. Where's the other 4
power
>and 1 wound level coming from? It says something about custom ammo, what
>kind of "customising" could lead to such a big leap in power? Simply hot
>loading it would be enough. It'd have to be some kind of explosive
round,
>and unless it uses some kind of mini shaped charge warhead, it wouldn't
be
>considered armor piercing. And I mean real, hard armor piercing.
> As for the RL Barret, I know all about it, I own one (the bolt
action,
>not the auto-loader).
>--
>Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
<SNIP Sig>

Well, a HMG is a FA only weapon so that makes the damage code (10+10+4)D
= 24D. Even MMG would have a "final" damage code (before factoring any
successes) of 23D and a LMG (on FA) would be 21D. Now the Barret's 14D
doesn't look so bad, does it? BTW, by "custom ammo", I think they meant
that no other gun used the same ammo as the barret, nothing more.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject:	Re: OICW
Date:	Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:27:44 -0500

Message no. 50 On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:

> I meant munchy because of it's damage code. Considering an HMG (.50cal
> in my and the US Army's opinion) "only" does 10S. Where's the other 4 power
> and 1 wound level coming from? It says something about custom ammo, what
> kind of "customising" could lead to such a big leap in power? Simply hot
> loading it would be enough. It'd have to be some kind of explosive round,
> and unless it uses some kind of mini shaped charge warhead, it wouldn't be
> considered armor piercing. And I mean real, hard armor piercing.

Well i have read in a couple of places that they have some custom loaded
rounds for sniping. The have an incendiary tip, Explosive filled
prefragmented body, and a Tugsnian Carbide(sp? the stuff they make APDS
rounds out of besides depleated uranium) penetrator rod down the center.
So you get improved chances of setting the target on fire or minor
shrapnel effects and a nice small hole straight through the target. Now
how commonly is this round issued compaired to a regular FMJ i have no
clue! :)

Thomas Price
AKA The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu

Message no. 51 From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>

>Well, a HMG is a FA only weapon so that makes the damage code (10+10+4)D
>= 24D. Even MMG would have a "final" damage code (before factoring any
>successes) of 23D and a LMG (on FA) would be 21D. Now the Barret's 14D
>doesn't look so bad, does it? BTW, by "custom ammo", I think they meant
>that no other gun used the same ammo as the barret, nothing more.

Okay, there is the full auto factor, but that don't quite cut it in my
estimation. Just because every HMG printed to date (AFAIK) is full auto,
does not preclude the future existance of an SS, SA or BF HMG. But otherwise
you have a minor point. You know, I've played Shadowrun from day one and
hadn't noticed that every single MMG's and HMG's is full auto only until you
mentioned it... Oh well. ;)
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

Message no. 52 From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>

>Just like we never used 25mm Bushmaster cannon against Iraqi troops? Or
>A-10 30 mm GAU?

Well, if they dead, they can't complain... :p

>Well, technically that wasn't a war, that was a peacekeeping action.

Technicalities: The root of all great bloodbaths... :)

>Too bad those corps never signed the Hague convention ...

It's not too bad as far as they're concerned! :D
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

Message no. 53 On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:52:49 -0400 Craig J Wilhelm Jr
<craigjwjr@*********.NET> writes:
>From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
>>Well, a HMG is a FA only weapon so that makes the damage code
(10+10+4)D
>>= 24D. Even MMG would have a "final" damage code (before factoring any
>>successes) of 23D and a LMG (on FA) would be 21D. Now the Barret's 14D
>>doesn't look so bad, does it? BTW, by "custom ammo", I think they
meant
>>that no other gun used the same ammo as the barret, nothing more.

> Okay, there is the full auto factor, but that don't quite cut it in
my
>estimation. Just because every HMG printed to date (AFAIK) is full auto,
>does not preclude the future existance of an SS, SA or BF HMG. But
otherwise
>you have a minor point. You know, I've played Shadowrun from day one and
>hadn't noticed that every single MMG's and HMG's is full auto only until
you
>mentioned it... Oh well. ;)
>--
>Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
<SNIP>

Heh. Well. I think every medium/heavy machine gun printed for SR will
be full-auto since in the entry for machine gun in SR2 says "These
autofire weapons..." That means full-auto, doesn't it? Regardless, the
reason I brought up FA above was because I was proposing that machine
guns get there effectiveness from a hail of bullets rather than from a
single massive slug. I mean I haven't heard you complain about the
Ranger Arms SM-3 or the Walther WA-2100 which both have damage codes of
14S. (part of your original complaint was 4 "extra" points of power over
the HMG.) Now compare their stats. The Barret is a little more
expensive than the Ranger Arms SM-3 unless you factor in Street Index
(5!), then it becomes much more expensive then the SM-3 and almost as
expensive as the Walther. It has a higher ammo capacity (14 versus 6 for
the SM-3 and 10 for the Walther.) which perhaps should be reduced for
balance (maybe 4?). However it weighs more than both of the other rifles
put together! Additionally, getting one is rather difficult as is
finding ammo for it. Also, don't forget that the Street Index for the
weapon also applies to the ammo. That means that every shot is costing
you 100 nuyen! (200 per 10 rounds times SI of 5) Compare that to getting
APDS for a regular sniper rifle. (27 nuyen per shot.) Lastly, you can't
disassemble the Barret (versus 3 Complex actions to dis/assemble the
SM-3; The Walther doesn't have anything listed about dis/assembling it.)
... Just try to sneak that 6 foot long monster in and out of sniping
spot. The Barret has its disadvantages, and despite the damage code on
the Barret, the Ranger Arms SM-3 (or the Walther if it can be
dis/assembled quickly.) with APDS ammo is more appropriate for most
Shadowrunny sniping ops.

<Looks up>
"Boy, I talk alot don't I? I'm done." :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Message no. 54 From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>

>Heh. Well. I think every medium/heavy machine gun printed for SR will
>be full-auto since in the entry for machine gun in SR2 says "These
>autofire weapons..." That means full-auto, doesn't it?

The term is sometimes (but not very often) used to refer to semi-auto
weapons as well, but that's neither here nor there. Besides, I /really/
don't feel like getting into semantics if you know what I mean... ;)

>Regardless, the
>reason I brought up FA above was because I was proposing that machine
>guns get there effectiveness from a hail of bullets rather than from a
>single massive slug.

I tend to agree for the most part. But I'm talking about single rounds
here. There really isn't anything to stop you from popping a single round in
the chamber of an HMG and using it as an impromptu sniper rifle, or if you
only have one round left on your belt. If such a situation arises, the
bullet still does "only" 10S as compared to a Barrets 14D. Or would YOU for
some reason lower the damage code? I know I wouldn't.
As for the other sniper rifles, again I have no problem with their
stats. I've always calked their damage codes up to specialty
explosive/hollow point/and\or black talon type thing.

Actually, now that I think of it. Maybe the other sniper rifles are of
the .50 caliber variety with some form of explosive/hollow point/and\or
black talon type ammo? And perhaps the Barret is something along the lines
of a depleted uranium 15-20mm semi-auto man-packed cannon, or some-such
nastiness?
Perhaps it's something to think about... Or perhaps it's just 4:30 in
the AM and I'm delirious...

>I mean I haven't heard you complain about the
>Ranger Arms SM-3 or the Walther WA-2100 which both have damage codes of
>14S. (part of your original complaint was 4 "extra" points of power over
>the HMG.)

I wasn't really complaining (although I admit it looked like it. I'm
funny that way... :). I just had a problem with the barrets power in
relation, and only in relation to an HMG. From a GM's/role-playing
perspective, I have no problem. I think a big ass, overpriced sniper rifle
should be deadly as hell and scary-to-think-about-it-being-pointed-at-you,
stuff of nightmares type thing.
I guess it boils down to a piss poor choice of words on my part, and for
the confusion I (may?) caused, I apologize.
--
Craig "Knee Deep in the Blood of Swine" Wilhelm
Confuscious Say,
"Man who have hand in pocket not always jiggle change..."
UIN: 1864690
-------------BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
v3.12
GAT/$ d- s+:+ a- C+++ U--- P+ L- E-- W++ N++
o K- w+ O> !M-- !V PS+ PE Y+ PGP++ t--- 5+++
X-- R++ tv b++ DI-- D+(Q2++) G++ e++ h* r y++**
--------------END GEEK CODE BLOCK--------------

Message no. 55 > >Heh. Well. I think every medium/heavy machine gun printed for SR will
> >be full-auto since in the entry for machine gun in SR2 says "These
> >autofire weapons..." That means full-auto, doesn't it?
>
> The term is sometimes (but not very often) used to refer to semi-auto
> weapons as well, but that's neither here nor there. Besides, I /really/
> don't feel like getting into semantics if you know what I mean... ;)

My dad has called any semi-auto weapon an "automatic" for years. (Not that
I'm trying to defend the practice. Just giving it as an example).

Message no. 56 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > Actually, from the Popular Science article (months old now, btw), it was
> >NOT primarily a direct fire weapon; the %500 percent increase was not to
> >accuracy, but to EFEECTIVENESS< i.e., %50 disabling shots. The big bonus was
> >you could depend on close hits, and do things like range your burst to a piece
> >of cover, then aim slightly above that cover. BOOM- small grenade explodes 5
> >feet over enemies head, taking him out of that fight. I say small grenades
> >because that's what they were described as, not as cannon rounds of any sort.
>
> It was not described as a small grenade in the popular science article; it
> was a fused airburst HE round.

A bullet shaped grenade, in other words :) . At least that's how I
picture SR mini-grenades.

Bira

Message no. 57 Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> > Make the thing as a "Recoiless Rifle" type of weapon. If it has not
> >enough
> >recoil to change accuracy, it's probaly a SS weapon. Maybe 10S to 12S,
> >not
> >much more than that.
>
> It's not a recoilless rifle, its a 20mm rifle with full recoil. It happens
> to have an airburst timer. I still think of a direct fire weapon with a
> range of 1000 meters as an assault cannon, not a grenade launcher. A
> grenade launcher would have to be aimed and fired indirectly (i.e. at an
> angle) to reach this range. Also, it doesn't appear to be single shot,
> although the magazine is 6 rounds, it seems to be semiautomatic.

Big ammo, really explosive, direct fire, semi-auto... looks like
a SR grande launcher to me :) .

Bira

Message no. 58 Craig J Wilhelm Jr wrote:
>
> You know, this just reminds me of something. This weapon couldn't have
> been desigened, or intended at all to be a direct-fire weapon. Or alteast
> one to be used in the anti-personell role. The Hague Convention prohibits
> the use of explosive directfire rounds for use against personell in time of
> war... It's considered "inhumane".
> So I guess this is just as you've described Mongoose, basically just a
> small, really fast grenade. Not quite as cool as I had origionally thought,
> but I can find many more uses for this than I could for a 40mm grenade
> considering it's flatter trajectory, I could put it right where I need it
> instead of having to guess fire arcs.

This is a SR grenade launcher for me... :) . See, real life hasn't
ran over SR in all weapons :) .

Bira

Message no. 59 Craig--

> The term is sometimes (but not very often) used to refer to semi-au=
to
> weapons as well, but that's neither here nor there. Besides, I /really/=

> don't feel like getting into semantics if you know what I mean... ;)

As I recall, the term "auto" for handguns like the Colt M1911 .45=

caliber comes from the term "automatic loader" or "autoloader". Later,
wi=
th
the Maxim and the first SMG's, they made a distinction between the
"semi-auto" handgun and the "full-auto" SMG / machine gun.
There's the semantics that you didn't want to get into... <g>

Shadowmage

Message no. 60 > > Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
> > modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
> > rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
> To be proper the Barret fires .50 caliber rounds. I'm
> not sure what that equates to but the gun is officially chambered for
> .50 cal.

12.7mm=.50 cal
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

Message no. 61 > > Another 12.7mm reference is the Barrett(sp?) in FoF. It's essentially
> > modeled after a similier rifle IRL, an' the IRL one fires 12.7mm
> > rounds. The SR rifle does 14D.
> Yeah, but that thing uses some kind of hybrid explosive APDS type of
> ammo. And besides, I'm of the opinion that that gun is mildly munchy.

Hybrid explosive APDS ammo? All it uses is APDS. As for being munchy,
watch the movie Navy Seals. Pay attention to the guy who everyone
refers to as God.
--
Bai Shen
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
http://www.series2000.com/users/baishen
UIN 3543257 (Don't ask to join if you aren't going to send me anything.)

Mailing List Logs for

Further Reading

Disclaimer